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007_SuperCoupe
02-17-2003, 02:58 PM
I'm not sure if anyone has done this, or even thought about it, so here it goes. I have been plagued with how to get the benefits of a FMIC (with a removed AC condensor) without actually removing the AC. This thought pattern has taken me down a slightly different path for a quest for cooler intake temps. I first looked at other ICs to include shapes and mounting positions. My first thought was to have a short, but wide IC and mount it just below the radiator. Two benefits to that are fresh air reaching the IC and you don't clutter the front of your engine up as with the MP FMIC. And it is cheaper. I didn't stay with this though for long, as I wanted to add a cooling fan to the IC to increase efficiency. That led me to a horizontal IC. I like the concept of that as I can get a larger IC, still mount it below the AC condensor and radiator. It is big enough that I can mount multiple (2 or 3) IC fans (the 8" variety that pushes 800 cfm) on and still be well below the cost of a MP FMIC.

In my searching though, I ran across a company that makes an electrically cooled IC. Having some experience in engineering, I am aware that there are substances out there that when stimulated with an electrical current can get cold or hot. I am guessing that this IC design incorporates this technology. They advertise that at the flip of a switch, you can super chill your intake. They say that the core temp of the IC can reach 0*. They don't specify *F or *C, but either way, that is still cold. The downfall, of course, is the price starting at slightly higher than the MP FMIC. I am contacting the company today to get more info on this alternative. They don't have a web site, so searching the net won't work. I've already tried it!

Anyway, just a couple thoughts on ICs. Has anyone had experience with either? And do you think these are areas that could be looked into further? Sorry for the length! Any input and opinions are welcomed! Thanks.

J57ltr
02-17-2003, 04:08 PM
Are you referring to Thermoelectric coolers (Peltizer modules)? If so look on the non tech forum for IC ideas I think it was.

JEff

007_SuperCoupe
02-17-2003, 04:39 PM
I saw that post a while back. It is a similar idea, but different. There is no external container holding 'coolant.' It is all self contained in the IC itself. You simply switch the button and the core temp drops to -40*F! (I called them just a few minutes ago) The intake temp initially is 15* and then rises to approx 35*. It was designed specifically for the drag type races. I got information sent and I'll see what can be applied, if anything, to the SC. So long as the IC can stay at a mean temp of about 40* then I don't think that frost from condensation should be a problem. That is the only thing that I'm not sure about. But after talking to them, they seem interested in developing an IC for our applications. I think that I'd be doing most of the R&D to get it to fit with all the appropriate tubing and mounting brackets though. That is, if I decide to go with their product. I just have to find a place here that can do madrel bends...

J57ltr
02-17-2003, 04:45 PM
how does it work?

007_SuperCoupe
02-17-2003, 04:55 PM
I didn't get too detailed on the phone with him, but it is totally self contained. What he would sell me is the IC, power cables, power relay, temp guage and the switch for inside the car. It is a "charging" type system too. He says that he turns it on a few minutes before a race and for the first 1-3 seconds the air temp is at 15* and then rises to 35* or so for the remainder of the race. I asked about a compressor and the such, but he assured me that there isn't one. It is all electrical within the IC. And it is guaranteed that the IC under "normal" driving conditions reduces the intake temp to below ambient temp. "Guarantee" might be a strong word, but he told me that the IC would "keep" the intake temp down below ambient. But like I said, I didn't talk long with him. I simply requested literature on all the applications they have now (3 to be exact) with dimensions and tech data such as flow rate and pressure loss. Not sure though if those things have been tested, so I may not get any data in that area. As I get the info, I'll definately keep it posted here.

J57ltr
02-17-2003, 05:02 PM
Do you have a website or something? As you know it takes power to make power Iíll be real interested to see how it works.

Jeff

007_SuperCoupe
02-17-2003, 05:07 PM
No web site yet. Just a phone # as of now. E-mail me (smalone@neb.rr.com) and I'll send you the # if you want to call them as well. They are located in NM, so it is Mountain Time if you're keeping track.

Nettlesd
02-17-2003, 05:49 PM
For those interested, this company has an ad in the current MM&FF magazine. I'll bring in the magazine and post the information about the "Killer Chiller". Starting cost is $1,500.

J57ltr
02-17-2003, 05:53 PM
March issue?

007_SuperCoupe
02-17-2003, 06:00 PM
April issue. The add is towards the back (about 10 pages or so from the end). There is no platform for the SC yet, but with interest, I'm guessing that they will come up with something. Or one of us will help them out with the installation R&D. Hopefully by Thurs or Fri I'll get the info from them.

JJanney
02-17-2003, 06:23 PM
Bah, for 1500, might as well by the MP FMIC

007_SuperCoupe
02-17-2003, 06:33 PM
Yeah, but the MP FMIC even if it were 100% efficient, would only lower the intake temp to the ambient temp. And because it is tucked behind the condenser, the "ambient" temp cannot be achieved. I'd take 1500 to cool the intake to 35* any day over 1500 for the MP FMIC. But that is just my humble opinion. I won't pay 1500 though to get an intercooler that cools only to 10-20* above the ambient temp. Like I said though, that my $$ and that's how I'd spend it.

93 Mark VIII
02-17-2003, 07:05 PM
Yeah, but the MP FMIC even if it were 100% efficient, would only lower the intake temp to the ambient temp. And because it is tucked behind the condenser, the "ambient" temp cannot be achieved. I'd take 1500 to cool the intake to 35* any day over 1500 for the MP FMIC. But that is just my humble opinion. I won't pay 1500 though to get an intercooler that cools only to 10-20* above the ambient temp. Like I said though, that my $$ and that's how I'd spend it.

the difference is the MP cools the intake charge all of the time. It's always on, and always working. The idea you talked about only lasts a brief period, and then needs charging. If you are going for somthing like that, nitrous would be cheaper and just achieve intake temps just as cool.

007_SuperCoupe
02-17-2003, 07:38 PM
The actual design is for drag racing, but has not been tested in an every drivability situation. It is always on in the regards that it functions as a regular air to air intercooler under normal driving conditions. I was told that it keeps the intake temps to below ambient. I'm not defending them, but merely stating what I was told. At the flip of a switch, it gets very cold. So, dollar for dollar, an IC that is just as efficient as the MP FMIC but can get the intake temps to 15* for races and it sells for the same rough price as the MP FMIC sound pretty good to me. You just turn on the super cold temps when you want to.

I'm not sure what kind of drain it will have on the electrical system, but I'm sure it will be somewhat significant. It may require the use of a larger alternator. I don't know that for sure yet. That is why I am getting the info from them.

93 Mark VIII
02-17-2003, 08:16 PM
sounds intresting, but as always the proof will make or break the product. It would have to be quite an efficient air to air intercooler to cool the car as much as the MP unit around town, I have my doubts about that. Keep us updated.

JJanney
02-17-2003, 08:17 PM
Oh, so its cooling is comparable to the Magnum Powers IC, and it cools when you flip the switch? That would be something to think about.

007_SuperCoupe
02-17-2003, 08:33 PM
The $1599 price tag for this IC system is complete, just like the MP system. However, it is not for the SC. Of course, it is for the Mustang. Once a kit is developed, I'm sure that the price will remain around that $1600 price tag, for everything. There just has to be some R&D done to get the installation kit finalized. I'm confident that with enough interest from people who want to upgrade their SCs they will have a kit available.

David Neibert
02-17-2003, 09:19 PM
There just has to be some R&D done to get the installation kit finalized.

And that is the problem....there just are not enough SCs on the road to justify the R&D cost and no matter how many people you get saying they would buy it...the majority of those people will dissapear when it's time to put the money down.

David

007_SuperCoupe
02-17-2003, 09:57 PM
I don't expect every one to share my enthusiasm for products that are potential bolt-ons for our cars. The simple matter of fact is that this IC may very well work for ours cars. It may just be a simple project of a mounting bracket and tubing. Then again it may not be. I for one am always looking for applications that are already developed and can be adapted to our cars. Just because it is not designed specifically for our cars doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it. I will explore it in its entirety. If it works or not has yet to be seen. I'm keeping an optomistic view of it though. But hey, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Mike8675309
02-17-2003, 10:53 PM
The problem with silicon cooling devices is that it takes a huge amount of power to move the heat from one side of the plate to the other plate. And the hotter one side gets the harder it is to move the heat.

So they have efficiency issues, and I'm not sure how the electrical system could handle the load. Especially to provide those huge cooling capacities for a limited time.

ponysc
02-17-2003, 11:30 PM
Very interesting...

I'll have to look at the april issue, didn't know it'd be out before next mo.

Since it hasn't been tested in daily driving, I wonder how long this "coolant" lasts. Using an electrical charge I'd think it wouldn't last forever.

I like the idea of the short and wide IC.

Chris

David Neibert
02-18-2003, 12:46 AM
Sam,

I totaly agree with you about keeping an open mind and adapting mods from other cars to the SC. I'm always looking for ways to do the same thing.

A good example of that is the propane injection system I have installed on my car that was intended for use on a twin turbo Dodge Stealth. The system functions fine, my engine just doesn't like it...runs pig rich and looses power.

I'll try more tuning and a flip chip this summer. I'm also interested in ways to get more cooling from the intercooler, such as c02 or nitrous cooling systems.

David

007_SuperCoupe
02-18-2003, 01:21 AM
Right now, I'm leaning most to a horizontal IC, but found this other type of IC just by chance. I believe with the horizontal (ground clearance watched) you get better air flow from under the car, and it frees up room above to get a wider radiator. Just some thoughts at the drawing board right now. I'll look close at the specs of this new type of IC, though to see what the catch is. Obviously, nothing is 100% efficient (much to our dismay) so being electric, the power has to come from somewhere. I'm just not sure how much of a strain it will put on the electrical system. It does sound very tempting at face value though. If the info isn't in the literature, I should ask about the current pull, flow rating (I'm sure is adequate), pressure loss. What other things do I need to ask about. I'm tired right now and not thinking all that clear. (Read, "My wife is waiting for me in he other room.") Let me know of anything else I need to ask about.

Nettlesd
02-18-2003, 01:29 PM
Here's the information:

Introducing the revolutionary Killer Chiller. The latest in intercooling technology. System will keep intake below ambient and with a flip of a switch you can super chill your intake! (core temp. can see 0 and below)

Complete systems starting at $1599.

No ice, no water, fluids, no gasses, chemicals.

Systems available for Mustangs GT and Cobra 94-on other applications available, please inquire.


Kincaid Performance Inc.
Albuquerque, NM
505-275-2665

J57ltr
02-18-2003, 03:45 PM
I spoke with the guy a minute ago. The device is a thermoelectric cooler. It draws 36 amps, "charge" time is 3 minutes, about 40 seconds of cooled air with a 12 minute recycle time. It is used b4 the supercharger.

It is the same thing I was going to try a few years ago, that I mentioned in another thread.

I finish posting later.

Jeff

onyour6
02-18-2003, 07:29 PM
Sounds like money is your main concern, if so you need to add
all the costs for the manufacturing of the cold air tubes and hardware, also sounds like they will have a complicated routing design . These expenses could run several hundred $$$, adding that to the $1500.00 for the core. In the end you may have a lot
more time and money in a system that will not work as hoped.
Thats why you pay $1500.00 for a system like MP's the R&D
takes time and money.

J57ltr
02-18-2003, 08:16 PM
Basically this a thermoelectric cooler but with a slight variance. He claims that the cold side of the system is cooled down to Ė40 deg (at extremely cold temps they are the same, -40F = -40C). There is only one way to do this and that is to stack the thermoelectric modules in series mechanically. This means that the hot side of one thermoelectric is placed to the cold side of the next. Then several of these stacked modules are placed onto a heatsink evenly spaced. The modules are sandwiched between another heatsink so that there is a hot side and a cold side. This allows a 140 temperature differential between the 2 sides. And they will pull the rated differential. Last week I had my system down to 5.7 F this took about 40 minutes and is less than optimal.

Thermoelectric cooling devices are not made of silicon, they are bismuth telluride. Efficiency issues ? This system can be switched on and off during normal driving to keep the inlet temps below ambient (thatís inlet b4 the supercharger) and can stay on for increased cooling b4 a run. The stock IC remains untouched since it installs b4 the throttle body. Iím not pimping this dudes stuff, $1600 is steep. I could make and sell the same thing for a little less than a grand. I have almost all the parts to build the same thing, Iím only missing the larger modules to cascade for the increased temp differential. I wasnít given all the information here I am guessing on some of the things that they are doing based on the information that I have collected over the years and the experimentation I have done. These guys are using an aircooled heatsink on the hot side that limits the amount of time that the device can be on. With a 36amp draw this would be about the limit I would run on a stock charging system. With a larger battery and a higher output alternator more draw could be possible.

Jeff

93 Mark VIII
02-18-2003, 08:30 PM
why cool before the blower, All the heat is generated in the eaton? Sure it will make some difference, but that's not where you want to cool the air.

Brian

J57ltr
02-18-2003, 08:43 PM
It might make a huge difference. Roots blowers heat up the air about 18 deg per psi.

So at 15psi that's about 270deg above ambient. So on a 90 deg day that's about 360 deg. If you cool the inlet temp to 60 deg then you have a exit temp of 330 and that's b4 the stock IC. They said that's it's actually much lower than that. Then since the device is so cold condensation forms and gets sucked into the engine and acts like water injection. Here in Texas I could make water out of thin air it's so humid (for real!)Putting it after would probably work better, but I'm not sure of too many variables to say. So that's about a 3% increase in HP. I'm sure that those #ís are conservative. They also claimed a 60hp increase on a Mustang (donít remember which model) with a centrifugal supercharger.

Jeff

David Neibert
02-19-2003, 10:31 AM
Jeff,

What method is used to remove the heat from the air. Is there some sort of heat exchanger that incoming air passes through before the MAF ? Also, how would it ever get cold if air is always flowing over the surface ?

I too am having trouble with the concept of cooling before the supercharger, why not cool after it and just before entering the engine. With the system your describing, I don't see how the air temp can be below ambient. If it managed to stay colder than outside temps after the supercharger, then the stock intercooler and IC pipes would warm it back up.

It is however very interesting, so please tell us more.

David

XR7 Dave
02-19-2003, 10:57 AM
I think cooling the inlet air and then routing it through the stock IC tubing ect would be somewhat counterproductive. This system would work best with an inverted blower that feeds directly into the motor. By doing so you eliminate the pressure drop accross the stock IC and increase the efficiency of the system. This would reduce the amount of HP required to spin the blower at any given manifold pressure, giving you more HP with less internal stress on the motor.

93 Mark VIII
02-19-2003, 02:05 PM
I am working on a pretty neat prototype liquid intercooler. It won't be done for another few weeks, and I don't have any plans to manufacture a kit. But when it's done and dynoed, I'll provide more info to share ;)

J57ltr
02-20-2003, 01:57 AM
David,

The design in question is a thermoelectric cooler. Itís the same principal as the Igloo cooler/warmer that you can plug into a car cigarette lighter. These devices use electricity to move (pump) heat from one side of the device to the other side. As we all know there is no such thing as cold, just absence of heat, so as heat is removed from the heatsink that side gets very cold and heat is removed from the air passing over it. How much heat? That depends on the surface area of the heatsink the time the air is in there and just how cold you can get the heatsink. Basically it does the same function as the evaporator core for your AC only it is the incoming air to the engine.

I agree that a better job would be to remove heat after the stock IC b4 it enters the engine. Max operating temperatures for TECís are between 150C-200C (302F-392F) so adding the device after the IC would probably be over the limit. I seem to remember that the solder was the limiting factor.

Cougaí Dave,

I agree. Last night I was thinking that for a race only system you could remove everything from the blower top to the lower manifold adapter. Then block off the bypass. Make a one piece SC top with the outlet running back the windshield and dropping straight down into the manifold. A one-piece affair, four bolts for the ďtopĒ and 3 for the lower manifold (extra long of course). The same type of device but turned upside down so that the heatsink fins also act as a diffuser. It might still work as long as it was drag only (only short high temps).

Brian,

I would like to hear about your idea, email me when you get a chance.

Jeff

93 Mark VIII
02-20-2003, 03:52 AM
ya got mail!