Running out of ideas, REALLY NEED HELP!

Running out of ideas, REALLY NEED HELP! (think it's EGR related)

Ok, here’s the deal folks. Now before anyone says anything about this not being an SC, I know. But there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who may be able to help me. I could really use some suggestions here. I swapped the splitport 3.8L from a 2000 Mustang into my 1994 Thunderbird. I installed DIS and I also used the 4R70W from the mustang. I had the car running, had it dynotuned, and everything was wonderful except that it didn’t have first gear. The car sat for a week before I could work on it. I had decided that the reason I didn’t have first gear was due to the fact that I didn’t repin the transmission connector when I changed transmissions. So without starting the car beforehand, I repined the connector as per the tech article, adjusted the MLPS (transmission range sensor), and cleaned the MAF. I tried to start the car, it would run for about 3 seconds then sputter and die. I tried using a spare MAF, a different MLPS (also adjusted it back to the way it was), tried pinning the transmission connector back the other way, even tried a spare EEC. Nothing changed.
At this point I assumed that the fuel had picked up condensation from sitting. I replaced the fuel pump (with a 190 lph), the filter, the fuel pressure regulator, and blew out the fuel lines. Still didn’t change anything.
This brings me to where I’m at now. Here are the next two things I think it could be:

O2 sensors – I bought the car with blown headgaskets, hence the engine swap. I know that O2 sensors are known to go bad after headgaskets go. I just didn’t think it would be them because it ran fine a week earlier, then all of a sudden it doesn’t.

Vacuum leak – It acts like the fuel injectors are being shut off, or there is a BIG vacuum leak somewhere. It is possible to keep the engine running for a little bit by playing with the throttle, but it pops and runs terribly.

Does anyone see anything that I might be missing? I was also thinking about the IAC. It just doesn’t make any sense that it ran great, then a week later I can’t keep the car running. I’m really thinking that it’s a sensor, because for the first 2-3 seconds the car runs fine, then it seems like the EEC sees something going wrong and goes crazy. Sorry for the long post, PLEASE HELP ME! It’s been months since I’ve heard the car run right.

Thanks,
Rod

Using a 98+ 4r70w you need to change the torque converter solenoid (TCC) and MLPS to your year vehicle. The TCC has different sensor outputs between the years, hopefully you did not fry your EEC. THis will require you to drop the pan and swap out the sensors. You will have to trim your 94 TCC connector to look like the 2000 TCC connector. All the other sensors should work fine. Check the TCCOA articles about the 4r70w transmission differences between years. Pages 2 and 16 cover most of the points.

TCCOA article


Also post what wires you changed pins for. There is an updated pinout, I will try to post later tonight.

How does this have to do with the trans?

I dont claim to know much, but I was wondering if the car is sitting in park and it wont run after a little bit, what does the trans have to do with it?

Just nosey.


The O2 sensors being fouled may be a good place to start, though. The O2s dont "kick in" until they warm up and if the car runs OK for under a min (cold start = 45 seconds for O2 read) and then EEC talks to O2 and O2 pukes, maybe thats it.

I have never heard of anyone doing that kind of engine install, that is really neat...What do you hope to accomplish with this modification?

I have dealt with all sorts of wierd and unknown problems on both my SCs and in trial and error I have figured them out. If you dont get anywhere and have any more details, I would contribute what I can...

- mike

CHeck out MTCforum.com , they have alot of good info about the swap.

Here is what you should change in the wiring harness:



the pinout is:
Pin Number Circuit Circuit Function
1 — NOT USED
2 359 (GY/R) Signal Return
3 473 (R/LB) Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Solenoid
4 361 (R) Vehicle Power
5 923 (O/BK) Transmission Fluid Temperature (TFT) Input
6 925 (W/Y) Electronic Pressure Control (EPC) Solenoid
7 237 (O/Y) Shift Solenoid 1
8 315 (P/O) Shift Solenoid 2
9 — NOT USED
10 — NOT USED

And for the internal harness or circuit board:



1 — Not Used
2 — Signal Return-Transmission Fluid Temperature (TFT)
3 — Torque Converter Clutch (TCC)
4 — Vehicle Power-Shift Solenoid
5 — Transmission Fluid Temperature (TFT)
6 — Electronic Pressure Control (EPC)
7 — SSA/SS1
8 — SSB/SS2
9 — Not Used
10 — Not Used

Here is the pinout for a 94

Prevent the car from going into closed loop. This can be done several ways, but one of the easiest it to unplug the O2 sensors. The car does not need them to run. This will help you verify whether going into closed loop is what is killing it.

Open loop sensors are only the MAF, ECT, and I think ACT. It kinda sounds like a MAF problem. I would not only swap out the MAF but also test for MAF voltage at the EEC.

Other idea is ignition related. Are the plugs fouled or maybe the firing order wrong, maybe a wire or two loose?

Could be a vaccum leak, did you have the intake manifold off?

I did change the MLPS to the 94 when I swapped in the transmission. However, I was told that I wouldn't have to do anything inside the transmission as long as I repinned the connector going to the transmission. It doesn't make sense that the TCC was working fine with the EEC for awhile then all of a sudden won't work with it at all.

I don't have my pinout diagram with me, but I'll try to post later tonight which pins I switched. I basically followed page 16 of Ford Transmissions 101 on Tccoa.

As far as why I did this swap, I had the engine sitting in my shop and I bought the car with blown headgaskets. It seemed logical, and nobody had done it before.

CougarSC, I really appreciate all of your help, especially those wiring diagrams. Although I'm hoping that you're wrong about having to open up the transmission (I already dropped the pan once, I could have done it then had I known).

If the problem is transmission related, how big are the drawbacks to switching back to a 94 transmission? I'm kind of thinking about it at this point.

XR7 Dave, I'll try that tonight. That's a very good idea. I really hope it's just one of the open loop sensors. I really don't think it's ignition related, the plugs are fine and the wires are tight. The wires were not taken off since the last time it ran, so they're definitely in the right order. I haven't had the intake off in quite some time, and all of the intake bolts are tight.

Thanks for your help guys, please keep the suggestions coming.

The TCC is the one of the main parts you have to change out when installing a 98+ 4r70w trans. I have done the swap. The 94 TCC has an impedance of 1 to 3 ohms. and the 96+ TCC has an impedance of 10-16 ohms. So using the wrong one could give some problems.

This is from MN12performance article:

TCC solenoids are not interchangeable. You must use the correct resistance solenoid for year and type of vehicle.

· TCC solenoid - 1 to 3 ohms (Fits 1992 to 1995 except 1995 Lincoln Town Car, Grand Marquis, Ford Crown Victoria) F2VY-7G136-A

· TCC solenoid - 10 to 16 ohms (Fits 1995 Lincoln Town Car, Grand Marquis, Ford Crown Victoria and all 1996 and up models) F7AZ-7G136-A

TCC (Torque Converter Solenoid) - 2 different ones!
1 to 3 ohms - F2VY-7G136-A (1992-1995) Note:This part # F2VY-7G136-A is still the current number.
10 to 16 ohms - F7AP-7G136-AA (1996-up valve body only)
(If your vehicle is pre 1996 then use the F2VY-7G136-A TCC solenoid.) If you are unsure check the TCC with an OHM meter. The 1-3 ohms solenoid should be about 1.3 ohms and the 10-16 ohm solenoid should be about 10.9 ohms. The 1-3 ohms TCC has a Black connector and the 10-16 ohms TCC has a WHITE connector.

article

Didn't have much time at all to work on the car today, but I did have a chance to pull one of the spark plugs immediately after trying to start it. It was completely saturated with fuel, so it's either getting WAY to much fuel, the ignition timing is all of a sudden WAY off, or something is shutting off the ignition all together. Tomorrow I'm going to check the EEC by putting it back in the car it originally came from (see if I fried the EEC). If the EEC's still good, then I'll try unplugging the O2's so that the car stays in open loop and see what happens. I have a feeling that the computer is fried, most likely due to the different TCC. I wish I had known that the TCC was different, all I was told before was that I needed to repin the main transmission connector.

if you don't get it running soon, I'll come down and try to help out. I may have a super coupe EEC I can steal to test.

BTW, I don't work for fordchip

Brian

Hey cougarsc, I have some questions. I saw that you posted the internal wiring diagram. Do I need to change any of that? I thought that was the reason I repinned the connector that plugs into the transmission. Also, how do I switch the TCC with a 95 and earlier model? I was reading the tech article on tccoa, and from what I read I would have to change all the internal electronic pieces. From page 16 of Ford Transmissions 101:

"The connectors on the solenoids are different, so when switching from one to the other, rather than changing the pinout on the harness, you must change all the internal electronic pieces."

Also, if you don't mind, take a look at page 6 under "Can I put a later model transmission in my car?"

Ford Transmissions 101 - Page 6

It didn't mention the TCC, that's why I never knew anything about it. What exactly does the TCC do? Doesn't it lock up the torque convertor? Would it be possible to drive the car and make good power on the dyno without the TCC working?

I'd like to remedy this whole problem ASAP. I was relying on this car as my daily driver, and I needed it about 4 months ago. My other daily driver is just about dead.

Thanks

I apologize Brian. I would really appreciate the help. I'll be here all week (this is my spring break, what a great vacation). Just give me a call when you get a chance.

Thanks

Don't change anything with the internal harness. I just included that so you can check and double check with the pin swapping in the outer harness.

Once you have the 2000 TCC, compare with the 94 TCC. Now make the 94 look like the 2000 TCC. You will have to trim the plastic down maybe 1/4-inch, so that the 2000 internal harness will fit the 94 TCC.
I used a dremel an carefully cut the plastic and not the 2 pins.

Also becareful on removing the internal harness, it just snaps in at the different sensors and solenoids.

I know I keep asking you question after question, but I added more questions to my last post while you were posting your reply cougarsc. I'll try to quit bugging you for tonight, I promise.

Okay, I read your questions. This statement :

"The connectors on the solenoids are different, so when switching from one to the other, rather than changing the pinout on the harness, you must change all the internal electronic pieces."

Is when you don't want to change the outer harness pinouts and you want to reuse your 94 inner harness. Then you will need to change out all the sensor/solenoids.

Either way will get it running. But I preferred to use updated inner wiring harness, which is a circuit board type. Also, you get the benefit of 3 or 4 newer sensors, minus the TCC solenoid.

Thankyou very much.

Have you run any codes?

From the manuals: TCC is used to control the apply and release of the torque converter.


But I would not dyno yet. You could burn your clutches in your 2000 tranny.

It's already been dyno'd, back when the car actually ran. It was on the dyno when we discovered that first gear wouldn't engage.

Do you think your EEC is in failure mode. On Sc's, the fans turn on when the EEc is disconnected or bad. Have you tried resetting the memory? I'm not sure how to do it when you have chip.

Well, I'm hoping it's just going into failure mode right now because of the TCC, and that it isn't burnt. I opened up the EEC, and I couldn't find any signs of it being fried. The fans would come on when they were supposed to when it was running right, but they aren't doing anything weird now (they don't start running when I turn the key on or anything). I have tried resetting the memory, but if whatever caused the problem in the first place isn't fixed, resetting the memory doesn't help because the problem is still there. I'm going to try resetting the memory, then running the car with the plug that I repinned left unplugged. Then I'll try the same with the O2's unplugged. Then I'll test the MAF, and check for spark, and try using one of my spare DIS modules.