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racecougar
03-19-2003, 10:50 PM
Ok, hereís the deal folks. Now before anyone says anything about this not being an SC, I know. But there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who may be able to help me. I could really use some suggestions here. I swapped the splitport 3.8L from a 2000 Mustang into my 1994 Thunderbird. I installed DIS and I also used the 4R70W from the mustang. I had the car running, had it dynotuned, and everything was wonderful except that it didnít have first gear. The car sat for a week before I could work on it. I had decided that the reason I didnít have first gear was due to the fact that I didnít repin the transmission connector when I changed transmissions. So without starting the car beforehand, I repined the connector as per the tech article, adjusted the MLPS (transmission range sensor), and cleaned the MAF. I tried to start the car, it would run for about 3 seconds then sputter and die. I tried using a spare MAF, a different MLPS (also adjusted it back to the way it was), tried pinning the transmission connector back the other way, even tried a spare EEC. Nothing changed.
At this point I assumed that the fuel had picked up condensation from sitting. I replaced the fuel pump (with a 190 lph), the filter, the fuel pressure regulator, and blew out the fuel lines. Still didnít change anything.
This brings me to where Iím at now. Here are the next two things I think it could be:

O2 sensors Ė I bought the car with blown headgaskets, hence the engine swap. I know that O2 sensors are known to go bad after headgaskets go. I just didnít think it would be them because it ran fine a week earlier, then all of a sudden it doesnít.

Vacuum leak Ė It acts like the fuel injectors are being shut off, or there is a BIG vacuum leak somewhere. It is possible to keep the engine running for a little bit by playing with the throttle, but it pops and runs terribly.

Does anyone see anything that I might be missing? I was also thinking about the IAC. It just doesnít make any sense that it ran great, then a week later I canít keep the car running. Iím really thinking that itís a sensor, because for the first 2-3 seconds the car runs fine, then it seems like the EEC sees something going wrong and goes crazy. Sorry for the long post, PLEASE HELP ME! Itís been months since Iíve heard the car run right.

Thanks,
Rod

cougarsc
03-20-2003, 02:59 AM
Using a 98+ 4r70w you need to change the torque converter solenoid (TCC) and MLPS to your year vehicle. The TCC has different sensor outputs between the years, hopefully you did not fry your EEC. THis will require you to drop the pan and swap out the sensors. You will have to trim your 94 TCC connector to look like the 2000 TCC connector. All the other sensors should work fine. Check the TCCOA articles about the 4r70w transmission differences between years. Pages 2 and 16 cover most of the points.

TCCOA article (http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/transmission/page16.shtml)


Also post what wires you changed pins for. There is an updated pinout, I will try to post later tonight.

Mike Manzo
03-20-2003, 03:09 AM
I dont claim to know much, but I was wondering if the car is sitting in park and it wont run after a little bit, what does the trans have to do with it?

Just nosey.


The O2 sensors being fouled may be a good place to start, though. The O2s dont "kick in" until they warm up and if the car runs OK for under a min (cold start = 45 seconds for O2 read) and then EEC talks to O2 and O2 pukes, maybe thats it.

I have never heard of anyone doing that kind of engine install, that is really neat...What do you hope to accomplish with this modification?

I have dealt with all sorts of wierd and unknown problems on both my SCs and in trial and error I have figured them out. If you dont get anywhere and have any more details, I would contribute what I can...

- mike

cougarsc
03-20-2003, 03:11 AM
CHeck out MTCforum.com , they have alot of good info about the swap.

Here is what you should change in the wiring harness:

http://mtcforum.zeroforum.com/zerofile/115/bodyconnector98mark.gif

the pinout is:
Pin Number Circuit Circuit Function
1 ó NOT USED
2 359 (GY/R) Signal Return
3 473 (R/LB) Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Solenoid
4 361 (R) Vehicle Power
5 923 (O/BK) Transmission Fluid Temperature (TFT) Input
6 925 (W/Y) Electronic Pressure Control (EPC) Solenoid
7 237 (O/Y) Shift Solenoid 1
8 315 (P/O) Shift Solenoid 2
9 ó NOT USED
10 ó NOT USED

cougarsc
03-20-2003, 03:14 AM
And for the internal harness or circuit board:

http://mtcforum.zeroforum.com/zerofile/116/transharness98mark.gif

1 ó Not Used
2 ó Signal Return-Transmission Fluid Temperature (TFT)
3 ó Torque Converter Clutch (TCC)
4 ó Vehicle Power-Shift Solenoid
5 ó Transmission Fluid Temperature (TFT)
6 ó Electronic Pressure Control (EPC)
7 ó SSA/SS1
8 ó SSB/SS2
9 ó Not Used
10 ó Not Used

Here is the pinout for a 94

http://mtcforum.zeroforum.com/zerofile/117/94birdtrans.jpg

XR7 Dave
03-20-2003, 09:44 AM
Prevent the car from going into closed loop. This can be done several ways, but one of the easiest it to unplug the O2 sensors. The car does not need them to run. This will help you verify whether going into closed loop is what is killing it.

Open loop sensors are only the MAF, ECT, and I think ACT. It kinda sounds like a MAF problem. I would not only swap out the MAF but also test for MAF voltage at the EEC.

Other idea is ignition related. Are the plugs fouled or maybe the firing order wrong, maybe a wire or two loose?

Could be a vaccum leak, did you have the intake manifold off?

racecougar
03-20-2003, 10:30 AM
I did change the MLPS to the 94 when I swapped in the transmission. However, I was told that I wouldn't have to do anything inside the transmission as long as I repinned the connector going to the transmission. It doesn't make sense that the TCC was working fine with the EEC for awhile then all of a sudden won't work with it at all.

I don't have my pinout diagram with me, but I'll try to post later tonight which pins I switched. I basically followed page 16 of Ford Transmissions 101 on Tccoa.

As far as why I did this swap, I had the engine sitting in my shop and I bought the car with blown headgaskets. It seemed logical, and nobody had done it before.

CougarSC, I really appreciate all of your help, especially those wiring diagrams. Although I'm hoping that you're wrong about having to open up the transmission (I already dropped the pan once, I could have done it then had I known).

If the problem is transmission related, how big are the drawbacks to switching back to a 94 transmission? I'm kind of thinking about it at this point.

XR7 Dave, I'll try that tonight. That's a very good idea. I really hope it's just one of the open loop sensors. I really don't think it's ignition related, the plugs are fine and the wires are tight. The wires were not taken off since the last time it ran, so they're definitely in the right order. I haven't had the intake off in quite some time, and all of the intake bolts are tight.

Thanks for your help guys, please keep the suggestions coming.

cougarsc
03-20-2003, 03:03 PM
The TCC is the one of the main parts you have to change out when installing a 98+ 4r70w trans. I have done the swap. The 94 TCC has an impedance of 1 to 3 ohms. and the 96+ TCC has an impedance of 10-16 ohms. So using the wrong one could give some problems.

This is from MN12performance article:

TCC solenoids are not interchangeable. You must use the correct resistance solenoid for year and type of vehicle.

∑ TCC solenoid - 1 to 3 ohms (Fits 1992 to 1995 except 1995 Lincoln Town Car, Grand Marquis, Ford Crown Victoria) F2VY-7G136-A

∑ TCC solenoid - 10 to 16 ohms (Fits 1995 Lincoln Town Car, Grand Marquis, Ford Crown Victoria and all 1996 and up models) F7AZ-7G136-A

TCC (Torque Converter Solenoid) - 2 different ones!
1 to 3 ohms - F2VY-7G136-A (1992-1995) Note:This part # F2VY-7G136-A is still the current number.
10 to 16 ohms - F7AP-7G136-AA (1996-up valve body only)
(If your vehicle is pre 1996 then use the F2VY-7G136-A TCC solenoid.) If you are unsure check the TCC with an OHM meter. The 1-3 ohms solenoid should be about 1.3 ohms and the 10-16 ohm solenoid should be about 10.9 ohms. The 1-3 ohms TCC has a Black connector and the 10-16 ohms TCC has a WHITE connector.

article (http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12-techinfo/trans-tech/4r70w_rebuild.html)

racecougar
03-21-2003, 01:01 AM
Didn't have much time at all to work on the car today, but I did have a chance to pull one of the spark plugs immediately after trying to start it. It was completely saturated with fuel, so it's either getting WAY to much fuel, the ignition timing is all of a sudden WAY off, or something is shutting off the ignition all together. Tomorrow I'm going to check the EEC by putting it back in the car it originally came from (see if I fried the EEC). If the EEC's still good, then I'll try unplugging the O2's so that the car stays in open loop and see what happens. I have a feeling that the computer is fried, most likely due to the different TCC. I wish I had known that the TCC was different, all I was told before was that I needed to repin the main transmission connector.

93 Mark VIII
03-21-2003, 01:44 AM
if you don't get it running soon, I'll come down and try to help out. I may have a super coupe EEC I can steal to test.

BTW, I don't work for fordchip :)

Brian

racecougar
03-21-2003, 01:52 AM
Hey cougarsc, I have some questions. I saw that you posted the internal wiring diagram. Do I need to change any of that? I thought that was the reason I repinned the connector that plugs into the transmission. Also, how do I switch the TCC with a 95 and earlier model? I was reading the tech article on tccoa, and from what I read I would have to change all the internal electronic pieces. From page 16 of Ford Transmissions 101:

"The connectors on the solenoids are different, so when switching from one to the other, rather than changing the pinout on the harness, you must change all the internal electronic pieces."

Also, if you don't mind, take a look at page 6 under "Can I put a later model transmission in my car?"

Ford Transmissions 101 - Page 6 (http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/transmission/page6.shtml)

It didn't mention the TCC, that's why I never knew anything about it. What exactly does the TCC do? Doesn't it lock up the torque convertor? Would it be possible to drive the car and make good power on the dyno without the TCC working?

I'd like to remedy this whole problem ASAP. I was relying on this car as my daily driver, and I needed it about 4 months ago. My other daily driver is just about dead.

Thanks

racecougar
03-21-2003, 01:54 AM
I apologize Brian. I would really appreciate the help. I'll be here all week (this is my spring break, what a great vacation). Just give me a call when you get a chance.

Thanks

cougarsc
03-21-2003, 02:26 AM
Don't change anything with the internal harness. I just included that so you can check and double check with the pin swapping in the outer harness.

Once you have the 2000 TCC, compare with the 94 TCC. Now make the 94 look like the 2000 TCC. You will have to trim the plastic down maybe 1/4-inch, so that the 2000 internal harness will fit the 94 TCC.
I used a dremel an carefully cut the plastic and not the 2 pins.

Also becareful on removing the internal harness, it just snaps in at the different sensors and solenoids.


http://members.tccoa.com/cougarsc/tcca.jpg

racecougar
03-21-2003, 02:32 AM
I know I keep asking you question after question, but I added more questions to my last post while you were posting your reply cougarsc. I'll try to quit bugging you for tonight, I promise.

cougarsc
03-21-2003, 02:43 AM
Okay, I read your questions. This statement :

"The connectors on the solenoids are different, so when switching from one to the other, rather than changing the pinout on the harness, you must change all the internal electronic pieces."

Is when you don't want to change the outer harness pinouts and you want to reuse your 94 inner harness. Then you will need to change out all the sensor/solenoids.

Either way will get it running. But I preferred to use updated inner wiring harness, which is a circuit board type. Also, you get the benefit of 3 or 4 newer sensors, minus the TCC solenoid.

racecougar
03-21-2003, 02:49 AM
Thankyou very much.

cougarsc
03-21-2003, 02:53 AM
Have you run any codes?

From the manuals: TCC is used to control the apply and release of the torque converter.


But I would not dyno yet. You could burn your clutches in your 2000 tranny.

racecougar
03-21-2003, 02:55 AM
It's already been dyno'd, back when the car actually ran. It was on the dyno when we discovered that first gear wouldn't engage.

cougarsc
03-21-2003, 03:08 AM
Do you think your EEC is in failure mode. On Sc's, the fans turn on when the EEc is disconnected or bad. Have you tried resetting the memory? I'm not sure how to do it when you have chip.

racecougar
03-21-2003, 03:39 AM
Well, I'm hoping it's just going into failure mode right now because of the TCC, and that it isn't burnt. I opened up the EEC, and I couldn't find any signs of it being fried. The fans would come on when they were supposed to when it was running right, but they aren't doing anything weird now (they don't start running when I turn the key on or anything). I have tried resetting the memory, but if whatever caused the problem in the first place isn't fixed, resetting the memory doesn't help because the problem is still there. I'm going to try resetting the memory, then running the car with the plug that I repinned left unplugged. Then I'll try the same with the O2's unplugged. Then I'll test the MAF, and check for spark, and try using one of my spare DIS modules.

cougarsc
03-21-2003, 08:13 PM
Hey Racecougar, I just looked at the TCCoa article page 16, and their pinout for the 1998 or newer harness is wrong. I think they have not updated the picture, but it is known to be incorrect by the author and others that did the conversion.

I would use the pinouts from the manuals I posted above. You will have 2 extra pins that are 12v power sources, you can push them into the extra blank spaces, or pull them out and put twist caps on them.

I would print out the connector as a template and poke holes where the pins would go. Then just slide the pins from the back of the picture before putting into the connector. Hope that makes sense. Also you will have to drill a hole for the #4 pin, as on the 94 connector was not used. You have to drill thru the back connector cover and I think the blue rubber insulator.

Then double check with the internal harness picture and see that everything matches up.

Here is a better picture with labels and color codes.


http://members.tccoa.com/cougarsc/bodyconnector98mark.gif

racecougar
03-21-2003, 10:13 PM
Thanks cougarsc, and yes I understand exactly what you're trying to say. I changed the TCC today, and I'll try to get it repinned tomorrow. Changing the TCC was a piece of cake, the $40 that Ford charged for it was the only part of the job that was a real pain in the neck. I put the EEC that I was using back in the parts car that it came from in an effort to see if the EEC was still ok, but I couldn't get the car to start. I just now realized that I took the MLPS from that car and used it on my Tbird. So tomorrow I'll put the MLPS back on it and see if my EEC is still good. (Fingers crossed) We'll see what happens tomorrow. Once again, thanks for all the help. I'm so glad I have a website like this to turn too.

cougarsc
03-22-2003, 01:26 AM
Good luck, I thought the hardest part was draining the transmission.

Hey, if you come across some splitport heads, let me know.

Later,
Jerrod

racecougar
03-22-2003, 01:30 AM
Actually I will have some splitport heads for sale before too long. I'm porting and polishing a spare set I have, if the car ever runs again I'm planning on running it at the track once with the stock heads then swapping in my ported and polished pair. So the stock ones will be for sale hopefully by the middle or end of the summer.

racecougar
03-22-2003, 03:34 PM
Could the chip possibly be hurt? Here's what I've done so far today:

Put the EEC back in the car it originally came from, and the car ran just fine. So I put the EEC back in the Tbird. Tried unplugging the transmission connector, didn't change. Plugged it back in, and tried unplugging the O2's, the car cranked, but didn't even want to start. Plugged those back in.

I'm getting ready to drill the extra hole in the transmission connector and repin it, but I was just wondering if it could be the chip. The car almost acts like the chip isn't working at all, and it makes no difference whether the chip is plugged in or not, the car runs the same way (terrible). If the chip isn't correcting the values in the EEC, that would explain why it's dumping so much fuel into the engine, the EEC's programmed from the factory for 14 lb injectors, and the chip corrects it to run the 21lb. I'm thinking that when I repinned the transmission connector as per page 16 of Ford Transmissions 101 on tccoa (the incorrect way), that it could have damaged the chip, and now it's not working at all.

racecougar
03-24-2003, 01:28 AM
I definitely think it's the chip that is causing the problem now. It must have been damaged when the transmission connector was repinned the first time as per the Tccoa tech article. I repinned the transmission connector the correct way (thanks to cougarsc for the wiring diagrams). I'm waiting to hear back from Brian about burning another chip to see if that's my problem. I'll keep everyone posted.

93 Mark VIII
03-24-2003, 01:31 AM
rod,
I'm a few days behind in Voice messages :)

do you want me to send you another chip via mail, or do you want to pick it up from me somewhere?

Brian

racecougar
03-24-2003, 01:58 AM
Hey Brian,
I'd like to come pick one up from you, I really hope that this is what's wrong with the car. I could come by as soon as tomorrow. Just let me know what will work for you. Give me a call tomorrow 636-942-3340 or email at [email protected] I'll be here all day.

Thanks

racecougar
03-25-2003, 04:46 AM
Brian burned another chip for me tonight, and he also noticed that the contacts were not very clean. I sanded them down to copper and installed the new chip. The car started up and ran, but had a miss in one of the cylinders on the driverside. Just for kicks I decided to try the old chip. It ran exactly the same. I pulled the spark plugs on the driverside, they are all firing. I reinstalled them and put some dielectric grease in the spark plug wire boots. That's as far as I got tonight. It really doesn't seem like a vacuum leak, and it is almost definitely coming from one of the driverside cylinders. Every few seconds one of those cylinders misses, like it doesn't fire every other time. The check engine light has not come on. Tomorrow I'm going to try cleaning the contacts even better (with some spray electrical cleaner), maybe try a spare DIS ignition module and coil, and try pulling some codes. But at least we're heading in the right direction, the car will idle on it's own now, and the O/D light has ceased blinking (FINALLY!).

cougarsc
03-25-2003, 07:30 PM
Glad to hear you got it running. So do you have first gear now?

If you were running rich before, check your plugs. You may need to change them. Check you plug wires and how they plug into the coil pack. There's probably a better picture out there:

3 *---* 6
2 *---* 5 engine
1 *---* 4

1 2 3 coil pack
5 6 4

What type of fuel system are you running the 99+ returnless or the early return type?

racecougar
03-25-2003, 07:40 PM
I don't have it running good enough to see how the transmission is doing yet. It seemed like the longer I let it run last night the better it got. But it seems to have plateaued (if that's how you spell it). One of the cylinders on the driverside still has a miss in it. I changed the plugs, but that didn't really help. I also tried a spare DIS module I have, no change. I just ran the codes, and here's what I got.

Key On Engine Off:

511 - Read Only Memory Test Failed
335 - PFE (EGR sensor) voltage out of range
341 - Octane Adjust Service Pin in use

Stored Codes:

336 - PFE signal higher than expected (exhaust pressure high)

Engine Running Codes:

336 - PFE signal higher than expected (exhaust pressure high)


The only one I'm worried about is the 336 code. That code has been there ever since I installed the engine, and was there even when the car ran correctly. Does this mean that something may be blocking the exhaust flow, or is the sensor just bad? I think I have a spare sensor laying around, I'll probably stick that on and see what happens.

racecougar
03-25-2003, 07:41 PM
Oh, and I'm running a return style fuel system.

cougarsc
03-25-2003, 08:08 PM
Code 336 can be cause by:

*exhaust system restricted
*PFE sensor faulty
*faulty PCM

Are you running EGR or did you delete it?

It may all go back to what sensors are you using with the splitport engine. Some eec-v sensors may not be compatible with the EEC-IV pcm.

racecougar
03-25-2003, 08:15 PM
I'm using EGR. I'm not using any of the EGR sensors from the splitport engine, they are all original to the car.

racecougar
03-25-2003, 11:42 PM
Ok, here's exactly what is going on:

800-1500 rpm, will not hold a steady rpm, falls on it's face
1500-2500 rpm, will hold a steady rpm, but has a miss
2500-up, seems to run pretty good

I revved it up quite a few times, the last time I took it to 3500 and the check engine light came on. Shut it off and restarted it, no check engine light. I pulled the codes again and got one new stored memory code:

332 - EGR Valve Opening not detected

cougarsc
03-26-2003, 12:59 AM
This could just be a bad or stuck EGR valve.

Check your vacuum connections for the EGR and the vacuum and electrical connections for the EGR transducer. Also, check for a cracked EGR tube, this happens often to the SC's near the flex joint.


Or may be your dyno tune is off. Your lower load calculations might be off because you did not have first gear.

racecougar
03-26-2003, 04:40 PM
I found out that the EEC I'm using (94 3.8L N/A Calif.) supports a DPFE instead of a PFE, so I installed the DPFE. I've also located my problem: The EGR is receiving vacuum at the wrong time (I think it's receiving vacuum almost all of the time, definitely at idle), which causes the EGR valve to be held open. The car runs fine with the EGR vacuum line removed. I was hoping it would just be a faulty EVR solenoid (the little black solenoid by the EGR that has two wires and two vacuum lines going to it), but unfortunately the EVR solenoid is fine. For some reason the EVR solenoid is receiving a signal to supply the EGR valve with vacuum when it shouldn't be. What sends the signal to the EVR? Could this just be a problem with the tune on the chip, or do I possibly have some wiring crossed up somewhere?

One more question, does it matter how the two hoses are hooked up to the DPFE? On my EGR tube, there are two fittings both the same size, one is slightly closer to the exhaust manifold than the other. On the DPFE, one fitting is larger than the other, and I believe one says "HI" and the other "REF". I figured that it didn't matter which order the two hoses were attached, but I'm not sure.

racecougar
03-26-2003, 09:41 PM
IT'S FIXED!!!

Apparently it does matter which way the hoses hook up to the DPFE. It runs really good, and it even has first gear. My only complaint is that it goes from 1000-5000 rpm's way too fast, I need to get some taller, wider, stickier tires. The first time I took the car out on the street I almost wrecked the thing, the tires that are on it just can't hook up.

The only other problem that will hopefully be taken care of shortly is that the shift points are all wrong. I forgot to mention to Brian that I had 3.73's in the car when he set up the shift points on the chip. But other than that, the car runs great. Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread, I appreciate it very much. Without everyone's help I'd still be sitting here scratching my head. THANKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU.

I'd like to post a picture of the car, but for some reason I can't get it to work. Could I email the pic to someone and have them attach it?

Flex
03-27-2003, 01:59 PM
Hey board members and all those who helped Rod with his car. Here are some pics he asked me to put up for him.

http://www.mustangmods.net/data/418/01080004.jpg

http://www.mustangmods.net/data/418/01250004.jpg

http://www.mustangmods.net/data/418/03260004.jpg

David Neibert
03-27-2003, 04:34 PM
Rod,

I don't know if you remember me, but I met you and your Dad at Stegimeirs when Brian tuned your car.

Congrats on sticking with such a complicated project. Most people would never have even attempted such a difficult swap. I'm very impressed that someone of your age (18 yrs. old I think) was smart enough to pull it off. I can only imagine what you will be able to accomplish in another 5 years.

Keep up the good work, we need smart guys like you to help the rest of us out.

David

racecougar
03-27-2003, 05:42 PM
Of course I remember you David, I mean how could I possibly forget your car? Those were some great numbers on the dyno. Thanks for the compliments. Will you be at the TBU meet April 12-14th? I'm going to try to make it out to MAR for the 14th to see Mendola's car run, hopefully I'll see you and most of the other St. Louis guys there. Now I just need to finish my quick car, the motor's ready to drop in (I'm done with 6cyls for a while) I just don't have the time.

Oh yeah, by the way I'm almost 20 ;) , but I still feel like I'm 18. And I really appreciate all the other smart people who helped me out, I wouldn't have been able to finish this project without them.

David Neibert
03-27-2003, 06:12 PM
Rod,

Yes I'll be there, Kathy and I are hosting the meet and everyone is staying the weekend at our house. Your welcome to stay with us too. The Party is Friday, Dyno Tuning and cleaning up cars on Saturday and Racing at MAR on Sunday.

ESM has already made arrangments for the TBU to have a seperate class and parking area just like the last couple times we went there.

We should have some very fast cars attending and at least two should be capable of 11s. I will be happy to get in the 12s.

David

smokymance
03-27-2003, 08:50 PM
how fast is it now...all finished....what is the HP and trq ratings....looks real nice....a job well done.

racecougar
03-28-2003, 02:45 AM
Thankyou very much for inviting me, I'm flattered. I may possibly be able to go to the party on Friday, but my band is playing a pretty big gig on Saturday night, so I definitely won't be around for the dyno on Saturday. My plan right now is to drive home early Sunday morning (like 2AM or so), wrench on the car til 6 or 7, put it on the trailer and haul it out to Wentzville. I will definitely look for you guys when I get there. Brian kinda talked me into running my car, so save me a spot in the pits. Heh, you're happy to run 12's, I would be ecstatic to break into the 15's. I mean the car is quick, real quick, but I have no idea what it will run. With the tires it has on it now (they're like 215's or something), it gets a little sideways going into second and chirps them pretty good going into third. I should be getting some 255x60R16's (28" tall) for the rear on Saturday.

Overall, I'm impressed with it, and I'm really impressed with the amount of power Brian was able to tune into it. Thankyou very much Brian.

One quick question David, what exactly is TBU? I've heard a few of the St. Louis guys mention it, is it a St. Louis MN12 club? If so, I'd be interested in joining, I'd like to meet up with you guys more often.

93 Mark VIII
03-28-2003, 03:02 AM
the TBU...

http://pub83.ezboard.com/bthunderbirdunderground

racecougar
03-28-2003, 03:19 AM
Thanks Brian, I should have asked you earlier today. By the way, the shifts feel great. Now I just need to get those tires......