The Before Picture (Road Racer)

[Mansier]

Unfortunately the "Before" picture is too big to post, but the 1992 Supercoupe is now in the shop and preparing to make the big change! We got the supercoupe back from the transmission shop (had the transmission rebuilt almost a year ago, and before the warranty wore out, it needed to be rebuilt). The transmission is now not the original, and is a dyno tested rebuild. Anyone interested in a complete swap 1992 auto transmission for your 5 speed please get in touch 330.242.5008 or mansier@racenasa.com . Complete: All pedals, tranny, clutch, etc. Attached is an artists rendering of what the car may look like when completed. We are having him update it with the wing/splitter/diffuser that will be on the car, and will post it again. The start of all the stripping will begin tomorrow. The car is very clean, so if you have a need for parts we will not use in the final race car, give a call!

Our intention is to post up weights of items, technical information we find, and anything else we find. There are a few sponsors for the car so far, but we are starting the search for the title sponsor, and other associate sponsors. We hope to have a rough version on the track for the Nelson Ledges 6 Hour August 9th for testing.

See you at the track!

Lawrence Mansier
Owner, Mansier Motorsports
NASA OH/IN Region Director

[IMG]http://

[Mansier]

I spent three hours today taking material out of the interior. All work was done with hand tools, no air. Below is a list of items and their respective weights.

Drivers Seat 55
Passenger Seat 57
Rear Seat Back 38
Rear Seat Bottom 14
Passenger Side Trim + Speaker 10
Floor Mats 5
Drivers Side Trim + Speaker 10
Passenger Side Door Panel 11
Drivers Side Door Panel 11
Trunk Carpet 9
Jack, Spare, + Cover 41
Rear seat insulation mat 7
Rear Seat Braces 6

Total 274

This Supercoupe had all the options, so these are the leather 6 way adjustable seats, 60/40 fold down rear.

LM

[Mike8675309]

Way to go. Sounds very cool. If you can place the before image on a webserver somewhere, you can post the link to the image here so we can see it.

Are you building this for a specific class or race or anything specific?

[Mansier]

We will have a webpage up soon. We are taking pictures as each piece or so comes out. The car is being built to race in the NASA American Iron Series. Here are the rules:

http://www.americaniron-east.com/rules.shtml

Here's hoping we can get another 700 or more lbs out of it!

LM

[Mike8675309]

Are you going to run the stock 3.8 SC motor or are you swapping out for a V8?

That rear subassembly for the suspension weighs a ton. There is a tubular member built by Kenny Bell for the Mustang Cobra that might bolt up. Sounds like a lot of fun.

[Mansier]

Our intention is to use the 3.8 SC. As long as we can get 300 RWHP out of it, the TQ from this motor would do well especially on the short tracks. However, we don't want to have to twist the Supercharger too hard to do it, as the motor could become a time bomb.

We will most likely be tubing up our own subassemblies both front and rear. Perhaps even moving the engine back 1-2 inches. You are right, they are quite substantial! And weigh an absolute ton. We'll probably lose 80-100 lbs in each by tubing them.

Once we get the car gutted, they come out next for measurements and fabrication.

LM

[Mike8675309]

Weight balance on the stock SC is quite good. So I'm not sure if there is a need to move it back unless you want to do that for other reasons. Maybe due to where you are removing weight from.

Make sure you pop in over at the www.tbscec.com in the engine area. Some of the guys with the strongest motors hang out over there. They can probably give you their thoughts on building the engine for the HP and use you are looking for.

[silversc90]

hey mansier, did you get your intercooler sorted out?

[Mansier]

Yes and No on the intercooler. The Super Duty Ford Truck intercooler measures 38"x19"x2" which will fit by about 1/8" in the front. We may try running two stock intercoolers with a split pipe. What I mean is: As the air comes from the supercharger we may take the one tube into two, then run the air through the intercoolers, and as it returns to the engine combine it back to 1 again. This way there is about half of the air going through each intercooler. In theory it would reduce the pressure loss by running less volume in each intercooler, but we won't know until we build it. When we get the front end apart, I'll write more on what we find.

LM

[Mansier]

Day 2: No Work
Day 3: Removed the following parts with weights

Passenger and Driver Window Glass 10 each
Pass. and Dr. Speakers 1.5 each
Pass. and Dr. Window Motors 7 each
Pass. and Dr. Window Guides 7 each
Center Console 9
Under Steering Column Panel 1
Pass/Dr. Carpet 21

Total (for day3) 82 lbs
Total so Far 356 lbs

Time for Day 3 2 hours
Total so Far 5 hours

[Mansier]

Day 4: No Work
Day 5: The following came out with weights

Pass. Seat belt track and Motor 4
Dr. Seat belt track and Motor 4
All Seat Belts 13
Sunvisors 1.5 each
Roof Panel 5
Moon Roof and Motor 25
Rear Deck Panel 1

Total 55
Total So Far 411

Time 3 Hours (did more than listed, but no more out)
Total Time 8 Hours

A note: The ride height was measure just behind the front wheels, and just in front of the rear wheels before we started. All of this weight was taken out from behind the dash. Current ride height is 1/2 inch higher in the back, and 3/8 higher in the front.

[plev72]

Thanks for providing this info for us, this is really cool stuff to know, after my engine gets done I figure the only "mods" I'll be doing for a while will be weight reduction - carbon fiber or fiberglass hood, the lighter battery, etc...

[Mansier]

Day 6: No Work
Day 7&8: The following came out with weights:

Glove Box 6
Instrument Cluster 5
Climate Control 3
Entire Dash Assembly 60
Underdash Pad (Includes an air duct that runs under the front seats 15
Rear Crush Bumper (plastic honeycomb bumber section) 10
Door Frame Weather Striping (2) 5

Total Day 8: 104
Overall Total: 515

Time Day 7&8: 7
Total Time: 15

When taking out the steering column, use plenty of penetrating lubricant. If the bolts spin, they are very difficult to work on. However, the bolts are threaded on the male end with a reverse torx type fitting.

This is the same for the rear bumper. Although the fitting is a hex head, not torx. We spun the rear bumper bolts, and will most likely have to drill a hole in the bumber to get at the back of the bolt.

So far we have sponsorship on the seat belt harnesses (2 sets), seats (2 recaro competition), and fuel injectors (36lb). We will be making an announcement about our sponsors once we secure the main sponsor. Wish us luck!

LM

[Mike8675309]

Good luck!!

[KwikGSeX]

Wow this is GREAT INFO!! My 90 is gutted to the point of where you are with the exception of the Dashboard and windows.. Did you remove all the insulation from the cockpit of the car? What a pain in the *** but it seems like i saved at least 35-40lbs if not more.. I also removed the windshield wiper motor assembly from the front of the car and the entire AC is about to go out next.. Plus there is an aluminum driveshaft waiting to go in.. I never weighed the parts tho so i wasnt sure how much weight i had saved.. Looks like im around 400+lbs lighter.. I want to remove the dash and gut the inside of it also but i dont know it seems like alot of work for minimal weight loss..

Mansier have you ever heard of Percy's Speed Glass? Seems like you could save almost 100lbs by changing all the windows to that..

[Doug Franklin]

Mansier, we have written each other before. I ran a 95 down here as long as I could. So you are stripping like myself. I have basically been doing it to a 91 N/A car so not to use up another SC. However we got a 90 SC that just has too many little dings for the street. So looks like 2 cars purly for the track. Down to the heater core/AC out and so much stripped from it. I did not bother to weigh things, as we have so many scales at the track. I am looking at removing the trunk and hood underside support frames. I have extra SC suspension and lowering springs, etc, etc. The car lightens up a lot. I may not use the stiffer springs. On the subject of moving the engine back I am looking at the same thing. As you probably know the front can plow if you really push it. Using the throttle to balance it is not always the quikest way around the track. Of course NASA may not allow firewall and floor hump mods? NASA come to Motorsport Ranch. No SCs. I am debating on the engine. The 3.8 is very good, but I am going to run 2 types of V8s as well to experiment. Forget cats in this. If they plug up your in for some expense. I am considering one car with the new big intercooler. Maybe the 95 as I want it semi street/track. Later, Doug

[Mansier]

Doug thanks for the note. Great to hear of another track SC! I am weighing everything for general knowledge, and to keep a log of where the weight came from (ex. middle-right-low, rear-left-high) We do have scales available to us on race weekends, and often in the shop, so I can't wait to see what it will finish up at.

As for the firewall/floor. There can be no cutting of this metal for the class. However, they can be "massaged". It looks like the engine could go back an inch or two before hitting the firewall in most places, but we'll report more as we get closer.

More weights tonight!

LM

[Doug Franklin]

Can you explain "massage" in the firewall/floorhump? I am interested. Maybe get into NASA, or maybe my son.
DF

[Mansier]

The stock firewall and floorpan must be used. They may not be cut or deleted except for some clearances. However, they may be bent or massaged. So bending the metal in the firewall to move the engine back would be allowed. However, noone has gone this far yet because of not having a frame jig, or other way to keep the frame straight while doing this work.

Check it out at www.racenasa.com at the rules link for American Iron.

LM

[Mike8675309]

Shipping is under $100. I shipped a transmission and transfercase from MN to Ohio for $86.00. Catch is you need to be able to bring it to the terminal, and the buyer needs to be able to pick it up at the terminal. You also need to package it yourself.


I spent $10 on some ratcheting tie straps, and found an old pallet to strap it down on. Then stapled cardboard around it to make a box.

Just find a freight company like Yellow that has a terminal nearby to both of you.

[Mansier]

Day 9 and 10: No Work
Day 11 and early 12: The following came off with weights

Front Inner Fender Liners 3.5 each
*Rear Quarter Windows 5 each (going to make Polycarbonate windows)
Heater Motor 4
CD Player 6 (10 CD changer mounted in back)
Cowling Plastic 5
Front Bumper Crush Structure (plastic) 9
*Front Light Assembly 12
Air Cleaner Assembly 7
*Hood 58
Battery Plate/Holder 2
Radiator Fan 7
*Radiator and Bracket 20

Day 11+12 Weight 147
Weight that will go back into the car when lightened (*) 100
Total Weight taken out (that won't be going back in) 562

Day 11+12 Time 5.5 Hours
Total Time 20.5

All work has been done with hand tools, no air tools. The hood will most likely be gutted and vented down to about the 30 lbs or lower area. The front light assembly will be holed for a few lbs. The Quarter windows will most likely be put back in about 2lbs each, and a radiator must be found now. The radiator area can accomodate an approximately 31x19 radiator. The front bumper appears to be welded on, not bolted. Most likely we will take a hole saw to it, and flare the edges of the holes for strength.

The front end is now 1.25 inches higher than stock, and the rear is 1 inch higher.

LM

[Doug Franklin]

Mansier,
I went back a read about your tubing. I mis read and thought you were cutting the whole front end off at first. Dah. I believe you mean the subassembly or K member in the front and back. I saw a front one for the T-Bird at the last PRI show. Looked much more somple. If you want I can dig out the company name, etc. Bolts right up they said.
Doug

[Mansier]

We have spoken with a company in Indiana that did a K member for a Drag car. If the car was yellow, I have the pictures. It was for a drag race front end. We will be making one for Road Race use. Perhaps a bit more beefy, and a different design from the one they had. It looked pretty good though!

LM

[Randy N Connie]

If your looking for a K-MEMBER .You can contact

AJE RACING
6235 N. County Road 275 W
North Vernon,IN. 47265
ph.812-346-7356
ph800-877-7233
fax812-346-8397
E-Mail aje@gte.net
WEB. ajeracing.com
owner Anthony Jones

I have talk to Anthony about building ,for me a road racing to street, K-MEMBER,
Upper A-Arms,lower arm,Adj coil overs,aluminum spindel with 4130 axel,big brake
set up,and he has power or nonpower streering rack.

He makes part for stangs,for drag racing,

I was suppose to take my sc over to him to have mine made up,But
have not found the time to do so yet.He wanted to keep my sc
for about 4 to 5 week to custom make the front K-member a-arms etc.
To make the jig up.

Do you want to get together to see if we can get a price brake.

He has a jig for the fox chassis t-bird,but not the mn12 chassis.

Mansier you can contact me at rbpertek@csuol.com
MY business name is RBs performance technology
I made carbon fiber performance parts for HD drag bikes.
CARBON FIBER PUSHRODS,CARBON-CARBON brake rotors H.D.body parts, drag bike chassis
titanium roller lifters.I have a SPORTSTER H.D. style cases that go to 200 cid.billet heads ect.

Maybe someday we can get to gether and I can race ya with one of my t-birds.


THANKS RANDY:p

[Doug Franklin]

Just dug out my cards. Looks like Randy&Connie beat me to it. AJE is who I was thinking of. They told me road race since dragging is not what I am after. Said they had a unit that including 6 piston brake set up, etc. I didn't see any yellow bird. Mansier I may come up and see ya. Would like to know what your doing on the K members. Yes heavy subframes.

I almost got brakes from Dilusi Motorsport in Richmond, TX. Had oportunity to get them way cheaper than what we usualy see. Will see what I can resurect there.

DF

[Randy N Connie]

You may be interrested in, or allready know, Kenny brown in Indy
makes a tube sub-frame for the new stang that may be addapted
for the MN12.

With the front K-MEMBER & rear tube IRS sub-frame could be worth
a couple hundred pound savings.

Since you are getting all this info are you going to run a SCCoA sticker in your window
I bet glliid would fix you right up.

RANDY:D

[Mansier]

We have spoken with Kenny Brown about the Supercoupe. He built one with Rich LaBarbera back in the early 90's that was actually chopped in half, took out 8 inches, and put back together. I saw the car at my first Drivers Ed school! Anyway, since the car will have a full cage with x bracing, the subframe and other connectors he had would not be needed (we both agreed). They are basically moving out of that market place, as the Mustang business, etc. is where they are headed.

[Mike8675309]

There were a few of those short wheelbase T-birds built. XR7 Dave just recently purchased #3 and GLDIII had his built by the same custom chassis guys (Auto Kraft) that built the original cars.

David's

http://www.sccoa.com/member/images/dalke891sm.jpg

George's
Before
http://sccoa.com/member/images/davenport1sm.jpg
After
http://www.thundercoupe.com/images/P0001356sm.jpg

[plev72]

If any of these major lightening components will be streetable, you might consider offering them up for group buy if the manufacturer can produce ... folks that are doing major rebuilds would really be able to take advantage of the weight saving components (assuming durability). The stock hood only weighed in at 50 pounds?? I'd figured it would be much heavier than that. Didn't read the rules (I know I should) but they preclude you from going fiberglass or carbon fiber on the hood?

Paul

[Mansier]

The hood weighed in at 58 lbs. We weighed it three different ways to make sure that was right! It really doesn't have as much bracing as I would have assumed. Yes, the hood and bumper covers are the only materials that can be changed to a fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc. If we can get the hood under 30 lbs, that will be a pretty good accomplishment.

We are taking the sound deadening material (that sticky stuff that looks like sheets under the carpet and padding). Should be another 20 lbs or so. Did some work last night, but left the weight sheet at the shop! We'll post it all up tonight when we get back.

LM

[Mansier]

Days 13&14: The following came out with weights

Mufflers, pipe, from resonator back 32
E-Brake handle 4
AC Compressor 13
Exhaust Y-pipe, cats, resonator 37
Door Wiring (keeping power mirrors, everything else) 10
Under dash padding 14
Heater Core, etc. 16
AC Evaporator 6
Windshield Wiper Motor assembly 8
Door Locks 4
Radio Amp and Wires 4
Cruise control and wires 4
Sun Roof Wires 1
Trunk Wires 1
Dead Pedal 2
Sound Deadening material (so far about 1/2 done) 9

Day 13&14 Weight: 165
Total Weight: 727

Day 13&14 Hours: 13
Total Hours: 33.5

Other weights of items that will be returned to the car (most likely):

Intercooler 9
IC top and tube 7
SC wheel and BFG tire: 41 each!!!

A thank you to David Dalke who gave up his Saturday evening to help work on this racing effort. David was instrumental in working with the electrical system, and beginning to design the final racing electrical harness we will use. David's knowledge of these cars is tremendous. It was an incredible boost to the team to have him on board!

Also, with the wiper motor out of the way, it seems like the engine could be moved back about 4 to 6 inches. We will be looking at this seriously in an effort to more centrally locate the engine.

LM

[Mansier]

Days 15-18 the following came out with weights:

Exhaust manifolds 14 total
Lower IC Tube 8
Motor Mounts 12 Total

Flexplate 10
Master Cylinder Assembly 25 (wow!)
Jack Shaft Pulley 3.5
Passenger side Acc. Bracket 10
Starter 7

Total Weight that stays out: 34
Total other weight 55.5

Days 15-18 Time 11
Total Time 44.5

The engine and transmission are out. The front K-Member is out with all front suspension, etc. The sound deadening is almost all out. David Dalke helped out again! Now the fabricating begins! We are looking at the engine mounts to see if we may be able to make a mount that would move the engine down and back (easier, and may be used by others for less expense!). The whole K member is not out of the question.

LM

[Mansier]

So here is the latest update!

The sound deadening is out completely, and the interior has been cleaned up. Rear bumper is off (will weigh), heads are off and the exhaust ports have been ported and honed. The bores look good (original cross hatching intact). Fitting of the intercoolers and radiator is being done. Looks like they will be in two layers with their own intake areas. Will post pictures when somewhat completed. The front suspension is apart, and now searching for suspension sponsors.

Our safety belts arrived from MOJO Racing Products. Black, camlock, 5 points.

We are about ready to put in the cage, and have been fitting the driver. He may sit farther back than original. We are still at about the 800 lbs out stage. We will be adjusting the springs soon.

The wing is being sized, and will be built in the next ten days.

Can't wait to see what kind of speed we can get out of it!

[Ripvanbl]

I have been tracking your progress on all the T-Bird forums you have been posting on that I can find. I am about 30 minutes from Thunderhill Road Race Park, so I am very interested in this project because that is the route I am taking.

So any new developments?

[sctbird90]

Any progress on this very interesting project?:confused:

[Doug Franklin]

If Mansier doesn't mind me saying: Got an email from him some time ago. Said he was busy running the races and will get back to it when season closses. Hope that is the case, Mansier!!! About ready to send him a camara. Would love some pics.

[Mansier]

OK! We just finished up the racing season, and are back at the Thunderbird. We have made the decision to run it in Endurance Races in 2004, while also running the sprint races in Pro Sedan 0, all within NASA. The car is not fitting well in American Iron at this point, and with a proposed "Stock" class for American Iron in 2005, we will sort the car and wait to see if it fits. In the meantime, it will be running most of the mods we had thought about, but tone down the motor a bit. Probably running about 250-275 RWHP instead of the 325 we would need in American Iron. That way we can tune the car, get the drivers faster, and test, test, test.

The cage will start going in late next week. We will get back with the pictures soon. During 2004 we will start fabricating the K-members, etc. to get it ready for AI specs.

We also made a deal lately to get Brembo brakes for the front. These are the Big Reds used on 996 type Porsches. As long as they arrive, that should solve any braking issues we might have had!

More to come!

LM

[fast Ed]

I think I made this comment before either here or maybe over on TBSCEC, but IMHO you'll really need to pay attention to the intercooler system and also the engine cooling. I ended up doing about 6 or 7 track days with my SC this summer instructing at a few events, and it's pretty much done after about 15 minutes of 90 to 95% effort track running. Granted, with the AC removed you're getting more airflow through, and you'll be hauling around 500 lbs. less than mine, but if you want to be able to run yours hard, especially in enduros, the cooling is going to require close attention.

Good luck with this project, please continue to keep us updated as you have time. Not all of the SCCoA people are just drag racers !! ;) :D


cheers
Ed Nicholson
SCCoO

[kurt78b]

So Lawrence, did Rick tell you I was planning a super coupe powered Mustang for AI next season?
Since we're both on the same wavelength...have you come to any conclusions as to what to do to cool the air charge? I was thinking about an air-water setup similar to what Jeremy is running in his Cobra, just with the IC inside the cabin instead of the engine bay...but I really like the radiator in the backseat as a heat exchanger.

-Kurt Borton (Gene's son)

p.s. - I may need to speak with you about the wiring, it looks like that will be my biggest hurdle in the swap....I just have to figure out what's necessary and what I can trash.

[Mansier]

No he didn't tell me, but I could tell something was up. I don't think we are the only two thinking this way. I have a number of things in mind, but will only trade for a 5 speed baby!

Mustangs are cool, but the T-Bird is where it's at. The wiring is pretty involved, and only with the help of D. Dalke was I able to come within a country mile of figuring it all out.

Actually we have a great idea in mind for the air charge. Somewhat borrowed from the 2002 Nissan Skyline GTR (Hint, Hint).

LM

[Mansier]

Today I, along with the assistance of Chris Stiffler, took to the task of removing some of the extra metal from the car. I was able to remove the inside of the door panels, inside of the rear quarter panels, and the front bumper. We were working on the roof section, but have yet to get the entire section out. Still to come would be the rear deck area behind where the rear seat used to be, the trunk lid, and anything else that doesn't hold a real load (as the cage will do all that for us). So far here is what we had in 4.5 hours:

Front Bumper: 32 lbs (everything back to where the radiator support sits)
Doors Inner Panels: 11 lbs. each
Quarter Panel Inner Panels: 3.5 lbs each

Total 61 lbs

Total time in the car so far is about 70 hours (didn't post some here!)
Total weight out of the car that will stay out is over 830 now.

We figure we can get another 30-50 lbs of metal out of the interior before we really hit the structure that can't be taken out. The rear computers are going to be moved up to the passenger seat footwell and the battery and battery box will be moved up the passenger seat area. All this should save us about 10 lbs in wiring or more.

We will most likely be changing to a TKO Transmission, and so have an AOD with 4 miles since the rebuild up for purchase. It comes with the shifter and lines. Make an offer!

Not sure if we had posted this image here yet. It is an artists rendition of the car when it is finished. The wing may be a bit different, but the idea is the same.

LM

http://www.racenasa.com/mansier_tbird.jpg

[fast Ed]

Great to hear that you're making progress with this ... 830 lbs. out of the car, WOW !! That's fantastic. Hopefully you can keep the cage light, but strong enough to do the job. Really looking forward to hearing how you fare vs. the traditional American Iron cars.


cheers
Ed N.

[Doug Franklin]

What did you decide on the front K-Member?

[Mansier]

We decided to start the season with a mostly stock geometry setup. Using the stock K-Members. As the year goes on, we will use the bigger breaks in the series schedule to try and test new parts. We are hoping that by the end of the year we will have tubed front and rear K-Members with new A-Arms.

LM

[Mansier]

Today's work took out the roof panel (the sun-roof motor frame, etc), the skin off the inside of the trunk lid, removed the trunk lid lifting arms. The roof panel is mostly glued to the roof, but rivited to the roof panel itself around the opening. Very time consuming to get out. The trunk skin came out very cleanly, leaving a piece that is still fairly heavy (we are regulated to use the stock outside trunk panel), but the piece came out nice. Watch yourself if you are taking out the trunk arms as the are VERY spring loaded, and should come out with care. Here it is:

Roof Panel: 8lbs
Trunk inside skin: 10lbs
Trunk arms and springs: 3lbs

We are in the finishing stages of talking to Wilwood about brakes. If you are thinking about upgrading, let me know if you want me to try for a group purchase of some kind. They make some absolutely outrageous brakes, that are not nearly as expensive as Alcons, Brembos, etc.

LM

PS: Did anyone buy a hood from Hairyglass.com?

[Doug Franklin]

No Harry Glass hood for me until I pay off all the other parts.

Brakes are a big issue for me so interested in a groupe buy. I still need to check source in Houston as it was to be same brand I believe. Was looking at new rotors with Al centers then. Let me know. RussellR had a something as well need to ask if more than one in that oportunity.

Been a bit sick to do much.

[cougarsc]

Hey Mansier, can you use any of these parts?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=6763&item=2447799969

[Mansier]

Good find, but probably not. Although if the windshield was a polycarbonate we could have used that. I definitely need to find some 93+ spindles soon, and get the rear hubs as well.

We are trying to see how many of the computers we can move into the passenger area today. Yippee! I'll post up a pic of the car later.

LM

Edit: BTW: The Auto Tranny weighs 179 lbs without fluids. Made the lexan quarter windows last night, saved another 3 lbs

For some pictures of what the car looks like now, visit: http://www.racenasa.com/galleries/supercoupe/index.html

[super6turbo4]

Just to comment on the Wilwood Brakes. I have the 13" 6 piston setup for the mustang on my Bird. They are not a direct bolt on as they take some modifications to the bracket to fit our spindles. For a race car they would be superb but I would not recommend them for a street car. They make alot of noise under light braking and enough brake dust that people ask where I got my "smoked" Steeda Ultralites.

Again, for a race car they would be great, but there is a reason they are less than the competition. Refinement.

[SC UL8R1990]

just curious.....any updated pics as of today? 12/18

thanks
walter

[Mansier]

I forgot to take the camera to the shop today, so no new ones. It does look a bit different than the photos I posted in my last post. I cut out the radiator support and part of the front brace (area over the rad support), which took out another 10 lbs. Cutting the springs to size was another 10 lbs, and taking out the single layer steel in the rear upper tray behind the rear seat was another 5 lbs (I left all the double layer stuff for structure). So:

Rad Support 10
Springs 10
Rear Tray 5

Total: 25
Total overall: Approx. 900

The rad support area left a perfect hole for the powerstroke intercooler and 31x19 radiator that we will be laying somewhat horizontal. Tomorrow David Dalke is coming by to help move as much of the electronics to the passenger seat area.

Walter: You live in Medina? We're neighbors! The shop is on Lake Road! We'll be out there tomorrow morning if you want to stop by.

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

Walter: You live in Medina? We're neighbors! The shop is on Lake Road! We'll be out there tomorrow morning if you want to stop by.

are you kidding me? lol i seriously had no idea. Wow , what a small world. What shop is it again? I live 10 minutes from lake road. You must know George D., ive only met him once.


i may be able to drop by tomorrow but i dunno. Either way im sure ill be able to drop by sometime!!probably on a lunch break during work:p

[Mansier]

We may or may not be there over lunches. Give a call at 330.421.1900 before you come out. I don't know George D. Does he live in Medina as well? Sometimes I wish this thing would be street legal when finished. I could terrorize the import guys!

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

george d. is the owner of this site , hehe. I have only met him once, and that was before i got my SC. anyways ill give a call if i can make it sometime. Ill keep watching this thread for details

[Doug Franklin]

Thanks for pics. That was a looker car no?

Mansier I was looking at triming the edges of the hood, trunk, etc so that the fold on edges would be eleminated, removing all inner frame, and just use skin. Is that legal in NASA if I keep it hinged?

[Mansier]

With the American Iron rules, you have to use at least the trunk outer skin. The hood is free as are the bumpers for materials. You could pin them or hing them.

Yes, this was a very cherry 1992 car that was garaged day and night.

LM

Edit: David Dalke was out today Dec 19. We worked on the wiring for a good 12 hours (total). We now have the front wiring harnesses down to about 25 wires going through the firewall, and the rest including any computers, fuse boxes, etc. have been moved to the passenger seat footwell. So far another 12 lbs off the wiring. Probably another 12 coming!

[Mansier]

Did some work on the rear of the car with co-driver Rick Gilbert. We took out the rear subframe, and weighed a few items. Here is what things weigh back there:

Rear subframe empty: 76lbs
Rear Differential (no axles): 84 lbs
H-Arms: 26 lbs each
Front Subframe: 50 lbs

The mounts for the H-Arms flexed a lot when we took the bolts out. The whole subframe could use some work. We might look into tubing this, as the weight savings could be good for the more simple subframe design.

I am going to do a search, but does anyone know how much the Aluminum Mark VIII H-Arms weigh? And Cobra Rear?

LM

[Doug Franklin]

Mansier are you for sure going to tube rear subframe?

Would like pics and price if you do. I am not quit ready with the car I am stripping to take to Hanna just yet for that and cage quote. Interesting weights you have. I could not believe the rear end myself which is where I wanted to start when the K-Member deal came up.

Since I have paid for K-Member how far back do you want an engine and how low?

[fast Ed]

Larry, one of the local SCCoO guys was running a Cobra / Mark VIII style diff. carrier in his 4.6 Bird. On a bathroom scale, I'm pretty sure the difference in weight was only about 6 or 7 pounds.

As for strengthening the rear subframe, definitely a good idea. Rich Thomson has a how-to article about doing just that on his site, here's the direct link :

http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12how-to/irs/irs.html

That's something I should probably be doing with my big turd of a car too, with the abuse I give it. ;) :p


cheers
Ed N.

[Mansier]

We will be tubing the rear, but would need to test it quite a few times before opening it up for purchase. I'll post up pictures as it developes. Probably some time in January before that comes about.

If we were to buy one, I would want it pretty far, like 3 inches back (need to take out the windshield wiper motor for that.). Maybe someone could answer this: With the engine that far back, and using the MAC shorty headers, would we come into contact with the steering shaft?

Anyone know the weights on those aluminum H-Arms and Rear Differential?

LM

Ed: Thanks for the link. We have it printed. It would certainly help the stock K-Member as it flexes badly at the suspension mounting points! For racing we might need to take it a bit farther. We'll keep working on it, and keep giving suggestions. They are very helpful!

That rear diff weight isn't a very large difference. Darn!

[Dick Hughes]

Does the NASA American Iron rule change now placing a torque limit as well as HP to weight limit negate the possible SC motor advantage over the V8s? Why this change-did they see you coming? Good luck and glad to see you're still proceeding with the project.

[Mansier]

The new torque rule does hurt our advantage quite a bit. We were planning on running about 9.5:1 RWHP (the 2003 limit) and about 8:1 RWTQ. With the new 9:1 TQ limit we have to change the cam to get the numbers closer together, and may eventually have to give up HP. We'll see what we can do with the dyno to get closer to the HP figure. David Dalke is the man with the motor skills for the car!

LM

[kborton]

I'm sure there's another 100 lbs in there Lawrence, just let me come over with the chain saw...

[Doug Franklin]

I have considered all along cutting out the inner metal in the roof and side pillars on cars with cage. Just wondering if you feel diferent?

Also I was going to cut more of the underside of the trunk and hood than what your showing.

[Mansier]

We aren't going to use the stock hood, so right now it is only around for fitment, and will be for sale soon. We plan on using a hairy glass hood, or something similar.

The trunk lid is completely gutted. There is no metal left on the inside at all. We will most likely remove the license plate area as well for wing fitment.

We looked at taking out the pillar metal, but I would rather have some cage structure in prior to doing that. The car is still plenty stiff, and has not bent or moved on the jack stands at all.

LM

[Mansier]

Started on the cage this evening. Got the main hoop done. I will post some pics a bit later in the cage build up.

We won an EBAY auction for a Powerstroke Intercooler. Along with the Griffin Radiator, they will sit in the front end very low to the ground semi-horizontal. That area will be fabbed up just after the cage is done.

More to come!

LM

[Mansier]

So the back half of the cage has been fabbed. In the picture below, the tubes that go from the bottom of the main hoop to the shock tower are missing, but are there now. Here is a picture of the rear cage, and some of the welds.


Also ported the exhaust of the heads (turned out better than I expected), the blower casing, and today I am on to the intake and port matching the intake tube. Here is a picture of the heads that didn't come out real well:
We are also putting in the halo at the top of the cage and the front braces. The X braces for the doors will be going in last after we finish with the electrics, and mount some of the other hardware. The cage will also go through the front firewall to the shock towers.

LM

Here is the link to the pictures: http://www.racenasa.com/galleries/Supercoupe_04/index.html

[fast Ed]

Looking good Lawrence ... it will be interesting to see the final configuration of the cage, and the cooling system / intercooler.




cheers
Ed N.

[Mansier]

More pictures of the cage are now available at the link in the previous post. Gussets in the top of the cage, the cage going through the firewall, seem welding the front shock towers. Got the heads on the ARP studs today, and David D got the wiring sorted. All of the computers are now on the inside of the car, and the wiring is "Much Less". Will be ordering the bushings next week, the konis, and fabbing the motor mounts (pushing back 3 inches or so) this next week.

LM

[Mansier]

The cage is all welded together now, with the exception of the dash bar. We will put in the dash bar when we fit the driver, pedals, steering column Monday or Tuesday. The pictures are available through the previous link (later today, Sunday).

You may notice the computers sitting on the floor in the passenger side to lower the weight (less wires and lower in the chassis), and keep them out of the heat of the engine bay. It is basically done, and we have three boxes full of old wiring and computers for spare wiring now.

The wing internals are done, and waiting for the 6061 T4 aluminum that will skin it. Pictures once it is done.

The brake package has also been finalized. Brembo Calipers with 13" rotors for the front (like the Mustang Cobra R), and Wilwood with 12" rotors on the rear. The rears will take some time to fab the mounts correctly.

We may be changing back to the M5R2 (were thinking T-5) for at least the first two races (Nashville March 13-14, and Mid Ohio April 2-4). Putting in the T-5, etc. is going to take some time that we may be out of.

We are scheduled to get on the dyno February 28th, and test at BeaveRun Motorsports Complex or Putnam Park Feb. 29th.

The rear end subframe will not be ready for the first two races, but we are hoping for the third which is Putnam Park May 22-23. It would be a tube version of the current subframe. It has been measured, but making the jig and putting it together properly will take some time.

Has anyone ordered a hood from Hairy Glass? We will probably be doing that tomorrow.

If anyone wants to come join us at the track with NASA, we'd love to have you! You can be a part of our hospitality area, or even bring the car and drive it in the events! There are races during the weekend, and High Performance Driving Events for those who would rather not race, but drive the track. Instructors and classroom time is also provided for more novice drivers. More information available at www.racenasa.com and registration is available at www.nasaproracing.com . It would be great to have a bunch of Supercoupes and T-Birds out dominating the track!

LM

[Mansier]

Lots of work done lately! We also ordered most, if not all of the final parts.

We modified the rear subframe by cleaning then welding the top cup "washers" to the rear subframe. Not a huge change, but the compliance is certainly changed, and if bolted well should provide some improvement over the super soft stock units.

Ordered and received every bushing mn12performance sells. The rear knuckles are perhaps the most difficult part of the swap. The stock bushings are in there big time. Looks like we also have some help coming from George on getting the stock hubs out for the Mustang hubs. Thanks George!

Brembos for the front, Wilwoods for the rear. We will have to fab a bracket for the Wilwoods. In putting the Brembos together on the fronts, I weighed them. 93 spindle with caliper, pads, and 13 inch rotor is 35 lbs. Stock is almost 40. Who would have thought we could lose weight with a rotor that is 2 inches bigger? Lots of weight savings in the caliper.

David D. Is doing a masterful job on the wiring. It is truly one of a kind, and looking good.

Got the fitting done on the powerstroke intercooler. It is sitting a bit to the drivers side to help the inlet/outlet clear, and laying at about 30 degrees from flat. The radiator sits on top of it, and the splitter just below. It would be very difficult to use this setup on a stock car, as it required some modification to the front bumper, etc for fitting. The inlet tube will also come through the area usually used by the fuse box and battery. Did I mention it is BIG!?

The wheels came in. They are CCW wheels, but a bit big for our rules. We are in the process of getting new inner shells (they are 3 piece) for them to fit the rules. Should be done soon.

Going to use a hairy glass hood. Big weight savings. Also have the aluminum rear Mark VIII rear lower A-Arms coming in 3 days.

Lots to do yet!

LM

[Mansier]

Has anyone mentioned lately how much of "THE MAN" George Davenport is? He really came through for us this evening by bringing the IRS Knuckly Hub tools out to the shop. We had the old hubs out and the new one's in in about 1 hour. It went very smoothly with his help. Thank you George!

After that, I turned to the rear suspension. If you get the Mark VIII rear lower control arms be prepared for a different design. There are only two "ears" which meet the knuckly on the bottom. The pieces are much lighter, about 11-12 lbs each lighter. Got the rear suspension almost done had it not been for a upper control arm bolt missing.

The front suspension is done, Koni's with cut down springs. We need some 93 swaybar links if anyone has any! And 92ish rear swaybar links! Our rears were beat.

On a worse note: We took the main and rod bearings out of the motor, and it was a good thing we did. Some were showing a slight amount of copper, with the front main showing the most. Not very alarming, but a few competition weekends would have done the motor in. However, upon putting the motor back together, everything went well until the front main bearing. It is tight. And is binding the crank. It shows .001 clearance (the others are all .0015 to .002), but after turning the crank a few times by hand, it binds.

Most of the parts are here. The only things we are still to order are the lexan windshield and hairyglass hood. Probably tomorrow or Wednesday.

The rest of the car is coming together. Thanks again to George!

LM

[fast Ed]

Lawrence, for the rear stab. bar links, especially on a lowered car, it makes more sense to remove those small "adapter brackets" from the end of the stock bar that the link eyes go to. Then you can just use generic aftermarket stud / stud mount stab. bar links in the correct length for your ride height ... Energy Suspension has them listed in various lengths.


cheers,
Ed N.

[SC UL8R1990]

looks like everything is coming together! ill have to stop by sometime.

take er easy

[Mansier]

Give a call before you come out. 330.421.1900

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

will do

[Doug Franklin]

Originally posted by Mansier
The only things we are still to order are the lexan windshield and hairyglass hood. Probably tomorrow or Wednesday.

The rest of the car is coming together. Thanks again to George!

LM

Good comunity.

Mansier,
Just curious where you are getting Lexan windshield? Only place I found to do it so far is Percy's High Performance, Inc. for $400 for 3/16" and they do no other windows for our cars. percy@advertisnet.com

[Mansier]

Muscle Motorsports has then 1/4 inch thick for 95-97 Thunderbirds from NASCAR cars. Anyone know if a 95 windshield is the same size or close to a 92?

LM

BTW: The stock windshield is 30lbs. The 1/4 inch lexan will probably be almost 20.

[Doug Franklin]

Can't tell you what a relief your answer is to me. Been looking for some place like this for awhile. Now why does the name and logo look familier to me?

Thank You, Thank You:

http://store.yahoo.com/musclemotorsouth/index.html

[fast Ed]

Lawrence, I know that 94 - up cars have a different windshield part number, but I believe that it may just be for the changed "button" attachment for the rear-view mirror. An auto glass shop could probably tell you for sure. I don't see why it wouldn't go, the part numbers for the outside trim mouldings on the windshields are the same for 1989 - 1997.

cheers,
Ed N.

[Randy N Connie]

Mansier: How is your project coming along? Were you able to make it
to the track yet.

RANDY

[Mansier]

We finished the intercooler tubing, and other plumbing today. With about one more days work the car should be ready to start. One more and it will be on the track. We missed the first race of the season, but Mid Ohio is coming up April 2-4, and there are 18 cars in American Iron and American Iron Extreme. Everyone is invited to come down and check it out. Entry if free, and the races are Saturday and Sunday.

Special thanks to David Dalke. He is flat out THE MAN!

LM

Pictures will be up after Mid Ohio.

[TbirdSC93]

Do you know if this will be televised...like on Speed or sumthin...itd be totally sweet to see you guys runnin on the track....

Good Luck!!!! Do us proud!!

[Mansier]

While there will be a film crew there, I doubt it will make Speed Channel. The event at Mid Ohio in August 20-22 will probably be there though! I'll see what the film crew comes up with, and if we can post it to the internet.

Wahoo! On Track!

LM

[fast Ed]

Hey Lawrence

Any more news / photos on the project ??


cheers,
Ed N.

[Mansier]

Unfortunately I cannot get the car to run correctly. It seems to be fuel pressure/fuel pump related, but without the ace wrench of David Dalke (he's been traveling quite a bit) I am hopeless to figure it out. Here is what it does:

I can start it.
It runs for about 1 second and then dies.
At the fuel rail there is then almost 0 fuel pressure.
There is pressure there after I turn the key to "ON"

I can also keep it coughing by feathering the throttle.
Then it revs up a bunch
then coughs some more.

I have checked the wiring connections, plug wires, and plugged all the vacuum openings. Thoughts anyone! Help! Have to get this car on the track!

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

Hey Mansier, i posted in the technical forum about your problem. Should find something out soon. The title is " Fuel Pressure Problem?"

-Walter

[Mansier]

Thanks for the help!

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

no problem, hey could you post up some new pics or email them to me at scul8r1990@zoominternet.net

thanks !

[TbirdSC93]

Id like to see some pics of this race ready SC....I hope you guys get this fuel problem solved..Im really lookin forward to hearing how you guys do.!

[SeanMatteson]

It runs for about 1 second and then dies.
At the fuel rail there is then almost 0 fuel pressure.
There is pressure there after I turn the key to "ON"

Well, it seems to me that your problem lies between the tank and the fuel injectors, with the special exception being that you might be experiencing a problem with the pressure regulator. Could you have one or more injectors sticking wide open? ...Might result in flooding, and the fact that the pressure at the rails drops to zero after stalling (or should the pump keep the pressure there until you turn the ignition switch to 'off'?). What other symptoms are you experiencing? Does it smell of raw fuel? Have you got any way of obtaining air/fuel readings while it's running?

...I think it's quite obvious, Mansier, that you've got lots of people here very interested in seeing you make this project work. Perhaps if you can provide a little more information, we can pull together to help you properly diagnose and resolve this issue.

Best regards,

Sean

[Mansier]

David Dalke was able to stop by this evening for a bit. We found the fuel pump wasn't totally sealed, and that really helped the engine quite a bit. Still running a bit evil, but it sounds wicked at 4,000 RPM! Putting on the Air Filter also helped, but the engine is struggling a bit. Running, but struggling. The crank pulley was also vibrating, so that will have to be changed. There may be more to come.

Also, as an aside: With the MAC mustang headers you may need to change the spark plug wires, or just one or two of the wires a bit. #3 is almost right on the header, and will certainly get burned up.

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

were the mac headers a direct swap? with very little modification ( small dent)??

thanks
walter

[Mansier]

They actually fit very close to the steering arm. However, with the torque of the motor, they would connect most likely. I heated it, and dented it (probably too much), but it doesn't appear a whole lot is necessary. Just the close proximity of the plug wires is the problem that might need to be dealt with. The other issue is the air sensor on the driver side header had to have the wires lengthened and tapped into the collector. There isn't one there on that side of the car normally.

If I think of more, I'll post it!

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

thanks a bunch! looks like i just found my new headers :D what year mustang were the headers for? 99-01?

get some new pics up too!! im dying to see em'

[Mansier]

Is this George? I emailed you a couple to put up (if not George, sorry!).

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

nope not george :D

[Mansier]

It's official. Medina, OH has more SC's than I thought!

LM

If anyone can host some pictures, I'll put them up.

[SC UL8R1990]

my email is scul8r1990@zoominternet.net

ill post them up for ya

btw- does your shop do custom exhaust set-ups? im really itching to get the exhaust done on my sc. i can supply the high flo cats, resonator, and the mufflers. I just want a good quality job done. :cool:

[Mansier]

Our bender can only really bend a quality roll cage type thickness. We tried to use it for exhaust and it buggered up the tubes. I'll send some over to you.

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

heres the pictures that mans sent me :eek: :D :cool:

[Mansier]

heres the pictures that mans sent me :eek: :D :cool:

We'll see how it does.

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

well i personally cant wait to see it. when do you expect completion now?

[Mansier]

With the exception of hood pins and trunk pins, the car is complete. Just have to make it run!

LM

We are hoping for a test at a local race track next week.

[Doug Franklin]

Mansier does it run any different if you unplug MAF?

[Mansier]

Haven't tried that.

LM

What would that do?

[Doug Franklin]

Just a quick test of the MAF. I had some similar experience then jerked one from another SC I had. The dying part bothered me the most. If you have overcome that then I feel MAF is OK. Disconecting mine stoped the dying then I changed it. I am certainly not a a tuner of these engines, but do switch parts around looking for quick fixes at times.

Re-reading this maybe David fixed the dying after a second. Wonder if clean and right size. Temp variation shure affects my engines and not sure what to do about that yet.

[Mansier]

The T-Bird Runs! David D. to the rescue again. A loose fuel pump seal and some other nick nacks kept the car from running properly (low fuel pressure, etc.). We have a few things to clean up and finish, but the car is ready to hit the track in about 8 hours work. Going to hit the dyno ASAP, and see how it is really running. More to come, with more pictures (check the pics on page 7 of this).

LM

[TbirdSC93]

well its been five days!! whats the word????!

[Mansier]

Finding and shop at the moment. Hopefully more to add this weekend.

LM

[Mansier]

The Mansier Motorsports Thunderbird hit the race track this weekend at the NASA OH/IN Putnam Park event! This was a testing session for the car, and for the most part it went better than planned! Here are some things we found from the weekend:

The Good:

- With the Powerstroke Intercooler and Griffin Radiator the engine temp never got over 185 in the 85 degree humid weather. Even after 15 laps.
- The stock oil system was at least adequate for the first weekend, registering a LOW of 60 psi in the corners, and 70 down the straights.
- Good handling from the get go (although the front right camber bold was stripped by the alignment shop, and we went from 2.5 degrees negative camber to probably 5 or more negative.
- The car had good power, and good torque out of the corners
- The brakes (front brembos) were more than enough. Putnam is not a brake intensive track, but we had plenty of brakes.
- The aluminum flywheel was awesome. It reved immediately. We never had a problem starting from a stop. Just remember not to hit the gas as hard as usual because it will rev up like crazy.
- The KONI shocks were good.
- With the powerstroke intercooler, 3 inch intercooler pipes, exhaust ported heads, Ported SC housing, ported intake, MAC headers, and straight pipes, the 5% pulley made a high of 11 lbs. The exhaust gaskets with ARP studs can easily handle that.

Some things to work on:

- The stock fuel tank is not good in stock form. We pushed fuel out of all the vents in left hand corners, and once we were about 1 gallon short of a full tank it starved the fuel pump in right hand corners. I would go to full throttle at the apex and the car would die, then roar back, then die again, killing several seconds per lap.
- Even with the venting we did of the oil system, more is necessary. Oil came pouring into the catch can from the right valve cover.
- The gearing was a little off for Putnam Park in the transmission. The torque helped a lot with this though.
- The car is loading up or something. When we were getting ready to come out of the pits, and would rev and re-rev the engine, it would have some black smoke come out the back. It would idle at about 900 rpm.


Generally the car went effortlessly. There is a lot more left in it than what we drove. It was wild to follow some of the corvettes and such that were in the school, and watch them rolling in the corners, while we were basically flat.

The exhaust note was not nearly as annoying as we thought it might be. We were running a pretty ghetto exhaust with the 3.8 Mustang MAC headers into 2 inch flex pipe and 2 inch straight pipes (no mufflers). We will redo that, but we just wanted to get the car on the track.

Thanks to all that have helped. There is a lot more left in the car, and we need more help!

LM

[TbirdSC93]

Thats awesome...sounds like things worked out pretty well!! Hope things just start getting better!

Got any pics of the race ready SC???

[Doug Franklin]

Mansier I read this with enthusiasm. Maybe I should have said something about the front right. But all my experience is with stock heavy cars. The older 90 I can balance out with tire pressure. All I have is excuses for not having a light weight out on track like yourself. Seems work is demanding all my time on these airplanes, barf!

Love hearing what you said about Aluminum flywheel.

As I recall you have cut down stock springs and seems you have stock sway bars, or got a heavier one for the rear.

Man it was fun just reading.

Look forward to your reports.

[Mansier]

Will post pics pretty soon.

Stock springs cut down a bit more than 2 coils in the front, and 1 1/2 in the rear. Stock swaybars front and rear.

The car sits at about 6 inches off the ground (measured at the bodywork between front and rear wheels). Must be plenty lower than stock, but not as much as you would think with all of the metal cut off. BTW this takes about 6 lbs off the weight of each wheel assembly.

I didn't mention that we had no wheel hop at all. Not even close. Not when hammering it out of the pits. We had taken off the plates that mount on top of the rubber bushings in the rear subframe and welded them to the subframe. Then remounted the subframe to the frame with the stock bolts.

LM

[fast Ed]

Lawrence, good to hear the car made it on to the track finally, with relatively few new race car woes.

I'm a bit surprised at the fuel starvation problem, I've run my 95 down as low as 1/4 tank while doing open-track events, and haven't experienced that.

Keep us updated !! :)

cheers,
Ed N.

[Mansier]

It's a 92 tank with a 255 lb pump. Only right hand corners, BIG choke, then back, then choke, then back. Only when I go to WOT at the apex. Any less, and it would go. But who needs less!

LM

[fast Ed]

HA !! That reminds me of a quote I heard years ago, attributed to John Wyer, who ran the GT40 Lemans program for the Gulf team in the late 60s. One of the drivers was complaining about a stumble at part throttle, to which Mr. Wyer replied, "what the bloody h*ll are you using part throttle for??" :D :p LOL

cheers,
Ed N.

[Doug Franklin]

Hmm, I never had starvation either, but I don't have modified car on track. Since MSR is a bit hard on brakes maybe the corner speeds are not high enough. 70-80 on fastest. Ran my 95 down to almost empty a few times. 90 down to 1/4 tank.

[Dick Hughes]

Running modded 94 5speed at Spring Mtn. course (outside LasVegas) with less than 1\4 tank, gas pickup would suck air on sharp curves with considerable pop sound when cutting back on.

[XR7 Dave]

I guess the Mansier Monster is outhandling the beejeebers out of you weekend warriors. :D

[fast Ed]

That's likely it. Amazing what a 500 lb. diet will do for you !! :eek:

cheers,
Ed N.

[Mansier]

More like 1000 lbs. The car weighs 2780 with 7 gallons of fuel, full cage, all fluids, etc. Nice! And we could still lose another 100lbs or so (hood is fileted but still weighs 38 lbs, windshields are still in, etc. Lightweight Bird!

LM

[Doug Franklin]

Yea, beats the pance off of me.

Cutting roof inner support out before cage. Cut the dang thang in half and take out 4" where the post is? That knocks me out of NASA if I cut it out of floor pan, but oh well. Need a new drive shaft anyway. I just hate those little SPEC Miata's out there. So considering all to get as close to 2100-2200 as I feel practical at this point. At least it should be a good MSR car.

[fast Ed]

More like 1000 lbs. The car weighs 2780 with 7 gallons of fuel, full cage, all fluids, etc. Nice! And we could still lose another 100lbs or so (hood is fileted but still weighs 38 lbs, windshields are still in, etc. Lightweight Bird!

LM

WOW !! :eek: :eek:
I didn't realize that you ended up finding that much weight to take out of it. Hopefully with some sorting, it will be a competitive car.

cheers,
Ed N.

[Mansier]

We left the second skin supports that run along the pillars and around the roof. However, we cut out the moon roof supports, etc., the door panels, rear quarter metal, the single skin in the rear seat decklid, and fileted the hood and trunklid. I figure I have about 100+ hours in just metal weight reduction. The sound deadening is out as well. It is all out! About 60 lbs of wiring, the entire dash, etc. The only things stock on the inside of the car are the computers which used to sit front and rear (ABS and Engine+PCM only), the mirror, the dash cluster, and the steering column. The rest is fabbed/gone.

NEXT RACE: BeaveRun Motorsports Complex in Wampum, PA. This is exit mile marker 10 on the PA turnpike. About 1 1/2 hours from Cleveland, 30 minutes from Pittsburgh. We hope to be racing it Sunday, and sorting it on Saturday.

LM

[Mansier]

Hit the dyno with the T-Bird today.

243 HP
324 TQ

10.5:1 AF ratio
about 10-11 psi of boost.

We have some work to do. The AF ratio goes to 1:1 when you crack it wide open. Seems that was the problem when going to WOT in the corners, not the fuel issue (might still be, but this seems more likely).

So we need some help! Why is it going so incredibly rich when we crack the throttle wide open, and any thoughts on how to lean it out. Here is what we are running:

Stock bottom end, cam and all.
42 lb injectors
77 mm MAF
5% pulley
Ported, Heads (exhausts), intake, blower housing.
Powerstroke Intercooler
3 inch intercooler tubing
MAC 3.8 Mustang headers
Stock colectors and 2 inch exhaust (we were in a pinch. Open to ideas. The pipes end at the end of the transmission currently).
255 fuel pump
I believe everything else is stock.

Thoughts? We have access to an EEC Tuner. We could use a bunch more HP, but the TQ number is perfect (per the rules).

LM

[Doug Franklin]

The idiot I am I have no idea agian. It has been so long since my head was under the hood. And now more work coming my way. Well are you loosing air or gaining fuel? Sure is a big pump. I guess I have an idea of how I would try working through it, but sure it is not scientific as the good tuners around. I guess it would help to swap back to stock parts one at a time. Would be nice if you had a second car for street to swap things around. Maybe post in other forums.

But on HP I wonder if a similar set up to what XR7 Dave has in the SWB 003 would work for you. I like how it pulls so hard mid to high RPM. Felt way more suited for road track. Says the outlet temp is lower as well. He was down here for Power Tour and got a ride in SWB and the XR7. :eek: :D :D

[Mansier]

The Mansier Motorsports Supercoupe got on track this weekend, with a trip to Gingerman Raceway in South Haven, Michigan. This is a 1.88 mile 11 turn road course with plenty of handling corners, and some short straights. The weekend was promising! Here are a few highlights, and thoughts.

After battling a starting problem, we picked up a new coil pack and plug wires. They seemed to solve the problem as the car started right up. We also wrapped the SC outlet tube in some heat shielding to help with the temps near the coil, as we think the temperatures are baking the electronics. The fix didn't last long, as the starting problem came back later in the day. We will be heat shielding every electrical part now, as we have to think the issue is very much heat related.

As for engine heat? We have no problem cooling this car. With the Griffin 31x19 radiator and massive intercooler, the car never got over 195. Quite a change from most race cars.

The car is definitely down on Horsepower compared to the other cars out there. This is our own fault, as we have not really built a new motor, but improved the stock one. With 245 rwhp, and 333 rwtq the acceleration is just not that of the 300+ hp Mustangs. HOWEVER: The car can handle with anything out there. The car handles well enough to help us achieve a lap time in mid pack, even with the HP disadvantage.

We had a problem with the suspension that we need to clear up before Mid Ohio. After running mid pack in practice Sunday, the car kept losing more and more time on the lap charts. The front end started to push incredibly, and during the race it was all I could do to keep it going around corners. The problem was the bushing on the front of the lower control arm. Normally it is a two piece bushing that is tightened on the subframe. After the race we found that the bushing on the front side of the subframe was completely gone on both sides. Not even a trace of it. This meant that the front of the lower control arm was just moving around in the now large hole in the subframe, not good for handling! Other than the AJE subframe with heim joints, what other fix could there be? Putting in a new set of bushings for each weekend could be a temporary fix, but this was kind of scary really.

Race Report:

After stalling on the grid, and having to refire we started from the back of the pack. At the green flag, I quickly picked up 2 positions with a three wide pass in turn one. I picked up another 2 positions with the torque of the SC in turn 2. There is a short straight there that the SC really eats up. Going into turn 3 I picked up one more position for five so far. We almost picked up another into turn 5, but waited patiently to pick up 2 more into turn 7. We finished the first lap passing 7 cars, and looking to catch up with another pack. The car was very hard to turn, and on lap three I spun it in turn 3. A bunch of cars went by, and it took the next 15 laps to make up the positions. The car was evil by the end of the race darting around on the straight, and turning like a dump truck, but we finished ahead of 10 cars, and got home in one piece! It was a great milestone for us to finish the race, and we are already looking forward to fixing the suspension problem, and going to the front of the pack.

Also: The front Brembo brakes, and rear stock brakes never ever got soft. Tons of stopping power for the entire race. If you are looking for brakes, I would very much recommend them. The Powerstroke intercooler never got near heat soak as we were able to run the same speed down the straights throughout the race.

It was good stuff. The T-Bird did come in heavier than we had weighed at the shop. I guess we must have added more weight in than I thought as we came in at the 2900 range without driver.

If anyone has ideas about the starting and bushings, let us know! BTW: I started it this morning, and it fired right up and idled without any help.

Next event April 20-22 at Mid Ohio Sports Car Course!

I have some pictures if someone can help post them.

LM

[SC UL8R1990]

sounds like a good time, and seems like youve got a couple bugs on your bad isidee. Im sure she'll scoot once you work them out!

btw- you can send pics here scul8r1990@zoominternet.net

[007_SuperCoupe]

The starting issue could be the cam sensor...If the EEC doesn't get a signal from it, then the eec will randomly fire the coils. Basically about every 3rd try will get a start. Not sure if that's it, but it is definately cheaper than another coil...

Have you given poly bushings any thought? They're not too much more than the OEM rubber bushings but will last a lot longer. And from what you are describing, it sounds like your front strut rod bushings are what are being eaten up. The lower control arm includes the ball joint where the spindle mounts, the lower shock mount and then mounts at the subframe (1 bushing there). The strut rod connects the lower control arm infront of the shock mount and then connects to the front subframe. There are 2 bushings on each location, for a total of 4 on each strut rod.

I don't use my sc for racing (yet) so I'm not 100% sure how the durability is of the poly bushings under those conditions. It will require you to re-use your old control arms and press in the poly bushings where required. I've become very familiar with the front suspension on these beasts as of late since I'm in the middle of putting a whole new front suspension on my SC. Plus I have replaced the strut rod bushings on my '89 SC last year. So I've been learning about it for a while now. Let me know if you have any questions.

[Doug Franklin]

Lawrence,
Been hoping to see a report like this for some time. Yes a short strait at MSR is the only place I gain and turns are "even" to "better than" against a lot of cars which surprise all.

I noticed the bushings are bad on both SCs I have had on the track. Probably a contributor to the 95 being such a pig.

I have no suggestions. All my efforts are into this dang government airplane, but at least I have a job for now. Seems I have a set of poly bushings but no time to work on the birds just yet. Have not been to the track since last time it rained. I just go in the wet anymore as I do not have to overwork the engine in those conditions. Not near as fun.

Doug

[Mansier]

Thank you for the thoughts. The bushings in the car include every poly bushing that mn12performance makes. So the bushing that is now "missing" was poly. It seems as if we chewed the bushing up over the weekend, so we might have to replace it and really watch it this time.

We have quite a few items to complete before Mid Ohio. We are going for a bit more power, and considering 3.73 gears.

The rear suspension with the Lincoln A-Arms was pretty good. No wheel hop, but a just a bit of trouble putting power down on fast corners onto a straight. We are going to work with the shocks a bit.

LM

[Doug Franklin]

Maybe the rubber is better way to go until it is gone. Mine are rubber and have been on track many times. Believe it took awhile for them to lose chunks. They need replacement and sounds like I better not use poly.

[Mansier]

We will probably go with the poly again and monitor it, with a rubber back up. Not sure what to do as we really didn't watch it come apart. The handling just kept going away.

Anyone for a T-Bird get together at Mid Ohio August 21-22!?

LM

[Mike8675309]

Check the SCCoA events forum. I think I just saw a thread posted about a BBQ over at someones house in Ohio... not sure how close to mid it is.

Are you having issues with the bushing at the lower control arm, or at the frame? I'm guessing it's at the lower control arm due to the higher level of articulation that joint will see.

I haven't seen that joint taken apart, but I wonder if you used some sort of heavy steel cupped washers on the outside of that location to help hold the bushing in place and restrict the motion that could be trying to pull or push the shaft through the lower control arm. I'm not sure if you could do much without restricting the movement of the joint, but ya never know until you try.

[SC UL8R1990]

Awesome desktop pic! :eek: :cool:

very sweet.

[Mansier]

Rich T at mn12performance is working with us on another set of the poly bushings. We are going to monitor their progress this time and report back. Don't count them out yet, as we may have had a bad set or something. Anyone have a good 75-80 rwhp they can loan us?

LM

[BikerSC]

Man I wish I knew you were racing at Gingerman. I live not too far from there. I would have difinetely come to watch. What day was the racing?

Glad to hear you had a successful run. It must be good to see it finish and see the results of all of that work. Now you got something to work from.

Good luck,

-Steve

[Mansier]

The car got on track for the most part Sunday July 18th. The rest of the schedule is:

August 20-22 Mid Ohio Sports Car Course, Mansfield Ohio
September 4-6 BeaveRun Motorsports, Complex Pittsburgh PA
October 9-10 Putnam Park Road Course, Indianapolis Indiana
October 29-31 Road America, Elkart Lake Wisconsin.

You can also drive your car at these events in the High Perforamance Driving Event portion of the weekend! Come on out, drive a little, watch a little, and beer is on me after Saturday night!

LM

[TbirdSC93]

Congratulations on everything youve done so far! What do you guys plan on doing to bump up the hp of the bird. If you guys have some sort of video on VHS or sumthin id be willing to fork out a lil $$$ to see it....I really want to see you guys on track!

as always keep us posted and good luck!!

[Mansier]

We are looking at cam options and David Dalke's AR. I don't know when we would be able to do it all, but from what I have seen out of David's kit, that would be the way to go.

LM

[JoeyICU]

crazy, again what got a tbird down to 2900lbs?

[TbirdSC93]

crazy, again what got a tbird down to 2900lbs?


if you go back thru the first couple of pages he posted what he took out and what it weighed

[007_SuperCoupe]

I talked to a local guy today who's using his bird for autocross...Seems one of his strut rod bushings popped completely off after being "chiseled" away. It looks as though the supplied washers are significantly contributing to this...at least in his case. I plan to set my car up for some of the same abuse he is putting his through. Are you using the stock strut rod washers in conjunction with the poly bushings, or are you using the washers supplied with the kit? He is going to try it again with the stock washers on there to see if it makes a difference. His bushings lasted only 3 months with races every Sunday. Please let me know which washers you are using so we can know if that is already tried and proven to not help. Thanks.

[4 cam bird]

I'm the guy Sam is talking about. The front edge of the bushing is kind of dug out but over half of the center hole is still in tact. Somehow the bushing was pushed around the washer. I do not see how the urethane could have deflected enough for this to happen without the bushing tearing in half but it did :confused:

The bushings had about 4-6 auto x's on them. Not raced every Sunday by any means. They also had under 6000 street miles on them as I have only changed the oil twice this year since getting the car back out.

The set up of the suspension is the poly bushings, 1 3/8" Addcos, Johnny Langton's braces all around, Bilsteins and Eibachs

Ted Lyons and Fast Ed N both do some pretty serious road course type driving with their cars. What are their bushing set ups in that area?

[fast Ed]

Just back on the forum tonight, after being away all weekend, instructing at an SVTOA On Track event. When I needed some new front-end components and bsuhings last year, we installed O.E. Ford replacement strut rod bushings. They still seem fine after a total of about 8 or 9 track days through last summer and this one so far, most of those running on Hoosier Grand-Am Cup spec race radials. I believe Duffy has talked before about why the urethane bushings aren't such a great idea in the strut rods, I don't recall the reason why ... although my brain is a bit baked from riding around in students' cars for 2 days, and a bit of wailing around in my own car of course. ;)

Hopefully Duffy will see this thread and chime in, or maybe a search of the tech forum on the topic will bring up his previous response. I do remember Chuck Weiss, the retired Ford suspension engineer who spoke to us at Carlisle, told us that all of the bushing materials used in the MN-12 chassis are optimum for the application ... because the car was started as a "clean sheet", if the engineers thought that stiffer bushings were needed in that location, they would have been used.

cheers,
Ed N.

[4 cam bird]

Optimum for the application wouldn't necessarily be optimum for handling though, especially in a car designed as a family car and not a sports car. In any production car you are going to have trade offs and they wouldn't ever use urethane because NVH is too much of a concern. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue that urethane is the dead set way to go, although I would think a stiffer bushing would be better as you don't want your caster moving around under hard cornering, I am just saying that things need taken for what there worth and in this case, optimum for the application would definitely not be equal to optimum for handling as that would not have been the #1 design goal on these cars suspensions.

[Randy N Connie]

Here is a picture of a mn12 thunderbird AJE Tube lower control-arm with strut rod.

I don't think a heim joint will pull through like a stock style bushing.If you
want a possitive driving feel.Get a front end like in the picture.

I agree with 4 cam bird,Stock suspension parts or stock designed type
suspension bushings. Were ment to drive to the store not full out racing.

www.ajeracing.com 1-800-877-7233

Randy

[BikerSC]

I was up at Gingerman this weekend (see Ford GT thread in Non Tech) and I was talking to one of the guys who was running the SVTOA event. He asked what I drove, and I said a Thunderbird SC, and he was like, "there was this guy here last weekend with one of those". I said "yeah I have talked to him before, he has a lot of work into that car". He said "yeah, he was pretty fast". So you are making an impression. Good job.

-Steve

[Mansier]

Wahoo! You were probably speaking with Mark Wilson or Brian Tone? Good guys, both of them.

Still need more HP! The new Poly Bushings are in, greased like crazy, and ready for some testing. Let's hope they hold up, as putting a cross member in by August 20-22 at Mid Ohio is getting closer day by day.

Did I mention HP?

LM

[4 cam bird]

Wahoo! You were probably speaking with Mark Wilson or Brian Tone? Good guys, both of them.

Still need more HP! The new Poly Bushings are in, greased like crazy, and ready for some testing. Let's hope they hold up, as putting a cross member in by August 20-22 at Mid Ohio is getting closer day by day.

Did I mention HP?

LM

Did you do anything different other than 'greasing the bushing like crazy'? If not, you are still going to have the problem. The bushing is not breaking in half and falling off. As impossible as it sounds, it is squeezing passed the big washer. So unless you put a bigger washer on there, here is what is going to happen. The washer is going to tear up the front face of the bushing a little until there is enough play in things that the bushing can squeeze passed the washer. The bushing will then be hanging from the front of your strut rod until you brake hard enough for it to fall off. Somehow, mine was still hanging from the front of the strut rod. So, you actually made it easier for the bushing to slide itself out of there by 'greasing it like crazy'.

[Mansier]

The washers we have on the front are huge. If the bushings came off the front like you are saying, they would have had to crack or crumble or some such thing. The washers are bigger than the bushing, so unless there was already damage to the bushing, it didn't come off the front. We greased it so that the friction between the bushing and the washer and the subframe would be reduced. The grease is on the outside, not the inside.

LM

[007_SuperCoupe]

The washers we have on the front are huge. If the bushings came off the front like you are saying, they would have had to crack or crumble or some such thing. The washers are bigger than the bushing, so unless there was already damage to the bushing, it didn't come off the front. We greased it so that the friction between the bushing and the washer and the subframe would be reduced. The grease is on the outside, not the inside.

LM


That tells me that the bushing itself is to blame for its failure. Basically the way that I'm interpreting the data provided here is that the bushings are not compliant enough to allow for movement of the strut rod. And for road type racing you want the strut rod as stiff as possible. I'm not sure if a more compliant design of poly will fix that problem or not. I think that the best solution is to go with the tubular design that Randy suggested above.

My decision is to go with the OEM rubber bushings for the front strut rod bushings. That is at least until I can afford the tubular subframe. So if you know anyone who wants to buy the poly front strut rod bushings from me...let me know. The purpose I have envisioned for my SC the poly bushings will not work...at least as the design is now.

[4 cam bird]

The washers we have on the front are huge. If the bushings came off the front like you are saying, they would have had to crack or crumble or some such thing. The washers are bigger than the bushing, so unless there was already damage to the bushing, it didn't come off the front. We greased it so that the friction between the bushing and the washer and the subframe would be reduced. The grease is on the outside, not the inside.

LM

Are you using a washer different from the ones that came in the kit? The washers I got with the bushings were only approximately the size of the front surface of the bushing. Which is still a really big washer. So, on my car, the washer, being a few millimeters smaller than the front bushing face tore some of the bushing material out from the face. The OD of the face is still perfectly intact. The ID of the bushing at the rear face is still in tact as it is for about half of the bushings depth or a little more. The bushing is not cracked or torn in anyway, but still somehow squeezed passed the washer. The washer and nut are still on the car, the bushing was hanging from the strut rod.
Here is a picture of the bushing:
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v364/4camtbird/bushing.jpg
And here is what the kit I had looked like. Yes, that center hole, untorn and uncracked got around these washers. Impossible you say, I would have said the same thing if I hadn't seen it.
http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12parts/fsk100/fsr-pic7.JPG

[4 cam bird]

Here are a few more pictures, one is the backside of the bushing which you can see is fine, one is the same angle as before just with a better camera so you can see the chewed up area better and the other is from the front with that flap of urethane that is hanging out in there flipped into its original position.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v364/4camtbird/119-1972_IMG.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v364/4camtbird/119-1971_IMG.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v364/4camtbird/119-1970_IMG.jpg

[Mansier]

We sourced some washers from a tractor parts store that are much larger than the ones with the kit. We've had rod ends push past small washers before, and didn't want to see that again!

Good pictures tho, and I would suggest everyone use this information wisely!

LM

[4 cam bird]

Hmmm...I was sort of planning on switching to the cupped OE washers to keep my situation from happening again. But your situation has be thinking twice about that now :confused: Although what you do with your car and me auto x'ing mine aren't exactly the same so I could be ok. Although I do plan on getting brakes on mine this winter and open tracking it next eyar.

[Mansier]

Our next race is Mid Ohio August 20-22.

In Addition!

The race after that is September 4-6 at BeaveRun Motorsports Complex in Wampum, PA. About 10 minutes over the OH/PA border on the turnpike. We would like to offer folks the opportunity to drive the T-Bird that weekend! There is no passenger seat, so you would be driving alone. But, you would be following a pace car that will help you to get up to speed, learn the line, and be safe. Drivers must sign our waiver, and stay behind the pace car for 5 laps. You will also get some classroom instruction on how to drive the car, spend some time with the race team, and have an absolute blast!

We are trying to raise funds for a probable run in the Thunderhill 25 hour race at Thunderhill raceway in Northern California December 5-6. The fee is $50 per driver per session. $40 for additional sessions. Anyone who wants the chance to run this race car on a race track should send me an email at mansier@zoominternet.net .

Also: We have our eye on 2 more T-Birds that we may want to prepare for open track use or road racing. If you are interested in owning a supercoupe with the same level of prep that our current racer has (or more or less), please get in touch, and we will build it for you. Trying to get more Supercoupes on the track!

LM

[kborton]

That's so tempting Lawrence....

You guys have to come to Mid-Ohio to watch this race, it's going to be awesome!

Fear the Chicken

[BikerSC]

That really sounds cool. I am going to try to make it out then. I am not sure how my budget will be for that, but I will put it on the calendar and see what happens.

I am really wanting to have a car at the level of yours, but I would have to scrounge up enough money to get another car. What you are doing (and have done to the car) is exactly what I want to do. Iwish I didn't have so many things going on right now. I will deffinetely try to get something.

-Steve

[4 cam bird]

Mansier, I don't know how you have your PM's set up or if you pay attention to them or anything. I sent you one about the washers you are using. If you could let me know whats up, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Mercutio]

LM, I sent you an email but haven't heard back--I write for Ford Builder magazine, and I'll be at the Thunderhill 25 again this year. Let me know if we can work together to give you some publicity. PM me or email wsmith@buckaroocommunications.com.
Will

[quick35th]

If you are interested in owning a supercoupe with the same level of prep that our current racer has (or more or less), please get in touch, and we will build it for you. Trying to get more Supercoupes on the track!

LM

Any idea how much this would cost? I think I would be more interested in having the gutting part of the project done by you guys and I do the rest.

Let me know.

Shane

[Mansier]

Any idea how much this would cost? I think I would be more interested in having the gutting part of the project done by you guys and I do the rest.

Let me know.

Shane


Hey Shane!
The fee would really depend on how far you would like to go with the car. We could probably offer you a few different thoughts on that:

Basic gutting: Everything out
Intermediate: Everything out, all sound deadening removed,
Advanced: Everything out, all sound deadening removed, and any level of metal removal.

We have all of the extra metal out of the interior as well. All door metal, rear quarter metal, one layer rear deck metal, and more. We also have the front hood and rear deck lids lightened. Feel free to stop by and look at the car if you would like to gain more thoughts on how far to go now.

Give me a call later at 330.421.1900 or send me a number to reach you, and we'll talk more about it.

Thanks!

LM

[quick35th]

Well this is what I had in mind so far:

I would take out all of the interior and some of the sound deadening stuff. Then I would have it towed up to you and then you would take over from there. I think I would take the same route as you did with how much metal was removed, but I may take a few different aproaches to somethings that you didn't. First I would probably use a fiberglass mach1 hood that SCP sells, fiberglass deck lid, and maybe fiberglass doors too. I am not building it for any particular road racing venue as the car would mostly be used as an autocross car. Also I would be going with the AJE kmember and tubular controling arms with coilovers. Some things I would be able to install but I have no experience or tools to do the metal work. Also one thing I have to think about is if I am going to ditch the 3.8 for a 5.8. I have not given this much though yet. Do you think it would be possible to put a fuel cell in the car so that I could get a pair of mufflers in its place and some side pipes? Maybe NASCAR style. I think that would look really cool.

Did you ever build that tubular rear subframe? If so I would be interested in that. Yeah I would love to take a peak at your race SC. That would be cool. I should either give you a call or you can reach me at (614)565-3939.

Whats your plan for this weekend? Maybe I can stop by this weekend to check it out.

Shane

[Mansier]

We could definitely do that for you. The car is very much apart right now, so you can get a good look at the things we did. Can't wait to get it going! It should be awesome.

I am mostly free on Saturday, how's that for you?

LM

[quick35th]

So far saturday is open, unless I deside to go to the Runoffs or not. Call me sometime this week so we can plan our scheduals and then we will see what happens. Depending on the weather maybe I'll drive the car in subject up there to show it to you.

Let me know.

Shane

[quick35th]

LM,

I am so sorry for not calling you this past weekend. I have been so buisy with college and family matters. I will call you ASAP!!!! I really want to check out your SC and see about having you guys work on my SC in the future.

Sorry!!!
Shane

[Doug Franklin]

Lawrence how close are you to Wright Paterson AFB?

[Mansier]

Wright Patterson is down in Dayton, which is about 3 1/2 hours South of Medina. I am about 40 minutes south of Cleveland, and about 25 minutes west of Akron.

LM

[jdburton3]

well haven't heard anything in a while. did you get the bushing problem fixed? another thought on that subject is that with the lowered suspension that the angle between the strut rod and the frame is too extreem if there was a way to bend or alter the angle of either one it would help to ease the angle and remove some of that preloaded stress. what did you use for bushings in the lincoln mark vIII rear lower control arms? if you used stock thunderbird bushings what year were the control arms and what was the part number of the bushings? i have 93 mark arms and 93 t-bird and the stock bushings don't fit in the mark arms. if something different then i would like to replicate it. also, how did you secure the rear springs to the lower mark arm or did you go to coil-overs? would like to see more pics also, you can e-mail them to me at my name @hotmail. it has been fun to follow along.

[quick35th]

I would like to know how you secured the springs as well. Maybe you could reproduce the parts for me? I would be interested in two sets if I can get them.

Shane

[Randy N Connie]

There was a group buy on CNC machined aluminum SpringPerches.
They were machined to fit the MachVIII aluminum lower control arms.
That had springs installed from a MN12 Thunderbird.

You will find some info Over on the TCCoA 6 to 8 mounths ago.They had pictures of the springperch and price.

RANDY

[Mansier]

well haven't heard anything in a while. did you get the bushing problem fixed? another thought on that subject is that with the lowered suspension that the angle between the strut rod and the frame is too extreem if there was a way to bend or alter the angle of either one it would help to ease the angle and remove some of that preloaded stress. what did you use for bushings in the lincoln mark vIII rear lower control arms? if you used stock thunderbird bushings what year were the control arms and what was the part number of the bushings? i have 93 mark arms and 93 t-bird and the stock bushings don't fit in the mark arms. if something different then i would like to replicate it. also, how did you secure the rear springs to the lower mark arm or did you go to coil-overs? would like to see more pics also, you can e-mail them to me at my name @hotmail. it has been fun to follow along.

We are going to the AJE K-Member for 2005. The bushings weren't holding up in the extreme conditions. It could be that the angle is too much, I am not sure.

As for the rear H-Arms: We used the independent rear bushing kit that mn12performance sells, and it fit them perfectly. Of course you will need a press to get the old ones out, and help the new ones go in well (saves a BIG headache)

We did not secure the springs in the Aluminum Arm. We cut 1 1/2 coils off the rear springs, and simply set them in the spring perch. The aluminum arm has a perch in it that is at least 2 inches or more deap, and there is no way the spring is going to get out. We then used the stock spring "bushings" (the crummy rubber things that sit on either end of the spring) and have not seen any wear in the rear arms.

Lots of other changes for 2005. More to come! The car is almost apart again, and going for interior and engine bay paint soon. See you at the track!

LM

[Randy N Connie]

Mansier any updates on the suspension work?
Did you go with A tube K-Member and lower control arms?

I have got all my parts together for my A.J.E. K-Member.
updated spindles,13'' Cobra brakes & calipers. Hope to
get ahold of some Adjustable coil-overs with adjustable
shocks.Another member is working to get a set of dual
adjustable coil over shocks built for the MN12 chassis.
IF they work out, they may be nice for your setup.

Hope all went well for you this winter.

THANKS RANDY

[quick35th]

Mansier any updates on the suspension work?
Did you go with A tube K-Member and lower control arms?

I have got all my parts together for my A.J.E. K-Member.
updated spindles,13'' Cobra brakes & calipers. Hope to
get ahold of some Adjustable coil-overs with adjustable
shocks.Another member is working to get a set of dual
adjustable coil over shocks built for the MN12 chassis.
IF they work out, they may be nice for your setup.

Hope all went well for you this winter.

THANKS RANDY

I would like to know as well. I want to run the AJE stuff to, but I have to decide what motor to run first.

Shane

[Randy N Connie]

Shane the same A.J.E K-Member mounts will work with the 3.8,302.and
4.6 mod motor mounts..

Randy

[MikeKanterakis]

Is there a post regarding the dual shocks? Twin Koni's would be nice, Heck, dual stock shocks would be nice. Talk about a REAL change from soft to firm!

[Randy N Connie]

the Q1A coil overs is in a post ont the NEW PRODUCTS AND SERVICES.

RANDY

[Randy N Connie]

the Q1A coil-overs is on a post in the NEW PRODUCTS AND SERVICES forum.

RANDY

[quick35th]

Shane the same A.J.E K-Member mounts will work with the 3.8,302.and
4.6 mod motor mounts..

Randy

Thanks Randy.

Shane

[MikeKanterakis]

Sorry, I mis-read your post. I thought you were saying that someone was fabricating a mount to allow for the use of 2 shocks on each side. ha ha ha...

What you were really say