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gldiii
06-14-2003, 10:51 PM
I have opened up this thread as promised in the announcement in all forums. If you have questions or comments about this merger after reading through the announcement, feel free to post here and I'll try to answer.

It is important to note that at the current time, this is only a proposal. The membership of the TBSCEC must vote this up or down. Obviously, it is my hope that they will accept it!

Mike8675309
06-15-2003, 11:08 PM
While I think it can only be good if the two groups merge. (Though it is my understanding that the SCCOA as a membership has, for the most part expired. While George has invested in keeping this web forum up, most if not all membership dues have lapsed as of 1/1 2003, while TBSCEC members are...well members of the TBSCEC.)

My concern would be with member ownly forums and how they would work. It's one thing to have a members only publication, but restricting the spread of available SC information on the Web doesn't seem like the way I would like to see it go.

gldiii
06-16-2003, 10:35 AM
Mike, you are correct on fact that all SCCoA memberships have expired. I finally have an SCCoA checking account and we are setting up to take PayPal. If all continues to go well, I can start taking memberships on the 23rd! If the TBSCEC accepts the merger proposal, neither group will have a real head start on who’s an SCCoA member, since it will take some time to actually convert the TBSCEC forums and to set up the new member only forums. I have actually held back on taking membership since I knew this merger was being considered.

The idea behind the member only forums is not so much to restrict information from people just passing through, but it is to give more benefit to members. After all, you need to give members something extra, or there is no incentive to join!

If you have read through the entire proposal, (I realize it is a long read) then you will see that the current TBSCEC technical forums will comprise the new member’s only section while the current SCCoA forums will remain open to the public. This is an attempt to give the member’s something more for their membership, but also leave a public area to assist and attract new members. Members may view and post in any area of their choosing. So if one chooses not to be a member, things stay pretty much the same for that individual.

SuperCoupe
06-16-2003, 06:37 PM
Even though I enjoy both clubs, I for one have no desire to see a merger with the TBSCEC. "It's a great place to visit, but I wouldn't wanna live there" is kinda how I feel about it. (I read the post, and understand the proposel......I think!) Just my opinion for what it's worth...probably about .02 cents!
-Jeff

gldiii
06-16-2003, 08:55 PM
Jeff, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'm not sure I understand your objection very well. The merger will not make the SCCoA become exactly like the TBSCEC or vice versa. The forums that people love and loathe here will remain the same for member and non member to visit and post, we will just a get a new set of forums that is strictly tech and for all members only. This will take a while to fully setup but will be the direction we'll take if the merger is approved. We won't be losing our somewhat non-tech boards or regional boards, if that is what concerns you. In my mind we are only gaining stuff through the merger.

We'll get actual rules here as well, but that is not driven by the merger, it is something we have needed (and a lot of people have requested) for some time now. It will occur whether or not the merger occurs.

If you have time, please post again and give me more info on concerns. I'll do my best to alleviate them (or make them worse, LOL).

JSC
06-18-2003, 03:34 AM
I like the idea...as long as the forum format stays the same,the thing that always bugged me about the tbscec boards was the non-scrolling format ! Call me lazy, but not having to jump back and forth to get to the next message on a particular subject is why i hooked on with the sccoa,not to mention the helpful people we have here! If we can add more good people and more knowledge about our cars,well that can only benefit everyone and i hope that the tbscec members feel the same.
You go George.

Jeff

gldiii
06-18-2003, 09:57 AM
Jeff, thanks for the support! Myself and others believe that the small SC/XR7 community can benefit from a united front. While both club cultures will be changed some, I hope the greater good of the community will be served. I, too, have found the whole community (regardless of board affiliation) to have always been extremely helpful to me.

Don't worry, if the merger is approved by TBSCEC membership all the forums will be the SCCoA format. There will just be a lot more information that people can search through.

redknight
06-19-2003, 04:06 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about the merger as I don't know that much about the other club. At this point, until I can do a little research, I'm neither for nor against the merger. While some may view this merger as trying to combine two rival frat houses, it has the possibility to be a good thing. I plan, like I said, to do a little research so I can make an informed official vote.

I do have one question though. I may be completely out of line, but isn't it a little premature to be talking about a merger before our club even has a stablized structure and administration in place?

The purpose of our club and most other clubs has never been in question. Just look at our motto: "Super Coupe Club of America: Dedicated to the preservation and performance of the '89 to '95 Ford Thunderbird Super Coupe and '89 & '90 Mercury Cougar XR7". It may just be me, but I'm still a little fuzzy about our club's future direction. I'm not questioning the new owner(s). I just feel kind of in the dark. I've read the earlier proposal when Bill Evanoff transferred ownership, but a propsal is a long way from actual.

Sorry about the novel, I'm just trying clear up my perceptions/misperceptions.

Brandon

gldiii
06-19-2003, 05:11 PM
Brandon, I’m the new owner and I don’t mind the questions at all! Much of the TBSCEC membership was at one time an SCCoA member. A lot of the reasons they started another club was to have a club where the membership owned and ran the club rather than a club that was part of a business. They also desired to have a more technically oriented club with less BS. Over the last few years they have gone through the pains of setting up an actual club with structure and leadership. I think they have done a very good job. I (along with others) have been a member of both clubs.

I initiated the club merger efforts that are going on right now. With this SC/XR7 community being the small specialty car group that it is, I believed one large organization rather than two, could best serve the interests of our community. The leadership of the TBSCEC had a chance to review and modify my merger proposal and then presented it to the TBSCEC membership at large for a vote. There have been some lively discussions over there about it and as always in a democracy; there is not a 100% agreement over all of it. But the majority will decide in the end. The SCCoA is prepared to still work with the TBSCEC, no matter what is the outcome.

So, I don’t believe it premature to have those members over here before all our structure is in place. I welcome their voice in participating in our transition, just as I do the members that are already here. I also realize that because of our hectic schedules it is hard to devote a lot of time to one club, let alone two! It was also done to show that we (the SCCoA) now acknowledge their old issues with the club and desire to put that all behind us and move forward. I count members there and here as my friends. It seems reasonable that you would want all your friends in one place! I know I’ll need all the help I can get.

If you really want to do your homework on what is currently going on with the club, you can read through all these long threads I have posted over the last six months or so:

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14403

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15793

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17800

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23692

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23693


But, in a nutshell:

We will soon be collecting dues at $15 per year
Forum rules will be established and published
New member only forums will be established
More discounts and other member privileges will be announced
We will still maintain a large guest area to share technical assistance with SC/XR7 owners
Club will be established as a non-profit organization
Once the membership is established, discussions can begin on what our organizational structure will be
After that, we’ll vote in a slate of officers by 1/1/2005

Also, along the way we’ll be asking for volunteers to help out with all kinds of club related activities

I'm sure this will not answer all your questions, but hopefully it will give you a more comfortable feel about all that is happening. More specific things will be discussed by the membership as time goes on. I'm sure I'll make some unilateral decisions along the way that not everyone will agree with, but hopefully most people will get enough of a compromise to see this through until we have actual elected officers. I just happen to be the guy in charge, for now! (I enjoy and despise that all in the same day! LOL)

I hope you and others can stick around for all that and have a voice in the final product!!!

redknight
06-19-2003, 07:46 PM
Thanks, George. That's what I was looking for. I did searches before, but usually had to wade through a lot of unrelated stuff and had trouble finding what I needed to know. Mostly wound up getting sidetracked. I probably just wasn't searching right. I didn't realize the two clubs were once one club. You've given me quite a bit of homework, professor, but thank you. This answers many questions, including a few I didn't realize I had.

Brandon

Deep6
06-21-2003, 07:33 PM
I was happy to see you and duffy hanging out and joking with each other at Carlisle. This is a major step foward from the days of when Duffy and Bill didn't even want to be under the same tent. :)

At any rate, I always felt that we all "lost out" when Bill was crass enough to tell Duffy "Get out if you don't like it and start your own club if you don't like the way I'm running things". So Duffy did, and many of the "technical brains" followed him.

Which in my honest opinion resulted in a "dumbing down" of the general technical posts here. If the merger goes through it'll be great to bring back those former members here again where they'll be able to contribute to the community.

You're right in your sentiments about our cars and membership. They are becoming older and the community is shrinking. Maintaining a loyal base of owners is the only way for survival. One day 20 years from now when we are showing our t-birds off as "historical cars", this'll all be history. I see alot of positives out of this and very few if any negatives. One other advantage that Duffy brings to the table is his experience in getting a club started and run like an actual club with officers and elections/voting.

George, I forgot to give you my membership dues at Carlisle and just let me know when to send them in. It looks like I'll be getting "more bang for my buck" if I'm a member at the new rates and would love to see more member specific discounts and group buys. Especially since as our cars age, the more parts we'll be buying.

Duffy Floyd
06-22-2003, 12:19 AM
Just for the record...George and I have been attending Carlisle together for a couple of years. As far as the tent thing with Bill E. ...the reason I did not hang in his tent was I was not a SCCoA member and figured the tent was for members. Bill and I still spoke when the occassion called for it. Also in Bill's defense he never told me to get out of the SCCoA if I did not like it and after I told him why I was leaving sent me a nice note saying he was sorry that was my decision. He also never suggested that I start my own club....that was my brilliant idea. (And it really never was MY club.....it was the membership's club...:-))

gldiii
06-22-2003, 11:44 AM
Deep6, I appreciate your support for the car and the clubs. I realize we won't be creating the utopian society for SC/XR7 owners, but I believe we can offer something for everyone and people can pick and choose areas where they would like to participate.

It's also clear that a lot of the details behind the formation of the TBSCEC have taken on the status of ubran myths! LOL Many owners simply became members of both communities and drew what they wanted from each one. I know I am still a faithful member of the TBSCEC and proud of what the club has accomplished in a relatively short period of time. The split never degenerated into any kind of personal war between any individuals that I am aware of. Most of it all stemmed out of how a "club" should be setup and how it should be managed.

Certainly there has never been a Duffy / George split or feud! We are more likely to disagree on some non-car personal belief issues than anything to do with the SC/XR7! LOL

Ever since I was mentioned as the next caretaker of the SCCoA, there have been whispers of the clubs getting back together. Even that ol' rebel, Kurt Sunday asked that same question on the TBSCEC board, before he knew discussions were taking place with the club's officers. I also heard it mentioned at the MN12 Nats in 2002, in a impromptu meeting Bill E. called with a group of longtime SCCoA members. So the idea of the merger has been out there for a while. I just put it down on paper and presented it to the TBSCEC for consideration and possible vote. Regardless of the outcome of that vote, I think it is clear to all that all the owners need to work more closely together to further our cause. I believe we will all do that either separately as two clubs (or hopefully) together as one combined club.

redknight
06-22-2003, 05:59 PM
George,

After reading and information gathering, I really believe that everyone from both clubs has a lot to gain if the merger is approved. While my personal preferences in regard to how organizations are run have usually leaned toward a centralized leadership (in that I've had some bad experiences with a more general leadership, mostly in work\business\group project senarios), this is one time I really think that the club is heading in a good direction. After doing my "homework" to fill in a few of the many 'gaps' in my knowledge of each club, I believe that the SCCOA has a bright future and that the merger will make that future even brighter. Just let me know when and where to send my dues, as I very much want to continue my membership.

Brandon

thundersc
06-23-2003, 01:07 AM
WHY?

Why do they get to vote?

Why can't the old SCCOA membership vote?

I saw their site for first time. rated it a 2 out of 10

They little smaller than us, are they? member numbers to us!

At this time I vote NO

but a Members only forum is over due!

name? TBSCCOAEC???

-chuck-

Mike8675309
06-23-2003, 11:17 AM
Personally I don't like the idea of member only sections. I understand the thought of needing a carrot to dangle to prospective members, but I also understand that SCCOA membership grew regularly without such a carrot.

Yet, I understand the position the Super Coupe enthusiast is in these days with dwindling numbers, higher expenses, and factory cars tempting us. So it only makes sense for two groups with the same goals to work as one.

Thus I say let's do it. The more the better.

As far as having the SCCOA former membership vote, why? Until George is able to build some structure to the organization, it remains pretty much as it was. The SCCOA was and yet remains a entity controlled by a single individual. George is asking for input, but in truth, he can do what he wants.

gldiii
06-23-2003, 11:50 AM
Chuck, I appreciate that you have taken the time to study all this and to comment on all that is going on. I’m not sure I can add more answers to your generic “WHY?” question than I have already said in responses here and on the TBSCEC. The reason they get to vote and we don’t at this time is for a couple of reasons. The TBSCEC is an organized club and has a structure in place for handling issues and making decisions. The SCCoA does not. They are giving up something to merge that they have worked long and hard to have. We are not really giving up anything, since they could become members once I open the membership at the SCCoA. Many people already participate in both boards. Also, the SCCoA is still a privately owned entity. I just happen to be the current owner. But I want to transition the club to belong more to the members. That will take a little time and I want as many SC/XR7 owners to assist in that transition.

Even though you rate their site very low, the general consensus I get about the TBSCEC is that the board is very technically competent (I am a member there as well), but does not allow for much non-tech conversations. I hope by merging we can get the best of both worlds and the eventually SCCoA member can choose the type of activity to participate in that best suites their needs on a given day. Seems to me that the SC/XR7 community only stands to gain from this merger.

The proposal is to keep the SCCoA name for the combined boards. As you have pointed out, that for whatever reasons the SCCoA has the best name recognition and has attracted more board members over time.

Your opposition is noted, but I hope over time you can see the benefits of the merger, if approved by the TBSCEC membership. If you are able to stick around through all of this, you’ll get your chance to really vote on future questions regarding the SCCoA club, if you choose to become a member.

gldiii
06-23-2003, 12:00 PM
Mike, I think your title says it all, “SCCoA Member?”. We are all in that status of being a non-member here. That will soon be changing and people will get to choose to join or not to join. In answer to your issue with member only areas, we will not be shutting the door completely to the non-member. We’ll still have the current Tech and Non-tech sections open to assist owners who aren’t members, but might want to be. I’m sure many of our members will still post on those sections to help people out. We do want to have a lot of good stuff for people that do join. Clubs do need to give something back to the membership and I believe we can do that. I hope we can keep the costs low, so it isn’t a financial issue when someone doesn’t join. Like you said, I am the current benevolent dictator and will make some decisions along the way until we can get a legitimate set of leaders in here!

thundersc
06-23-2003, 09:02 PM
gldiii, thanks for your reply..

After a lot of thinking today at work, than re-veiwing your first posting, reading reply, spenting more time looking around tbSCec..

I change my mind lets do it!

Keep out the good work gldiii

-chuck-

Tim Groth
06-24-2003, 01:34 AM
George

I think you have a great idea on merging the two clubs together however I feel in doing so it will only cause the formation of yet another club. No matter how good it may seem to have both clubs together I think we all know there will be some who won't accept the merger and will part their own ways.

I personally would hate to see that happened, and perhaps thats an extreme...but I've seen it happen.

No matter what the out come of this, I feel it will be done professionally and only for the better of us as a group, so I stand behind whatever decision be made.

-Tim

JSC
06-24-2003, 01:39 AM
I kind of think of the member area as being the perk that the Chargin' Thunder was (is ?) an area for the most technical aspects of the club , which is kind of what the tbscec is as a whole.The member area could be viewed as an electronic CT.
I also like the idea of an "almost anything goes" forum, would definitely help to clean up the muddle in some of the other forums and bring back some people who are too spicy for the non-tech forum as it stands. It can only be interesting......LOL !!

Jeff

gldiii
06-24-2003, 10:51 AM
Tim, I guess only time will tell how many clubs there will be. I hope it is not an unreasonable expectation that all SC/XR7 owners could still work together for the car, even if they cannot have a majority of their needs met by a single club.

I cannot really take full credit for the merger idea. Many have asked about coming back together almost a whole year now. I just happened to the person in the position to at least ask the question in a forum where a decision could be made. We’ll all know the outcome by 7/1!

I do appreciate the support from you and many others. There is still a lot to be done and we’ll need all the help we can get!

----------------------------------

Jeff, the member only areas are just one of several perks we hope to eventually offer members. I also think that we can get enough people involved to bring back the Chargin’ Thunder in probably an electronic format to send to members. That will allow for some more in depth articles, interviews and pictures that take more effort to compose than tech posts do.

Also, as we do get rules setup and published it will be easier to keep topics in the correct forum. It will also allow members and guest to better pick the kind areas where they would like to participate. While I have no personal desire to have a completely anything goes area, it is clear that many potential members want an off-topic area to discuss things. With the proper set of “loose” rules and someone to moderate (who is not me, LOL!), I’m sure we can accommodate a lot of those people.

ThunderCoupe94
06-24-2003, 05:19 PM
George, I am with a few of the guys on here. Whats the point of the merger? I have nothing against the TBSCEC but i dont think the 2 should merger. There is no point. The SCCoA should stay the way it is right now. Why dont the sccoa former members who were expired get to vote? I understand that you paid your money for the club BUT! the sccoa members should have the option to vote on this matter since u want everything to be involving all the members. Sorry if u take this the wrong way just my $.02

Jayson

gldiii
06-24-2003, 06:07 PM
Jayson, I don’t know if you have had a chance to read through all the posts and information on this subject, but if you can, that should give you all the reasons I and others believe the merger is good for all the SC/XR7 owners. (Links are posted back in my reply to Brandon.) If you do not agree with those reasons, then we will just have to agree to disagree on the merits of the merger. The expired SCCoA membership is not losing anything in the merger, but the community as a whole stands to gain quite a bit. It is really a win/win situation!

The SCCoA membership has never gotten to vote on anything in the past. I never sought to mislead anyone into thinking that the membership voting on issues would happen right away! I will necessarily be making some unilateral decisions until I can get the club into a shape where the club and membership is organized and can get to vote on issues. The set of decisions that I am already in the process of making are also in those links. I’ll be getting more input on decisions from more people as time goes by.

I don’t think I am taking anything that you said the wrong way. At least none of what you posted upsets me or makes me angry in any way. I just hope you can stick around in spite of some of my decisions until you do get your chance to participate. In the meantime, I’ll stand behind and take the both the criticism and compliments for what I am doing. Even in an actual democracy, there is no complete agreement on any issue. I did not expect it on this one. Besides, we don’t even know the outcome of the TBSCEC vote on the merger! This could all be moot! LOL

I can appreciate your position; I hope you can read enough of what I am doing, to appreciate mine.

Feel free to post specific problems you have or email them to me. I’ll do my best to give you my position on club matters.

ThunderCoupe94
06-24-2003, 07:16 PM
George, Are you kiddin me i am not going anywhere. You and a lot of the other SCCoA forum members have helped me out in situations when i was stuck with my car for 2 years now. I will stick around and i totally understand what position you are in and come to think about it MAYBE it will be a step in a better direction all i can do is wait and see just like all the rest of the members here. P.S. Sorry i didnt read all the posts b4 i said somethin. Anyway i hope everything goes well in the future with this club because it consists of tons of info that helps a lot of people out when they need it. Thanks for clearin it all up for me George.

Have a great week
Jayson

007_SuperCoupe
06-26-2003, 12:07 AM
George, I just want to voice my support for the merger. I think that it will bring a lot to the table for the current, albeit expired, members of the SCCOA. I'm the type of person who's always looking for the "one stop shop" but I realize that it can't always be had. I know about the TBSCEC but have never really spent any time over there. I'm a member of a local 'Bird and Cougar club that some of the members swear by the tech aspect of the TBSCEC. However, I get in enough trouble surfing this site, let alone ANOTHER T-bird site! LOL! I would like to see the clubs merge as I believe that it would benefit both sides greatly. (maybe more on our side than theirs, but if the shoe fits...)
I do have a thought regarding the CT. I'm sure that is has been thought of already as I have seen hints of it when you mention it. I think in the "members only" section, there should be a place (read "archives") for the past issues of CT. I personally became a member a year ago (immediately upon the purchase of my SC) exclusively for the TC. I wanted a publication, no matter how small, that was dedicated exclusively to the performance and maintenance of my car. That was the selling point for me. I did, however think that the price was a bit on the steep side, but can also understand why. Long story short, as you already know, electronic is the way to go. Have the past issues (PDF format) available to the "members" and continue, but broaden the pubication to include the N/A V-6 and the 5.0 as well as any custom projects out there such as the 351W or the legenday 460 that have been put into the MN-12. Like I said before, I'm sure that it has been thought of already, but in the bye chance that it hasn't been thought of in this light, here it is. Thanks for keeping us going.

gldiii
06-26-2003, 11:31 AM
Thanks Mr. 007! Ron and I have discussed archiving the past Chargin’ Thunders online as a “pdf” files. This wouldn’t be too difficult for the later issues that Bill Evanoff had in WORD, but many of the early Bill Hull issues only exist as cut and pasted paper objects that will have to be scanned.

I’m not completely sure of how the reincarnation of the Chargin’ Thunder will go, but I am committed to seeing it start up again, most likely in the electronic format. I would go for special interest articles on some of the different engine buildups, which you mentioned, but would not be for watering down the SC/XR7 content by including other categories of Thunderbirds in the publication as regular faire. I believe we are still a large enough group of specialty car owners that we can stay that way for some time to come. Eventually, the inclusion of other MN12 cars may need to be looked at by the club membership. I’ll save that for the membership to look at another day. We’ll need a lot of new ideas down the road!

jonroe
06-26-2003, 03:59 PM
George,

I support the merger proposal for the simple reason that this is a narrow niche that will only get smaller as these cars age and we need as much brain power in one place as possible. I would hate, and don't have the time, to have to look all over the place for my kin.

Jon

gldiii
06-26-2003, 05:30 PM
Jon, thanks for the support! I hope that others can see that same thing over time. While the SCCoA has agreed to never become a parts vendor, I hope that by our numbers we can be influential in getting more support for our vehicles. I know that I for one, have way to much invested in my car to see everything for it obsoleted! LOL

T-bird4vr
07-10-2003, 12:30 AM
George,
I'm sure you probably answered this before so forgive me because there is so much to read though. But what abouth the people that are currently tbscec members? I just joined within the last couple months. Will my membership to the new club continue for a year from when I joined TBSCEC? That seems fair.
Thanks,
Julian

Duffy Floyd
07-10-2003, 07:20 AM
Julian,

Actually since the TBSCEC cost of membership is higher, all remaining months of TBSCEC membership will be converted to SCCoA memberber by a factor of 1.33 rounded up to the next complete month. So if you had 10 months remaining you would have 14 months (if I did the math right) of SCCoA membership right out of the box.

gldiii
07-10-2003, 09:09 AM
Julian,

Duffy has you covered on the dues conversion for your situation. Your post has made me realize that the merger proposal (now accepted) is no longer on the board. So you probably could have only found the answer to your question on the TBSCEC board. (Which I hope you read all the way through before you voted! LOL)

I'll put the whole text of the accepted merger proposal back in a separate post.

onequiksc
07-10-2003, 05:44 PM
George and/or Duffy;

Will there a be an official webpage of initial membership listings(such as at TBSCEC) so folks like myself that bring a few months of dues over from TBSCEC can see the pro-rata remainder?

I know you've got a lot on your plate right now, but it would help us know when we need to re-up. If not , maybe some email notification of when the membership expires?

Just curious.

gldiii
07-10-2003, 07:05 PM
Dan, I believe there will be a notification from the TBSCEC side via email about the initial conversion of your membership, should you choose to join the SCCoA.

In the future, we will have some sort of email notification from the SCCoA side as memberships are about to expire. If we do decide to post a member list on the SCCoA, it would be in the member's only area. It will take a little while to get all setup, but we'll try not to let memberships lapse without notification.