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duanemyhre
07-19-2003, 05:53 PM
Is there anyone on the board who can diagnose and understands AOD transmissions?

My poor SC is having one problem after another lately!

I have read all the boards and the stuff from TCCOA. I need to talk to a real expert! Not like most of those idiots that work at the tranny shops.

Problems include (on rebuilt tranny with 5,000miles)
-cold shifts @ 5000 rpm (getting somewhat normal after warming up)

-after driving, sticks in gear while stopped and bogs down engine.

-sometimes after stopping, engine lugging like above, I try to accelerate and the car shutters like it is in second or third gear. I hit the gas hard, and it shifts hard down (and rubber is put to the ground without intention)

Im sure something needs to be replaced, but I need to know what. I want to know, so I can do it my-self, or specify to a shop what I want done.

duanemyhre
07-19-2003, 05:56 PM
OOhh yeac TV cable is set at Mid

duanemyhre
07-21-2003, 12:30 AM
?

thunderstruck
07-21-2003, 09:35 AM
Im by NO means an expert, but I personally think its a pretty safe bet that you have something like metal filings making your valve body stick. If your brave enough to pull the valve body, its not a hard thing to get to. I know theres guys on here who have done it and could give you a step by step.
Pull your tranny pan and see what the fluid looks like. If its metallic looking in the sunlight, Id bet that metal is causing those valves to stick. The symptoms such as it shifting better when its warm, and that it wont go back into low when you stop, and that you have to ramrod it to get it to shift up at the light are good indicators to me that that is it. Good luck!

duanemyhre
07-21-2003, 09:51 PM
thunderstruck

THANKS!

I think a saw a write up about somthing like that on TCCOA. Somthing about using new plastic ones?? Im not sure?!

Do you know where I can get a pic or diagram of the tranny and these parts, so I can do it my-self. Even part numbers would help.

Anything. I want to make this fix this week. I dont want to burn up this tranny!

Duane

white90sc
07-22-2003, 01:51 AM
It sounds to me like you should just go to a loc. tranny place and have them set your cables!!!

Gen. Supercoupe:o

duanemyhre
07-22-2003, 03:30 PM
A local tranny place rebuilt this tranny for 1200. It was supposed to have a one year warranty. I have taken in back to them c??? over 5 times!!!! Sometimes they keep it for a few days, and once they kept it for a week. It always comes back the same. I had to prove to them that my tranny didnft take type F fluid. They said I was wrong until I showed then the dipstick. AND with the TV cable adjusted wrong (If the way posted on TCCOA is right). I donft know anyone who I trust to do tranny work. I have talked to many tranny shops in the area. They canft agree on what is wrong with my tranny. The ONLY thing they agree on is that I need my tranny rebuilt (pay them a lot of money to screw up my tranny again) I have also judged their competence buy asking many of them the tranny fluid question. Over 90% get it wrong!! I canft believe it!!!! I figure that if people like this can work on transmissions and stay in business, I can surely fix my tranny myself with the right instructions and it wont cost me 1000-1200 bucks!

Are these trannys really that difficult?!

I followed the directions from TCCOA to adjust my TV cable. I first tried different settings. All the way from high to low. Mid seemed to work the best, but really not all that different. This makes me believe that thunderstruck might be close to the answer. I read something about metal particles, shift valves, and using a new plastic valve that will not get stuck. I couldnft pin it exactly to my problems, but it sounds possible.

Does anyone have a detailed diagram of the break down of the tranny? Those valves are supposed to be around $20. I want to change them and change my fluid and see what happens before I burn up the thing. I just need the information!

Motohead
07-23-2003, 10:04 AM
-after driving, sticks in gear while stopped and bogs down engine.

Wether or not the trany is "In Gear" dosent matter your tork converter is what "Slips" and allows you to sit in gear at a stoplight your tork converter has a lockup function that may not be working properlly

ilusnforc
07-23-2003, 10:59 AM
I am also having tranny problems with my '92 LX V6, it has very delayed shifting, will not go into the next gear until very high rpm. i tried dropping the pan, changed the filter, and added some fluid back but the pan was very clean.. no shavings whatsoever. Has anyone ever taken the tranny pan off?? i thought there should be a magnet in there but there wasn't...?
It still shifted the same after all this.. but about 2 weeks later it magically starts shifting normal...?

90sc35thann
07-23-2003, 04:03 PM
I am no AOD expert but there could be a few things causing your problem. I think your TV cable is ok because usually if it is too tight you won't be able to open up your throttle all the way. I don't think it is the converter because the AOD converter doesn't have a clutch mechanism in it. The converter locks up via a drum in the rear of the transmission and it will only lock up once you are third and fourth gear. It definitely sounds like an accumulator or valve body. Either way you need to drop the pan. I have heard of accumulator springs breaking thus causing the accumulator not to move properly. This will cause some very strange shifting. I have even heard some guys removing the accumulator springs to make second gear shift real hard. When you remove the pan the accumulator should be visible toward the front of the transmission. It should be circular and held in with a snap ring. Don't worry about pulling it out because the only thing there should be a heavy spring on one side a piston a heavy spring on the other ant then a rataining cup and snap ring. You won't lose anything. If the springs are intact and are there, I would move my attention toward the vlalve body. Did you have a shift kit installed? If so maybe they didn't drill out one of the oil ciircuits properly or maybe the wrong one. That would be hard to tell. If you can find a used valve body to try at this point after checking the accumulator that would be the next step I would take. They aren't hard to put in. Almost as easy as changing the tranny filter. It's just a real messy job if you don't have a lift. I hope that helps. Let me know what happens.

MIKE 38sc
07-23-2003, 07:50 PM
Check the accumulator bores, they are notorious for wearing rapidly in AOD's. One of the accumulators I beleive it is the 2-3 accumulator itself wears out quickly and does'nt seal for crap.
They offer a replacement that is completely coated in rubber and thats the one you want. Its been a while since I went through my AOD so this info is off the top of my head and no I did not rebuild it just like Ford originaly did. Its much much better now!:D

duanemyhre
07-23-2003, 08:00 PM
Everyone! Thanks for your help! :D

My car is completely stock. No shift kit. Tomorrow I will pull my accumulator and check it. If it looks fine, I will pull my valve body and check the valves.

I feel about 99% sure that the TV cable is OK. I got the instructions to adjust it from TCCOA. the adjustment is easy! In there reference, there is a span of 5/16 of an inch for adjustment. I have tried both high and low. Now it is set at mid and it doesnft make a BIG difference. Butc the tranny isnft working right in the first place!

I read something about adding a inline filter to the cooler line. Has anyone done this, or know what kind of filter you can use. I wouldnft want to disturb the flow and pressure. Possibly, even just put one in for a week or so, to make sure everything is cleaned out.

Any and all information about what I should be looking for would be really appreciated. All of your experience really helps. I have a lot of experience with engines and some experience with manual transmissions, but I have only changed the oil on automatics. This is a whole new area for me. Eventually, when I have more funds available, I would like to get a used AOD and build a performance Tranny. Just for the experience and knowledge of automatic transmissions.

I will keep up to date on my progress

Duane

MIKE 38sc
07-23-2003, 08:27 PM
Since youre going to be under the car the best way to check the TV setting is with a pressure gauge. Thats the only way to set the TV pressure! I found out the hard way!
On the passenger side of the tranny above the oil pan rim you will notice several ports with plugs in them. Clean the dirt or crud off and one of those ports will have TV cast into the housing.
Remove the plug and screw in a pressure gauge, now start the engine leaving the tranny in PARK and check what the pressure is.
You want 38 lbs. NO more and not much less.
I would do this before I dropped the pan or anything. Its really simple to do and will give you a much better idea if you need to go any further.;)

duanemyhre
07-24-2003, 02:26 PM
Mike

Thanks!

I guess I need to go find a reliable gauge and adapter to fit he hole. There is a tool specialty shop in town. I will give them a call.

Is this the way the factory adjusts them? What about transmission shops?

If the valves are sticking open anywhere on this tranny, could that cause the pressure reading to be off?

MIKE 38sc
07-24-2003, 03:02 PM
Yes thats the way the factory and any shop worth anything do it.
Those other ports on the case are diagnostic ports to check other operations of the tranny. DO NOT drive the car until the tranny has been checked and fixed or you WILL destroy it. I know about this first hand!
I'm gonna try and get my AOD manual back this weekend so I can be of more help to you, then I can tell you what to do and look for at the other ports.
I hate to say this but the way to set the TV cable that everybody recomends is BAD. Thats how I smoked my tranny. After setting mine the way everybody recomends I later found out that I only had 15 lbs of pressure. The tranny lasted 2 minutes and then welded itself together destroying ALL drums,bands and ALL the clutch's.
The only parts that I was able to reuse was the case, input and output shafts. Everything else was gone.
The AOD is a good and strong tranny, it gets a bad rap because MOST shops and weekend mechanics do not diagnose and fix them properly, so when they tear up again of course its the junky weak tranny thats to blame.
Let me know what TV pressure you have after checking it and do not disassemble any of the tranny yet, it may already be toast and you will just be pissing in the wind.
Good Luck!

duanemyhre
07-24-2003, 03:47 PM
Thanks Mike!

I am going to go pick up a gauge right now.

duanemyhre
07-24-2003, 04:03 PM
Mike. I can get a fluid filled gauge 0 – 160. It has increments every two pounds and meets some federal standard. I would have to order a 0 – 60 gauge. Do you know what kind of adapter I will need to attach it to the tranny? What size fitting?

MIKE 38sc
07-24-2003, 05:04 PM
That gauge will work for the low pressure measurements, but you will need a 0-500 lbs. gauge to take the highpressure measurements.
Take one of the plugs from the tranny with you and find a adapter to go from the gauge to the same diameter and thread pitch as the plug(cant remember the exact size right now) but you want a MALE thread on that end so it will screw into the tranny port.
Do you have a sears,toolbox or something like that around you?
Check around at places like that or autoparts stores and see if they have a "Automatic transmission oil pressure tester" That will have everything you need(2 gauges,2 hoses and all the adapters you will need). I've seen them for about $30.00 that are good enough.

duanemyhre
07-24-2003, 06:48 PM
Sears,toolbox? What is that? just a toolbox? Craftsman? There is a Sears in town. Do they have this tranny kit?

I called one of my local auto parts places and they referred me to a specialty shop where I located a quality 0-30 pressure gauge.

There is a local tool shop also. No Trans kit?! What other pressures will I need to measure?

I found some plugs on the sides of my case, but couldnft find any markings. If we are going up to 500psi, I better hook my 0 - 30 gauge in the right hole!

Does the tranny need to be cold or at operating temp?

duanemyhre
07-24-2003, 07:42 PM
OK. I found the TV port, hooked up the gauge to it. It looked like I got OVER 70- 80psi. :eek: The gauge only goes to 60 and it pegged the stop under the 0. At first, I thought the gauge wasnft working! :confused:

Could this be caused if there was a stuck valve or broken spring in the accumulator?

After this post I will readjust the TV cable and see If I can get 38psi.

duanemyhre
07-24-2003, 07:46 PM
OOhhh yeac
I did this test with the trans cold. I had to use a torch and breaker bar to get the plug out. It was clean on the outside and looked like it had never been touched. Ifm pretty sure this plug was not removed before, during, or after my rebuild!

duanemyhre
07-24-2003, 07:55 PM
OKc

There is no tension on the TV cable at idle. Does pressure increase when the cable is pulled or does it decrease? Ifm a little nervous about proceeding without getting a little info first.

duanemyhre
07-24-2003, 08:05 PM
Mistake in previous post. My gauge is a 0 - 60. Not 30

duanemyhre
07-24-2003, 08:27 PM
I double checked all the cables and ports. Everything looks fine.

Just to make sure.

The port for the TV cable is in the middle of the three (set back) on the passenger side?

There is one port on the driver side, but I couldnft find any markings for it.

Also... There seems to be two switches/sensors on the tranny. My book only lists the neutral switch sensor. What is the two wire one (looks strange) on the rear of the tranny?

MIKE 38sc
07-25-2003, 12:19 AM
You pegged a 60 lbs gauge? Do you hafe fluid leaking past the front or tailshaft seals? You do have problems.
Do not start the engine anymore until I get that manual back, so I can trace out the circuit.
I'm sorry I cant help you more right now. I'm outa the groove right now cause I've been away from cars for about 10 months.
Life threw me a curve ball and I'm still trying to recoupe. I work on alot of different cars and with everything I've been through the last year its all just mush to me right now.
The 2 electrical connections are the nuetral safety switch and the speedometer drive. Yes the speedometer is electric in these cars.
Hang on, were gonna figure it out.
How long has the tranny been acting up?
How much have you run it that way?
What does the fluid look like?
What does the fluid smell like?
Oh I almost forgot.......Yes as the cable is pulled the pressure rises, so if you have the cable fully released and you have over 60 lbs you have problems, and no an accumulater spring broken will not cause that.
Are you 100% sure you are on the TV port?

duanemyhre
07-25-2003, 12:53 AM
Scary isnft it!!

The 0-60 gauge went past 60 back over to the zero (only one stop on the gauge). If you calculate it roughly it looks like 70-80psi??!!

I know what it is like. Life is moving along smoothly and suddenly itfs like you hit a tree at 50mph. I takes awhile to get things back to normal. Ifve been there a few times myself.

There doesnft appear to be any leaks. Definitely nothing more than a very very minor leak at the rear seal. Doesnft leave any oil on the driveway!

Not even 100 miles on it after the rebuild, and it started acting strange. For the first 4,500 miles, it just wouldnft shift right until it got up to operating temp. Cold, you needed to be at 4000-5000 rpm to shift into second. Third was a little less 3500-4500.

I took it back to the shopc5,6 7times! They always returned it to me warm (working fine). The next morning it did the same thing!

About 300-500 miles ago, I got tired of the problem and started trying to fix the problem. Actually, the only thing I could do was re-adjust the TV cable.

About 50miles or less ago it started the gnot shifting out of second or third back into first while stopped. That is when I realized that things were going downhill!

Now, the car is a little dangerous to drive. I will pull out in traffic and the car will be in second or third and barely move. Ifm surprised I didnft cause an accident!

I think it is the right port! I will take a pic and post it soon. Actuallyc do you know how to add a pic to the post? I tried and couldnft figure it out. Computer technology is usually one of my strong areas. I guess I have gone stupid lately! It is probably really simple.

MIKE 38sc
07-25-2003, 01:08 AM
After you hit the reply button look right below the window in which you wright your reply and you will see a line called Attach file, click the browse button in that line, a window will open that allows you to search and find the picture you want to post, then click on it. Like this.

duanemyhre
07-25-2003, 01:22 AM
OK! I thought that was to attach a file you could download and not see. I thought I tried that before. Well we will know in a second.

duanemyhre
07-25-2003, 01:25 AM
This is the port on the left side. I cant read the words on the left, but the one that says TV is in the middle.

MIKE 38sc
07-25-2003, 01:28 AM
Its always the simple things that cause the most trouble.
Nice pic! Yes those are the diagnostic ports. Now hang on and I'll get that manual and we'll get this sorted out. I'll get back to ya.
My God, what kinda camera you got? Those pics are very nice.

duanemyhre
07-25-2003, 01:30 AM
I donft know if you can see this. This is what I am pretty sure is the TV port. TV is printed right below.

MIKE 38sc
07-25-2003, 01:37 AM
Yes Sir, thats the right one.
I have GOT to get one of those cameras, that is great!
Your ability to post those kinds of pictures is helping greatly.
Now if I could post that quality also I could be of more help.
What Mega pixel is that?

duanemyhre
07-25-2003, 01:38 AM
Thanks! Itfs my wifes new Sony Cybershot 3.2 Megapixels. Itfs the cheapest 3.2MP Sony, but it seems to work great. I was surprised it took these shots only a few inches away.

Thanks for all your help! I will wait to hear from you.

MIKE 38sc
07-25-2003, 03:14 PM
OK I havent got the manual yet, but I dug through my mountain of SC info and got some more for you. I have the oil pressures you need. You are going to have to look at those ports to see which ones to hook up, they are all marked just like the TV port.

Before we get started let me clear up a mistake I made.
The TV pressure MUST be 34 lbs. with the tranny in Drive the engine at idle and SOMEONE HOLDING THE BRAKE!
I hope you can read the gauge WITHOUT getting under the car during these tests. DO NOT get under the care with it running.
It is not worth it. One mistake and its all over. Now with that said, here goes.

MAIN LINE PRESSURE:
In P/N,D,3,1 @ Idle Hot-55-65 psi
In P/N,D,3,1 @ Stall Hot-180-290 psi

In Reverse @ Idle Hot-75-90 psi
In Reverse @ Stall Hot-250-290 psi

TV PRESSURE:
In D @ idle Hot-34 psi ( must be 34 psi, NO more and NO less)

CLUTCH PRESSURE:
You can check for leaks in the Clutch/Band circuits by comparing them to Main Line Pressure. They should be within 10 psi of each other. If you have more than a 10 psi leak in Direct you won't have a 3-4 upshift. This is a common problem on AOD's

HERES HOW TO CHECK FOR LEAKS:
1. Install pressure gauge in line pressure tap.
2. Install a 2nd gauge in the clutch tap you want to check.
3. Clutch/Band pressure should be within 10 psi of line pressure when the clutch is applied.

I'll get more info for you.

duanemyhre
07-25-2003, 05:59 PM
What does Stall mean in this test?

I will get started. It looks like I will need another gauge. What is the max pressure we will be testing?

duanemyhre
07-25-2003, 09:42 PM
It is set at 34-35psi

The adjustment is very sensitive! One notch is about 5 -10psi.

On my car, it was about 1/8 of an inch up from the high point setting of the TCCOA method of setting the TV cable.

duanemyhre
07-25-2003, 10:12 PM
The is in reference to the pic on the second page of this thread. The rear of the car is to the left.

Three ports, three plugs on this side of the tranny. Middle one has a hose in it.

It is a little difficult to read, so I might be off a letter or two, but this is what I think they read.

1. (Left port) DIRECT
2. (Middle port) TV
3. (Right port) FWD

There is one port on the driver side that does not have any markings.

Which port is the Main pressure line?

Which port is the clutch line?

The port labeled DIRECT has no pressure. It looks like it might be next to the pump?? If it is, than maybe it is oil coming from the pan.

The FWD port constantly fluctuated between 75-80psi.

That pressure is consistent for 1, D, OD. The other gears have NO pressure.

duanemyhre
07-25-2003, 11:20 PM
ttt

MIKE 38sc
07-25-2003, 11:35 PM
OK, You acheive stall by holding the brakes FIRMLY in Drive and give the car gas until the RPM's stop rising. Now let me say this right now. That is going to be difficult with this engine, its going to burn the rear tires by then if it runs anything like mine did.
The key to doing this is do it quick. Meaning run it up in RPM quickly(DO NOT floor it) stall the converter(meaning raise the engine RPM to the point its not rising) and note the pressure reading at that moment.
Whenever you are stalling the converter do it quick and get off of it, DONT doddle around here because stalling the converter like this makes a lot of heat, so dont spend over 20 seconds at stall.
Thats plenty of time to get your reading.
PLEASE PLEASE do not let anyone around the car during these tests. Please make sure whoever is helping you that they understand to NEVER let off the brakes for ANYTHING! IF something does not feel right KEEP the brake applied and SHUT the ignition OFF. Use common sense!!!

OK to the list.
1. Direct= Direct Drive Clutch.
2.TV= Throttle Valve. You already know about this one and I see you adjusted it to the proper setting. Since you have now done this yourself, Do you have a better understanding why its not such a good idea to set the cable the popular recomended way?
You commented on how sensative the adjustment is. I do not think most people realize that fact.
3.FWD= Forward clutch.

Now that the TV is set properly we want to compare the line pressure of the tranny to the pressure at both the clutch's(forward and Direct) One clutch at a time.
The port you located on the drivers side of the tranny is the line pressure port. You will need at least a 300 psi gauge for this.

Check the pressures I posted earlier like this.
Connect the 300 psi gauge to the line pressure port. Start the car let it idle for this test. Write down the reading on the gauge. Now while watching the gauge apply the brakes and place the gear selector in EVERY posistion(P/N,OD,2,1 now do it with the tranny in Reverse. write down the reading you get in each gear.
Now your going to do a stall test.
Leave the gauge hooked up same as before, on the line pressure port. Now put the car in O/D apply the brakes HARD and gas the engine to raise the RPM's until they stop rising or the rear tire start burning. Take a reading at that moment. Now repeat this in 2nd gear noting the pressure and again in 1st gear. Now repeat this in Reverse. Write down all these reading so you understand what they are. Now remove the gauge and replace the plug into the port.
Now go back to the pass side of the car(where the TV port is)
Connect the 300 psi gauge to the Direct port and repeat the test as before, going through all the gears at idle and at stall. write down those readings. Now move the gauge to the Forward port and reat the test again going through all the gears at idle and at stall. Write down those readings.
Once you get all your readings come back and post them and we will see if we can figure out whats going on.

I have to say this again. What you are getting ready to do is DANGEROUS, PLEASE PLEASE take all procautions and be ready to flip the key switch off in the blink of an eye. If something does not feel right SHUT THAT CAR DOWN!!!!!! KEEP your foot FIRMLY on the BRAKES at ALL times!!!!!! NEVER take your foot off the brakes at ANY TIME during these tests until that motor stops running.
For Gods sake be carefull and good luck!
I just realized I did not clarify which port is line pressure.
Line pressure port is on the drivers side of the tranny.

duanemyhre
07-25-2003, 11:55 PM
OK…

???!!! (Scratching my head)

This sounds a little scary! I will have to do this while my car is on ramps?!

I only have about 12 inches on my hose. I don’t know how this will work if I pull my car off the ramps. Reverse is probably no such a big problem. The stall test will definitely need two people.

The port labeled DIRECT has no pressure. I haven’t tried the stall test yet? Is this a problem already?

The FWD port constantly fluctuated between 75-80psi. This will be the first stall test
That pressure is consistent for 1, D, OD. The other gears have NO pressure.

Do we need complete diagnostics to determine the problem?

If I passed on the stall test for right now and just did the line pressure test, would that be useful to us, or do we need everything?

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 12:03 AM
You havent done a stall test yet. The car was idling during your test was'nt it? and NO I do not recomend doing these tests on ramps. DO NOT DO IT!
Maybe you should drive the car now that the TV pressure is correct, in fact thats what I would do.
Give it a try and let me know how it acts.
Lets do that before we enter the realm of Danger!

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 12:08 AM
I guessing that the fact that my direct drive clutch doesn’t have pressure is OK?

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 12:13 AM
For now dont worry about that for now.
Did you infact stall the converter in your test?
If you did and 75-80 psi is what you had at stall, your pump is shot. That pressure at stall should be 180-215 psi, thats a big difference.

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 12:56 AM
There has been an improvement! It shifts down into first like normal.

Only problem left is that it doesn’t want to shift from first to second and second to third until 3500-4000 rpm. What is our next step? Should I complete the diagnostics or is this a valve problem? I haven’t taken it on the freeway yet to check the OD, but it always worked fine in the past.

No, I didnt do any stall tests yet.

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 01:08 AM
OK!! Thats good were heading in the right direction.
That problem your having with the shiftpoints 3500-4000 RPM
indicates a couple of possability's.
1. The govenor is stuck.
2. Line pressure is low.
Lets check the govenor next.
I'm not advocating any thing illeagle here, so you need an area where you can just stomp the gas and let the tranny shift through the gears, this sometimes unsticks the govenor. If it does'nt work the first time try 1 more time, then head to the house and let me know what it did.

How does the tranny act as its downshifting?

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 01:22 AM
It goes into first when stopped ok, but it is hard to tell about the rest because I am at 3,000rpm doing 40mph. If I slow down a little, it doesn’t shift down, and when I step on the gas the engine will rev until it connects at 3000 rpm. It can be very harsh, so I have to do it carefully. I will check the gov in the morning. This will need the freeway onramp.

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 01:37 AM
OK man, Do not try to set any speed records. You do'nt have to run all the way through each gear. Were only try to shock the govenor to break it loose IF its stuck.
Put it in Drive not OD and just let it eat. If doing that 2 times doesnt fix it then the Govenor is NOT stuck and we will take other steps.

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 02:56 AM
Sounds good! Just out of curiosity, why should I put it in D and not OD?

This is great! There will finally be some good information on this board for people wanting to fix problems on the AOD

Thanks Mike
:D

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 02:03 PM
LOL!!! The main reason is I dont want you running 120 MPH or more, its just not needed. The second reason is we are just trying to make the govenor control the shifting and it does this at high throttle settings. This way we can tell if the govenor is stuck or if its something else. Really all you need to do is run through 1st and 2nd gear at FULL throttle, that will be enough. At full throttle the tranny should shift at or very near 5500 RPM, if it does not then let off the gas, come to a stop and try it again if it does'nt start working after the second try get home and let me know HOW it acted, you dont want to mess something else up.
The thing were trying to do here is make the tranny hold the gear as long as the govenor will let it. When the tranny makes a high RPM shift when and IF the govenor is stuck this usually shocks it loose and it begins to work again.
Let me ask you a few qeustions.
Have you had this car since 97?
Does it get driven much, or has it set for a period of time?
If its set for awhile, how long did it set?
During the time you have owned the car, have you ever changed the fluid?
If so how long between changes?
What about filters? Have they been changed as well?
When did all this start happening?
Go into as much detail as possable about how the tranny is acting, because every detail you can give me tells me where to look for problems.
Automatic tranny's are pretty complicated and I havent gone into any detail yet about there operation because I do not want to confuse matters right now. Lets get to the bottom of your problem first. I'm compiling a care package of info for you on the AOD once we figure things out one way or the other. One of the things you will be getting is a schematic of the tranny completely torn apart, valve body and everything. Once you see that you will understand why were approaching it this way.
I've never diagnost a tranny over the internet before, so I'm really having to rely on YOUR senses here. I need as much detail as you can give me.
Beleive it or not YOU CAN have an AOD that will handle anything you throw at it without having to resort to expensive and supposedly exotic tranny builders.
If I told you how much it actually costs to build a bullet proof AOD
you would probably throw up, because you already had one rebuilt and you know what you paid and your starting to get an idea of what kind of work they did. I'm just hoping they did a better job on the rest of it than they did at setting the TV pressure.

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 03:24 PM
Bad News, I punched it twice on the onramp, and it haled A**. I didn't read this post until now. I'm sure it shifted around 5000rpm, but the exact rpm I'm not sure about because I was watching the road. And... it still shifts at a high rpm. After that it was shifting around 3000-3500.

I bought the car in 97. I changed all the fluid and filters in the car except the dif. Since that time I have changed all the fluids on time. Engine oil gets changed every 3000 miles.

The car did set in a garage from July of 1998 to October 2001 while I was working in Japan. I came back and drove it about once a year.

October 2001 I drove it from North Dakota to Oregon. November 2001, while attempting to drive to the coast, I passed a car on the highway; the transmission kicked down and would not shift back in to 3rd or OD. When I came to a stop, it went into first and would not shift back into 2nd. I had to drive home 10 miles in first gear.

Took it to a local shop and they said something about the clutch and said that it needed to be rebuilt.

The day after I picked it up from the shop it started to shift at high rpm. For the longest time, it would only shift at high rpm until it was warm. Now it does it all the time. I took it back to them many times. They said something was sticking and about the fourth time I took it back they said they replaced the part that was sticking. All of this with no change in performance. Oohh yea... they always returned it to me warm!

I think they put Type F in it at first because the second time I brought it back to them, I asked if they put the right fluid in it and they argued with me about the fluid until I showed them on the dipstick.

I will drive it a little more and pay close attention, so I can let you know exactly what is going on. It is working much better than it did last week, but my gas mileage is for S***!

Let me know exactly what to look for and I will check it out.

Thanks

Duane

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 03:43 PM
I'm going to try to explain the best I can, but its a little hard to do over the internet.
Pay attention to how the tranny shifts gears, is it a soft shift into the next gear or is it firm and scratching the tires when it shifts. For instance do you have to rev the engine higher to get it to shift into the next gear? What RPM does it take to get it to shift to the next gear? Do you have to gas it pretty good to get it to upshift to the next gear? Does it shift into OD?
Drive it with the gear selector in OD and drive around normaly.
Pay close attention to how it shifts and what all gears it shifts through. Check it when it shifts up in gears as well as shifting down in the gears. Pay attention to how it acts.
Are you saying that NOW it shifts differently than it did when we first started? if so, HOW? Tell me what gears you have that are working and how they work.

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 03:57 PM
OK Im going for a drive. I will be back with a report soon. It does vary on how it acts. It was much worse before we got the TV pressure right. I think... no problems changed, just some were eliminated.

But… yesterday it was shifting at a higher rpm than today.

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 04:55 PM
Ok!??? Now it is getting strange. It seems to vary every time I drive it. After taking it on the freeway, just now, it started to stick in second or third when I came to a stop. The engine bogs down to 400-500 rpm, the check gauge comes on, car shutters, etc. I need to shift it into N and back into drive to get it into first. One time I came off the freeway and was stopped in OD and when I tried to move, it was like it was in N. The engine reved, but the car didn’t move. I shifted into D and it worked, then back into OD and it was OK??!!

It is very difficult to do this in heavy traffic. The shift points seem to change constantly. I cant believe this area. There is nothing here, I live in a small city, but we have more traffic than Miami

Now it seems to shift better when cold?!

Cold: today it shifted from first into second at 2200 rpm. That was strange. Wouldn’t shift to third at 3200 rpm

Soon got up to temp

Hot: (at freeway) It shifts at 5500 with the peddle to the floor. First to second and second to third. I don’t know about D to OD. That would be going too fast. Second to third was at about 80+. Not enough onramp! For the first 30 seconds, I was at 80 and 3400 rpm and no OD. Had to slow down to 70 for traffic after another 30 sec the car shifted into OD. The shift sounded a little rough. It sounded strange.. a little hard to describe. Did the same thing the second time, but at 75 mph.

It seems to shift firm, but not hard in all gears except OD at high rpm. At low rpm, when it does shift, it is very smooth, like normal.

After that in town: This was with normal acceleration. First to second at 4000 rpm. Second to third at 3500 rpm. 2500 and no OD

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 05:01 PM
It doesent scratch the tires when it shifts, or at least not that I notice. It doesent appear to need sudden and hard acceleration to shift, it seems to just need high rpm, but it is hard to tell. If it was consistent every time, it would be much easier detect, but it always varies!

Now right before I came home, the first second and second first shift was very smooth and would shift back into first when stopped, but still requires high rpm.

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 06:43 PM
OK, sounds like you have cross leaks in the valvebody. DO NOT drive the car anymore.
Check the fluid see what color it is, smell it to see if it smells burnt.
You cant miss the odor of burnt fluid. The fluid should be red not a brown or burnt orange color. Check it and get back to me.

Does it at anytime go into OD?

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 07:05 PM
OK Im off to check the fluid.

It does go into OD on the freeway, but it takes it a while before it goes.

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 07:39 PM
This is something else that is a little difficult for someone who doesent have a lot of experience with automatics.

I compared the fluid on the dipstick to new fluid. Yesterday I had to add a quart because of all the tests.

Color looked the same. The new fluid might be a hair brighter.

Smell?! I asked my wife to smell the oil with me and we both have the same conclusion.

The oil from the tranny does have a stronger smell than the new fluid. You could especially smell it while pulling the dipstick. When put (New & Old) next to each other, the smell was noticeably stronger, but not necessarily much stronger.

Im not sure what this burnt smell is supposed to smell like. The new oil kind of already has that smell in it?!

If I had to guess, I would say it is probably ok or just a little burnt.

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 08:05 PM
Beleive me if it was burnt bad you would know, plus the color of it tells me its not burnt bad.

OK so from what I can tell(the best I can without being there)
You have cross leaks in the valvebody. Let me explain why I think this.
When you said the shifting characteristics started getting worse as the tranny got warmer, that was clue #1.
After you got the tranny rebuilt it did not act right, shifting eraticaly and such, clue #2.
I would really like to know exactally what parts they replaced in the rebuild, but of course we will never know.
I suspect that they did not torque down the valvebody properly and may not have used a torque wrench at all. You would be surprised how many people think they can get close enough without one, I see it alot.
You see when you came to a stop and the car would not go and you had to move the gear selector to get it to go. Something in the valvebody was cross leaking into another circuit and was engaging 2 clutch's at the same time, so the car could'nt move. Kinda like trying to use 1st and 2nd gear at the same time.

If you want to you could try retorqueing the valvebody bolts, you may get lucky and stop the leaks.
If the leaks were severe you would have burnt the tranny up by now and it would act just like you were standing on the brakes.
I dont think it is major, but it is going to require trouble shooting that just can not be done on the internet.

I'm sorry, I was really hoping we could get you going.
The plus side for you is, its not completely shot, but you do need a good tranny man to check it out. Dont go back to the people that rebuilt it unless you have a warranty with them, if thats the case hold there feet to the fire.

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 08:15 PM
What if I pulled the valve body, changed the gasket, put it back on, and torqued it correctly? What is the torque procedure for the valve body?

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 08:27 PM
That MIGHT fix it, if you want to try it I will help you.
You will need an inch pound torque wrench NOT ft lbs.
Do you have one?
Then I'll have to find some way to get you this diagram of the valvebody showing where the checkballs go because they are going to come out when you drop the valvebody.
You will also need a flat machinists file to go over the valvebody mating surfaces to make them flat again because it warped somehow, either because it was'nt torqued properly or the bolts could have backed off on there own.
We really arent going to know how bad its warped until you get it out.
Are you up for this?

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 08:43 PM
Ohh yea.. Im up for this!
I used to be a helicopter flight engineer in the Army. I have a small torque wrench calibrated for inch lbs.

I will get a machinist file. I might even take it too a machine shop and have them check it with a straight edge. Is a file really the way to get it flat? Wouldn’t it be easier to use a milling machine? Of course there is probably a limit to how much can be cut off .

Do you have a scanner?

Thanks again for the help. This is becoming quite the task.

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 09:01 PM
NO dont cut the valvebody with a milling machine.
You just want to lay the file flat across the mating surfaces and without any real pressure rub across the entire surface NOT staying in any one spot, if its warped too badly you will have to get another one. Beleive me ALL tranny shops and dealerships that are any good do this each time they rebuild a valvebody.
Now I'm talking about a fine cut machinist file, not a rough cut bastard file. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

Hmmm...... Helicopter guy huh.....I fly R/C helicopters. Do you think I can fly an Apache??? ROFL!!!!!

Understand we are taking a shot in the dark here because I'm not there and there are other culprits that could be causing the leaks. The things I'm suggesting are the most common, but hell you worked on helicopters, you can probably rebuild the tranny with the needed info and diagrams.
I'm sorry but I do not have a scanner and I no longer have a camera, but I think I can work something out to get you what you need.
Whataya think?

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 09:23 PM
Yes, Im ready! I can repair just about anything with the right tools and information. The standards with aircraft are much higher than with cars, for obvious reasons.

In an earlier post you mentioned a possible problem with the accumulator and replacing it with a rubber coated one. I had read that somewhere else. While we are in here, It might be a good idea to check all of these things and replace or upgrade what is needed. It sounds like the pieces are cheap enough. What do you think?

If you cant get the diagrams into digital form, maybe I can get it from somewhere else (like the library, if they have it) or I could send you some cash and you could copy them and send them to me. Then I would put them into digital form. It is likely that other people will want this information in the future. Let me know what you think.

MIKE 38sc
07-26-2003, 09:46 PM
I like you, you aint sceeeered!!!
Put your money away!
Give me a couple of days and I will contact you by PM or email whichever you preffer.
Since youre up for the game I'm going to send you all the info you need plus the parts list of every component in my tranny and you can build one just like it if you want.
Total cost for that was around $700 for everything but the converter.
New everything! Bushings,clutch's,steels,drums,bands,mechanical diode,pump,seals,gaskets,O rings and much more. I'll help you in deciding which build is for you if you dont want to build one like mine.

duanemyhre
07-26-2003, 10:25 PM
I am more scared of taking my car to another transmission mechanic and getting screwed over again. I know that if I do it, there is a 90%+ shot it will be done right. Its only 90%+ because it is my first time.

At least if I have a problem with my engine and I take my car to a shop, I can talk to the guy and know if the guy is full of **** or knows what he is talking about. Unfortunately, I cant believe the number of them out there who don’t have a clue.

Of course it is likely to be just as bad for transmission mechanics. My experience proves this!

My car is completely stock, so I don’t think I need to build the muscle tranny of all times, but I would like to see what the tranny shop did, replace anything damaged, and upgrade anything questionable. Afterwards… getting a tranny cooler added on. Next year, I might be moving back to Florida.

Also… I keep hearing about stuff floating around after a rebuild causing problems down the road. Is there an inline filter I can add? Even if it is only for just a few weeks.

Your help is great. It will be interesting to pull this thing apart and see what is going on. The part numbers are important because when I talked to the guy at Ford, he didn’t have a clue. He said, “I need to see the part or have a part number. There are too many pieces to those trannys”

How many hours do you think it will take me? How far can I go with the tranny in the car?

I will need to clear some area in the garage to lay out the parts as they come off.

MIKE 38sc
07-27-2003, 04:05 PM
I just sent you an email, let me know if you did not get it.
This thing is getting bigger than the BBS can handle.
I just spent over an hour writing a PM and it would not let it go through. By the time I shrunk it down it did'nt make any sense, so were going to have to go the email route. Man I'm exhausted and aggravated right now.:(

duanemyhre
07-27-2003, 04:24 PM
Mike,

I replied to your e-mail. I usually use duanemyhre@msn.com
Why wouldnt your message work on the BBS? I will ask the admin guys and see what the problem is. This is great reference material for anyone needing info for the AOD. I wish all os this was on there when I was searching.

Randy N Connie
07-27-2003, 04:54 PM
I don't think your post are to big for here.I have been
reading what is happining,Don't go off line with this.:(

Look at how many SCers have been reading this post,

Randy

MIKE 38sc
07-27-2003, 05:11 PM
Well theres a limit on the size of PM's, 1000 characters. I was WAY over the limit. You just cannot talk about auto tranny's in a 1000 characters to someone just learning. LOL!!!
Maybe the best route to take would be doing this through email, then you could do write ups on your journey that could be posted on the site somewhere to help others. I think that would be a nice addition to this site as theres really not much indepth talk here on the subject. Nothing would thrill me more than freeing the SC people from the rip off artists out there.
Everybody out there knows we are pretty much on our own because VERY VERY few mechanics know anything about our cars, nor do they understand them very well.
Everythings about money anymore. The majority of SC owners own these cars because we love them, not because we can make a buck off them.
It really saddens me to hear of a young guy or gal spending 1000's of dollars fixing there SC up only to find out they got took or got very little in return for there money.
The owners of SC's need to learn as much about working on all aspects of these cars so it would be more affordable to own one.
All they need is the knowledge and some mechanical skills, its not rocket science, but there are people out there in the world that would have you beleive so.
Really, if these cars are going to survive, we as owners and lovers of these cars are going to have to educate ourselfs better or we are going to be at there mercy until everyone gets tired of it and gets rid of the car.
I would hate to see that happen.

duanemyhre
07-27-2003, 05:20 PM
You are right! Knowledge is the key.
You could also type your message in MS Word (or any word processor) and then paste part by part into different posts.
OR
E-mail, and I will summarize and add it later.

either way sounds good to me!

MIKE 38sc
07-27-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Randy & Connie
I don't think your post are to big for here.I have been
reading what is happining,Don't go off line with this.:(

Look at how many SCers have been reading this post,

Randy
I would love to, but this subject is getting ready to totaly consume this board. I spent about a year gathing info on AOD's, much of it is no longer available to the public, but luckily I printed ALL of it. I even have info from Fords Powertrain Dept. on the subject of AOD's in SC's. I was shocked at what I found. I dont want to hord all this to myself and I'm not interested in making a dime off it either. Cars are my hobby and involving a dollar bill in it would ruin it for me.
I dont know what to do with the info except share it with the ones that want it. I'm setting here looking at a stack of papers 1 1/2" thick and thats only about 1/2 of it. Do you see what I mean? Any ideas?

MIKE 38sc
07-27-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by duanemyhre
You are right! Knowledge is the key.
You could also type your message in MS Word (or any word processor) and then paste part by part into different posts.
OR
E-mail, and I will summarize and add it later.

either way sounds good to me!
I would love for there to be a place on this site with real indepth tech info on subjects such as this, But I just cannot do it on my own. There is just too much of it, if you want to help with this,fine, but we may need more people than just us 2. LOL!!!
To be honest it is'nt going to happen overnight. There is just too much to sift through, it will take some time.

duanemyhre
07-27-2003, 05:56 PM
That is ok. I will just create a summary of what we did and post it. That is better than nothing. Information like the pressure diagnostics, torque specs, and where to buy the book alone is a great start.

OK I made my order.

Should I start by pulling off the pan and valve assembly? I found a write up and removing the valve assembly. Check it out and tell me if I should follow these instructions.

What about these check balls and other things that will fall out. How do I keep track of them?

duanemyhre
07-27-2003, 05:57 PM
Let me start by saying that I don't recommend anyone try this without prior trans experience. If you must learn by doing, you have to start some where right? First, remove the pan, then the three bolts securing the filter to the V/B, then all the remaining bolts securing the V/B. When you remove the bolts you will find there are 2 different lengths, but there location is obvious. (to me anyway). You should also notice that 2 bolts are different than the rest. They fit tighter in their holes. These are line-up bolts. It is VERY IMPORTANT that they be re-installed first and in their original locations. When you have the V/B off you will need to replace the gaskets. (unless you get lucky and don't tear them, even the slightest damage is unacceptable) On the back side of the V/B you will find three disks bolted and one other bolt by itself holding what is called the separator plate. Note there is a gasket on both sides and they are different. When you remove the plate be sure to have it facing up as if it were on the trans. BE VERY CAREFUL as under it there are 2 one-way valves with springs under them beneath the plate. Be sure to note the color and location of both. There are also several small rubber balls and one larger ball under the plate. It is VERY IMPORTANT that they ALL be reinstalled in their original locations or the trans WILL NOT WORK. So be sure to TAKE YOUR TIME and mark them with a small "X" right next to where they go. I use a pick to lightly scribe the mark into the aluminum. When you have it apart, check to see that all the valves are free. there are alot so take your time. if you find one that is stuck, you can first try slamming (I know this sound harsh, but i do it all the time) the V/B down HARD AND FLAT against a metal or sturdy wooden work bench. I put the side facing away from the trans flat in the palm of my hand and swing it over and slam it flat on the bench. If you land sideways or hit one side way before the other, you just bought a 400$ V/B and learned how NOT to do it. if that doesn't work, (usually does) then you will have to remove the valve. and I would be typing all night to tell you how to do that. Sorry. When you put it back together, use the 2 line-up bolts to line up the gaskets and plate while you put the bolts back in. order of these is not important but they should be torqued to 90-100 inch-pounds NOT FOOT-POUNDS thats about 7-8 foot pounds. V/B bolt should be torqued to the same, but tighten them from the center- out. I should conclude by telling you that if your fluid shells burned or if you find metal filings in the pan or black goo,(burned clutch matierial) then don't bother because your trannys toast and needs to be rebuilt. (you can get your gaskets from Ford if you insist on trying to fix it yourself, Just be sure to give them your vin when ordering.)

duanemyhre
07-27-2003, 06:09 PM
Wow!

I don’t know if I should be happy or sick. Its great to know that you can buy the parts for the tranny at such low prices, but I get sick thinking about what I paid that shop to screw up my tranny!

www.bulkpart.com (website to buy AOD & AODE parts)

Do you have an idea about what things I will likely need? Do you have an idea if I need to pull the tranny, or I can do this from under the car?

MIKE 38sc
07-27-2003, 06:13 PM
Ohhh......Youre going to be good at this!!!
Where did you learn that? We had'nt even talked about that yet.
You been hold'n out on me? LOL!!!

duanemyhre
07-27-2003, 06:23 PM
Yea... Im great with the search function. I told you I was good with technology ;)

Notice, it says how to pull it out, but not much about diagnosing problems with it.

I needed more information for it to be useful

I hope it can save you some typing. Let me know if everything on it is OK.

Thanks

Funky info for you... Did you know that the worlds largest cargo helicopter is in Alabama, at Ft. Rucker (US Army home of Aviation)

It was a prototype, and the reason they didnt complete it was because they couldnt develop a transmission, at that time, that could handle the weight and power from the engines.

It is too big to fit inside the museum, so they have it parked on the front lawn. The tires are about as tall as I am.

MIKE 38sc
07-27-2003, 06:37 PM
I did'nt know that! I'm somewhat of an aviation buff myself. Theres a fellow here that bought an old Saber jet nicknamed the shooting star, I beleive it was an F-86? Anyway he totaly restored it to original condition(except the guns of course, the guns are there they just arent operational) I sometimes go out and watch him fly it. Oh man would I LOVE to fly that plane!

I bet a helicopter tranny has alot in common with a car automatic tranny. I dont think you could direct drive rotor blades straight off a turboshaft engine, but I may be wrong about that.

Oh...The info you posted is right on!

duanemyhre
07-27-2003, 06:57 PM
Most of them have a slip drive so you can auto rotate. There are special mechanics who do the internal tranny and engine work on aircraft in the military. Flight engineers dont get sent to school for that. It would be to much to actually be responsible for although the information would be good to know.

I have flown helicopters in the military, but I have never flown a fixed wing aircraft. I would love to get licensed and build my own. Helicopters are just to expensive.

I would think flying RC helicopters would also be difficult. You probably have instant reaction time. Some of the larger and older helicopters have a delayed control input time. The helicopter is always correcting about a second or two after you change the controls. I saw the military testing the tail of the RAH 66 in 1991 on the body of another helicopter. It was very strange looking. A glossy white helicopter with this flat green tail boom with fan tail.

Will I need to pull the tranny, or can I do what I need to from under the car?

duanemyhre
07-27-2003, 06:59 PM
I dont know what this is, but... will I need to mess with the lip seal?

MIKE 38sc
07-27-2003, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by duanemyhre
I dont know what this is, but... will I need to mess with the lip seal?
Uhhh....What part is this lip seal pertaining to? in what text?
There are so many generic terms for this stuff. Did you pull the valvebody?
Yes if you do anything other tham valvebody work youre going to need to pull the tranny. Thats why MY philosophy on tranny work is "Do it right the first time or do'nt do it at all"
You have to admit, it would not be fun at all pulling it and half*** fixing it because you will keep doing this until you give up or die, thats just the way Automatic trannys are.
Anything that goes wrong ends up getting pumped around inside the tranny taking out anything in its path. Thats why a $20.00 clutch failure ends up costing $1,200 or more.
When an auto tranny mess's up you should shut it down right then and do some diagnostics. Very seldom do you get lucky, but it has happened. I'm hoping your luck is good!

duanemyhre
07-27-2003, 09:02 PM
The reason I was asking about the lip seals, is because there is a special tool for Ford AOD lip seals. Will I need any special tools?

I was hoping this would be a relatively easy fix, meaning I wouldn’t have to pull the whole tranny this time. Then I would find another tranny and go through it piece by piece. I want to learn what makes these automatics tick! There is not point in remaining ignorant.

But… If pulling the tranny out of the car is what is needed to do the job right, than that is what I want to do!

It doesent matter if I do it to my tranny now or another more elaborate tranny project after this one, I want to build a tranny that anyone could be proud of. I am very meticulous with my work. Just fixing this one would work for me right now, but it would bother me in the long run.

I also have to make sure my wife wont kill me for spending to much money in too short of time! She doesent notice if I stretch it over time :D

Im guessing you want to know what I see when I pull the valve body before we go further?

Do you want me to complete the diagnostic tests including the stall test before I pull the pan and valve body, or is that not necessary at this point?

If not, Im ready to start pulling that valve body.

MIKE 38sc
07-27-2003, 09:30 PM
OK I understand what your talking about now.
Lip seals are just the normal type oilseals you are used to seeing all the time, like the cranckshaft seals.
The tools you mentioned ARE needed to do a complete rebuild. They are used to provide protection to the lip on the seal as its being slid on over various shafts and such. I know what your thinking."I've put those kinds of seals on before without any trouble" and youre right, but you WILL NOT get away with that on a tranny. Many of the shafts and such have very sharp machined edges and they MUST stay that way. NO putting a nice smooth rolled edge here.
Thats the big problem, tranny shops in general are trying to get them in and get them out. Thats what pays the bills, but its not really good for the consumer. Most places just slap them back together and send you on your way, hoping you never come back expecting them to make there work good if you have a problem.
I think you already experianced a little of this?

Go to the site I sent you to and look at the tools. They are blue plastic rings of all the sizes needed to to overhaul the tranny your working on.

If you want to pull the valvebody go ahead and pull it, but once you drop the oilpan dump all the fluid out and look in the bottom of the pan. You should see a round magnet stuck in the bottom, if the shop put it back in. Look at the magnet and see what if anything is stuck to it, then run your finger across the bottom of the pan and see how much mud is there.

Take pictures of all this with that fantastic camera and post them. We will take it from there.

Is your manual on the way?

duanemyhre
07-27-2003, 10:01 PM
Thanks,

I will get that to you tomorrow. My wife insists that I go with her to a movie this evening.

MIKE 38sc
07-27-2003, 10:05 PM
LOL!! I know what you mean! Go have some fun and tend to the family, thats more important than the car anyway. Besides if the wife aint happy NOBODY"S gonna be happy.
see ya later.

duanemyhre
07-28-2003, 10:31 PM
Im guessing you either are married or at least have been in the past!

I will need to put off working on the tranny until tomorrow. I have been neglecting the lawn and outside chores for the last week and my wife has started to make noise. I will get that pan off tomorrow afternoon. I am taking half a day off. I will have those pics to you soon. If you don’t mind, I will e-mail you some more of the pics. I want to give you a good look and it takes a lot of time posting them on this site.

Thanks
Duane

MIKE 38sc
07-28-2003, 10:42 PM
Yes I'm married. I understand take all the time you need.
I have a house to keep up as well, so I understand.
The big reason I'm not finished with my car is my wife got very sick about 1 1/2 years ago and I just had to shut everything down. I'm about to get started again.
Family first and cars or hobbies second, thats what I say!
That car wont stand by your bedside and hold your hand when your down, but your wife will. Take care of her!!

duanemyhre
07-29-2003, 06:00 AM
That is exactly my feeling! I am sorry to hear about your wife. I hope she is feeling better. Times like that really define what a true difficult time is.

I will be back Tuesday with my dirty oil pics :D

duanemyhre
07-29-2003, 09:48 PM
Mike

I sent some pics to your e-mail. Let me know what you think.

Thanks

Duane

MIKE 38sc
07-30-2003, 01:33 AM
Duane...You have mail!

duanemyhre
07-30-2003, 02:07 AM
I pulled of the pan and found a hole! Looks like somthing missing!

Also... has a thin layer of sedement on the bottom and found a small piece of wire in the pan

duanemyhre
07-30-2003, 02:09 AM
e-mail from Mike

Hey man,
Took a look at the pics. I have to say the quality of pics you have provided are a GREAT help.
Heres what I think.
The fact that you found that much gunk in the bottom is not good. That black gunk is friction material from your clutch plates, its supposed to be on the plates not on the bottom of your oilpan. I'm sorry but thats not a good sign. Another thing that concerns me is the color of the oil. The color itself is good but the fact that you have all that mud in the bottom and its not mixed up in the oil making it blacker in color tells me that your pump is weak. Thats not good.
Now about that wire. The wire is from a wire wheel that the shop used to do some cleaning of parts when they redone your tranny.
This is my theory:
That wire got by the shop for some reason and went through the pump and damaged it, it then went into the oilpan where the filter would not allow to go through the tranny again. One trip through the pump was enough to ruin the pump. Low pressure from the pump eventualy wore the clutch's out.
I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but its rebuild time.
I'm really dissapointed that it has turned out this way. I was hoping you would'nt have to go through this.
I'll say this your attention to details has impressed me, the military did good with you. From what I'm seeing you should have no problem building that tranny, and besides that when you need guidance you GOT ME!!! LOL!!!!!
No ****, I'm willing to help you through this anyway I can.
Did you get the manual yet?
Oh yeah I almost forgot that hole! Hahahahah..... That one gets everybody the first time they see it. Looks like somebody left something out does'nt it? Weeell they DID! In 1989 Ford stopped using a 3-4 accumulator in the tranny. Sure did take Ford a long time to realize it was'nt needed, so they chucked it.
Was the magnet in the bottom of the oilpan? or did the shop leave it out?
I would'nt remove anything else from the tranny because its gonna have to come out.
Take some time , look through the manual to familarize yourself with things and then we will talk and plan out the rebuild, its gonna be cheaper than you think and you can stretch the cost out, no problem.
Let me know the answers to the qeustion I have blasted throughout the Email like a shotgun. Sorry I did'nt centralize them.


My Reply

Mike

Well… That machined hole in the tranny had me worried. I was sure that they forgot to install something. Ford wouldn’t machine a part that wouldn’t need to be. I was happy to hear about that change in 89.

There was no magnet in the pan, and I know it was there in 1997 when I changed the fluid and filter.

I also ripped apart the filter to check it. The inside was clean! On the top of the outside of the filter, there was a light black sediment.

After I sent you the pics, I slowly drained the pan. It was pretty clean. Nothing that was heavy enough to stay in the bottom of the pan.

I do want to replace that magnet! I also found an inline filter that I want to add that was on the internet site you showed me. And… I read something about installing a drain plug in the pan. Have you ever done that before? It would make taking the pan off much easier. The car manufactures have been skimping.

I am very happy that you are helping me! I haven’t received that book yet. I plan to go over it carefully.

What do you think will need to be replaced on the tranny? Is it going to be just clutches, friction plates, and an oil pump? If that last shop replaced the bushings, bearings and other general wear items, they might be like new. I would like to think my money went to something! The pump gear set is only $11.00! I like that! Then replace all the parts that have updated parts available. Not the input shaft and torque converter.

Rubber or plastic coated Accumulator piston, 2 inch OD band. These are some of the modifications I have read about. Do you recomemend these? Are they simple modifications?

Will I need to have any machine work done?

Thanks again for all your help!

Duane

duanemyhre
07-30-2003, 06:03 AM
From Mike

Well I'm a little confused now. You said in your Email that there was about 1/16 to 1/8 inch of black goo in the bottom of the pan. Were you mistaken?
Yeah the pump gears are cheap, if the pump housing didnt get scored you can go that route.
The tranny will have to be removed and disasymbled and everything checked for condition and clearances to know exactaly what needs to be replaced. I would only be geussing at this point.
Some of the things to change and make the tranny more than tough enough would be.
1. install the max amount of clutch discs in each clutch. Ford did not do that and I bet the repair shop didnt either, unless you reqeusted it.
2. install rubberclad 1-2 and 2-3 shift accumulators.(there cheap)
3. 2" OD band, but this mod is not as simple as everybody thinks. The drum that the band wraps around also must be changed for it to work.
4. install drainplug. YES I highly recomend that.

You have alot of work to do and we are going to have several conversations before we come up with a plan. Dont worry I got your back, your gonna be fine. We of course are gonna salvage everything we can. Remember the hole point to all this is your gonna end up with a bulletproof AOD and its not going to put you in the poorhouse.
By the way, drain the fluid out of the torque converter. pull the rubber plug out of the inspection port, its located between the engine oilpan and the tranny. You should see the flexplate or flywheel as some call it. Rotate the engine over slowly and a small plug that goes into the torque converter will eventually come into veiw. When you take out that plug tranny oil is gonna come out so be ready.

My Reply

When I first told you about the sediment in the bottom of the pan, It might have largely been a thick film. I am actually not sure what it was. I was expecting it to stay there after I drained the pan. It did leave a thin black residue on the very tips of my fingers. When I ran my hand through the oil, it felt heaver on the very bottom where my fingertips were touching. Doing this all for the first time makes me question my-self. If I think about an engine oil pan, it has a similar feel. There definitely some friction/metal material in the pan. I could see it when I stirred the pan with my hand.

I will attach some more pics. I hope this will help you.

Can you give me an idea about how much material would be present in a normal transmission?

You are right, I have never read anything about replacing a drum in reference to the 2” band! Well… We will put the 2” band on the maybe list. How difficult is it to install the 2” band and drum? How much is the drum? I didn’t see it on the web site.
Can the pump housing be replaced? I didn’t see that either.

Now I am just waiting for that book. I hope it gets here soon!

duanemyhre
07-30-2003, 06:06 AM
Here are the pics mentioned above

MIKE 38sc
07-30-2003, 02:37 PM
Duane Ive been looking at those pictures and doing alot of thinking. Since when you poured the fluid out of the pan you didnt have a big layer of goo in the bottom and I can plainly see alot of material mixed up and floating around in the fluid you may have gotten lucky and that wire didnt go through the pump.

We can try 1 more thing if you want to before declaring the tranny dead. At the very most you will be out some time,fluid,filter and your labor.
I'm not promising you that it will work, but maybe, just maybe.
You decide, because I'm not the one doing the work, you are and it all may be a waste so tell me. Where do we go from here?

duanemyhre
07-30-2003, 03:41 PM
What is your idea? Im willing to give it a try.

Would it be possible to pull the valve body and check the pump for any damage? Im guessing that the pump is close?!

MIKE 38sc
07-30-2003, 05:44 PM
No you cant check the pump clearances, the pump is mounted in the front of the tranny in the area behind the bellhousing the tranny has to be out to get to it.
The input shafts run through the center of it.
The only thing you can do on an auto tranny without pulling it is valvebody work. Thats why when you do a rebuild you check your work and check it again as many times as it takes to make absolutely positive that everything is perfect before you put it back in.
Most shops just do not do that. Time is money so get em in and get em out and pray everything goes well.
Alot of shops hire a young kid to remove and install tranny's and give them $100 per job while a more a knowledgable guy does the teardown and reassembly. Its a crapshoot.

Drain the fluid out of the torque converter and we(you) will pull the valvebody and go through it. Maybe just maybe you will get lucky and we will find a worn or stuck valve in there, but its a shot in the dark.
Before you remove the valvebody bolts try tightening them and see what there torqued at. Write down the torque you find on each bolt and get back to me.
Take some good pics of the valvebody at all angles and post them at the larger size you used earlier I want to have a good look see at things before you remove it.

duanemyhre
07-30-2003, 10:36 PM
OK, I will gat that info

duanemyhre
07-31-2003, 06:55 PM
OK! I found a significant problem! Apparently the mechanic who rebuilt my tranny thought his elbow worked as a torque wrench. On the valve body, I found a few bolts torqued under 35, many under 65 and all under 90. This cant be good! I hope it didn’t warp my valve body!

I will proceed to pull it off. The wife took her digital camera, so I can not take any pics until after 6pm.

duanemyhre
07-31-2003, 08:56 PM
Wow! It’s a jigsaw puzzle from hell. Keeping track of everything is beyond difficult. Im drawing pictures, marking, and taping together pieces to keep them in order!

East End SC
07-31-2003, 09:21 PM
Apparently the mechanic who rebuilt my tranny thought his elbow worked as a torque wrench.
Yeah Right you would be lucky if he used his elbow He probaly used a 3/8 drive impact gun to zip all those bolts down.

duanemyhre
07-31-2003, 09:41 PM
I would agree except some of the bolts were torqued under 35 inch pounds and they are supposed to be at 90-100. Im sure he has an impact for a brain though:D

MIKE 38sc
08-01-2003, 01:19 AM
OK Duane I'm here. We have the 6 year old nephew as a geust tonight so uncle Mikey has been busy!:eek:
I see you have been pretty busy, and to top it off you already disassembled the valve body.:mad: I miss all the fun!! LOL!
The inside of that thing is pretty amazing isnt it? Almost overwelming in fact.
I also see the tranny shop boys was'nt paying attention. Tsk Tsk:rolleyes:
I can tell you from personal experiance that the valvebody is warped, but thats not as bad as it sounds. We are going to fix it.
Yes that is done all the time, its nothing unusual and does not involve a machine shop or any high priced tools. The tool will cost around $10.00
I'm gonna tell on myself here for just a moment:
Back in 82 I rebuilt my first Ford tranny, a C6. I put a shift kit in the valvebody and because I had put them in GM TH350 and TH400's I thought it would be a breeze. Sure enough the job was simillar but there was 1 important diff I didnt pick up on. The GM valvebody's were 1/2 cast iron and 1/2 alluminum. The Fords as you well know now are completely alluminum, so they are twice as critical when it comes to torque of the bolts and I learned that the hard way.
Anyhow I finished up got cleaned up and went to go for a drive, didnt make it 2 miles and the tranny locked up as if I threw it in park. After I skided to a stop I discovered that no matter what gear I put the car in it would set and brake torque just like I had the brakes fully applied. I used the old elbow torque wrench instead of the proper tool and it just bit me in the *** HARD.
There were so many cross leaks in the valvebody that ALL clutch's had been applied at the same time. Thats NOT good, ALL the clutch plates welded themselfs together, thats NOT good either. The valvebody warped because of my stupidity in not torqueing them properly. Enough of my strolling down memory lane and back to your problem.

Pics for me at this point now are useless, But I do think it would be good to post some really good ones to show people that have not seen the inside of an auto tranny what is actually in there so put em up.
Things will go much better for you if you take detailed pics of each thing you remove and as you remove them put the parts that go together in there owm individual zip lock baggy and write on the bag what the parts are. PLEASE do not MIX up the parts or this is going to get real HARD.
The springs must NOT get MIXED UP.
I think its safe to say you found your problem!:D I just hope we caught it in time, from the looks of the fluid I feel good about it.
I think we caught it in time.
I'm just waiting for some good pics of the valvebody and up into the case once the valvebody is completely out before I render a final verdict. The tranny shop may have NOT done a complete rebuild, its an old trick and its done all the time. They replace $30.00 worth of clutch's put some new seals in and reuse everything else. That happens all the time and they dont get caught at it because the tranny has to be removed and completely torn down again to catch them. They may have replaced some parts with other parts they had laying around already to speed the job up. Thats another old trick. Its not like raising your hood and looking to see if the new alternater you just paid for was infact installed. You cant look at the tranny and tell they did anything other than clean the outside of the case. You do not know whats inside, and thats what counts. But Hey! Things are looking up.

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 01:47 AM
Mike

I pulled apart the valve body and cleaned it up.

Are we going to pull out the accumulators and check them?

I didn’t receive the tranny book I ordered, but I did receive a CD I ordered. It is the Ford service manual an CD. I have the 92, 93, 94. The 92 has an AOD just like mine and the book (CD) is pretty good. It has a breakdown of the whole tranny.

I will send you some pics in about 20 min. 10:10 PDT

MIKE 38sc
08-01-2003, 01:58 AM
Waoh there Duane. One thing at a time. I dont want you taking too much apart at once since I'm not there with you. But I do like your enthuseasm(**** spelling!) So lets exercise caution.

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 02:04 AM
a

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 02:06 AM
Caution hu?! Well… I hope everything is ok? It’s a little late. I got carried away. Don’t worry. I can get everything put together. I have about five pieces of paper maping everything out.

I put each valve assemble on a strip of tape. I thought this was going to be real important at first, but now that I have a book with diagrams, it will be much easier.

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 02:08 AM
P

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 02:13 AM
There was some black sediment in the valve body. Just noticeable. I got it all cleaned out.

MIKE 38sc
08-01-2003, 02:31 AM
Duane thats a very interesting way to keep your parts organised. You done good! But it makes me NERVOUS! Just makes SURE that nothing happens to them. Are you familiar with Murphy's Law?
Now get you a NEW 12" flat machinist file. I preffer Nicholson files, but see what you can ahold of. Just get as good a quality file as you can and remember you want the fine cut NOT course.

Now this time Duane DO NOT do any filling till we get together because I want to make 110% sure you understand HOW and WHAT I want you to do with it. This is very very IMPORTANT.

Take alittle time and study the tranny breakdown on the CD.
Its amazing the amount of parts in a auto tranny, isnt it?

Why dont you take a screen shot of the breakdown on the CD and post it on here for everybody to see.

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 02:52 AM
Sorry about making you nervous. :D I know Murphy’s Law very well!

Machinists file? I went to a large tool shop and they couldn’t find a machinists file in their books? Do you just mean a fine flat file with no handle?

I will not do any filing until you give me a go!

I could not believe how many parts were in that valve body. It took me about ten minutes to decide how I was going to keep track of everything. WOW!

While I work on the file, what about the accumulators in the tranny? I would like to upgrade them to the rubber coated ones, to eliminate any potential problems. What do you think? I would also like to see if the springs are ok. Once we know, I can order the parts I will need. I think it takes about five days for the parts to get here.

Should I pull them out?

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 02:58 AM
This is just five out of the 15 valve assemblies.

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 03:23 AM
Remember those manuals I told you I got. Well… Its not just thunderbirds, Its Ford everything 92, 93, 94.

Let me know if there is any information you want. I could burn a copy and send it to you.

MIKE 38sc
08-01-2003, 03:30 AM
OK go ahead and remove the 2-3 accumulator. Post a nice closeup pics of it at several angles. I need to see what kind is in there. The tranny boys may have gotten artistic.
You already removed the 1-2 accumulator.

The file I'm speaking of is a fine cut flat file with no handle installed, it just has a pointed flat spike on the end where a handle would go. They are about 10" to 12" long.

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 03:34 AM
Should I only remove the 2-3 accumulator, or should I remove all three?

I will have the file and the pics tomorrow.

MIKE 38sc
08-01-2003, 03:43 AM
Ford left out the 3-4 accum you already removed the 1-2 accum
so that only leaves the 2-3 accum, so yes go ahead.
There are only 2 accums in the AOD from 1989 and up.

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 03:50 AM
There are three big things in the bottom of the tranny. I think one is the Low-Reverse servo, one is OD servo, and the other is 2-3. What about thoes two servos? Should they be cleaned out and checked?

MIKE 38sc
08-01-2003, 04:17 AM
What the hell... Yeah go ahead. I think you can handle it.
Lets see some before and after pics of the removal also.

Now be aware that the servo's are spring loaded, so be carefull.
The servos have a long pin in the center of the piston that is sticking into the case and that pin engages with the band, so after you get the cover off push the servo IN twards the center of the case and get a feel for what it feels like when it engages the band. This will come in handy when you reassemble it so get a feel for what it feels like. Once you are satisfied that you know what it feels like when properly installed pull them on out.

Since youre gonna pull the servos we need another tool.
Pick up one off those GREEN scotch pads along with the file.

duanemyhre
08-01-2003, 04:20 AM
Sounds good! I will have it tomorrow.

Thanks Mike!

duanemyhre
08-03-2003, 09:49 PM
Mike,

I have got my File, but I haven’t pulled my accumulator yet. My wife was using Norton System works and was deleting duplicate files. Not a smart move! She crashed my system. I have spent the last couple of days reinstalling my software again and getting my computer working.

In the morning, I leave for Los Angeles on business. I will be back by Thursday or Friday and ready to flatten out that valve body.

Talk to you soon

Duane

MIKE 38sc
08-03-2003, 11:21 PM
No problem Duane. Computers can be such a pain. I built a new one back in Nov and spent 2 months installing XP and all my programs over and over again. I stopped counting at 20. Finally found the prob, RMA'd the motherboard and everythings been fine since.

Duane I've had second thoughts about the servo's DO NOT remove them, but go ahead and remove the 2-3 accumulator.

I'll explain later. Man I hope you see this before you pull them.

markadeck
08-11-2003, 08:55 AM
This can not be the end of this very informative thread. Hope Duane made it back from LA, or is not in jail for killing his bride for screwing up his computer.

MIKE 38sc
08-11-2003, 02:57 PM
I'm settin on go, just as soon as Duane gets back we will get started again.

markadeck
08-11-2003, 03:10 PM
Mike, the man that is going to re-do mine claims he is not intimidated at all. Am I worried for nothing? He claims he will follow your ideas to a T. I am going to be on the road to drag races and other functions while the rebuild is done. Would you want to PM me your Phone # in case the rebuilder has any specific questions? If no, I fully understand, up to you.

MIKE 38sc
08-11-2003, 03:12 PM
Does he have experiance with tranny rebuilding?

markadeck
08-11-2003, 03:23 PM
Yes.

MIKE 38sc
08-11-2003, 03:36 PM
Dont worry then everything I outlined is straightforward theres no Frankenstein type stuff going on. Everything just drops into place like you were using the original parts.
The real trick to doing the things I outlined is just asking for them.
When you have a tranny rebuilt unless you ask for this you will not get it. They will just build it as it is.
The problem with the SC AOD's has been nobody has known what to ask for so they just get a basic rebuild. I'm hoping to help rid the SC comunity of this ignorance.

duanemyhre
08-11-2003, 09:23 PM
Mike! Im back! And… I didn’t have to spend any time in Jail! (Lucky ME!) Its nice to know people are watching the thread. I couldn’t do it without you Mike!

The computer is working (cross your fingers), and LA was great. I even spent a day at Universal Studios (Highly recommended)

At this point, Im not going to touch those servos and the 2-3 accumulator will be out soon. I have that file. What is our next step?

XxSlowpokexX
08-11-2003, 09:50 PM
I cant helpbut to say..I'd:D BE BEATING DOWN THE ~~~~~~ GUYS DOOR WHO BUILT THIS TRANNY!!!!!!!..And make him fix it..I had a larg eproblem with my tranny...After several revouvals and dissasyblys it ended up being a defective shift kit which was installed by previous owner....dammit :O)

MIKE 38sc
08-11-2003, 11:49 PM
Well its good to hear youre not sharing a cell with Bubba! I was gettin ready to form a posse and go search'in for ya.

Lay your valvebody on the bench with all the fluid circuits facing up. Now take your file and lay it flat on the mating surface that the gasket sets on in the upper righthand corner. Lay the file on there with the pointed end that handle would be facing away from you, in other words when you look at the file it will be backwards from how you normaly use it.
Now lightly grab the file in the CENTER of it with your finger tips.
When youre doing this right it will feel as if you are going to loose your grip on it. Try to apply NO pressure on the file towards the valvebody, in other words do not press the file against the valvebody other than the force it takes you to hold the file.
Now slowly pull the file to you while moving from the right to the left.
Be very gental and do not get in a hurry.
You want to pull the file accross the mating surface of the entire valvebody.
You will not be able to go accross the whole valve body with one draw of the file so even things out by making 1 pass covering as much of the surface as you can then repositioning the file so that the next draw covers areas that you could not get the first time. Keep doing this until you have drawn the file across the valvebody 1 time. You will now see all the high spots caused by warpage.
If there is anything here that you do not understand do not do anything and get back on here and we will work on it until you understand what I want you to do.
DO NOT try to remove any aluminum from the valvebody the file will highlight all the highspots and if we're lucky you will not have much work to do to it.
Right now we're just trying to see how bad a shape its in.
So let me recap:
1. Draw file gently across the valve body moving and repositioning the file as needed until you have wiped the whole surface. We will call this 1 pass.
2. DO NOT force the file.
3. DO NOT apply any more force with your hand than it takes to just hold onto the file.
4. Try to keep the downward force in the CENTER of the file and keep it there.
5. Remember use the file BACKWARDS from what you normaly use a file with the SPIKE away from you.
6. Move from right to left while pulling the file to you.

Once you get what we call 1 pass on it hold the surface at an angle to the light and you should see where the file hit the highspots.
Right now thats all we want to do we want to see how bad if at all it is.
If you can capture the high spots with the camera post them, I need to see it as much as possable.

Duane you may get lucky and we may not need to do much at all.
So put one pass on it and lets check it out.

duanemyhre
08-12-2003, 02:24 AM
OK! Im on it!

duanemyhre
08-12-2003, 05:50 PM
I think its perfectly flat!? There were no uneven surfaces? I tried taking a pic, but you couldnt really see anything.

What do you think?

MIKE 38sc
08-12-2003, 06:32 PM
I think that is GREAT!!!!!!!Loose bolts was the only problem.
We are done with that step in the valvebody work.
Now get that 2-3 accumulator out and lets see it.
Once you do that we will start compiling a parts list.
Things are looking good.

Duane since you now have the manual and you have the CD showing you more info. Do you think you could handle a complete rebuild? Not saying you need it or that you should at this point, but you know your mechanical limits better than I since I've never met you personaly.

duanemyhre
08-13-2003, 12:10 AM
Mike,

That is a very interesting question! My simple answer would be YES. Butc I have spent a great deal of time learning about building and machining internal combustion engines and I know that only about 10 or 20% of that information can be found in one book. I do have a lot of training and experience with various mechanical things, but to understand something very well, you need training and experience in that specific technology. General principles apply, but there are always exceptions. Especially when it comes to determining tolerances, measuring methods, parts compatibility, trouble shooting individual componentsc and the list goes on. On my personal scale, I would consider my-self a complete amateur when it comes to rebuilding an automatic tranny (Even with the best book). Although, I would probably be rated an expert compared to the dipstick that rebuilt my tranny last time!!

One thing that would make me real nervous the first time would be laying out the parts and keeping them in order. WOW!! I would like to know how many parts are in that thing!! Its probably not as difficult as it looks, but it is my first area of concern. I would like to see how the tranny shops (Professional ones) do it.

I think this is the type of project that should have some supervision for the first-timer. With a good deal of research, it might not be necessary, but definitely not a bad idea. To do a complete professional job, Im sure you need a lot of training and experience.

What do you think?

Tomorrow, I will have that accumulator out and some pictures posted for you.

Thanks,
Duane

MIKE 38sc
08-13-2003, 12:20 AM
I agree with you.
I'll tell you this: The first time I built an AOD I thought, What have I gotten into? It is pretty intimidating.
Amazing that all those parts fit into a 7 3/4" x 12" hole isnt it?

duanemyhre
08-13-2003, 01:09 AM
I still cant visualize it. The schematic makes it look impossible. That is another reason why I want to get an old AOD and go completely through it. The engineering process for these things must really be a task.

Can any AOD be made into a type A (for the SC)? Would that be easy and still relatively inexpensive, or would it be better to just get an SC AOD? Which is a better unit, AOD or AODE?

MIKE 38sc
08-13-2003, 01:33 AM
Yeah you can get another AOD and we can build anything you want, no problem.
Just make sure to get the right bellhousing pattern(theres only 2 different ones) and tail housing lenght, it will make the job easier by doing this because you wont have to get another case or tailhousing and output shaft.
An AOD out of any N/A Tbird or Cougar would be perfect and you should be able to find one at a wrecking yard pretty cheap.
You might even find one at a tranny shop that needs rebuilding, maybe they would sell it cheap.
Thinking of a winter project?
You cant use the AODE because the computer shifts that tranny, but you can put all the guts except the valvebody in the AOD.
Thats what I did and then I did a little tweaking of my own.
I call it "Frankentranny":D

Got that accumulator out yet?

SCvidar
08-13-2003, 01:42 AM
Hello Duane.
I've followed this thread, and I don't think you'll have any trouble
overhauling your AOD. I'm a mechanic and remember my first
automatic trans. that I rebuildt a few years ago. I've never seen
one inside before, but the trans still works.:D
Vidar.

MIKE 38sc
08-13-2003, 01:52 AM
Yeah I think he can too.
He just needs to do his first one at his own pace so he can comprehend it better. Once he does it he will wonder what all the fuss is about? All those parts are around the shafts and alot of them fit inside drums. I'm still pretty amazed the things work at all.

MIKE 38sc
08-13-2003, 03:33 AM
Duane you might as well check ALL the bores in the valvebody. Look for scoring or a ridge worn into the aluminum. Check the valves for each coresponding bore and look them over for scoring.
We dont want any gouges on the valves either so look for that.

Once your satisfied that the valvebody bores are good go ahead and clean the valvebody for the last time. Make sure you get all metal filings out. You didnt have to do much filing so there shouldnt be much, just make sure you get it good and clean.
Once its clean and dry put it in a new trash bag and seal it up.
We dont want it collecting dust or getting dirty before we work with it again.

Now clean each valve assembly separately, one at a time. Dont mix the parts up from different valve assemblys.
Once there clean put all the parts to that assembly into a zip lock bag this time. We want the parts to stay clean just like the valve body. Label each bag as to which assembly is in it.

Just leave the O rings in place on the plugs and such right now.
We will replace the O rings and seals after you get your new parts and as we install each valve assembly. Thay way we cut down on the possability of something getting mixed up.

duanemyhre
08-13-2003, 11:41 PM
Here are the pics. I am doing a more thourough inspection right now. What does that A 9 14 stand for? There was some black residue on the valve. It is probabily friction material.

MIKE 38sc
08-14-2003, 12:03 AM
Yes Duane thats friction material. You dont seem to have anymore than a normal amount of the stuff in there.
That is the stock outdated 2-3 shift accumulator just like the one I'm holding in my hand.
The new one we will put in is completely rubber coated and does a much better job, and remember it only costs $2.00 and some change.
Duane how does the accumulator bore look?
Look for a ridge anywere in the bore, simular to a ridge you will get at the top of a high mileage engine cylinder. Run your finger up and down the bore and see if you feel any bad spots.
No ridge is GOOD.
If the bore looks good take your green scotchbrite pad and scuff the bore up. All you want to do is remove the glaze. This is simular to honing an engine cylinder bore.
After you have scuffed the bore CLEAN it out real good.
Duane would it be possable for you to get a picture looking up into the tranny showing all the area inside the oil pan?

As for the A 9 14 thats just a mfg code doesnt mean anything to us.

duanemyhre
08-14-2003, 12:09 AM
A

MIKE 38sc
08-14-2003, 12:15 AM
Good shot!
Can you get one showing everything inside there?
Might interest people that are watching all this.
Did you find a ridge?

duanemyhre
08-14-2003, 12:29 AM
Mike
I have completed an initial check of the surfaces in the 2-3 accumulator and valve body.

The accumulator looks good! Nice and smooth! The valve body has a few (probably minor) scuffs here and there. Only one was significant enough to photograph. There is also a pic of the 2-3 accumulator cleaned up. I would like to clean up the boars in that valve body a bit. What tools and method do you use?

Damon Slowpoke Baumann

Yea.. The guy should have his F#*^@& balls cut off. I cant believe these places can stay in business. Everyone I know knows about this shop and their quality of work!

duanemyhre
08-14-2003, 12:33 AM
Vidar

Thanks for your confidence!

I will go take some more shots of the bottom and upload them.

duanemyhre
08-14-2003, 12:43 AM
A

duanemyhre
08-14-2003, 12:46 AM
A

MIKE 38sc
08-14-2003, 12:47 AM
OK that small bore with the scuff is the 1-2 capacity modulator. That scuff will not hurt anything, but take your scotchbright pad and smooth that scuff out so it doesnt feel sharp to your finger.
The only thing it could hurt is if you dont smooth the sharp edges of it, it will put a small cut in the new O ring seal you will install on the plug.

That larger bore next to is the 1-2 shift accumulator.
Check ALL your bores and smooth anything you find like that out with the scotchbright pad.
Check the valves themselfs and look for simular scratch's on the sides of them.

duanemyhre
08-14-2003, 12:50 AM
Mike.

What tools and/or method do you use to clean up the boars in the valve body?

Do you need anymore pice?

Should we start talking about that list of parts I need to order?

duanemyhre
08-14-2003, 12:52 AM
What do you use to clean deep inside the valve body. I would like to clean up all the surfaces.

MIKE 38sc
08-14-2003, 12:56 AM
Those pics are great.(I've gotta get a camera)
Everything looks REAL GOOD.
Youre doing one helluva job there.
I see youre very anal about your cleaning. Thats GREAT because we dont want to get any crap in there.
I hope everybody's paying attention to this because its VERY IMPORTANT to keep everything clean. Just like Duanes doing here.
Should you decide to do some tranny work the first thing you should do is degrease the outside of the tranny if you have buildup.
I'm so anal about it I do it even its spotless.

MIKE 38sc
08-14-2003, 01:04 AM
I just roll up a piece of the scotch pad insert it into the bore and turn it until all scuffs are smooth to the touch.
After I have done that I douche the valvebody real good with brake cleaner and after it dries I blast the hell out of every opening nook and cranny with compressed air. Then put it back in the bag so it will stay clean.

Duane as soon as you go through all the valves and check for scuffing we will be able to make a parts list...........
....So get on with it!!!:D

duanemyhre
08-14-2003, 01:13 AM
I donft know if you can see in the picture, but the bottom of my car is very clean. I usually wash it and the engine every time I was my car. Although, I have found some small areas of grease hiding around the transmission mount area. It bothers me every time I get under the car now. That will be cleaned as soon as I get that pan back on!!

I have worked with some very talented engine mechanics. One of them is very famous in this area for building performance car and airplane engines. Where they assemble the engines looks like a hospital operating room. Working on aircraft in the military was very similar. These are habits that I will carry for the rest of my life. I can drive some backyard mechanics crazy with my anal habits. I can barely breath (from SHOCK) when I see someone tear apart an engine and put it back together without cleaning ANYTHING. I am very surprised to see these engines run afterwards!? For mec balancing and blueprinting an engine is just a basic rebuild.

I hope im not making anyone sick:rolleyes:

MIKE 38sc
08-14-2003, 01:32 AM
My God Duane....You could be my long lost brother!!!!
I got chills running up my back reading that. You just described me to a T.
I thought I was the only one that cleaned up under the car when I wash them.....and of course why have a clean car and a dirty engine! I cant stand that oily,greasy,dirty crud that gets on engines so I never let it get started.
Man I'm gettin creeped out now.

But really cleanliness is VERY important to doing any tranny or engine work as you know......I cant get over it........even the blueprinting thing.......Well at least I feel better knowing I'm not all alone anymore.
You know what they call it dont you?............
Obssesive Compulsive disorder!...
Ahhh, Whats in a name!

duanemyhre
08-14-2003, 01:47 AM
Obsessive Compulsive disorder, that new TV show hMonkh, and the movie gAs Good As It Getsh, are all reasons I donft like to tell people about my habit!! I am not sure if I should be happy or scared that there is another person like me out there!

My friends have asked me to help them with their cars a few times, and the first thing I tell them is they are going to need a few cans of engine cleaner and carburetor cleaner before I will touch anything. I could never work in a regular shop.

When I first got married, my wife got angry because I finished cleaning and assembling a set of triple cabs on the kitchen counter. I needed to use the hot water and soap for the final part of the cleaning process! She didnft believe me, so I had to show her that they were as clean as any of her dishes. Possibly cleaner!!

I have since installed a large sink in the garage. My wife had NO objections :D

Well Mikec Its nice to know we are thinking on the same level!

MIKE 38sc
08-14-2003, 01:58 AM
Yeah well it takes one to know one if ya know what I mean;)
I've been qeustioned many times about why it is I really need to use a stainless double sink IN THE KITCHEN!!!
Actualy I cleaned up that sentence just now as well.:D

duanemyhre
08-14-2003, 02:20 AM
Well Brother :D

Tomorrow I will get started with cleaning up and further checking that valve body. I need to buy some scotch bright pads. I will let you know how it is going tomorrow.

Duane

MIKE 38sc
08-14-2003, 02:25 AM
Cool.....Just be sure and get green ones.
The courseness is color coded so green is what you want.
See you tomarrow!

duanemyhre
08-15-2003, 01:19 AM
OKc

I have made some progress, but I havenft finished yet. So far, everything looks good. I have to improvise some sort of tool to reach deep into the valve body. I will let you know how it goes.

MIKE 38sc
08-15-2003, 01:25 AM
Good! Have you found any valves to be in bad condition?

Why are there little box's in your posts? STOP THAT!!!!!:p

duanemyhre
08-15-2003, 03:56 AM
Mike,

All of the valves look good so far, but I haven’t finished checking them yet. My wife has allocated some of my time this evening. I think she may be getting jealous of my new brother :D

Sorry about my boxes. My computer is set up to function in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and English. It is strange, but the English fonts in the Japanese setting are different. I don’t see the boxes, but you do. My internet shouldn’t display the Japanese English, but it does. I will have to see if I can fix it. Something else to add to my list of things to do. I hope this post doesn’t have that problem!

markadeck
08-15-2003, 05:39 AM
I too am following this thread very closely. Thanx for bringing up those little boxes Mike, they were driving me nuts also. Could it have been triplets Mike? I am at least as anal about cleanliness as you two. My bride once threatened divorce when she opened the dishwasher and found my Edelbrock intake hogging the entire bottom shelf. My AOD is in the tear down stage right now and I am also hoping for a very detailed parts list, with parts #'s. I am on the road going to the IHRA races in Ohio and am taking my tranny man at his word, he is going to follow Mikes directions to a tee. I have on the road fax and internet capabilities in my motor home so anything critical can be faxed to my tranny builder immediately.

MIKE 38sc
08-15-2003, 03:30 PM
Markadeck part #'s depend on his source of parts, most suppliers have there own system and without me knowing who he's sourcing parts from and having one of there catalogues any part #'s I give you would probably be meaningless.
Thats why I gave you part descriptions instead.
If he's a tranny man he knows exactaly what I'm talking about, they ALL do.
You just will not get those parts unless you specify them. You did and he said no problem, so I beleive he knows whats going on.
If he didnt I would think he would qeustion why you wanted them.
Dont worry, I think you will be fine.
He didnt say anything that would alarm me.

I'm not going to tell how many times I assembled and dissasembled my tranny and shortblock before I was totaly satisfied that everything was right. No one would beleive it.
You should have seen how I cleaned the block after I got it back from the machinist.
Nice to know we are not alone!
I'm gonna try to post a picture of my block later.

East End SC
08-15-2003, 06:17 PM
Take a long cotter pin open it up a little and put a small piece of the scotchbrite in the opening press it closed and then put it into a electric drill to "hone" the bores of the valve body.
Just go slow and easy and don't over do it!

duanemyhre
08-15-2003, 11:43 PM
Mike,

OK! All has been cleaned and inspected. All the parts look good!
What is our next step?

East End SC

Thanks! That sounds like a good idea.

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 01:47 AM
Time to decide what you want from the tranny.
You tell me, Do you want firmer shifts or do you just want to put back stock?
Give me a budget to work within and we'll get you going.
If there is anything to discuss now is the time. So let me hear it.:)

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 02:05 AM
Right now, the wife and I are trying to save money so I want to keep this on the low end. No sacrifice in quality though!

What do you mean by firmer shifts? Same RPM, just shorter duration? That might be nice. Stock has a real nice and gentle feel also. I have moods for both from time to time. What will that mod cost? A moderately firm shift would probably be appropriate. Not like my friends car that barks the tired when it shifts.

I think I will use that in-line filter for a few weeks as well. Just to make sure everything is clean. (You Know ME!)

Do you have any suggestions?

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 02:31 AM
I understand, thats the way I treat things as well. Hell its the only way I could do with my car what I'm doing.
How does $61.95 for parts only. You would still need to get your fluid and buy a normal filter for it localy.
Does that sound allright?
If so I'll post the list.

Duane I know that you have wanted that filter ever since you laid eyes on it, but let me say this. We dont need to add a potential problem where no problem exists. If you add that filter you are then adding 4 potential spots for oil leaks. The part I really dont like is its installed in the cooler lines and if that filter were to plug or worse yet come apart internaly your tranny would be toast before you knew what happened. Because you would get no warning of the failure. Think about that for alittle while.
I was going to suggest that after driving the car a couple weeks to change the fluid just to be sure any contaminates are washed out. You got lucky and didnt have metal shavings being pumped through it so it will be fine.

Any way let me know if youre comfortable without the inline filter and paying $61.95 to fix it or you can gamble and go with the filter in that case you'll have to add the price of the filter to my total.
Either way let me know and I'll put up the parts list and you can get your stuff on the way.

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 02:55 AM
Mike,

Now you have me thinking about that filter. Considering that I don’t have any experience with those and I don’t know anyone who has either, it does raise some questions. I could make sure it wouldn’t leak, but if it did plug up, that would be a problem!

I already have my fluid and a normal filter. I got some AAMCO semi-synthetic stuff on sale at Autozone. Mercon 5… I think is what it is. It says it is compatible. I would never use semi-synthetic in my engine, but I thought its probably different for a tranny. It would just handle the heat a little better. Do you know if it is safe? If I change it out in a few weeks, I will just put some cheap stuff in it now.

Don’t forget that drain plug I want to add!

60-80 bucks sounds great!

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 03:23 AM
You know I've never used semi synthetic or full synthetic tranny fluid because no one around here sells it. But I would love to try some. The fact that it handles heat so much better can only be a plus. I dont see a downside to it at all.
I'm gonna have to find some.

Duane did you drain the torque converter?
I suggest you do so.

I'll post the parts list shortly.

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 03:35 AM
I use synthetic in my engine. I will put full synthetic in my next tranny. It was just too expensive right now.

I haven’t drained it yet, but I will soon.

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 04:06 AM
OK Duane here it is, go to the site an get your stuff ordered.

1. 27958 1-2 shift accumulator...Bonded rubber.................$6.29
2. 27956M 2-3 shift accumulator...Bonded rubber...............$2.48
3. 27954 Reverse servo cover.....Bonded rubber...............$3.44
4. T3020 Drain plug kit............................................... ..........$14.39
5. 27026 Overhaul kit...AOD 80-93......................................$25.29
6. 27930 Trans Go shift kit....AOD 80-92..............................$23.45

Items 1-4 are in the Hard Parts section.
Item 5 is in the Rebuilders Kits section.
Item 6 is in the Shift Kit section.

All of the above mentioned sections are listed under parts for
Ford AOD-AODE-4R70W tranny's.
If you have problems let me know.

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by duanemyhre
I use synthetic in my engine. I will put full synthetic in my next tranny. It was just too expensive right now.

I haven’t drained it yet, but I will soon.
Yeah Ive used synthetic oil for over 20 years and I'm a beleiver.
No one around here has ever sold the tranny fluid though.
What kind of price range does it run?
You do realize that with the converter drained it gonna take several more quarts of fluid to fill it this time, dont you?
Generaly a little less than 12.5 quarts will be needed.

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 03:28 PM
Great! Now I can order my parts.

I believe the fully synthetic oil was 4-5 dollars a quart. Redline was even more. I bought that AAMCO semi-synthetic stuff on sale for 2.29 a quart. I bought 13 quarts. I think I’m going to go buy some cheap stuff to run in it for a week and then change it and the filter out.

What do you think about the AMS OIL (sp?) system? I run AMS OIL in my wifes car. I think it is good oil, but they say you only need to change the filter at 12,500 miles and then change the oil at 25,000 miles. I kept an eye on the oil, and after 6,000 miles, I had to change the oil because it looked too dirty for me to be comfortable with. The filter wasn’t cleaning all of the contamination out of the oil. I am also using an AMS OIL filter. I know AMS OIL has a large dual filter system that does thoroughly clean the oil, but my wifes car isn’t worth the expense. My wife commutes almost 90 miles per day and I was hoping that I cut down on the oil changes. This winter, I might go with that dual filter system.

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 07:58 PM
PROBLEM!

After looking over with the book, I found a problem. This might be the reason my car wasn’t shifting right, or a problem with the book. Either way, I need to make sure before I install this back into the car.

The 1-2 accumulator had TWO springs. One on the inside and one on the outside of the valve. The book only shows one on the outside!

Question is… Is the book right?!

OK… More to the problem! The other book I have shows both springs!!?? It says at the bottom that the spring is not used on all models.

Lets remember the main problem with my transmission. I didn’t shift right from first to second. A dumbass rebuilt my transmission. Did he just add the spring because it came with the rebuild kit?!

How many springs belong in my 1-2 accumulator valve assembly?

Im sure that only one can be right! That would change the complete dynamics of how the valve moves!

One last point. It says the 1-2 accumulator size is different in some models. Are we sure that the new 1-2 accumulator is the right size? Do I need to mic it or measure it?

I haven’t completed my check of everything yet. I will go through everything in the next few hours.

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 08:13 PM
I thought I would post some information on how I cleaned my bores in my valve body.

I took some aviation safety wire (probably any strong wire would work) and some green scotch bright pads. I cut the pads in various sizes, and used a drill to twist the wire tight. I used pliers to stop the twists at the pad.

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 08:42 PM
Hello Duane!!!
Well I see you have found some more tranny shop follies.
Dont worry everything I listed is the most recent parts available for the AOD-AODE.
The older models had the smaller 1-2 Accumulator.
The one spring that is NOT shown in the manual is NOT needed, just put that spring up somewhere.
See when you buy a overhaul kit for an auto tranny you will get alot of parts that are not used in your tranny. Manufacturers package there kits with all the stuff needed to build ANY AOD tranny from 1980-1991 so you will have several parts left over.
Thats why I didnt want you to remove any O rings or ring seals until you have new parts in hand. You will have to go through the new parts and compaire them to the old parts in order to put everything in the right place.

Aparently the tranny boys had not done too many late model AOD's and didnt realize the extra spring was not needed.
You are right though that did affect the 1-2 shift on the car.
But that by no means was the root of your problem. That only help make the 1-2 shift a little early and soft. If after we get it running again you dont like the 1-2 shift we may put that extra spring back in so dont loose it.

The shift kit you got only firms up the shifts it does not move shift points around(reprogram) I dont recomend reprograming a street tranny except in rare special cases.
I can hear it now, I'm gonna get flamed for making that statement but I stand by it and have my flame retardent clothing on.:D

Pull the plug on the converter and let that thing drain until we are ready to put everything back together. By draining it that long it will let more of the old stuff get out and we want to get as much as we can, within reason Duane!;)

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 08:46 PM
Those little brush's you made are pretty neat! Just dont get too carried away with them. You dont want to remove much aluminum. You just want to remove the shiny glaze.;)

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 08:59 PM
As far as Amsoil is concerned I like it. But I DO NOT beleive in letting oil changes go that long. I have got in more trouble from Amsoil users for making that 1 statement than I have for anything else I've said. Some of those people act like there in some kind of oil cult! So if anybody out there does not agree with my view on the subject thats fine I dont have a problem with what you do with your oil. No need to flog me. You do what you want and I'll do what I want. OK? Peace!!!
I just dont like black oil in my engine, I dont care how good your filter is the oil is black for a reason and if its as clean as some people insist then why is it black?
I'm done talking about extended oil changes.

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 09:06 PM
Mike

Great! I was worried that you might not know about that spring. I would like to punch that guy who built rebuilt my tranny in the balls!

So the smaller accumulator and second spring belong to the older AODs?

Are there any other parts they may have installed, or not installed, in this tranny that would be in the generic rebuild kit?

What years or S/Ns separate the tranny types?

I will pull the plug on that torque converter.

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 09:38 PM
Things like the clutchpacks and the hard parts are all pretty much the same with a few exceptions with trucks being 1 of those exceptions Police cars and taxi's being the others.
The real fun part is the valvebody's. Some of the springs are vehical specific. Thats why a 88 GT with AOD might have good firm hard shifts but yet grandma's Crown Vic with AOD is like driving a magic carpet. Valvebody springs are the only difference.

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 09:42 PM
Do you know anything about this Police version AOD?

I have heard a rumor about a police model SC that had a 30 gallon gas tank and some other mods. I thought it was a myth.

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by duanemyhre
Do you know anything about this Police version AOD?

I have heard a rumor about a police model SC that had a 30 gallon gas tank and some other mods. I thought it was a myth.

Yes Duane I know about the Police SC AOD. Thats what mine is!

I dont know about the gas tank but I would'nt doubt it.
I read with great humor a thread that someone started about the Police pkg's and there was a guy claiming to know all about it and that there was no difference in the engines and tranny's.
Oh how WRONG he was.
He couldnt get a part# for an OD band in a Police car because he dont know how to get it. He told on himself BIGTIME to anybody that has actualy done it.:D But there he was tellin this and tellin that. The sad thing about it is I think some people think he's knowledgable buy some of the responses.

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 10:19 PM
So what is the difference in the tranny and engine?

What parts would need to be changed to build a police AOD? What about the engine? This is interesting.!

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 10:38 PM
Well Duane I have to be REAL carefull now because I dont want to get anybody in trouble.
Let just say that you need inside help because the general public cannot just get the info on the internal parts of Police engines or tranny's, its a very closely gaurded subject with Ford and only certain people know how and can access the info.
Its so gaurded that the people getting the parts do not know and cannot find out the part #'s themselfs.
I dont even know the part #'s myself....They were removed by Ford before they were shipped.

I dont think any of the SC cruisers had any different motor parts than a reg SC but I dont know that for shure. The tranny's sure did. I didnt check into motor parts. Took me alittle while to get what I needed because we had to take everything nice and slow so as not to attract attention. Didnt do anything illeagle but the BIG boys would'nt like it and people could lose there jobs.

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 11:04 PM
Mike,

I sent you an e-mail.

What parts are going to be in the new shift kit?

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 11:15 PM
In our parts list, it says the 27958 1-2 shift accumulator (Bonded rubber) is for the AODE. Does that matter? Is it all the same?

what is the difference between the
27931 Superior Shift correction package AOD and the
27930 TransGo Shift Kits AOD 80-92

The web site doesent give any info. Sorry about all the questions!

MIKE 38sc
08-16-2003, 11:28 PM
Dont worry Duane I've got your back.;)
Youve got mail!

duanemyhre
08-16-2003, 11:52 PM
Thanks! What about thoes shift kits? Is there any difference other than 35 cents?

MIKE 38sc
08-17-2003, 12:03 AM
Yeah theres alittle difference. Every shift kit maker does things alittle different. TransGo is the best AOD kit in my opinion.
I like to use what I know works. Once others have proven there just as good I have no problem using them.
In this case"If it aint broke dont fix it" applies.

duanemyhre
08-17-2003, 12:07 AM
Im with you brother! The product you are familiar with is usually the best choice. Lets stick with that.

When should I pull that reverse servo?

MIKE 38sc
08-17-2003, 12:13 AM
Leave Mr servo alone right now. I want you to be able to remove the cover and stick the nice new one in quickly so it doesnt disengage the band.

Got to go play hubby Duane, Wifey is getting lonesome.;) :D

We'll talk more later.:cool:

duanemyhre
08-17-2003, 01:55 AM
Enjoy your time with the wife! I will talk to you later.

duanemyhre
08-18-2003, 01:34 AM
ttt

Danzajax
08-18-2003, 03:01 PM
Im about to change my fluid from whatever was in there to this new BnM Fully Synthetic Mercon Compatable Auto tranny fluid. I work at az and i spend alot of time reading the backs of the synthetic stuff because i knew i needed to change mine. It cost a pretty penny, but i rationalized it by saying "how often do i get a chance to change my tranny fluid....so i dont wana put junk in it" Ill put up a fresh post about it when im done. My tranny was rebuilt sometime a while back (before i got the car) and it has a mild shiftkit in it.

One other question. Ive recently noticed a slight wheeze (i guess the best way to say it) coming from the trans as the car goes to shift. Just as i feel the car hit the right speed theres a wheeeze ...shift. Is this really bad? I knoticed a buncha aod do this. Should i rush it to a transmission shop? it seems to do it before all the gears. Im not noticing any fluxuation in performance.

MIKE 38sc
08-18-2003, 03:17 PM
I dont like the B&M trickshift fluid if thats what youre talking about.

MIKE 38sc
08-18-2003, 11:17 PM
Hey Duane! Hows it going? Making any progress? Got your valvebody ready to put back together?

duanemyhre
08-21-2003, 01:08 AM
I will need to wait until next week to order my parts. My wife put her foot down. Everyone get their rest and I will charge the batteries in my digital camera and soon Mike and I will put that thing back together.

MIKE 38sc
08-21-2003, 01:21 AM
Thats cool Duane! No problemo!
Did you get my Email the other day?

duanemyhre
08-21-2003, 06:04 AM
Edited out ... duanemyhre 8/21/03

duanemyhre
08-21-2003, 04:23 PM
Mike,

Did you get my e-mail?

MIKE 38sc
08-21-2003, 04:40 PM
Yes I did Duane, I'll get in touch with you alittle later with details.
I'll use you more freq used email address. I didnt realize there was 2 different ones and thought maybe my outgoing mail was not getting through. I'll holler at you.:)

duanemyhre
08-27-2003, 06:10 PM
OK!

I just ordered my parts. They should be here soon!

MIKE 38sc
08-28-2003, 01:02 PM
Good deal Duane!
When do you expect them?
Duane you have mail!:)

markadeck
09-02-2003, 09:09 PM
I should get my car back tommorow, I have been out of town for nearly 3 weeks and have been unable to observe any of the progress. I printed a large portion of this thread and gave it to my rebuild man, and he promised to follow the directions to a T. We shall see. I will post the results. Course there is the chance the damn bill will be so big I will have to sell the car, to get it out of the shop.

MIKE 38sc
09-02-2003, 09:33 PM
Glad to hear youre getting your car back tomarrow.
Let me know how it went.
Duane should be getting his going sometime this week if he has the time.:)

markadeck
09-04-2003, 11:02 AM
Works great! Chirps the tires when it hits 3rd gear. But:confused: will not go into overdrive, Know why now, but do not have time to fix. Have to get on the road ASAP. The rebuilder did not know that when you changed the reverse drum, something also had to be done differently to the valve body. Damn Mike, I sure hope that info is not here in this thread and I missed.

MIKE 38sc
09-04-2003, 12:05 PM
Nothing has to be changed in the valvebody when you change the reverse drum. Sounds like the OD servo is not engaged with the band.

With the gear selector in OD gears 1-3 work fine is that correct?
How about downshifting? Does it do that allright?
Did he set the TV pressure properly?
Describe how the tranny is shifting just driving normaly.

markadeck
09-05-2003, 11:02 AM
Mike, when in overdrive 1st to 3rd perform as should be, but when it automatically goes to OD it might as well be in neutral. Plus during my drive to Buffalo from Charlotte yesterday (700 miles) some clown in Summersville, WV with a Z28 wanted to play at a light, so that was the first time I stood on it from a standstill. For want of a better discription all I can say is, boy, talk about violent wheel hop. I know it is not wheel hop, but that is what it feels like. To say the least I am not a happy camper right now. The only thing I can think of to give me that kind of feeling in the seat of the pants is no rear tranny bolts????? But probably not likely. I had to continue the drive because I am scheduled for surgury here today. Have not asked the man about any settings, if the OD servo is not correct, does that mean another r and r?

markadeck
09-05-2003, 12:09 PM
Excuse me Mike, I have not tried downshifting, will do next time I drive it. Yes it shifts just fine, nice and hard, but not too hard. I sent the man the link to this thread so I presume he will phone me and answer the TV pressure question. I just had no time to stick around Charlotte any longer yesterday, he was willing to work on it more, but I did not get here till 3 in the morning as it was.

MIKE 38sc
09-05-2003, 12:32 PM
No dont manualy downshift it. I was talking about automatic downshifting when stopping. You shouldnt have to rebuild it unless you hurt it by driving it while its malfunctioning.
But he will have to drop the valvebody to get to the OD servo.
Theres another fella on the board that put a shift kit in his and mistakenly pulled the OD servo and then reinstalled it, But it was not engaged in the OD band so he had no OD either.
Thats the only thing that could be. Because all the other clutch's and the reverse band are working.
The wheelhop you spoke of I have no idea on, Unless you are talking about a shudder?
What kind of torque converter did you put in it?
What gears are you having this hop in?:confused:
Good luck with your surgery.

markadeck
09-05-2003, 03:16 PM
Yes it downshifts automatically, but will downshift manually only under throttle conditions. Just a steady throttle like holding 40 mph, but as soon as I let my foot off the throttle when it is downshifted, say into second gear it returns to a might as well be in neutral condition same as OD. The wheel hop feeling happens in 1st gear and needless to say I am not dumb enough to continue on into 2nd. What I just told you, and remember I am clueless when it comes to auto trannys', the TV must not be properly adjusted. Will that also affect OD, and is it something someone that might as well be blind can adjust. Hate to drive this another 700 miles as is. Other than these few "minor" (lol) problems, it sure works great.

MIKE 38sc
09-05-2003, 03:34 PM
Yeah the TV pressure could be causing the shift problems.
Does your man know how to set it properly?

markadeck
09-05-2003, 04:53 PM
My man is in Charlotte, NC. I am in Buffalo, NY, temporarialy. Could it also be the OD problem? If so, and it ain't to complicated could you post it and I will forward the thread to a pal in Rochester, NY that does have the stuff to fix it with. I do not even have a screwdriver with me. Thanks very much, Mark

duanemyhre
09-06-2003, 05:56 AM
My parts arrived today…Im getting started!

duanemyhre
09-06-2003, 06:07 AM
Mike,

It looks like I might have run into a problem. I noticed that my 1-2 accumulator valve is much smaller than the one I ordered. I do remember reading that there are some different sizes. I called some tranny shops and went to Ford. The only accumulator I could find for my tranny is like the one I have. I guess I will just stay with the old one.

You can see from the picture that the 2-3 accumulator is of much better quality than the old one. I’m sure that bonded rubber will seal much better.

duanemyhre
09-06-2003, 06:20 AM
I have spent about the last four hours re-cleaning and assembling the valve body. I took each valve and cleaned and fitted it into its bore. I used a scotch bright pad to clean and fit my parts. After everything was properly fitted, I did my final cleaning and assembled all the parts with ATF.

Mike… What is our next step? I hope I haven’t jumped too far ahead.

MIKE 38sc
09-06-2003, 02:24 PM
Sounds like youre coming along fine!
Bummer about the 1-2 acc.....Oh well, it was a shot in the dark but the stocker with new seals will be fine in this instance.
Before you reinstall the valvebody be sure and replace the reverse servo cover with the new one.
Just take a look at the 92 Ford manual on how to change it out.
No need to pull the servo just change the cover. Remember its spring loaded but its not bad.

Once youre ready to install the valvebody take your time and make sure you get the correct gasket on the correct sides of the seperator plate.
Make sure you get the servo support plates torqued properly and get the checkballs in the proper places.
Once you get it up in there and youre ready to tighten it start on a bolt closest to the center of the valvebody and work your way outward in a criss cross pattern.
Tighten the bolts in 2 stages, 1st stage tighten them to the lowest torque measurement then make another round this time tighten them to the highest measurement.

My advice to you now is take your time and make sure everything is where its supposed to be. Once your satisfied everything is allright, Check it 1 more time then button it up.

Sounds like you found all the seals you needed for the valvebody.
I beleive your good to go.;)

MIKE 38sc
09-06-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by markadeck
My man is in Charlotte, NC. I am in Buffalo, NY, temporarialy. Could it also be the OD problem? If so, and it ain't to complicated could you post it and I will forward the thread to a pal in Rochester, NY that does have the stuff to fix it with. I do not even have a screwdriver with me. Thanks very much, Mark
Mark I'll see if I can get Duane to email you the info because its kinda long and Duanes pretty good at doing that stuff.
I never have mastered cut and paste or whatever in the hell it is that you have to do. :o

markadeck
09-06-2003, 04:20 PM
Mike , maybe my turn to help you. First off, I forgot to answer your torque converter ?, I did not change it, did drain all the old fluid though. Now C and P. Open the page you want to C and P, hold the curser anywhere on the text, push down and hold the control button, one left click will highlight the entire text. Then right click the text and left click copy. Go to whatever page you want to paste it to, such as a reply on this forum, right click, left click paste.....Bingo the copy will appear. It is really simpler than it sounds even.

MIKE 38sc
09-06-2003, 08:19 PM
This 1st list adress's the shudder problem you have. These are the things that can cause that problem.

Possible Source(s):
§ Improper fluid level.
Action(s) to Take:
§ Perform «fluid level check»

Possible Source(s):
§ Manual linkage misadjusted/damaged.
Action(s) to Take:
§ Check and adjust or service as required.

Possible Source(s):
§ Low main control pressure.
Action(s) to Take:
§ «Control pressure test»

Possible Source(s):
§ Valve body bolts--loose/too tight.
Action(s) to Take:
§ Tighten to 9-11 N-m (80-97 lb-in).

Possible Source(s):
§ Valve body dirty/sticking valves.
Action(s) to Take:
§ Determine source of contamination. Service as required.


Possible Source(s):
§ Forward clutch piston ball check not seating/leaking.

Action(s) to Take:
§ Replace forward clutch cylinder. Service transmission as required.

Possible Source(s):
§ Forward clutch piston seal cut/worn.

Action(s) to Take:
§ Replace seal and service clutch as required.

Possible Source(s):
§ Forward clutch stator support seal rings leaking (No. 3 and No. 4).

Action(s) to Take:
§ Air pressure test especially if forward clutch plates are burnt.

Possible Source(s):
§ Low one-way clutch (planetary) damaged.

Action(s) to Take:
§ Determine cause of condition. Service as required.
These are all things that can cause the shudder. You will just have to start at the top and start eliminating things until you find the problem.
Now I'll make a post about the lack of 3-4 shift.

MIKE 38sc
09-06-2003, 08:28 PM
Here are the things that can cause a no 3-4 shift.

Possible Source(s):
§ Throttle linkage --misadjusted/bent/sticking.

Action(s) to Take:
§ Adjust throttle linkage. Service as required.

Possible Source(s):
§ Direct clutch circuit leakage--Perform «Direct Clutch Pressure Test» to confirm.

Action(s) to Take:
§ Check torque on valve body bolts. Tighten to 9-11 N-m (80-97 lb-in).
§ Check for nicks or porosity in the case passages. (Valve body to case mating surface). Replace case for the above.

Note: Burnt direct clutch plates will help to confirm leakage in the direct clutch circuit. Replacing only the plates and not finding the cause will result in a repeat service.

Possible Source(s):

Action(s) to Take:
§ Direct clutch piston check ball leaking. Perform «check ball leakage» procedure; found in cleaning and inspection portion. Replace piston if leakage confirmed.
§ Direct clutch piston seal rings (inner and outer) leaking. Replace.
§ Check the direct clutch output shaft seal rings (No. 5, No. 6). They should move freely on the output shaft. Check for metal shaving contamination or burrs between the seal and the output shaft. Replace as necessary.
§ Check the large seal rings on the output shaft for freedom of movement. Check for contamination such as metal shavings on the output shaft. Replace as necessary.
NOTE:
The four large seal rings are numbered 7, 8, 9 and 10. Seal rings 7 and 8 (closest to the output shaft hub) are for the direct clutch. Seal rings 9 and 10 (closest to the governor) are for the governor.
§ Inspect the output shaft feed passages and the cup plug for leakage.
Possible Source(s):
§ Valve body contamination/sticking valves.

Action(s) to Take:
§ Clean the valve body. Check for sticking valves as follows:
§ Overdrive servo regulator valve; 3-4 shift valve; 3-4 TV modulator valve; orifice control valve. If any valves are sticking and they cannot be freed, replace valve body.

Possible Source(s):
§ Main control gasket distortion.

Action(s) to Take:
§ Check if main control gasket is blocking an orifice. Replace gasket.

Possible Source(s):
§ Case out-of-flat can cause sticking valve.

Action(s) to Take:
§ Reduce valve body bolt torque, tighten to minimum side of specification 9 N-m (80 lb-in).

Possible Source(s):
§ Governor leakage.

Action(s) to Take:
§ Check last two large seal rings on the output shaft (No. 9 and No. 10). They should move freely. Check for metal shaving contamination or burrs between the seal and output shaft. Replace as necessary.
§ Check the seal ring bore at the rear of case for scoring. Light scoring is permissible. Deep grooving indicates case wear. Replace case for deep grooving.
§ Check the governor to output shaft retaining ring to make sure it is properly seated on the output shaft. Service as necessary.
§ Check the fit of the governor counterweight on the output shaft. If the fit is sloppy, replace the counterweight.

Thanks for the C&P class Mark!
:D
These are the things that can cause a no 3-4 shift. But since it was just rebuilt I suspect the OD servo is not engaged into the OD band. I'll post that in a minute.

markadeck
09-06-2003, 08:39 PM
Thanx Mike, does this mean the C and P trick I posted for you worked?

MIKE 38sc
09-06-2003, 08:46 PM
Overdrive Servo


Removal

13. Using a hammer handle or wooden dowel, push down on the servo cover and remove the retaining ring.
14. Remove the cover and piston as a unit.
If the cover sticks in the bore, use Servo Piston Remover T80L-77030-B or equivalent and air pressure to aid removal.

CAUTION:
Make certain a portion of the Servo Piston Remover T80L-77030-B or equivalent extends over the bore to prevent the cover from flying out of the bore.

Remove spring.
Just reverse the procedure to reinstall. As you reinstall the servo you must make sure the servo pin is engaging the ears on the band. I think that it is not engaged right now because its an easy mistake to make.
I'm stupid about stuff like this because it would take me a week or more just to assemble the tranny to make sure its perfect.
I dont like to redo work and I would'nt want to pull the tranny out of this care twice, so I'm very particular, so much so its irratating to the people around me.

I tried to C&P the drawings but they would not post. I dont know how Duane did that.

markadeck
09-06-2003, 09:11 PM
This is really off subject. He may have scanned them first, cuz all I have ever been able to c and p is text. Course I did not even know how to find the on/off switch on a puter til I was about 50. The man in Charlotte that is responsible for my transmission now has access to this thread, so hopefully the car will get me home, cuz all this info you are giving me makes me dizzy. Thanx again.

duanemyhre
09-06-2003, 09:12 PM
Thanks Mike

I have a small problem. Where is the drain plug for the torque converter? There is an opening to the flex plate, that I think should have a cover and does not (a problem for a later day) I have spun the engine many times and marked the flex plate as I went. No drain plug, just the mounting bolts. Am I looking in the right place? You can see the oval space in the front of the tranny I have been checking in the pic. The location is not in my tranny book. I will check my Ford CDs next. Would running the engine for a short time get some of the fluid out… And would it be safe for the tranny??!!

Markadeck

If you need any diagrams or anything from the Ford Manuals, just let me know. The problem Mike might be having is that many of the graphics that you copy from the CD seem to be split in half and turned around. You have to be able to use a good photo editor to fix them and shrink them to get them on the web. It only takes me a minute or two, but if you don’t know how, it can be a real pain. Mike just got some good software for doing that, but it will likely take him a little while to get up to speed with it.

duanemyhre
09-06-2003, 09:18 PM
markadeck

It depends, but for the most part, you can cut and paste pictures and graphics from almost anything. You dont need to scan them if they are already in your computer.

Let me know if you need any help. Just tell me specifically what you want to do... we can make it happen.

MIKE 38sc
09-06-2003, 09:21 PM
Yes Duane that is where the drain is supposed to be. Are you sure you have made 1 complete revelution of the flywheel?
Give me a minute and I'll post a pic of my old TC and flexplate so you can see exactaly what it looks like. The plug is small and you may have mistaken it for something else.
Do not start the motor.

duanemyhre
09-06-2003, 09:31 PM
Thanks! I thought starting the motor sounded like a bad idea, but I thought I would ask?! :D

Yea, I did sever revolutions. That pic might help!

Thanks Mike

MIKE 38sc
09-06-2003, 09:40 PM
Your flexplate should have 4 slots in it with 1 beside each nut that holds the torque converter, in 1 of those slots there should be a drain plug.
The 1st pic shows the entire flexplate with the TC mounted on it.
Notice the bottom slot, see the little orange plug next to the TC nut?
I'll post a closeup also.

MIKE 38sc
09-06-2003, 09:41 PM
Heres up close.

duanemyhre
09-06-2003, 09:49 PM
Thanks Mike!

Off I go again

MIKE 38sc
09-07-2003, 07:55 PM
Duane did you find it?
Where did you go?

duanemyhre
09-08-2003, 04:59 AM
Sorry... I didnt know you were waiting for me. It is taking too long to try and find it by my-self. I think I keep passing it. I will have my wife turn the engine over for me while I try to catch it. Talk to you soon

markadeck
09-08-2003, 07:37 AM
I am going to stick my nose in here Duane, you should be able to turn the engine over with a wide bladed, heavy duty, long handled screwdriver. As long as there is some sort of fulcrum nearby. Have not done it myself with a super coupe, but with my race motors I would do it quite often, Just use the teeth on the flywheel (flex plate) just as you would pry a bottle cap off.

MIKE 38sc
09-09-2003, 01:23 AM
Yeah...Thats pretty much how you do it. I'm gonna make some kind of tool to do this with eventualy.

duanemyhre
09-09-2003, 01:48 AM
I tried that. I cant reach the gears! They are behind the cover plate.

I finally got it after my wife came home. It should be well drained by tomorrow.

Im ready for the next step.

MIKE 38sc
09-09-2003, 03:13 AM
I remember how I did it now! I just turned the motor over by using a 1/2" ratchet and socket on the HB bolt. Just dont try to turn it fast so the compression leaks off.

duanemyhre
09-09-2003, 04:30 PM
Mike,

That’s what I should have done! It would have been much easier. The engine just doesn’t want to stop in the right place by itself. Once the rain quits, I will be out and at it again. I will keep you up to date.

MIKE 38sc
09-09-2003, 04:34 PM
Cool, I have to work on a crown vic shortly so I'll be back later tonight.

duanemyhre
09-10-2003, 01:54 AM
Everything is going well. Ive started putting it back together.

MIKE 38sc
09-10-2003, 01:59 AM
Good deal!........Just dont get in a hurry. Make sure everythings 100% right. That way if it does'nt work at least you'll know it was'nt anything you did wrong. ROFL!!!!!!!!:p :D

MIKE 38sc
09-10-2003, 02:03 AM
Hey!......You are going to post pics later showing the reassembly of the tranny arent you? Remember were trying to educate here, This is not all about you!ROFL!!!!!!:p

duanemyhre
09-10-2003, 02:55 AM
:D Yes... I didnt forget. I will put it together and post it as it comes along.

on a side note...
I posted a thread warning about the TV cable adjustment from TCCOA to give people a heads up on the deal. I may have stuck my neck out too far. I have already been catching some hell.:eek:

ohh well... the truth must be told:p

MIKE 38sc
09-10-2003, 03:25 AM
Good!
I saw that thread. I thought you handled it very well.
Spread the word, info is power!

duanemyhre
09-11-2003, 04:42 AM
OK… Yesterday, I installed the new 2-3 accumulator valve and a the new reverse servo cover. What a frigin knuckle buster that was! You can see my blood around the reverse servo cover.

duanemyhre
09-11-2003, 04:49 AM
Next was the valve body. I put on the gaskets and cover plate.

The pic is of the valve body with only the first gasket on.

duanemyhre
09-11-2003, 04:52 AM
Here I installed the valve body on the tranny. I screwed all the bolts in by hand, and now Im ready to torque them.

duanemyhre
09-12-2003, 02:51 AM
Mike,

OK! Its all together. I drove it down the block, and it is running fine. I want to re-check the TV pressure next. It rained today, so I will do it Friday.