*DUW* Adaption of Eaton m90 twinscrew to splitport

V6PowerStang

Registered User
here is the main tech thread with over 100 posts by guys that know what they're talking about.

http://v6power.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17941

other forums about this same subject me or someone else started:

http://www.fordpower.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51432

http://www.3.8mustang.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46186

the to-be manufacturer wishes to keep a generally low profile until his prototype is built on a stock v6 (non supercoupe) bottom end and the legalities of his business are worked out. i'm in line to be the first actual tester of this design. i think there are a couple different versions here i'm posting.

sc4.jpg


02_parts.jpg


Pulleys.jpg


diagram of blower:

01_eaton.jpg


i'll initially be running low boost until i can upgrade my engine to withstand anything above 7-8psi. the splitport heads/intake on the 99+ v6's flow much better than the 94-98 v6's and the 99+ v6's won't be making nearly as much boost because of its vol. effeciency. (boost = the difference in flow rates between the blower and the engine) splitports have much higher volumetric efficency so they flow much better then the SC heads, so you'd have to overdrive the hell out of a stock eaton m90 blower to make that much boost. however, generally speaking, more boost and less flow is similar to less boost and better flow. they are generally inversely proportional. it'd be good to keep the better flowing intakes and heads and apply the blower on top of that than reverting to 94-98 heads and intakes and convert a 190 hp 99+ v6 to a 150 hp 94-98 v6. that's what this whole post is about.

pics:

03_intakes.jpg


the key is the adaption between the lower splitport intake and the blower. there have been many suggestions, some more costly than others.

i'm interested in a water-air intercooler and may have it mounted where the battery is now, or maybe elsewhere under the hood. here is the diagram:
sc%202.JPG


pics of a SC blower, fyi...
pictures with inlet plenum/piping/TB on the left.

i may take the stock SC MAF if i am going to use the stock SC injectors (30#ers i think).

a probably parts list in addtion to the adaption kit:

03_list.jpg


i'm new here, but would like to hear what y'all have to say about this.

-----------

My car is a 2000 5spd V6 splitport mustang, mostly stock, almost 14's n/a now.

I will be the first test subject. I want a water-air IC fabbed by him, the adaption kit obviously, and I will have to get a custom sized pulley being that I have an UD pulley on my crank and i will be wanting low boost for now before i can build the engine. i may be getting a SC block later because if i'm going ot build it up right, i might as well get the strongest i can easily get!

thanks, comments and suggestions welcome!
 
I know who V6Sprout is but who is Speed Kills? Did he design it or what? The IC is a neat idea, but what keeps the fins in thermal contact with the tubes?

I would have to see the design of the spiral flex stuff mentioned. If the spirals are wound tight like most of the products I have seen the flow is only disrupted.


The SC is mounted to the strut tower? Hello, is there anyone home???

Geeze I stopped counting all the problems that are missed. No mention of how you are going to get water into all tubes at once (are they series or parallel or what?). Probably using a windshield washer pump. Also a transmission cooler would fit the bill better than the erector set of an IC it's got now.

Mix in some spell check.

It really looks like drawings I used to doodle in school, designing speaker boxes and what parts I am going to use on my car.


"may take the stock SC MAF if i am going to use the stock SC injectors (30#ers i think). "

Won't do you any good the calibration is built into the EEC not the MAF if you use the 30# injectors then you will need an aftermarket MAF that "fools" the computer so that you can run larger injectors. Or a custom chip or tuner, if there is one for your EEC.

Jeff


If it sounds like I'm being hard I'm not.
 
J57ltr said:
who is Speed Kills?

he's a kid. he grew up with a wrench in his hand and works as a techie at a fab shop but knows more about turbos than anything.

J57ltr said:
The SC is mounted to the strut tower? Hello, is there anyone home???
Hahahah yeah those weren't supposed to be posted. my bad. he kidded and posted those and i saved them with other actual pics.

J57ltr said:
Geeze I stopped counting all the problems that are missed. No mention of how you are going to get water into all tubes at once (are they series or parallel or what?). Probably using a windshield washer pump. Also a transmission cooler would fit the bill better than the erector set of an IC it's got now.
yes there are quite a few bugs and outright ERRORS but if you read the v6power thread it'll show you the progression. lots of fun reading right?

If it sounds like I'm being hard I'm not.
[/QUOTE]
no man, it's all good. i asked for feedback, and you're giving me feedback! :D
 
Ya reading's fun, it's late and I have read many of the posts from V6sprout (think his name is Jamie) when he has posted here B4. He was around here a long time, haven't seen him around lately.

Jeff

Hell you're not that far from where I'm at.
 
I would say the intercooler is very similar to what Brian Herron is doing for Mendola's car. Maybe he's designing it for them or that's where the other person came up with the idea.

What's the saying "There's nothing new under the sun".
 
Nettlesd said:
I would say the intercooler is very similar to what Brian Herron is doing for Mendola's car. Maybe he's designing it for them or that's where the other person came up with the idea.

I actually suggested in the V6power thread that he read up on Brian's ideas in the 2.2L thread.

I do not see how this could affect any of the SC guys, other than potentially giving us an option for a lower with an integrated IC. Then again, the Split-Port lower would not fit our heads, so there is really no benefit for us. :) Unless we changed to Split-Port heads.
 
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Well the Laminova system is light years ahead of that system. It is made to have a laminar flow of air around the cores (no turbulence). I helped with some of the design on that system (Ideas for the water manifolds). This system has no direct link between the fins and cooling media. It would need to be soldered or something. The laminova cores are billet.

Jeff
 
V6powerstang

Why use the SC's M-90 ? In stock form it's one of least efficent superchargers you could have picked.

The version used on the GTP would be a far better supercharger to start with if your intent on a putting the IC core on the manifold. It has a much larger inlet area, downward outlet flow and an internal bypass valve that elimanates the need for a BOV. If you keep the boost down to around 7 or 8 pounds you can skip the intercooler all together.

BTW Nice SC engine picture, it sure looks familiar.

David
 
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My memory of thermodynamics is that you get the maximum heat transfer in turbulance fluid flow rather than laminar flow. If you shove a fluid through a pipe you will get laminar flow where the fluid contacts the ID of the pipe.....the turbulant fluid flow occurs in the middle of a pipe. In nuclear reactors this is like what you get when fluid is pumped through the core. The fuel is hot and transfers its heat to the coolant. If it can be controlled you want what is called nucleate boling which would be water flashing to steam at the ID surface of the pipe which would break up the laminar flow and increase the amount of heat you can transfer into the coolant. Too much steam though and it no longer gets stripped from the wall surface, heat transfer goes down and the fuel gets hotter and it becomes a cycle until you get a meltdown which would ruin your whole day.

In a SC though the heat generated by the blower only lasts a short time while you are in boost and though 400 degrees sounds hot it is nothing compared to the heat capacity (how much heat can be absorbed before it flashes to steam) of the circulating water.
 
Your right Duffy as usual, the amount of fins (surface area) and their proximity has something to do with it as well. The distance between fins is .2mm or .0075". :D

Jeff
 
I'm still here, mainly just post in the Ontario forum, but I almost have my SC motor ready to fire up in my stang, its 99.9% done, should start up with in the week.

As for the desig above, its not mine, I have no part in it, I was just postin the pics for SpedKills. The design is interesting, but I still think its easier to just swap the entire SC motor then try to adapt the blower. Mind you seeing the roots blower on a split port motor woudl be very cool. I know Morana was building a split port lower for the SC it was a one off design, don't think he ever had time to finish it but the progress I saw was cool, he was just doing it for fun though I think.

Either way reading the post on v6power is very interesting reading for sure.
 
After reading that 3 page post and studying the design a little closer, I'm convinced that it won't work. The entire design is based on sheet steel (aluminum) plates that are not nearly strong enough to support the HP draw of an M90. The pulley extension apears to be a collection of welded plates that is supposed to spin nearly at nearly 15,000 rpms...I doubt the car would even idle without the whole thing flying off.

The cost estimates are ridiculously low and don't appear to even include welding all the parts together. The liquid IC is by far the worst design I've ever seen. It's a stack of plates that you are supposed to install tubes into and somehow plumb together to hold liquid. There aren't even provisions to space or attach the plates to these tubes the buyer is supposed to find at the local hardware store.

At the risk of sounding harsh..speed kills doesn't know what he is doing. Even though this entergetic 17 year old has a basic understanding of how supercharging and a liquid IC is supposed to function, and I'm guessing has about one year of CAD under his belt..it's crystal clear that he has no actual experince in this area.

I advise anyone interested in his design to require that it be tested and proven on his car first.


They're using the Eaton M90 because it is cheap.

The GTP also uses an Eaton M90.

David
 
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Thanks for feed back guys, I really apreaciated, Yes you are right about it not being good design for an intercooler, I am just getting started so teach me. As I understand there is no need for having a very good intercooler for basic split-port mustang kit, the Autorotor guy, have said that you can have an non-intercooled kit with 6-8 psi and besides blowers will be rebuilt and ported so it should increase abiatic efficency. I realize that good water-to-air intercoolers have a special uneven piping that creates turbulens in the liquid so it mixes and cooler liquid from the center comes in contact with pipe's surface. There is no way to do it cost effectivly in my case. I did not include the pics of intercooler piping in the diagrams , it sequential, water from first pipe will enter second through flexible piping fitted into fittings bolted into each pipes, and that should mix the water a little. Concerning the intercooler not being welded, it a big minus but my manifacture said he could laser cut the wholes so precisly so when it will be assembled it will fit tightly against the pipe, and each fin will be hand checked by manifacturer for tight fit against the piping, but if customer so desires I can have the intercooler welded. Also the diagrams are inaccurate in dimensions the intercooler will measure 12" by 14 by 1" and for high boost aplications two more cors will be added along with additional heat exchengers. In addition I will offer a front mount 2"1 by 12" bu 4" air-to-air intercooler that will take air out of front of adapter and channell it in to the intercooler then take back throught the back panel into intake runners. See the upgrade diagram. Besides this will be tested on a separate v6 t-bird so I will not sell anyone anything before I test it. I also will provide an insured test on ten cars ranging from t-birds and all year mustangs to f-150. Also it very good that you mentioned high temprature, I do have a back up system that will open bypass valve if water temprature gets too hot or if the engine runns too lean or if knock occures(only on SC)
You are right about me not being very experienced about supercharging or intercooling and nope sorry I didn't grow up with a wrench in my hand, my parents are both software engineers and I grew up with computer mouse as a my hand and network cables running through the living room, although all of my realtives' jobs are in some way related to cars, most have their own car repair shops, including my uncle with whom I spent most of my summers and helped out. It was mostly accident repair, automotive painting and welding but I helped to pull apart a couple of 8-wheelers. I just love mustangs and its a shame that no one has provided a cheap way of supercharging a mustang. I hope I can do this and do it right. I really apreciate your feed back, I really need it.:D
 
Speed Kills,

I'm glad you are taking my comments as constructive criticism and not a personal attack. I think it may help you to review the project outlined in the attached link.

http://www.toohighpsi.com/SCTC/sctc.htm

I would suggest that you concentrate on a sturdy mounting and belt drive/tensioner arrangment before spending too much time on the IC. This link will give you an idea of what is needed. You can't extend the shaft or snout of the supercharger by adding a wide pulley. But you may be able to mount it where you can line up with the crank pulley if you don't insist on putting the IC core beneath the supercharger.

To keep cost down, I would suggest skipping the intercooler and keeping the boost down to something like 5 or 6 psi. I don't really think the NA bottom end could handle much more from a roots blower. You can always add an air to air intercooler or a barrel style liquid IC later, but your going to have your hands full with the basics. Good luck.

David
 
Hey, I have read that post before and its a very good set-up.
See David from my calculations I should be able to size the blower pulley up so it will give me 10psi at 5.5k right about where centrifugial blower make their full boost but at about 3k I will have 5-6 psi just like a vortech, I think If I can get the intecooler working ether water-to-air or air-to-air front mount I will have allot more power due to less heat. The mustang engine has proven itself strong and holds up to 11psi of Vortech blower. If I mimic the boost patern of centrifugial blower I will be safe.
I am not worried about driveshaft extension, it will be made out of single piece of 6061 T6 aluminum 1/8 thick it will extend the custom pulley in to alligment with the crank pulley. The base plate will be made out of same superstrong aliminum to support the weight of the blower.
I will skip the intercooler for basic system but will offer it as an upgrade along with smaller pulley. The non-intercooled kit will have about 5-6 psi but upgraded intercooled kit will have around 7-10psi at top. I am focused now on getting blue prints done and testing it. The reason I don't want to just offer non-intercooled kit is because you would have to spend ton of money on the blower and fuel parts and get misely 30-40 more hp. People won't like that at all. Look on the upgrade chart to see how it will work.
Thanks.
 
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