AOD questions.....5 speed guys BEAT IT!(kidding)

[Ryan A Harris]

Ok now I have been spending a few hours looking into a tranny cooller. I would like know what the temps are or should be for an AOD. Does the temp rise with shift kits? or stalls on the converter?

I would also like know, is it better to get larger cooler or smaller one? How well should a cooler cool?

I guess Andrew and Andrew could help out some, I know you 2 are talking about this stuff now too.

Also so how do regulate the temps in the tranny, other than using a cooler?

Fluids: what to use, is a synthetic the way to go here? What about converter fluid any different ones out there.


I would LOVE any input here, I'm new to this AUTO stuff, for tuning it at least.

[sabbySC]

Just buy a decent tranny cooler (the bigger the better). Also run either regular ATF or synthetic, its up to you but chances are you won't notice a difference between the two.

You definately want a tranny cooler at the very least.

[Ryan A Harris]

Sabby, did you get my email? Thanks for the reply.

[92strokedbird]

I looked into this and i believe that the tranny functions best at 180 Deg anything over this and your tranny life is shortened.I believe that the problem with our trannies is with the flow of fluid.

[shotbirdsc]

Ryan,

Here's a link to the tranny coolers that I can get. Let me know if your interested and I can get you the wholesale prices on them.

Here's the link:
http://www.go-rv.com/coast/do/catalog/page?pageNum=660&dealerId=415

or

http://www.go-rv.com/coast/do/catalog/page?pageNum=605&dealerId=415

or

http://www.go-rv.com/coast/do/catalog/page?pageNext=TRUE&pageNum=606&dealerId=415

If your interested let me know the blue part number and I'll check out pricing for you.

Eric

[lazybird4pt6]

I'll TRY to keep this short.

When it comes to any form of cooler Bigger Is Better. It's possible to reduce the cooling effect, but not when you don't have a big enough cooler. You've seen people with cardboard on the front of their trucks in the winter time, right? That's because they're trying to keep the coolant from being cold all the time. You can't do that if you're not getting it in the first place. Purchase the BIGGEST cooler you can afford. For around $100 CAN$$$ you can get a cooler rated around 19,000 GVW. They're not that expensive, considering the alternative - $1500 to 2500 in tranny repairs.
What kind of cooler, you ask? There are two types. One is the tube-and-fin type. I won't even bother getting into this. They're junk. The create a drop in line pressure and that's not good. The other type is the stacked-plate. This is what you want. No pressure loss, and they're self-regulating, too. That means if you don't need the cooling you don't get it. It has to do with the orfices inside the unit.
How big do I need? Wrong question....how big can you afford. If you're planning on a shift kit and/or converter or if you're not, just get the biggest one you can afford. From what i've discussed with several companies the smallest you should get for any "performance" driving (I just call it going to work and home, but...) is 19,000 GVW. Shift kits and converters both generate MORE heat in a tranny. That's very bad, i'm sure we all know that.
As far as additional cooler-cooling....buy a fan ( remember the 8' IC fan I bought off you?!?!). You can wire it to a switch in the cockpit and operate it manually (with a gauge, of course) or you can get "fancy" and control it with a thermostat. That's up to you. You can also get a deeper tranny pan for the AOD. The idea is to put the fluid in the line of air flow underneath the car, thus providing more cooling. Also, to provide more fluid. I would NOT recomend this an a lowered vehicle. One bad speedbimp and you done.
Fluids - go synthetic. It is definetly the better way. It doesn't break down as a conventional Mercon oil would, thus it provides better and longer lasting cooling. You mentioned "torque converter fluid". It's the same as what you run in the tranny.

Ideal temps for most tranny's are 170 - 180. Less is too cold, harder work for the unit. Hotter is detrimental to seals, friction plates and the oil itself. Most people don't even know they're supposed to change their tranny oil every 50,000 KM. What a shame. Change sooner if you "BEAT IT" or have a shift kit and/or converter.

If I may, my personal set up...

B&M Supercooler (28,000 GVW, stacked plate racing cooler, 2nd biggest they make, p/n 70266) $125
Perma-Cool 8" fan (YOU already know about this) $150
Auto-Meter 2 5/8 Sport-Comp Trans Temp gauge $100
The fan will be mounted to the cooler and wired with a switch in the cockpit. It will be manually operated, using the gauge as my reference for temperature.

One last thing, if you do get a gauge the BEST placte to mount it is in the tranny pan itself. Drill a hole and weld it in place. This is the MOST accurate reading you can have, considering this is where your tranny gets it's fluid from.

Well, I DID try to keep it short - LOL!!!

[JimGravelle]

Ryan,

Another great source for info on AOD/AODE's is the TCCOA website. They have lots of good info in their Tech Articles.

From my readings...and it's hard to find a definite answer to this...the standard operating temp of most trannies is between 175 and 195. Anything higher causes trannie fluid to get too thin and start to break down...thus causing wear. Of course synthetic fluid has better temp tolerances. Apparently if the fluid gets too hot it starts to turn into a turpentine like fluid! Scary!

Which leads to the cooler...bigger is better! :D Also type is important! There are two basic types: fin and plate. Fin is a lot like your Rad...great for antifreeze...not so great for oil based fluids in terms of durability and heat distribution. The best is the plate style...and as far as I know the only company making plate coolers is B & M...which is available at your local CTC.

Hope this helps!

Jim.

(Darn...as I preview this I noticed Andrew has posted an even bigger response. DOH!)

[lazybird4pt6]

You and me, both, Jim.

Those Tekonsha coolers are the type you're looking for. Get the BIGGEST one (motorhome-it!!). Those first two links are stacked plate. The third is a tube/fin type (that's a no-no).

[89lxstanger]

how about a price on the first two?
iam very interested

[JimGravelle]

Andrew,

I beg to differ on the location of the temp sending unit. Most places I read (including on the TCCOA) suggest putting it in the line coming out of your trannie, before the cooler, where it's supposed to be the hottest. Being in your pan is not as accurate as the oil has already had a chance to cool first for a bit...

...I guess it would depend on how the fluid flows...

1. Out of the pan...thru the filter...thru the sump...thru the trannie...thru the cooler...then back to the pan.

or...

2. Out of the pan...thru the filter...thru the sump...thru the cooler...thru the trannie...then back to the pan.

If it's scenario number one...the sender should be in the cooler line...if it's number two then the pan is the best place! Thoughts?

Also, being in the pan could be bad if you drive the car year round like I do...the sender would get beaten up in the winter time with all the crappy salt that is put on the roads!

Just my two cents worth!

:D

Jim.

[MercsSC]

Now what would you be doing ....looking at a :cool: er ... for?

"Also so how do regulate the temps in the tranny, other than using a cooler?"

ever notice what the case is made of ....not only light ....but helps dissapate heat ....helping to keep the fluid from boiling ...I can't think of an automatic....I never seen one... that never had a :cool: er of some sorts ...most :cool: in a separate :cool: er ...at the bottom of the radiator .....dave

[lazybird4pt6]

Yes, Dave, you're right. The tranny :cool: er is right next to a rad that, in an SC, loves to get hot. Really hot, sometimes. I wouldn't relly on just the stock :cool: ing effects of the stock :cool: er. You guys run hot enough as it is. The rad temp also effects the tranny temp very much. When the motor is hot, so is your tranny. Just not a good thing. I wouldn't worry on the highway (at speed) but when your standing still....BTW, that was :cool: !

Jim - not sure about the fluid routing, but i'll look into it. I'm not crazy about drilling a hole into my pan, either. I'll check my resources......VERY good point, thanks!
Oh, wait. The filter is installed INTO the valve body, so.....i'm thinking Door #1. Thru the filter, into the valvebody.......

[lazybird4pt6]

Wait 'till Ryan READs all this. I bet he gets past the first few lines and goes :confused: ,:( ,:confused: ,:o , "**** it" - LOL! (J/K!!)

[shotbirdsc]

The techonsha Defender with 21,800 BTU if you guys are interested is $74.00 plus tax. part number 34632 (that's the second link) The other one is discontinued(first link).

Eric

[Turbo351]

200 or less is good.

I would retain the cooler in the rad and add the largest cooler you can.

[SC4LIFE]

All this :cool: er talk is making me feel :cool:

Luke

[Ryan A Harris]

Ok, thats great guys, thanks.

I am looking at one of the B&M units, has those orfices that you are talking about LAZYBIRD. Along with the gauge, I think I can have these for about 200 CDN. Not that bad, I guess. As for size, for the cooler, I'll have to see how much room I have to mount it. Now I know what gauge to buy, seeing that at around 160-200 is where it should kept at(or about their).

MERCS,,,,,its not for my '95 5spd, its for my '90 AUTO.

Wayne, are you saying to use the RADs cooler, and then have that flow into the aftermarket cooler. If so, Why, just to have more cooling?

LAZYBIRD,,,,,those T's you made up, where did you mount them at. I dont say "**** it" to things I need to read. Ok, I kept that part short for you, buddy..;) :rolleyes:

Eric,,,,,thanks for the links. I am pretty well set on the B&M unit as of righ tnow. Thanks again.

Jim,,,, I was over looking into those tech articles over on the TCCoA. I always forget about those, thanks. I like that idea of the sending unit NOT in the pan, for the reason you have pionted out.


Ok, again, thanks guys, I'll be looking into this more, I'm sure to have more questions soon......

[Turbo351]

The tranny temp will likely exceed the coolant temp under most conditions. The rad will provide cooling at low speeds where there is no air flow through the auxillary cooler. On the highway, or at speed, the secondary cooler will further lower the temp. I would run through the rad first, then the air cooler.

I had a huge tranny cooler before that mounted in front of the AC condensor. I was screwed to the lower rad support. This is the best place to put it if you're not running a front mount IC.

[tbirdsc357]

Originally posted by Turbo351
I was screwed to the lower rad support.

I'm so sorry to hear that Wayne. :D

[lazybird4pt6]

GOOD ONE, Steve. You seem to have recovered well, Wayne - LOL!

Ryan - I agree with Wayne, through the stock cooler first, then the aux. unit. I'll bring my B&M unit to tomorrows meet so you can see for yourself, nice and in-person-like. If you make it out, great! Also, the single "T" I have is in plain view, kinda, when the hood is open. It's just a rectangular block with three NPT threads in it for the temp. sender. Piece of (cheese)cake to make. ;)

[Ryan A Harris]

OK, I am having trouble locating the gauge I want to use. I was hoping to run a Autometer(not dead set on it though). The size I want was 2-1/16(to fit in the A pillar pod), white face(phantom), with the range from 100-250 F. All I have come up with is an electric gauge that fits the bill.

Now, my next qustion, whats the difference(in performance of the gauge itself) from the mechanical and the electric gauges?

Thanks for any info.

[Turbo351]

I have the auto meter 2 1/16 ultra lite electric. I would suggest you get this one.

Electric gauges have a sender and you just run wires into the car. Mechancial guages don't use a sender, and you have to run a tube into the car. More potential for leaks.

I mounted the sender on the main pressure port on the driver side of tranny. Works like a charm. The sender in the auto meter kit is the correct size (1/8 pipe) and screws right in.

[JimGravelle]

Wayne,

Do you know if that pressure port exists on the 4R70W (AODE) trannies?

I heard that that pressure port is too high to mount a sender unit to...which will cause the sender to fail over time. I could be wrong on that... ;)

Jim.

[Turbo351]

No, I don't know if yours will have that port.

Where did you hear that? It is a valid concern and I did think of it. The sender is sealed brass design and I'm not overly concerned about it. If it was not a sealed design, I agree that exposing it to that kind of pressure would not be good.

[JimGravelle]

Wayne,

For the life of me I can't remember where I read it. It was a while ago when I was investigating the problems I was having.

Jim.

[lazybird4pt6]

Originally posted by Turbo351
Mechancial guages don't use a sender, and you have to run a tube into the car. More potential for leaks.

Mech. gauges DO use a sender, they need to. It's copper rod, there's no actual tranny fluid in the line going to the gauge. Mechanical gauges like fuel pressure and N2O pressure use braided hose that actually does carry the fluid to the gauge itself (that's why they recomend an isolator for interior-mounted fuel press. gauges - dangerous without it) The temp gauges are all the same thing, the difference is in the face (water, trans, oil, etc.) and in the calibration for the measured temperature range. Don't mean to harp, just trying to inform. (can anyone else picture Wayne scratching his chin "Hmmm, interesting." - LOL)
Ryan, there's nothing wrong with electric gauges, that's what your car uses anyways. Also, and more importantly, it's WAAAAAYYY easier to install an electric gauge than a mechanical one. If you're short of patience don't buy a mechanical gauge. Also, they're kinda "delicate" - wreck the tube and the whole thing is garbage.