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lowflying90
08-13-2003, 10:16 PM
I did about 2 hours worth of grinding porting out the V in top of the supercharger and where the plenum in the back connects to the supercharger.

I'm going to port match the plenum, and the throttle body while I'm at it.

Do people who grind the tabs that contain the bolts off also trim the bolts when they reassemble it?

What should i torque the bolts to on the front of the supercharger/rotors when i reassemble it?

Should i use copper rtv to seal the front of the casing?

Do you think its worth it to strip and polish the blower or should i just use VHT paint on everything to clean up my engine bay?


Thanks,
Jeff

lowflying90
08-14-2003, 09:35 AM
anyone?

1QuikV6
08-14-2003, 10:14 AM
Not a clue Bud. Id leave the blower painted and use the rtv. And a Chiltons Manual should have the torque specs for ya.

MIKE 38sc
08-14-2003, 03:16 PM
No a Chilton manual will not have those torque specs. I dont remember them off the top of my head but will find them for you and post them later tonight.

lowflying90
08-14-2003, 04:10 PM
should i use rtv to seal it up again?

Jeff

MIKE 38sc
08-14-2003, 04:28 PM
Alot of people do but I use Loctite gasket eleminator on those joints.

35th SC
08-14-2003, 05:59 PM
I also use Loctite 518. I torqued the bolts to 65 in./lbs. in a typical crossing patern.

Mike

lowflying90
08-18-2003, 10:33 PM
here's what i did

lowflying90
08-18-2003, 10:37 PM
.

lowflying90
08-18-2003, 10:53 PM
.

lowflying90
08-18-2003, 11:05 PM
what's the easiest way to clean out all the burrs on this?

Thanks,
Jeff

MIKE 38sc
08-18-2003, 11:08 PM
Die grinder and cartridge rolls.

lowflying90
08-18-2003, 11:27 PM
i meant, to get the little aluminum ground filings out. an oil soaked rag is what i'm thinking might work.

Jeff

MIKE 38sc
08-18-2003, 11:39 PM
Well yeah you could use that. I hope you put duct tape over the needle bearings so you dont get shavings in them.
What did you use as a guide to determine how much metal to remove?
You do understand that the blower works on 120 degree timing dont you?

1BADSC
08-18-2003, 11:54 PM
Hey Jeff, Autozone has "New Ford Grey Engine Paint" It looks pretty close to factory paint. You might want to try that.

lowflying90
08-19-2003, 10:16 AM
I may look into that gray paint, or a different color of high temp paint, or possibly strip the paint and polish it. Not sure yet what to do. I'm hoping the porting and polishing will give me 5-10 "free hp".

Jeff

1BADSC
08-19-2003, 11:07 AM
well, with other intake changes you might pick up 15 -20 free HP, possibly 25-30 if your heads are opened up along with the exhaust. Have you done the exhaust on that yet. I would get it done before you blow the head gaskets. You could also pick up an oven from the Want ADs for like 35 bucks or something and powdercoat everything.

lowflying90
08-19-2003, 11:38 AM
when all is said and done the mods in my signature will all be installed on my car instead of filling up the trunk and backseat of it.

once i get my heads, cam, blower and engine bay painted and everything bolted back together i'll dolly it to the exhaust shop to have the pipe bent. I have the headers, high flow cats and magnoflow resonator in the trunk. may go with 40 series flowmasters or borla mufflers.

Jeff

1QuikV6
08-21-2003, 04:43 PM
With all those mods that thing should MOOOOOOOOOOOVE!!!! And Id paint the blower to match the color of the car. If you had some extra $$$ Id have it polished. Polished stuff on my Stang gave it a whole new look even tho a lot of the stock parts are well over 30 years old. I even had the stock Rallye rims polished and they were way ugly before i had it done. Just and idea for something unique under the hood.

tbird88
08-22-2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by MIKE 38sc
Well yeah you could use that. I hope you put duct tape over the needle bearings so you dont get shavings in them.
What did you use as a guide to determine how much metal to remove?
You do understand that the blower works on 120 degree timing dont you?
Just curious, what exactly do you mean by "works"?...and what does that have to do with the porting he's done?

be specific if you will,

'bird

ps: lowflying90...I can fix that for you. :)

Here's one roughed-in
http://www.datarecall.net/~tbird88/index/parts/alum/m90port2176.jpg

from the inside, still a long way to go...
http://www.datarecall.net/~tbird88/index/parts/alum/m90port2236.jpg

jc91sc
08-22-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by lowflying90
i meant, to get the little aluminum ground filings out. an oil soaked rag is what i'm thinking might work.

Jeff

Jeff I've found that when you grind metal like that till it's very fine, the easiest way to get all the sheddings out is to drop a magnet in the the unit and rinse the blower and the magnet should pick up the pieces.

pastera
08-22-2003, 11:38 AM
Wynn

I would say the 120 degree comment is based on a three lobe design which moves a quantity of air every 120 degrees. This is complicated by the 60 degree twist ( used to reduce pressure pulsing). You will need to maintain 120 degrees of rotation between inlet and outlet openings. This would be measured at a point along the length of a lobe from the closing of air path to the input to the opening of a path to the outlet (damn that's not easy to explain). The shorter the distance (in degrees) from input to output, the more leakage will occur, but you will have more time for the rotor to fill with air at the inlet.

I don't think opening the small ports at outlet is really needed. If it is then only by a small amount, those ports are only there to begin compressing the air trapped between the lobes and the case just before it reaches the outlet to reduce pulsing and reversion.

I see you didn't show what you did to the inlet side:) , the most important part of the porting. I think most of the work should be done here and from what I can see it looks like you opened up the area below the lobes pretty well.

Would love to see your finished product.

Aaron

David Neibert
08-22-2003, 11:46 AM
Jeff I've found that when you grind metal like that till it's very fine, the easiest way to get all the sheddings out is to drop a magnet in the the unit and rinse the blower and the magnet should pick up the pieces.

The housing is aluminum, so a magnet won't work.

Just spray it out with a healthy dose of carb cleaner, then use a shop vac to remove anything that may be left over. Just be sure and keep the needle bearings covered.

David

MIKE 38sc
08-22-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by tbird88
Just curious, what exactly do you mean by "works"?...and what does that have to do with the porting he's done?

be specific if you will,

'bird

ps: lowflying90...I can fix that for you. :)

Here's one roughed-in
http://www.datarecall.net/~tbird88/index/parts/alum/m90port2176.jpg

from the inside, still a long way to go...
http://www.datarecall.net/~tbird88/index/parts/alum/m90port2236.jpg
Pastera summed it up pretty well, but then you already knew that didnt you Wynn? :) If you go grinding on the blower housing without taking that into account youre more than likely gonna hurt the blowers oporation rather than help it.
Opening up the slots on the output side DO NOT help the blower, in fact just the opposite. The slots were put there to help make the blowers oporation quieter, thats the only reason they are there. The twisted helix of the rotors looks complicated but if you notice the output opening is in a V shape so that the opening edges line up with the lobes I dont have to get into what happens if you screw that up surely.;)

Nettlesd
08-22-2003, 02:50 PM
How do the rotors come off the plate (not sure what you call that)?

Just think if someone was to machine some nice CNC billet screw type rotors for a direct replacement of the stock helix rotors for the M90. I bet that would create quite a stir in the SC community. Probably sell like hotcakes if they were reasonable priced.

MIKE 38sc
08-22-2003, 03:07 PM
You have to press the gears off of the rotor shafts with a hyd press so you can remove them from the bearing plate.
The helix of the rotors is the twist or screw as some people call it.
The blower housing pretty well dictates that you must use the stock amount of helx(screw or twist) that eaton built into the blower.
CNC or billet rotors would be of NO benefit with a blower.
However there is a co. that has made the rotors out of engineering thermoplastic that has made a tremendous difference in the oporating effency of the Eaton blowers.;)
Who knows, maybe they will be available to the public before too much longer.;)

Nettlesd
08-22-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by MIKE 38sc
The blower housing pretty well dictates that you must use the stock amount of helx(screw or twist) that eaton built into the blower.
CNC or billet rotors would be of NO benefit with a blower.


Could you go into more detail as to why? The ridge in the middle gets in the way because...that sort of thing.

MIKE 38sc
08-22-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Nettlesd
Could you go into more detail as to why? The ridge in the middle gets in the way because...that sort of thing.
I'm not really sure what you mean by ridge in the middle.
I think your talking about the raised straight edge inside the blower housing at the point of the V on the output side. Am I correct?:confused:
If so that ridge has nothing to do with the timing of the rotors.
The timing is controled by the shape of the V opening and how much material is removed from its edges. The timing can be screwed up by puting too much radius on that inside edge of the V. Opening up those 2 little vents beside the V also kills the blower.;) Theres a way to take care of that but it requires some tools and skills most people dont have.;)
The best thing to do if you dont have the tools or skills to take care of the vents is to leave them alone.;) But all this only affects the output side of the blower. It doesnt do any good to go past what you can do on the intake side in relation to the timing of the rotors. Infact it only hurts blower performance. Kinda like putting a cam in an engine with the wrong timing of the valves in relation to how the engine is used. We all know how tricky that is and the blower is no different.;)

Nettlesd
08-22-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by MIKE 38sc
I think your talking about the raised straight edge inside the blower housing at the point of the V on the output side. Am I correct?

Yep, that's it. I don't think you answered my question. Why can't some screw type rotors be made to replace the stock Eaton one's. I thought maybe that raised straight edge might be in the way and that's why I asked about it.

I just don't see why you can't do that. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

tbird88
08-22-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by MIKE 38sc
Pastera summed it up pretty well, but then you already knew that didnt you Wynn? :) If you go grinding on the blower housing without taking that into account youre more than likely gonna hurt the blowers oporation rather than help it.
Opening up the slots on the output side DO NOT help the blower, in fact just the opposite. The slots were put there to help make the blowers oporation quieter, thats the only reason they are there. The twisted helix of the rotors looks complicated but if you notice the output opening is in a V shape so that the opening edges line up with the lobes I dont have to get into what happens if you screw that up surely.;)
MIKE 38sc
With close to 160 of housing vs 120 of rotor I doubt I'm gonna lose much sleep worryin' about loss of airflow due to cuttin' it too close...unless I get stupid with the sawzall and get rid of half the case.

pastera: "I don't think opening the small ports at outlet is really needed. If it is then only by a small amount, those ports are only there to begin compressing the air trapped between the lobes and the case just before it reaches the outlet to reduce pulsing and reversion."

Huh? Releasing pressure, yes.
Adding pressure, no.
"Muffle" the output noise? What for?
(California noise-laws or sumthin'?)

Anyhooz, congrats on gettin' under my skin a little on this one. I plan on opening up the slots even more, heck, might be able to stick yer head in the outlet before it's done because there ain't no slots...just one big toilet!
And yes, the inlet will be plum ridiculous. Trying to perfect a pair of plates for early blower setups, one drops into a machined pocket on the blower, the other replaces the outlet on the plenum. No bolt bosses are harmed in the process.

so there! :D

Hey, this stuff is kinda like a Harley, ain't worth a hoot until modified.

'bird

pastera
08-22-2003, 04:25 PM
The pressure in a roots type blower is created in the outlet chamber. The air trapped between the two lobes and the case is at inlet pressure, it is not until the two rotors mate at the center that the air is pushed out of the lobe space and compressed.

The two smaller ports allow a small amount of compressed air to enter the lobe space before the lobes open to the outlet bringing up the pressure and reducing reversion at the outlet.

Muffling the noise has two effects - reduce the noise (who cares) and reduce energy loss from generating that noise (more efficient). The pressure pulsing is also not very good for the bearings in the blower and could cause a resonance to be excited at high RPM (nasty rotor crunch).

Aaron

BTW: Wynn, did you get my email?

MIKE 38sc
08-22-2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Nettlesd
Yep, that's it. I don't think you answered my question. Why can't some screw type rotors be made to replace the stock Eaton one's. I thought maybe that raised straight edge might be in the way and that's why I asked about it.

I just don't see why you can't do that. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Well.... yes I did. Go to my post before the one I made where you said I didnt answer your qeustion. I clearly stated that another co had made some rotors out of engineering thermal plastic.
However I didnt name the co that made them. The Bayer corporation made them. I also said that the center ridge had nothing to do with it. :confused:

lowflying90
09-01-2003, 11:10 PM
finally got around to finding the disk that i have some pics of the openings .

lowflying90
09-01-2003, 11:13 PM
i think its a little clearer

Deep6
09-02-2003, 12:10 AM
He he, it's not patented, I'd love to see someone try it.

Yes, If someone could design and manufacture Screw (lysholm) type rotors that could be installed in the Eaton case, one would think that efficiency would approach that of the whipple.

And certainly if that Magic thermoplastic was used, one would expect it to exceed that of a whipple....

Of course, I KNOW someone here will shoot down our idea Duane, since they will cite the fact that the eaton case is of the wrong design parameters for flow and pressure pulse requirements or something like that.

T-bird4vr
09-02-2003, 12:42 AM
Wow, good stuff.
Learn something new everyday.
-Julian

J57ltr
09-02-2003, 01:24 AM
That's pretty rough there jeff you are going to clean it up right? If you need it I could dress it up on my milling machine. Juat pay shipping. I have a pic of the one I did on another thread.

Jeff

J57ltr
09-02-2003, 01:41 AM
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22341

MercsSC
09-02-2003, 07:38 AM
is the bayer product...looked into this ...and talk with a new reasearch and development ...dude ...and it got complicated after that..first was what grade of carbon thermoplastic I would need..I had no idea ...and there was like 12 different grades ...
then second was he or bayer ..won't sell me any of it ..unless I bought a ton of the stuff ...so it ended there ...my main concern was the weight of the stock rotors ..they weight in at 4 pounds each ...figuring if they were lighter ...they would accelerate and decelerate faster and requirer less horsepower to drive .... dave

pastera
09-02-2003, 08:11 AM
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0107scc_garage/

Yes, you could port a M90 casing to accept custom rotors to turn it into a twin-screw type but I am unsure of the displacement you could get.

I think it would cost more to redesign the M-90 to accept new rotors than to get a wipple unless you are going to make a few thousand units. The case is in the noise when looking at the cost of building a supercharger, 90% of the cost is machining the rotors.

Carbon fiber rotors would be real nice if we could get them, you could loose 3-4 lbs of mass rotating at 2.5x engine speed and reduce clearances. The mass reduction would not be all that significant, but a reduction in clearances could increase efficiency by a few percent.

Aaron

Nettlesd
09-02-2003, 10:20 AM
Deep6,

Great minds think alike.

Nettlesd
09-02-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by MIKE 38sc
The blower housing pretty well dictates that you must use the stock amount of helx(screw or twist) that eaton built into the blower.
CNC or billet rotors would be of NO benefit with a blower.


I'm trying to find out why you say the above statement. What is it about the blower housing that prevents it's use of using screw-type replacement rotors. That's my question.

Randy N Connie
09-02-2003, 01:41 PM
All you need is a five axis machine ,to machine.
You got the money.I got the man and machine.

randy

Slysc
09-02-2003, 02:02 PM
To make a rotor out of "thermoplastic", they would have to be hollow. You can't mold a big chunk of thermoplastic because of the thermal expansion. It would create voids inside and it's dimensional stability would not be adequate for a blower rotor. To make one hollow, it would have to be molded in a couple of pieces and then assembled which would be of suspect strength.

It may be feasible to create a blower rotor out of a thermoset plastic like a carbonfiber composite or phenolic resin or some other polyester or urethane based resin composite, but not a thermoplastic. A thermoplastic is a compound or resin which can be melted, reformed and reused, thermoset resins form crosslinked molecules when they cure and therefore they will not "melt" like thermoplastic. They are also much more dimensionally stable. The term "engineered thermoplastic" is often misused. It is just a bit more specific than "space aged polymer". Both are mostly used by salespeople more than by engineers.

MIKE 38sc
09-02-2003, 02:39 PM
All I can tell you is that the material is called a Carbon thermoplastic. Thats the only info the man that is working on them has released.
He has had them installed in a test mule for over 1 year now and has diven the mule daily for that time.
The fellas name is Larry Widmer and his test mule runs all over Texas.:)

Jason Wild
09-02-2003, 02:45 PM
How much will it cost for custom rotors?

pastera
09-03-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Nettlesd
I'm trying to find out why you say the above statement. What is it about the blower housing that prevents it's use of using screw-type replacement rotors. That's my question.

The openings are at 60 degree angles, matched to the helix of the rotors. That post you quoted was refering to a change in rotor helix angle (twist) not completely changing the type of rotor

By machining the ports on the case you could run a screw type rotor, the problem is cost. I guess someone with the money needs to talk to Randy.

Aaron

Randy N Connie
09-03-2003, 09:34 AM
To make new rotors ,by the time the program is made
you can buy a whipple, ect.Then the machineing & material
price ,you could get the manifold fabed up for the whipple
for your SC.

The wheel and then the rotors are already invented.
If you want to strain your brain.O n a blower .Do it
all brand new.The new hydrogen fuel motor are why
the new generation blowers are poping up.most of
whitch is coming from Sweden,Germany,ect.

If you want a efficient blower look at the type being
used for some hydrogen powered motors.

randy

suutari
01-04-2004, 07:55 PM
Hmm..I've been reading all of these supercharger porting threads and this is what I've come up with. Most of the effectivenes is gained due to the longer outlet port and it's edge angle thus giving more rotor opening to let the air exit the rotors more freely and inlet side to make it more open at the top to let the rotors catch more air. But remembering to keep at least the 120' degree sealing rotation between the two edges.. It isn't too hard to make something like the magnusson to the inlet side of the old model blower if you have the right tools. I will keep you posted when I get home and start working with my charger.

XxSlowpokexX
01-04-2004, 08:12 PM
You want a whipple..Throw a whipple on..If by chance you did get a set of screw rotors made... and did happen to machined your case for fitment... and the design just happend to be 100% efficient.....YOU STILL WOULD NOT GET THAT MUCH MORE CFM AND YOUD BE IN THE HOLE FOR THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS........So...Just get a whipple such as a 2.2 and get that to fit;O) ..Why do you guys over analyze bad ideas is beyond me!

mannysc
01-05-2004, 12:18 AM
heres what I did to a early model and the intake matches it too.

pastera
01-05-2004, 10:26 AM
Manny

I like the mod to the intake port. That was done with a MIG, correct? Could you post a pic of the modded inlet plenum.

Looking through the intake port, it looks like you didn't port the front of the case at the end of the rotors. The lip at the front causes air to be trapped between the rotors and forced into the inlet at pressure. You don't need to cut a lot out, just enough to allow the air to escape as the rotors close.

Aaron

mannysc
01-05-2004, 11:53 AM
yeah that was with a mig its cleaner now that was a rough cut to shape itI have a tig but cant use it worth a poop yet need more practice.

the mig is for small jobs i mlike it for the intake plenums,

but the lower intakes cant be welded with a mig , and thanks for the info on the lip at front ,

the inlet plenum is almost done needs some surface work then ill post pics it in same shape as the blower case in this picture, my other one is done but its at shop getting a heat coat sprayed on im having the rotors and case coated with the same stuff my heads are being coated with .

I have a rough one i can post here just welded and getting into shape, so dont complain its not even finished needs more welding and surface ing.

did this with a mig not so purty. hard to get penetraition

suutari
01-27-2005, 07:59 AM
Some pics of my unfinished blower development ;)
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/

Randy N Connie
01-27-2005, 08:56 AM
I believe the ultimate material to use for custom rotors .Would be coated
ceramic,on titainium shafts.

Randy

MIKE 38sc
01-27-2005, 11:56 AM
What are your thoughts about Carbon rotors Randy? I know of 2 sets that were made for the M90 by the Bayer corp. I havent been able to talk the owner out of a set yet but his testing has shown some pretty good results.
He's been testing them for 2 + years now and so far all is good.

Randy N Connie
01-27-2005, 01:32 PM
Mike,I don't know what type heat would be generated to the rotors inside on the blower.I do not believe you could use a epoxy as the matrix system.
(glue to hold together.)I believe it would need to be a carbon-carbon
made rotor.(no type resins to hold together).

Carbon carbon lay-ups are done by way of heat and pressures.
The Same way that carbon-carbon brake rotor are made.
That you would see on a indy car.

And you cannot just throw carbon in a mold,and press out the part.
The brake rotor material that I have, from when working with TEXTRON.
Has the fibers engineered to lock the layup together.The rotor are disigned
with the beginning of lay up being in the form simular to a cinnamon roll.
With dirrectional fibers.Then between the valleys of the roll,undirectional
fibers are woven under and over around the valleys of the roll.The layup
is then put in a cylinder ,with inside and outside walls.(makes a 3 foot
long tube.) Then you put the layup in the metal form,into a autoclave
with a press inside the autoclave.It took 3 months under a vacumm,heat
,pressures to make the rotor material.Then it is sliced ,to make a brake
rotor shape.Then machined to the brake rotor spec.Then you install
the aluminum or titainum inserts for the bolt holes.

This is close to the the way Texron builds the end of a rocket motor for NASA

I have thought about this,but not much. Building blower rotors from carbon fiber would be to costly to engineer.To get around the shape,and the centrifical force.So my only thoughts have been aimed toward the use of
ceramics.

The only way I would try carbonfibers as a base material.Is if the layup
was a MMC (METAL MATRIX COMPOSIT)I have design MMC carbon fiber pushrods.This is done by the use of undirectional fibers,with strans of
titanium in the fiber layup to form the pushrods tube.

Carbon fibers as I know it,dos not lened its self to form certan shapes well.

I believe ceramics would be cheaper,lighter,stronger formed in the shape
of a screw blower rotor shape.

I type this fairly fast so I hope its understandable.A hole lot is left out.

Mike this general explanion I hope is enough to get your wheels turnin.
IF not I can talk off line.I cannot tell all that I know on line, because of
contract agreements.

Randy

MIKE 38sc
01-27-2005, 02:29 PM
Randy I know nothing about those rotors except that they are carbon of some type and very light. There was a comment that they were constructed in a way that has never been done before and left at that. They are proprietary so I'm deffenatly not going to get anything more than that. The testing info I've seen has shown a drastic reduction of parasitic drag on the engine and efficency of the blower has spiked upward. Another strange effect has been lower charge air temps at the blowers output which I cannot explain. Theres something going on with them that is causing all of this but damned if I can figure it out.

Randy N Connie
01-27-2005, 02:50 PM
Mike .reason for the efficency & lower temps.

Carbon dos not heat-sink or heat-soak like metal.
With out the use of epoxy as matrix,the carbon would
be more stable than steel or aluminum.less expantion.

Randy

MIKE 38sc
01-27-2005, 03:01 PM
Yes Randy you are correct about that and that was confirmed in one of my conversations with the owner. He stated that the lack of rotor expansion from heat soak had allowed him to run the rotors with extremely little rotor to case clearance. But in my mind that does'nt explain the lower air temps at the blowers output. I'm only geussing at this but I believe its some porting trick he's done to lower the temps.

Randy N Connie
01-27-2005, 03:23 PM
MIKE

less HEAT SOAK,makes for less expantion of rotors.
less HEAT SINK ,less radiant heat from rotors.cooler temps.

Aluminum would be the worst material to use for rotors.
IT would act opposite of carbon.it heat soaks.making
it a heat sink.Making it grow and it radiates heat.

dos that make sence? :)

RANDY

92strokedbird
01-27-2005, 03:49 PM
I had a M-90 that actually heat soaked so much that the rotors expanded and they touched the outer walls and each other and the blower fused while i was accelerating.It burned the belt off of the motor and the car stalled while i was flying on the highway.I know what you are talking about when you are talking about expansion of the rotors. :rolleyes:

Randy N Connie
01-27-2005, 06:53 PM
Mike the best of ALLOY to use as rotor material,Titanium.

Titanium expands at the about the same rate as steel.

You would get an approximate 25-percent reduction in
weight.

Titanium has a closer grain strucure.This would enable the design
to use less material for the same mass strength.So you can
reduce the weight even more that the 25%.

Titanium is the most abundant element in the earths crust.
It just needs to be alloyed with other metals.

The most common alloy is titanium 6-4.It has 6 percent
aluminum & 4 percent vanadium to improve machineability.

Bad things
It cost five the price of steel.

It get gummy when machined.So it requires specialized
tooling & slower feed rates to machine.Cost more to machine.

Randy

92strokedbird
01-27-2005, 07:12 PM
Randy instead of machining the rotors could they not be injection molded out of a liquid compound into a mold.The rotors would not only be lighter but they might be easier to mass manufacture,i am sure if this would go thru then there would be many wanting a set of rotors for their blower.

J57ltr
01-28-2005, 04:50 PM
If you are going to go through all that trouble, why not start by drilling and rebalancing the current rotors. Drill the rotor through the fat part of each lobe.

Jeff

Slysc
01-28-2005, 05:28 PM
Would it be feasible to create a plaster mold of the current rotors and then use that to make a expanded polystyrene foam rotor? Then wrap the "styrofoam" rotors with carbonfiber mat and resin. The rotors would be larger by the thickness of the carbon fiber (1.5-2mm). Then the case could be bored out to accept the larger carbon fiber rotors. It would take quite a bit of craftsmanship to get the rotor lobes to fit together smoothly but if it could be done, it would create a very strong and light rotor with more volume.

J57ltr
01-28-2005, 06:59 PM
I think at the operating temps the foam would melt and cause an imbalance.

Jeff

92strokedbird
01-28-2005, 07:27 PM
Jeff what about a compound like the one you used to fill in the blower back,but that withstands high temps and does not expand as much as metal.The mold could be made from a stock rotor and when done just pressed onto a stock shaft.This would not only lower intake temps but drag on the engine as well.

J57ltr
02-01-2005, 12:32 PM
I am not real sure how it would hold up under the stresses that a rotor see's. The rotors weigh
almost exactly 4# (at least out to .01) the epoxy I used weighs about 1# per pint. Ive never
pressed out the shaft from the rotor so Im not sure how hard it would be. Also the amount of air
that is entrained into the epoxy in mixing the 2 parts would be quite a lot. When I worked for
Western Atlas we mixed up Sylgaurd (its a potting compound) for some of the tools and after
mixing we put them in a vacuum chamber and pulled it down to 29in hg for about an hour or
until it stopped bubbling. That stuff was the consistency of runny silicone. The epoxy is like JB
weld. I am pretty sure that you could get all the air out, but it would take a long time. A vacuum
chamber isnt hard to make, but some of the parts are expensive. The bell must be made of real
thick glass and I wouldnt trust anything that isnt made for this purpose.

I still think drilling and balancing the rotors should be the first step. I saw mention of making
twin screw rotors for the M90 case. I dont think thats a good idea because the twin screw and
roots are very different as far as the location of the inlet and outlet the twin screw requires an
open rear case inlet and a short wide outlet.

Jeff

Randy N Connie
02-01-2005, 01:07 PM
JEFF Your right a wet lay-up would have the heaviest weight.
A pre-preg material is lighter,less epoxy.With the use of a pre-preg
carbon fibers,you can figuar the weight before you do the layup.
And air between the layers is a less of a problem with pre-preg.
So you have less of a problem with delamination.

You could cure the part by vacunm bagging.But a part such as rotos,
the best method would be the use of a press-mold cured in a autoclave.

And the rotor shafts would need to be molded with as part of the lay-up.

Randy

suutari
02-02-2005, 01:06 PM
Do you think really it would be worth the hassle to make some rotors? I don't. even this little mod takes too much time of my hand ;)..

Here is some more pics..got the cast piece done today and the intake machined. Still have to smoothen everything out by hand and tig weld the intake side to adapt sealing surface+some reinforcement ...
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin2/

PS: starting to get there... . Hope I can test it soon and get the rotors back in.
Tell me what you think. Should be really close to magnaportII specs when finished ;)..

J57ltr
02-03-2005, 01:43 AM
Oh hell no, I think making rotors is a huge waste of time. I would lighten the current ones before I tried making new ones. With both rotors, gears, drive shaft, pulley and all the other drive pieces it is quite a lot of weight. You can't really do anything with the gears, but the pulley, shaft and rotors could take a couple of pounds out of the total weight. Just a Ti shaft without doing the other parts would just be a waste of money to me.

I like what you are doing with the blower I noticed one thing in one of your pics that hasen't been done yet. If you notice the 94/95 blower has this peak removed, and on the MP blower it is also beveled to allow air to keep from having to make a sharp turn on this area. It's real easy to do just clamp it to the table of your milling machine then hand profile it after matching it to the tangent from the left and right rotors.

Jeff

suutari
02-03-2005, 10:38 AM
Thanks :). Yeap, that lip is in my to do list allready. Ill keep you guys updated..just got my intercooler core too that is going to be fitted straight on top of the blower to save some space/long pressure pipes and Im hooking up the bypass before that so that circulating air is not warming up the water. It's going to be water cooler...can't wait to get it in my car ;). Which is bmw 325i cabriolet so that explains some weird things not associated with the supercoupe ... :).
Hope you guys keep up with this alltough this blower is going to other car make :)

suutari
04-14-2005, 09:38 AM
http://palkki.oulu.fi/~samila/eatonm90/


updated pictures of still unfinished porting..casting is done(bottom piece) and welding is done. Tomorrow Im machining the intake flat surface and during the weekend I should have time to finish the intake port.

Only things left are scraping the paint of and classbead blow outer surface+possibly painting the blower and assembling the unit...
Its been pretty long project...

If anyone has idea of good paint remover let me know. here one paint remover was 20e/L so that is quite expensive. The blower has to be soked in the liquid to get all paint off because scraping etc. is real pain with because of the cooling fins..

suutari
04-15-2005, 07:22 AM
now the intake side has been lathed down...the tool I had was not the best but its okay as Im using some gasket sealer and normal universal gasket to seal the intake port. During the weekend Im trying to get the paint of and smooth the intake and do the final grinding by hand. Hope I can get it together in couple weeks. Ill post some more pics when its assembled.
Huh, this mod for sure is not for the fainted hearted!

http://palkki.oulu.fi/~samila/eatonm90/tn/imukoneistettu.JPG.html

XxSlowpokexX
04-15-2005, 05:28 PM
I would think the case would still expand..Regardless Im sure less weight is key besides heat soak of the aluminum rotor..ESM had something going on with Titanium shafts in teh nose cone I believe

mannysc
04-15-2005, 05:43 PM
I would think the case would still expand..Regardless Im sure less weight is key besides heat soak of the aluminum rotor..ESM had something going on with Titanium shafts in teh nose cone I believe
ahh just water cool it like merc 65 did he droped air temps and blower housing temps yrs ago a nother so calif member with weird ideas that work. :D

seawalkersee
04-29-2005, 07:59 PM
Anyone have results on how the big @$$ hole in the back works so far? I believe with some of them I have seen that the new choke point will now be the inlet to the lower intake. Not to mention if you still have the factory intercooler you are screwed, no pun intended. I think there is a happy medium between the size and the rest of our parts available. Actually, Im just pissed cause you guys have the stuff to do the mods with. I JUST got the 94-5 blower tday. I thought the rear entry was a gonna be bigger.

Chris

MikeKanterakis
04-29-2005, 09:53 PM
Not much bigger? I've only seen it in pictures. They look bigger.?

seawalkersee
04-30-2005, 12:13 AM
Thats kind of my point. I am not really sure what the dangers of this territory are. I have seen the guys list 3/8" of porting as what they do. Is that on both outlet and total on of 3/8" on the inlet? I am confused. This guy has a half an inch. That is HUGE and I want to know what I can do to get the extra pushin outta the huffer.

Chris

tbird88
04-30-2005, 08:14 PM
Thats kind of my point. I am not really sure what the dangers of this territory are. I have seen the guys list 3/8" of porting as what they do. Is that on both outlet and total on of 3/8" on the inlet? I am confused. This guy has a half an inch. That is HUGE and I want to know what I can do to get the extra pushin outta the huffer.

ChrisKeep in mind that the blower j57ltr posted pics of is an early model.

Someone also mentioned that the stock top & intercooler would hamper any performance gains from blower porting. Based on how my late blower turned out I'd hafta disagree with that.

70mm BBK +
ported late inlet plenum & blower +
early pulley +
stock top +
stock intercooler +
modified exhaust

= 18 pounds of boost

All of this is with a 150,000+ mile blower, no teflon left on the rotors.

'bird

92strokedbird
04-30-2005, 09:20 PM
But you must agree that with even a double IC and raised top the car has quicker throttle response and makes a big difference. :)

seawalkersee
04-30-2005, 10:07 PM
Is that a photochop on your avitar 92, or is it something you have done?

Chris

92strokedbird
04-30-2005, 10:29 PM
That is my modified blower,but the pic is old as it does not show the wedge piece that i installed.It is the piece that sits under the rotors on the late style blowers.

tbird88
05-01-2005, 10:14 AM
But you must agree that with even a double IC and raised top the car has quicker throttle response and makes a big difference. :)There was a session at the strip before I ported the blower where the only mods were the 70mm BBK, my super-secret-ghetto-top ;) , and my double IC with trick tanks :p ...went from 15.6 to 14.8 ET :eek: , throttle response was indeed a lil crisper on the street too.

'bird

seawalkersee
05-01-2005, 10:51 AM
What does your super secret ghetto top cost? Since its ghetto can I pay you with monopoly money? That would be sweet and you would sell a ton...just think...You could OWN boardwalk...

Anyone have results yet on one of those custom rear inlet setups? Wynn, How much do you charge to make the custom 94+ to the 93 plenum. I saw one once and I am pretty sure it was you that had it for sale.

Anyway. I want to know what you guys who have the BIG inlet at the rear of the blower are doing. I seriously believe that once you are at that level that the lower intake becomes a HUGE restriction.

Chris

tbird88
05-01-2005, 11:53 AM
What does your super secret ghetto top cost? Since its ghetto can I pay you with monopoly money? That would be sweet and you would sell a ton...just think...You could OWN boardwalk...Nah, I think we tried thinkin' out the idea of a fantasy SC town before. Manny and P_racing's parties gettin' busted all the time, Manny testin' up & down the steets at all hours of the night, Manny...


Anyone have results yet on one of those custom rear inlet setups? Wynn, How much do you charge to make the custom 94+ to the 93 plenum. I saw one once and I am pretty sure it was you that had it for sale.

Anyway. I want to know what you guys who have the BIG inlet at the rear of the blower are doing. I seriously believe that once you are at that level that the lower intake becomes a HUGE restriction.

ChrisThat inlet plenum (still have it) adapted a late blower to the vacuum hookups on an early car.

http://www.datarecall.net/~tbird88/index/parts/alum/late931886.jpg

As far as restriction on the inlet of the late blower I just don't see it, at least on the boost gauge or time slips. On mine, I left 1/8" gasket surface around the blower inlet and concentrated strictly on directing the airstream path around the inner walls (around the rotors) instead of into the center of the rotors like so many seem to insist on doin'. The center of the rotors get enuff "fill" as it is just from the fact that the late blower exposes the center by design.

I know yer probably tired of hearin' it but the time slips don't lie, Lola is gettin' 90% of her new-found power on blower porting alone. C'mon down and take her for a spin, you'll see what a somewhat conservative porting job can do :D .

Can't wait to apply these techniques to an early blower.

'bird

seawalkersee
05-01-2005, 01:38 PM
I thought that was you. I had JUST got into the sccoa site when I saw that for sale. Wanna sell it? I DO have real money if you insist. I think you misunderstood my restriction part of me last post. I ment the actual intake manifold. I would have to look at mine but is not the hole at the rear of the intake smaller then the intake at the rear of the blower? Do you open it up as well?

Chris

tbird88
05-01-2005, 02:19 PM
I thought that was you. I had JUST got into the sccoa site when I saw that for sale. Wanna sell it? I DO have real money if you insist. I think you misunderstood my restriction part of me last post. I ment the actual intake manifold. I would have to look at mine but is not the hole at the rear of the intake smaller then the intake at the rear of the blower? Do you open it up as well?

ChrisDon't wanna go too far with sellin' anything in this thread (coughcough250cough), drop an email through my sig if interested.

I started to comment on the lower intake part of your post but got lost in everything, kinda forgot. According to others, the lower intake opening is somewhat of a restriction. Chris Wise opened his up way back when and got outstanding results. Don't know if the rest of us can hang with Chris but here's a few pics of one for a fella in Canada. A lil bit of sanding and it'll be ready for its trip to da great white nort...eh!

http://www.texasthunderbirds.com/fab/int/int1888.jpg
http://www.texasthunderbirds.com/fab/int/int1878.jpg
http://www.texasthunderbirds.com/fab/int/int1938.jpg
http://www.texasthunderbirds.com/fab/int/int7248.jpg

ninja sawzall say git er done!

'bird

seawalkersee
05-01-2005, 07:06 PM
How come I cant send you a PM. Anyway, how much bigger did you make that thing? I also believe that that is going to be a major choke point in the system. All I need to do is put a guage on both sides and measure the pressure drop. Now if you can just port it and make it work then that takes care of a lot. The problem is I see welding on there. So IMHO I think it needs to be made bigger and aparently welded cause the bolts dont fit no more.

Chris

mannysc
05-01-2005, 09:29 PM
just invert it and forget the super duper parts . center flow 4x4 opening water to air ic need raised hood but who has a stocker now adays? :D :D :D :eek:

seawalkersee
05-01-2005, 10:10 PM
I would but I think I can get more out of it this way. Also I dont know how.

Chris

mannysc
05-01-2005, 10:16 PM
I dont know how to do it but I did . pictures in my webshots link .

wynn could do one easy. he is a wiz with the tig and mig .

suutari
05-17-2005, 05:21 AM
finally I can assemble the unit :). I used nitromors to take out the paint. Surface that allready had been glass bead plasted was easy...but the main case was harder to work with. If the paint surface has been plasted broken I guess the nitromors is a lot more effective. Anyhow now the cases are clean and for now its staying without any top coat(if I get crazy idea about polishing ;)..!).

Today Im assembling the unit and I will put some pics when its done and ready. Still have to do little spacer between the coupler spring and nose shaft. Im staying with this setup(no rattle I hope when the spring has nylon etc. spacer ;)!).

Its sure been a long project and Im not doing it again :))..better not say never tho...

hope it spins ;)...clearances were ok and Im checking them again with the case tightened but the gears still out so if there is something I still can take it apart and not ruining the new rotorbearings..
cheers,sami

PS: exept the blower to be in order this week.

suutari
05-19-2005, 11:48 AM
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin2/new/

some new pics :). almost doen..tomorrow Im assembling the gears and still have to do a spacer from really thin sheet metal to bring the case clearance to normal since the rear end has warped little during the welding. anybody happen to know the rear end case clearance stock? roots blowers normally are set to 0.25mm...but how about eaton m90? Well anyhow the leakage thru there will be minimal after it spuns up since volumetric efficiency increases as the blower sppeds up so Im not going to worry about it+if the clearance is more I can speed it up even more ;)...

So if anyone has blower lying around and would be generous to measure the cap between the rotor ends and the case at the rear end that would be really nice :).

suutari
05-20-2005, 11:34 AM
charger assembled
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/remmisccoa/

thats it :)...have to measure what the porting did to the charger when its on the car etc..Ill post some info on efficiencys and so on when car is on the road and I can measure the intake temps and so on..

thanks for everyone that has helped with this project :)!



PS: Isnt it just the same as long as we all have supercharged car with m90 ;)..dont kick me out cause I drive BMW :). Thanks everyone!
Hope this project gave some info for others too. I wouldnt do it again. better say never tho...and if someone has the measurements I would still be happy to compare.

matt59
05-26-2005, 05:12 PM
Well yeah you could use that. I hope you put duct tape over the needle bearings so you dont get shavings in them.
What did you use as a guide to determine how much metal to remove?
You do understand that the blower works on 120 degree :confused: timing dont you?

Mike, What is 120 degree Timing ?

seawalkersee
05-27-2005, 02:54 AM
If you look at the rotors, they have a "twist to them" this twist opens at a particular rate if you look at the triangle at the top. There are Three paddles on each rotors which spin in a circle. 120* x 3 = 360*. Since there is an angle to the cut they are and must be timed so they dont pulse badly.

I think thats it ;)

Chris