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007_SuperCoupe
08-25-2003, 09:30 AM
OK, I've had this code for a little while now, but am not sure exactly what it means...Of 2 different manuals, one says "Brake on/off circuit failure or accuated during test" and the other says, "Brake on/off circuit open, not on during test" The actual explanation is relatively easy, but my question is this: is this the abs relay switch? And if so, can someone post a pic of it...I know it's on the pass firewall, but you know, I just can't seem to see it in there. Thanks.

stocker 89
08-25-2003, 10:14 AM
My Manuel says the latter brake on/off circuit open faliure. This could be worn pads rotors or bad E-brake. Need more info. The other usually indicates a bad sensor solinoid or connection. Could be the brown sensor . Is there any fluid leaking? The relay should be there It is easy to see. Has the system been modified?

007_SuperCoupe
08-25-2003, 11:43 AM
There is not any fluid leaking at this time although I suspect that my accum. is beginning to loose its ability to hold pressure. I'm fixing that but I also want to get this other code cleared up...There are no 'mods' to the brake system at all (that I know of...). I'm just trying to get it fixed right now. I don't want to be needlessly throwing $$ at it and not fixing the problem. I'm in the process of getting the codes pulled for the ABS system as well to see if there is any correlation between the codes there...(my ABS light is on consistently, but no brake light). I could have wo rn pads, but I don't think that is the cause of this code. And as far as I've been able to tell, my e-brake works fine. It doesn't really move at all when it is on.

stocker 89
08-25-2003, 11:56 AM
When you smashs the brake pedal to stop real fast how do they react? Can you feel the brake pedal kicking back? Is there seprate minamal skid opposite of each wheel. A going back and forth sensation from wheel to wheel.

007_SuperCoupe
08-25-2003, 12:58 PM
They feel like they have always felt...When I got the car, they didn't "feel" the same as my other bird, ('92 LX) but they stopped me. I haven't looked at them too close as of yet, but have the $$ to fix them now (unless I need a whole new system, which I doubt at this point). I don't feel any variance in either wheel, nor does the pedal "kick back." The ABS does not work unless I'm on ice. That is the only time that I have noticed that they work. Any other time the wheels lock up. I don't find this unusual as when there is a problem with the ABS, it shuts down, but power braking is still there. Albeit something like 90% front brakes, but they are there. I notice the pump cycling every now and again for a second or less to get the accum back up to pressure. But I don't think this is what the code is for.

MIKE 38sc
08-25-2003, 01:12 PM
That code means that during the KOER test you either hit the brake pedal or your brake switch at the pedal is either bad or missadjusted.
The comp has no way to know if your brake pads are wearing out or if the emergency brake doesnt work right.

Were you doing the KOER test when you got that code?

007_SuperCoupe
08-25-2003, 01:37 PM
Yes, KOER test. And I know that I didn't hit the brake... Where is the brake switch?

MIKE 38sc
08-25-2003, 01:51 PM
Look where the pedals mount down by the firewall you should see the switch's mounted on the brake pedal assembly.

007_SuperCoupe
08-25-2003, 01:56 PM
Thanks. That'll be a definate fix in the very near future... Now for the rest of the brake system...

stocker 89
08-25-2003, 02:24 PM
This is a good sign. Instead of locking up and going into skid. They CHIRP like this chirp chirp chirp chirp chirp STOP! You can feel the pedal releasing pressure. Good luck.

007_SuperCoupe
08-25-2003, 02:55 PM
I think that you misunderstood me...the wheels do lock up. No ABS. I know what that is like (pedal feel) and I do not have it. I do in the winter time when driving slowly on ICE. That is the time when they are actually functional. Right now I could easily leave skid marks because my wheels lock up. I do have the ABS light on and am in the process of getting codes pulled.

stocker 89
08-25-2003, 03:14 PM
So ABS works but don't react until it is to late. hmmmm. So the ABS this is a tough one you better try those codes. Obviously a sensor is not reacting in time. they go to the floor and you can feel them acuating the abs is working but the pressure is not there in time to react with abs signal. But they will go in to skid on concrete.

BobGPz
08-25-2003, 03:27 PM
OMG!
:D :p :o :eek:

I get code 74 when running my codes if I do NOT push the brakes in on time OR do not give it a WOT. When running codes the computer tests the switches in these and it will have you hit the brakes and a quick full throttle to test sensors. If you don't, it will give you code 74 basically saying it was unable to test that portion. I doubt that code 74 has anyrthing to do with your brake pads. That would be a different issue.

MIKE 38sc
08-25-2003, 03:31 PM
Bob is correct. That code doesnt neccasarily mean theres something wrong. As Bob says if you dont hit the brakes when signaled to during the KOER test you will get that code.

007_SuperCoupe
08-25-2003, 04:14 PM
Bob, Mike,
AT what point do I need to "tap" the brakes during the KOER test? My code reader manual doesn't say anything about that... I'm aware of the WOT during the test, but hadn't heard of the brake thing. Thanks guys. I feel better about that code now.

Stocker 89,
You still mis-understand me. My ABS do NOT work. There is no actuating at all unless I'm on ice. Period. It has nothing to do with the pressure not getting to the brakes. I have something wrong with the ABS system. I'm working on finding out. When there is a problem with the ABS, the control module shuts off the ABS COMPLETELY, but leaves you with power assisted braking. When I get home I'll scan the page out of the shop manual where it states that.

MIKE 38sc
08-25-2003, 04:27 PM
Youre right you do not need to tap the brakes during the test.
Thats what happens when I try to help several people at the same time. Sorry about that.
Check your connection at the brake switch that may be the problem.

stocker 89
08-25-2003, 04:46 PM
Yeah check that Abs computer.

007_SuperCoupe
08-25-2003, 07:13 PM
Thanks for the help guys (albeit more peace of mind that the '74' is nothing to be too worried about). I plan on getting that fixed as soon as I locate the part (from local parts stores...)

BobGPz
08-25-2003, 07:24 PM
With the KOER test, AFTER the codes are read, it will give a single signal to perform WOT, you have like 3 seconds to do it. Also some cars need to hit the brakes, and some cars with power steering need to give a 90 degree turn of the steering wheel to have the puter test steering pressure swith (Speed sensitive Steering systems??).

(According to instructions on my scanner) Days that I have someone help me hit the brakes I do not get 74 or other codes indicating "Operator Error During Test". When by mtyself, I get these everytime.

007_SuperCoupe
08-25-2003, 11:14 PM
I remember reading something liker that in my manual too. But it said to do it if you have a specific type of brake system, I thought. I don't remember for sure, but it was something along those lines. I've got to get my manual and check it out. The code you get if you don't do the WOT thing is that the EEC did not detect the tps test. So I would think that there would be a code that said that the EEC did not detect the brake test. Logically speaking at any rate.

Either way, I'm not too concerned with it. It doesn't have anything to do with my ABS problem, which is what I have to fix. The brake pressure sensor is known to go out on t-birds in general. I'll go out on a limb and say that it is a relatively simple fix for a car of the sc's complexity. And I'm confident that it is not the cause of my ABS failure. That is what I was after when I started this post.

I thank you all for your input to this point. It has given me more direction in what I need to do to fix my brakes.

And BobGPz, not sure if your code reader does this or not (I thought all of them did) but mine will flash the CE light when it reads the codes. For example, the discussed code 74 is the CE flashing 7 times followed by a brief pause (1-2 seconds) and then flash 4 more times. This being the only code, it is followed by about 5 seconds of nothing and it repeats itself. This way you can sit in the comfort of your driver seat while pulling the codes fromthe EEC. Not sure if your's works this way, but I thought I'd share.

BobGPz
08-26-2003, 04:01 PM
Just foolin' with ya. I know I have a CEL but didn't know it flashed WITH the code scanner. Interesting...thanks for info....:cool: