Head/Valve Train Experts

I'm forced to remove my heads finally, the infamous HG failure. I'm looking to also get some head work done as well while they are off, mainly so I don't have to do it again. I'm not wanting to go extreme or anything, but here is what I've got in mind:

3-angle valve job (and the other stuff associated with a racing valve train)
gasket port full length of intake and exhaust runners
blend the bowls
enlarge the exhaust valves

My question comes in with the exhaust valves. Right off the top of my head, I don't know the size of the stock exhaust valves, nor the intake. I'd like to get larger valves on the exhaust side to free up my exhaust making the way for more intake. What size exhaut valves should I go with? And where can I get them from? Any and all information will help. Thanks.

There is no definite answer to your questions - it all depends on a lot of other factors. Such as, how much do you want to spend (most important!), where do you plan to drive it (street only, street/strip, etc), what cam do you have, what type transmission, torque convertor, gears, etc. Knowing all that (and more) an experienced engine builder could design the proper heads. Or you could talk to any of the shops that specialize in SC heads and buy a "proven" head/cam package.

Does anyone know the max valve size on stock seats?

Mostly interested in the exhaust side.

Aaron

Right now there is a lot that is stock, but will be upgraded in the future. What I'm looking for is building my heads now, while they are off instead of doing a little now and then 6 months down the road, pull them again because now I'm going to upgrade my cam and need to port the heads. I'm just looking for what size the exhaust valve is and where I can get larger ones. I've already been speaking with several machine shops who have considerable experience with the sc heads. I just want to know how much the valves are going to be and where I can get them. My ultimate goal is a mid 13 sec SC. It's nothing too extreme. If I were looking for faster, then I'd go for one of the "proven" setups. But for what I want, they are too expensive for what I'm willing to pay when I can get the same performance locally for 1/4 the price.

The machine shop will be able to provide the info I'm looking for, but I'd rather take the valves in there and say, "Use these," instead of waiting a week or 2 while they are on order. Or pay the extra $$ for shipping. Call me stingy, but it's my $$ and there's not a lot of it. I've got to pick and choose carefully what I spend it on.

That said, where can I get larger exhaust valves for the SC heads?

The stock valves are 1.78" Intake and 1.46" Exhaust. I have 1.84" Ferrea 5000 SB Chevy intake valves on stock seats and 1.56" Ferrea 6000 SB Chevy exhausts, although the exhausts needed a larger seat. I'm sure you could fit 1.5" exhausts on stock seats without any problem. The main thing with the seats is to replace them with ones that have a larger inside diameter. I gained 10-12 cfm of flow on the exhausts changing the seats (the 1.56"s were right on the outside of a stock seat). The new seats are like 1/16" or so bigger throat opening.

If you go with aftermarket valves, make sure you check the rocker arm geometry and pushrod length. Most of the aftermarket valves are longer than stock and will require some other changes either with different pushrods, shims, adj. rockers etc. Although, ported stock valve heads are still plenty capable. I made 260 RWHP and 350 RWT with ported stock valve heads, a 94 blower, 70 mm TB and custom 2 1/4" - 3" - dual 2 1/4" exhaust with stock manifolds. It probably would have made a couple more HP with bigger injectors. The stock 30#'s limit you to 260ish RWHP.

Thanks a bunch, blackbird!

That's some of the info I was looking for. I was looking to go with the SB chevy valves too. But I may have to change some other components of the valve train? I was wanting to keep my roller rockers since I already paid the $$ for them. Also in the short term I plan on running the stock cam with a cam upgrade in the very near future. You say that most aftermarket valves are longer than our stock. Is it possible to cut them so that they are the same length as our stock so I can still use the components I've purchased and installed? Also, are the SB chevy valves a different length? What length are the stock valves? I don't know too much about this stuff and want to have my **** together when I go to the machine shop, if you know what I mean.

Thanks again for the info.

I had my intake manifold ported and matched to the heads also, not a bad idea, every bit helps. Also, upgrade to double valvesprings. I had 2 bowed springs when my heads went under the knife, and they had less than 30K on them.

Yeah, I plan on porting the lower intake manifold on both sides as well as the intake plenum. Springs I've thought about and will discuss with the machine shop. I'll have them put some in. I've also got to talk to some cam people so I can just get it all done now. Thanks for the thought though. I'm really trying to decide to do to larger valves or if simply gasket porting the full runner length plus blending the bowls will be enough (with bolt-ons, of course) to get into the 13's. I'm going to go with a cam that has very close to the same duration, but increase the lift for good torque. And I know if I go too large on the exhaust without enlarging the intake, I'll loose some torque as well. I'm wanting to keep the car very streetable but increase the hp and torque proportionally.

I hate to break it to you, but I think that head work is one place that it is WAY worth it to pay the money for something that is tested and proven.

I suggest you look at Apten (Steigemeyer) and Super Six Motorsports for some EXCELLENT head packages. Both of these head packages can put you into the 13's all by themselves. It is money well spent. By the time you are done with a local shop you won't be that far off in price and you'll be way off in performance.

I know you didn't want to hear that, but I can always say "I told you so" later.

{edit}

As for cam selection, a highly efficient head package like the Steigemeyer one will give outstanding performance with moderate lift levels. This is nice for retaining a smooth idle, vaccum, torque and economy. I am running .513" lift and mild duration (210/220) in my 12 second SC. This cam made 313rwhp with some locally ported heads and 343rwhp with Steigemeyer heads (no loss of torque either). Something to think about.

Warning...it's LONG

I will agree with you that the heads are not a place to be skimped on. However, that said, some people cannot fit a proven head package. Most of the money spent on those heads are for the name. I don't think that anyone will disagree with that. I may not get the 'exact' same performance from a reliable local shop, but I believe that I can get improved performace for a lot less money.

Personally I'm on a very limited budget. And I believe that most on this board are also. Being a father of three young children, my financial emphasis is on my family. That limits my budget to around $500-$600. I can get the heads checked, milled if needed, cleaned disassembled, reassembly, 3-angle valve job, gasket porting the full length of the intake and exhaust runners, and bowl blending for just over $400. That is from a local shop that has a great deal of experience with the Ford 3.8 heads, all forms. I'm looking to get a little bit more out of them by enlarging the ports if I can afford that. That is why I"m coming here. Also to help out some of those in the same boat I'm in.

I'm wanting to know from people who have worked on these heads and know a bit about the valve train goemetry and such so that I can be very specific with the machine shop. I'm also wanting to know if it is worth enlarging the exhaust valves or if I should enlarge both intake and exhaust. The cam will come later, but I need to know some of these things now when I'm having the heads built, so I don't have to say, get better springs later at greater expense instead of just getting it done now. And I realize that I will not see the true potential of the heads until I get a better cam. I just don't want to have to re-do them later. And since my HG are failing, I want to get them done now. Unfortunately I don't have the $$ for even the cheapest of those head packages (Supersix Motorsports @ $850) right now. And I have to have this car to drive for now. I can go a week or two without it, but if I have to save $$ to get the proven heads, I could be out of a car for months. And I don't think that it will go over well with my boss for me to be taking a long lunch to get the other car from the wife for too long.

And I don't think that any head alone will get you into the 13's. As a complete system that is matched up with larger MAF, TB, upgraded fuel system, a ported and *minimum* double intercooled supercharger I would be disappointed if I did not make it into the 13's. I'd also merry that up with 3.73's out back and should get there easily.

I guess what I'm looking for are those who have done what I'm looking at doing. Having their heads ported and worked over by a local shop. I'm wanting the successes and failures so that I can ensure that I don't make the same mistakes and maybe build upon the successes of others. I'm also looking for those people who have extensive experience with valve trains in general. Those people can also give me some valuable insites to make sure that I'm not going to get 'duped' by this local machine shop. And maybe this thread will help others who are going to do the same as myself, but lack all the information that I'm trying to get.

XR7 Dave,
I know what you've said is true. And it's not that I don't want to hear it. I strongly agree with what you said. The heads are not a place to cut corners. But unfortunately I can only squeeze to much green stuff out of my wallet. And unfortunately as I'm sure ALL of us in the SC community already know, our cars do not wait for the "right" time to decide to act up. I've already spent more keeping my SC running (with a couple mild upgrades) than I actually purchased it for. And I've only owned it for about a year and a half.

Sorry it was so long.

Long Term: A dependable mid to high 12 Second SC capable of winning car shows

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I got this from your member page. While you have currently stated that mid 13's are your goal, nonetheless we can see that you are interested in relatively serious performance.

I also see that you have a 95 blower, CAI of some sort, and a free flowing exhaust. I do believe that the right head/cam package alone can get you into the mid 13's.

Example #1: I personally know a guy who has almost the exact same stuff that you have, on his car + a Steigemeyer head and cam package. His car makes right at 300rwhp and runs pretty effortless high 13's. With some better tires, mid 13's would be cake. His motor has not been rebuilt and as far as I know the blower is stock also.

Example #2: Not too far from you is another person who has the COMPLETE Magnum Powers package, cam, everything that goes with it and some pretty decent "local performance shop" heads on it. It runs about the same as the above example.

Example #3: Another member a little further from you has the exact same modifications as example #2 only it has the Steigemeyer kit on it. It runs high 12's.

I can go on.

You most certainly can run mid 13's with generic cylinder heads, but it will cost you more in the long run because you will need more bolt on parts. And then if you really want to run 12's you will more than likely have to get the heads redone.

I would have taken the same path as you are contemplating a couple of years ago. -- oh wait, I did. I won't do it again. I didn't believe that the "big boys" really had anything over a local shop. I didn't think that they really put much R&D into the head packages they sell. I was wrong. I never believed for one minute the difference the new heads were going to make on my car until I tried it. Unless your local guy can guarantee you flow numbers that compare with what these companies advertise, I would not go that way.

Nonetheless, no one can stop you from doing what you want to do. We will also support your endeavers with whatever help we can give. I just hate to see anyone throw money away regardless of income status. That being said, you have already received the best "do it yourself advice" out there. Steve (BlackbirdSC) is pretty much the most knowledgeable engine guy we have.

Something else to think about. I believe all the 12sec cars out there have either a) Coy Miller heads b) Morana heads c) Steigemeyer heads or d) Supersix Motorsports heads. There is something to be said about that.



David

Most of the money spent on those heads are for the name. I don't think that anyone will disagree with that.

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Sam,

I'm going to dissagree....most of the money is for parts and labor. When you get into oversized valves, with longer stems and bigger springs for running higher lift or steeper ramped cams. You also need larger seats, new guides and new seals. A large part of the expense for the Stegimeier heads comes from welding up the exhaust ports and reshaping both the long and short radius for improved flow. Little things make a big diffirence.

I've had my heads reworked 3 times in the last two years and probably have over $4000 invested in the various reworks and redos of the heads and cam. Dave is right...save yourself a boatload of greif and money by purchasing a proven package. As they are today, my heads and cam are very close to what Stegimeir is selling now, in fact I had him weld my exhaust ports and currently I'm also using his springs, retainers and cups.

The cam and heads are a matched set, unless you keep it mild, you can't really intall one without the other. The higher lifting cam needs longer valves to fit the longer springs, more lift requires more distance between the stem tip to the spring retainer to clear the rockers. You will also have a hard time finding valve springs that will work with stock or similar spring cups. Once you get that all sorted out you will need to determine what length pushrods to use.

If money is tight, your probably better off letting the machine shop do the basic valve job and some port matching, then do a head and cam swap later when you have the parts all waiting and ready to install.

David

I'll try to get both here...

XR7 Dave,
I'll have to update my goals so to speak. I'm still planning on having a dependable and very streetable bird that will run 12 or faster. That though will be a V8, and then one day a SWB to boot. I'll have both the performance and looks with that car. That's not to say that I'm giong to forget about the SC. On the contrary, I plan on modding it too. However, I don't want to go too extreme with the V6.
Example 1: Steig heads cost over $2000, I have no more than $600 to spend. Not a viable option at this time. But I have to remove the heads, so I want SOMETHING done.

Example 2: If you and I are thinking of the same person not too far from me, his problem is in the heads. His exhaust valves are over 1.9! Thus his torque and hp are virtually the same (around 20 ft lbs more than his hp...and his torque is not far from stock). If he had smaller exhaust valves (like 1.6), I'm sure that his torque would be much higher and thus, ET's lower.

Example 3: refer to my response to example 1.

I'm not arguing that the local shop will be as good as a proven setup. I just think that I can get good performance out of them too. And just to set the record straight, I don't have a custom CAI or the free flowing exhaust...would be done when the heads are done. And my goal is somewhere in the 13's. Preferably around 13.5, not the 12's. If I were to go for the 12's there is no doubt in my mind that I would DEFINATELY go with one of the "proven" setups. But my goal is not 12 seconds with this car. I'm going to put the $$ into the V8. I'm simply interested in the combinations that have (and have not) worked for others, so I can have something similar.

David Neibert,
Regardless of the "name" on the heads, there was (NO arguement here) a great deal of R&D into the heads. They had an invested interest to improve these heads. Yes there is labor involved in building the heads, but all the big names have developed combinations that work. They can charge large amounts of $$ because the have the REPUTATION to back them up. People will pay the $$ for their heads because they KNOW that they will be quality because of the REPUTATION. Therefore they can charge that amount of money. If there was a local shop here that could make the same #'s and produce the same results for 1/2 the price, that reputation would start to get out there. They'd raise their prices because their product was in demand. Simply put, supply and demand. I know this stuff, I work in it.

You may have had your heads worked over 3 times in the last 2 years and I'll agree, that sucks. But you had and still have a very specific and lofty goal for your SC. My SC would tear in half with the power you are making. At least the rusted parts would flex enough to do some damage. I don't have those goals in mind for my SC (right now).

My plan right now stands at: gasket porting the full length of the runners, (nothing too exteme), bowl blending and a 3-angle race valve job. I'm simply interested in knowing if I should try for larger valves or not. The cost is $10 per valve to grind them out for a larger size plus the cost of the valves and seats. I think that is a reasonable price, so I'm asking if it'll be worth it if. And if anyone's opinion that I could feasably hit the 13's with the appropriate bolt-ons. I plan on upgrading all of the induction and fuel systems, as time and $$ permits. So is it worth persuing larger valves or will I be okay with the stock valves to get into the 13's? If I decide to go for the 12's later, that is when I will just go for one of the proven packages. I just don't have those goals for the V6. The V8, now that's another story altogether...

Thanks for the input guys. I really do appreciate the comments. All information that I get helps me in my decision on what to do. My biggest problem is this is my daily driver for now. So I can't wait around for the $$ to get to me. That won't start coming in until late January. I cannot wait that long. I've got to get this stuff done in the very near future.

Yes larger valves are worth the cost.The biggest valve change that will be noted,
will be on the exhaust side.This is in thinking along the lines that with the port job
you are talking of.

If you would buy heads and cam combination from Stiegemeier.He is not over charging.
If you have ever ported heads,and put the quality parts that this guy uses,you would
feel like he let you in like a burglar.I ported my first heads in 1968.And I can assure
that Stiegemeier heads & cam combination are cheap.

And if you are going to a shop to get a valve seat cut,I would try to get it done on a Serdi
valve machine, you can get a 5 angle up to a 7 angel cut.This machine will cut into the bowl
area making the bowl concentric to the valve center,for a superior flow.This type valve
cut can yield as much flow as bigger valves.

This may cost you a little more but well worth it.The machine alone cost up to $ 70,000.00.
This is the machine Stiegemeier uses.Then he has custom cutters made for his SC head use.

This is what I would do on a budget.
1.Serdi valve job 5 angle
2. blend bowl to match serdi cut.
3. gasket match every peice on top of the motor.Intake manifold,both plenums,exhaust,
IC tubes,And do it your self.To save money.
4. If you have the money,do the exhaust valve.
5. if you got any money left do bigger intake valves.

RANDY

Thanks Randy. I'm not sure that I'll be able to get the "serdi" valve job. There may not be any local machine shops that have that machine. I can't say for sure now, but will be sure to ask. I do plan on porting everything above the heads myself. I'm very grateful for your response and the "priority" list as of what to do with my $$.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have extensive experience working on valve trains, right? If you're who I was thinking (but couldn't remember for sure) then I was hoping you'd add a couple cents to the post. Thanks for that.

And for the record, if I had the $$ to go for any head package out there, I'd go with Stieg's heads. I've seen enough through posts on this board, #'s and personal testimonials that I'm convinced they are the BEST heads available for our cars. But that is just my opinion too. Hopefully this post will also help others.

When you get a serdi cut ,the cutter goes into the bowl about 1/2 inch
it does a little over 1/3 of the bowl area..

The part of the bowl that the cutter does not cut is the part of the bowl
that needs weld build up.To make the bowl round.Its one of the best
tools made for head porters.

I beleive in this type cut so much. that I would drive or ship the heads to
have this type valve job done.

Stiegemeier PHONE 1-636-949-2275 If your can't get the type cut done
in your area.give him a call,and find out if he can turn them around fast enough
for you.And see about the cost.Phone won't cost you to much.Ask him what
he can do for you.

RANDY

When you gasket match.On the exhaust side,at the exhaust header.
The gasket has a v shape at the bottom of the port.Do not scribe a
v like the gasket .Make a straight line and port the bottom of the opening
of the port straight across.This will help reduce revertion.From the headers.

Randy

My avitar had speed secrets if that is who you thought i was.Instead of the bus.

Thanks for the # and the info on the gasket/porting. I don't remember avatars. I'm simply recalling the context of a thread that I had watched in which Dave Neibert was having trouble with his valves at high rpm. I think that it was you who suggested stronger springs. It was that post that I was recalling. It's been a couple or three months ago, and I wasn't part of the thead, just an observer.

I'll give Steigemeier a call to see what he can do for me. It may turn out that I get just as good a price from him with similar turn-around. I don't think I'm asking for anything too extreme, so it should cost a fortune...(hopefully)

Thanks again.