Con't from Dream SC thread: Big 3 vs. "Imports"

JAFO

Registered User
(Not picking on anyone, just thought this was a good discussion in the middle of hi-jacking the other thread.)

From: http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35561





kws6000 said:
If you are considering reliability you would be much better off with the infinity vs any american or most european cars.I agree with the comments about the ls1(I have a c5 vette).Personally,if I were looking for another vehicle,I would never buy another american made vehicle due to the very poor reliability inherent in any american car vs a typical japanese car.Before the flames start I hate ricers and all they stand for but im tired of unreliable american junk and would like to have one reliable car that only needs routine maintenance.
 
Deep6 said:
Dude,

You need to wake up and take a look at the current car market of 2003. That attitude is about 23 years old and the myth that "anything built on the shores of America is Junk" has to die already.

For the American Car industry, things HAD to get worse before they'd get better. We needed someone else to teach us a lesson as we became too comfortable in manufacturing methods.

That's changed now and Americans are just about committed to team work and quality control as the import car manufacturers are.

In fact the President of Toyota was interviewed a couple of years ago by Sam Mitani of R+T magazine. During the interview Sam brought up the fact that Toyota was platform sharing the Toyota Matrix with the Pontiac Vibe. Sam wanted to know how the venerable Japanese car manufacturer felt about a venture project with an American company.

The President's response was something similar to this "15 years ago, we (the japanese car market) would have never thought it possible to be able to successfully market vehicles with an American manufacturer. The Quality and design parameters were behind the japanese standards. However, much has changed over the years and Americans have started building very competitive automobiles. I admit that it has become tougher to sway the North American market into purchasing Japanese vehicles. As evidence of this, just a few weeks ago I was driving a new pontiac grand prix in the states and I felt it to be very close to the toyota camry in ride feel and control. As you know Sam, the Toyota camry is the best selling midsize sedan in the north american market"....


This was from the president of toyota at the time, who was born and raised on japanese vehicles and he had something nice to say about pontiac.

Take a good look around, I remember when my parents owned a 1980 Ford Fairmont. The car was always in the shop for one thing or another. It seemed like every month the car needed some new big ticket item and it never ran well and would always stall out.

I look at my 1995 Ford Thunderbird SC and I've owned it 4 years and it has never failed to get me from point A to point B. I'd say there is a significant improvement there.
 
1BADSC said:
Um deep6 have you driven any of America's small cars, the cavilier, sunfire, metro, escort, zx2, grand am, and many others. They are junk, they have horrible fit and finish, they have a lot of things that go wrong and an engine that is about as smooth as an off balance washing machine.
 
kws6000 said:
Deep 6,Im not saying anything made on the shores of america is junk because the quality of japanese cars produced in north america is pretty good.But I am saying that the average american car is junk compared to the average japanese car with respect to quality and long term durability.Just look at consumers report owners surveys or jd powers long term surveys.If you think otherwise than you are sadly mistaken.As much as I like driving my sc and c5 they are both pos compared to our family acura tl(which I bought in 99 because I wanted to have one reliable vehicle out of the bunch)I have a 96 windstar which I use in the winter which is in the shop again(53000miles).I will never buy another american car again for a daily driver because of the poor long term reliability.The acura was a real eye opener.In almost 5 years the only warranty work was some minor trim work.There have been no breakdowns or other mechanical work needed.Before getting the acura,the research I did with acura owners indicated that the problems associated with a lemon acura would be comparible to a good american car.If acura or toyota made cars comparible to my c5 or sc I would never buy another american car again.I used to feel like you guys about american muscle cars but until the quality dramatically improves count me out.BTW,thats why american car companies have to drop their pants with rebates in order to sell their product.
 
JAFO said:
The kicker is how it's not the car building, it's the engieering. More and more "foreign" cars are built in the US, and the quality is thre, but more "American" cars are built outside our borders. The fit and finish is not on par with European and Eastern engineered cars. I'm sure our engineers are capable, but I don't think that the Big 3 think there's enough profit in being consistently well engineered **throughout a product line**. Makes the high end cars look better.
As for foreign cars, Nissan opened a new plant 20 mi from here and is already planning to expand. Sure, a lot of the final car sales money is sent overseas--after filtering through US operation, but the foreign makers are employing more and more Americans whereas the big 3 are shutting down. It's more patriotic to buy stereotypically foreign cars, since they employ more of us and that contributes a lot to our economy.
The days of the American cars vs. foreign cars war is over. People just don't want that to sink in.
 
1QuikV6 said:
Im jus gonna put my 2 cents into this. The American manufacturers have had a rude awakening by the Euro's and Japs having such good quality auto's.
My dads 94 F150 has 180k miles and has already had 2 trannys and numerous other stuff. On the other hand a neighbor has an 85 Toyota 4x4 pickup that has 360k miles on the original engine and tranny, but a different clutch. Talk about the reliability of a Yota...
 
Mike Puckett said:
Having had several foreign(VW, Audi, Mercedes, Nissan) and American cars(Ford, Olds, Pontiac, Chrysler, Mercury) my personal experience has been that there isn't a whole lot of difference between any of them. They all breakdown, rattle, creak, groan, or give excellent service depending on the circumstances. My worst was the Mercedes and the best was one of the Fords and the Chrysler. My dream car would be either a Jaguar XKR coupe in metallic BRG or a Ferrari Modena 360 coupe in a deep red like the ones that run in the ALMS series.
 
Deep6 said:
Sorry, but who's pockets does it really line every time someone purchases a foreign company car? The bottom line is that overseas companys profit from our labor and the money goes offshore (ultimatly) even if they do hire a bunch of Americans (which by the way is much cheaper than to manufacture the cars in Japan)

Oh, and I can tell you horror stories about Japanese cars too. Like the fact that my sister's Honda Del Sol (same thing as a Civic) had 2 mufflers fall off, both rear quarter panels rust, roof seals leak and blew a headgasket at 80k miles. So much for Japanese quality there. I guess that is why they don't sell the del sol anymore.

Oh, my sister still wasn't convinced that "honda isn't all that" and promply went out and bought a prelude. Guess what? the muffler fell off that one too. I guess that is why they discontinued the Prelude.

Point is, Japanese anf German cars have issues too. What really is the bottom line is how folks are treated when a problem arises. Folks at BMW anf Mercedes Dealerships have had major engine work performed to their cars without their complete knowledge while the dealership has had them participate in a "complementary" mud bath. This gave the service technicians enought time to change out the faulty headgasket about to blow on their car.

When I worked at a Mazda Dealership, one customer brought a protoge' back several times for "excessive oil consumption". The owner felt that since the car used 1 quart of oil per 3000miles that this was unreasonable. On the third visist to the dealership, they replaced the engine without really telling the customer. They told him that there was a faulty PCV valve and the customer bought the lie and drove off. Apparently still loyal to the Mazda brand plate.

Go to any American car dealership and it seems that they purposely LOOK for parts to fix and charge you for. So no wonder why people have the perception that American cars are garbage.

But you know, American cars are cheaper than Japanese cars due to the fact that they are built here in the states and they are supposed to be cheaper to build that way.

I'll fully admit that after the mid 70's gas cirisis, the Big 3 were bankrupt. They simply couldn't build a competitive car. But alot has changed since then. American car companies are more commited to on site inspections, Team based production, continued training, kaizen and "just in time" warehousing than they were 15 years ago. To still think that American cars are vastly inferior to Japanese and German cars is really showing your Generation Y roots.

And don't think that Aerican's have been treated all that kindly by the foregners. IN Germany, America is NOT allowed to market their cars there. Instead, GM and Ford had to establish european car companies in order to sell cars there. Hence the birth of Opel and F.O.E. The cars built in those countries HAVE to meet higher standards to be even marketed there. It's one of the reasons why American car companies are using platform sharing with their European branches to build a more competitive product here.

How many Japanese folks drive American cars? Not many. Unless they are enthusiasts or collectors, the mainstream Japanese person is commited to purchasing what it produced in their country. They have pride and passion for what is built in their county. Too bad here in America we don't feel the same way

In my last issue of C/D they tested the, Vw toureg, Porsche Cayenne, Cadillac SRX and Infiniti FX 45. Guess what? C/D picked the Caddy as their number one choice? For years I've read auto magazines that pick apart American made cars and completly gloss over any faults with the foreign cars. And usually if there is a comparison test involving a Porsche, we all know which one the author is going to pick as the "all around winner". Well guess what? American made products are starting to make serious and lasting impressions with the automotive press. Granted Caddy is a luxury line, but I can't help to think that "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" and more of the quality detail and attention to engineering design will start to trickle down to the lesser makes of cars.

Like I said before, Wake up! American products are going to survive and they are building much higher quality products again. The gap in quality between the imports and Domestics has shrunk significantly and in some cases is a non-issue.
 
Generation Y?
No.
And lets not go pointing fingers about head gasket troubles. Especially if the others are swapping entire engines and dealerships here act like they're personally paying for the repairs instead of cashing in on warranty work. Ever hear of how Jeep dealerships are about warranty work? Horror stories.

But you know, American cars are cheaper than Japanese cars due to the fact that they are built here in the states and they are supposed to be cheaper to build that way.

The quality is MUCH improved, that is a fact. However, my Isuzu was built in Indiana. Nissan just this year opened a plant 20 mi from here. That new full sized truck? Coming from here. I believe Mercedes has an operation in Birmingham. From what I've seen, there isn't really a price difference like there used to be between American and foreign cars. Japanese brands do so well there because they don't want the other cars as much. Price, quality and manufacturers who are in touch with what the public there demands. The Big 3 still haven't answered the Accord and Camry, the best selling cars in history. They see the SUV and pretty-boy truck fad and cash in on that. Still doesn't amount to the bargain you get from those two cars. When I worked for Delphi-Packard Electric (formerly an almost exclusive GM supplier) about 10 year ago, most of the wiring systems were on their way to Mexico, even then. (Some orders went to Toyota). The Big 3 are pulling out of America, but traditionalists still say that's where the loyalty should be. WHY? The Big 3 aren't loyal to you, America or anyone else. Hell, they SHOULD be more concerned with their bottom line, but not at the expense of alienating the buying population they have left. The foreign car makers are coming here in order to lower costs, taxes and to suck up to Americans to sell more cars. Who gives a crap if 2% of the car sales price ends up overseas, if they are employing Americans to do the work? GM's shutting down plants, going to Mexico, putting people out of work, but if the same 2% goes to an American company, does it really do nearly as much good as employing our citizens? Nope.
Besides, if you buy Ford, you're also helping Mazda. If you buy GM, you're probably also helping Toyota. Everyone knows about Chrysler & Mitsubishi. If GM can work with Toyota on the Vibe/Matrix, maybe they know that association will help their survival. GM also has controlling interest in Isuzu.
The world is becoming a GLOBAL marketplace. Burying your head in the sand from the rest of the world will get you left behind, just like Japan was until they opened their borders to the world decades ago. That's what the Big 3 have learned in the last 15 years.
The Big 3 may not be popular in Japan, but they do well in other parts of the world. You can't take it all over at once when you're playing catch up.
In MY most recent Car & Driver, Yates is talking about reports that the Big 3 may very well be bankrupt in the coming years. That's a broad assumption, IMO, but they have all been losing money, except for GM. GM only due to financing. That's where all the 0% financing and large rebates will hurt in the next couple of years. They just put off their problems. He goes on to point out the the best engineers in the US go into defense/military, not the auto industry. In Germany/Japan, they only have the auto industry.

That said, I have usually preferred to buy American. These days, I think you just have to do the research and buy what suits your purpose and pocketbook. Seems to be more "imports" fitting the bill than "American" cars.

Holy crap that was long.
 
Airplanes are next.

This is a little off subject but not much. Word in the aviation industry is that Toyota is currently developing a new airplane. This would be the first japanese venture into the general aviation industry. General aviation has been the one mainstay as far as American built and owned transportation goes. Cessna, Beech, Piper, Mooney; all these companies have a major opponent on their hands. Why? Now that has opened the door for Toyota to come in and offer a superior product. It is the same thing that let them into our automobile market. Now WE are playing catch-up and trying to reclaim our throne. Now when people shop for cars they hope to get the reliability of a Honda out of their Fords and Chevys(harder to do with a Chevy....he he he). The day I have to work on a Toyota airplane will be a sad day indeed. But, it will happen.
 
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Damn, we CAN build the cars right!!

Take a look at a "green field" project like Saturn. Originally Conceived in 1984 when GM knew that they COULD NOT compete in the small car market that was DOMINATED by the Japanese competition at the time. By 1991, the Company had released their first car. They took the Japanese production model of team based work, skilled labor training and perfection of work place duties along with redundant inspections to produce a car that , Looked like a Japanese car, Felt like a Japanese car, Held up like a Japanese car and performed like a Japanese car. Yet for all of the platform sharing going on at Mainstream GM, Saturns were 97% Domestic Parts content. ( I know alot has changed since the early 90's and now of course Saturns contain more Opel parts but that is because GM pulled the plug on Oldsmobile and is taking over control more and more with Saturn to fill the void).

Saturn, was Designed, Engineered, Manufactured and Sold By Americans For Americans. It was so succesful, that it was the FIRST American car company that was "allowed" to sell cars in Japan. That says something, especially to those who firmly believe that Foreign products will always be superior. Get your head out of the sand for a minute and recognize that WE ARE competitive again.

If you are shopping for a new car and will specifically rule out American Cars based on 23 year old reputations, then you are effectivly cutting out half of your choices.

I supposed on a philisophical level one could always argue that a company has no loyalty to the people that they sell products to. And the bottom line is that if a product can be produced cheaper by re-locating geographically, then as good capitalists, they are going to follow the "good ole American" way of doing business. Don't tihnk for a minute that Japanese or German manufacturers are any kinder to their employees. After all as mentioned in the C/D article that I have too, GM may be throwing money away on 2.5 retirees per new employee hired but at least something was in place at one point to take care of folks. I guess you could either praise or chastise the UAW for that.
 
Anyone who thinks that American cars cannot compete with Japanese cars is as mistaken as the people who thought Japanese cars couldn't compete back in the '70's. Learn from the past, the Big 3 have. I remember reading that someone was stating that their old mini van wasn't as good as ther Acura, indicating that Japapnese quality was better. There are several reasons why this thinking is flawed. First this is a comparison of quality from SEVERAL YEARS AGO. Domestic quality has greatly improved in just the last couple years. The lessons learned by the big three in the '80s and '90s are just now hitting the market. Second, I am not so sure that comparing a minivan with a luxury vehicle is quite apples to apples........I mean Toyota/Lexus is real crap since My sister in laws Tercel started burning a quart of oil every thousand miles at 75k while my Lincoln ran good at 170k miles right? Come on. There isn't much of a quality difference between countries anymore.

Another thing to consider is how much of the Automobile industry is being outsourced to suppliers, and guess what....The auto companies from around the world are using the same suppliers. American cars are built with parts from Japan and Europe, European cars have parts from Japan and America, Japanese cars - same story. Granted this is not ALL content of the vehicle, but that is the growing trend. 50 years ago the Auto companies built or controlled the companies who built every component of their cars. Now it is pretty much just the engines and bodies that are built by the "Auto companies." Some companies are even buying engines.

There are many more companies such as Delphi-Packard that have spun off from their parent companies. Visteon from Ford, Denso from Toyota, etc. I have worked with a lot of these companies. The suppliers From Japan or Germany are no better (in most cases worse) than the Domestic suppliers.
 
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My experience with my "new" in '90 SC.

I bought it new in March, 1990 and until I started "playing" with it @ 96K, the only thing other than normal maintenance that went bad was the waterpump. And considering how I treated it in 100*+ temps in the mountain twisties, that's not surprising for a blown engine in a 4,000lb vehicle.

It still had no rattles or squeeks, didn't use oil and got 28mpg on the highway. I've got all the options, so it's extremely comfortable and has plenty of luxiories while it's a very good all-around performer.

That's why, even though I've gone though some really rough roads over the last few years, I really love my SC.

Lee
 
Lets not forget that for the most part AMERICAN car companys own high percentages of the overseas automobile industry. And about quality..Give me any car and I will break it...As for buying American....I really need to look no further then Ford....My progression....SC-Jaguar xk8-Astin Martin Vantage...Yes Ford babay
 
Oh yea, Vantage sounds REEEEEEEEEEEEEAL good to me. I wonder what people would do if they had a choice between a Vantage and a GT?? That ought to be interesting.
 
DARKSIDE, The reason we don't have many aircrafts being built is because
all the manufactures have been sued out of buisness, by gready fribulis lawsuits.
Not because we can't build good aircrafts.

And the same lame gready lawsuit have happin to USA car manufactures.
We have trade agreements that protect these little no good #%***@^!
@^**$%!## japs car makers from some suits.

RANDY
 
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You may be right about that part of it, I try to stay away from that end of aviation. I based what I said on the quality of airplanes that we see and work on every day. We have aluminum cracking, interior pieces falling off, ACU's going bad etc. Both these planes have less than 500 hours on them. The frivilous lawsuits are the reason they cost $250,000.00, for a 4 seat airplane! Planes are still built the same way they were built 80 years ago. Cables, pullies, aluminum, rivets, and for the most part vacuum powered analog instruments. I can't explain why the quality has gone down, but it has. One of the newer manufacturers, Cirrus, sends us service bulletins every week it seems like. We messed up here, fix this, we messed up there, fix that. I guess it keeps me employed though, huh. It just seems to me that if a person or group pays that much for anything it should be problem free for many years, although I do understand that stuff happens.

Anyway.........."Aston Martin is that by which all other cars are judged. Aston Martin > all."

You're kidding right? I guess it depends on what you're judging. Performance wise, no. Appearance, this is my opinion but, no. Handling, no. Technology, no. Affordability, no. Reliability, I don't know. James Bond cars, yes, unless you count Halle Berry's T-Bird, then no. Cars with lotsa guns, yes. Invisible cars, yes. When talking about cars how often do you hear the words "I would like to get an Aston Martin, put some headers on it, maybe a dual exhaust, some nitrous......" , not very often. Why, because they haven't made anything that can stick in an everyday person's head, and these are the people that judge cars. You may hear someone say their car rides like a Mecedes, or it is reliable like a Honda, or it is faster than a Viper, because these cars have made their marks in the automobile world. Don't get me wrong, they are awesome cars and I would take one in a minute, but I would never compare my SC to one because it wouldn't matter to me if an Aston Martian was better, but you put an Aston Martin up against a GT40 at LeMans, or a 03 Cobra at the strip and we both know what the verdict would be. Not trying to talk trash bro, just shouting my opinion. Man, I need to stop with these long *** replies. :D I compare my SC to the Milenium Falcon, "She's the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy!"
 
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No problem, just personal taste. ;)

James Bond cars, yes, unless you count Halle Berry's T-Bird, then no.

You've got to be kidding, right?
Anyway,
The Aston is far from being the fastest car in the world, but the ones that are don't have the luxury and refinement that it does. It is simply a beautiful car, inside and out. Gorgeous, rare, excellent performer. Like we say about our SC's, it's not the best in any one category, but it does very well in all. To me, it is the SC of the supercar world. I love the new GT, but there's a lot more out there than Vipers and Vettes. Not all have refinement, luxury and performance all wrapped into one. I personally wouldn't want a strictly race car, I'd rather have it all--even if it isn't as fast as an F1 and as luxo as a Rolls.
You don't hear much about a LOT of cars that other parts of the world are familiar with, since they haven't been sold here. The new Astons are, or will be, sold here. One model coming out is ALL ours, but the old ones that are staples of the super car world haven't even been here. Some of the most interesting cars in the world aren't sold here due to the US's strict regulations.
Take the Holden, now GTO, MG XPOWER SV (a new car), TVR's, or the Lotus Elise--which has been out for years, but will just this coming year be sold here. Many others. Pick up an issue of Top Gear or other mags, other than usual suspects, at Borders and you'll see a wealth of cars that we're missing out on. The rest of the world has interesting cars, some reasonable in price, some not, but most people here don't ever know they exist. Doesn't mean they aren't great cars. Here are a few, for your viewing pleasure:

A favorite Aston of mine:
fdc35c57.jpg


fdc35c5a.jpg


fa9e8e31.jpg


fa9e8e4d.jpg


fa9e90f1.jpg


fa9e90e1.jpg


This Opel shares a lot with the Lotus Elise, IIRC

fa9e90d7.jpg


fa9e903e.jpg


fa9e901a.jpg
 
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Alllllllllllllll right, you convinced me, I'll take two. Nice pics. You are right though, there are a lot of cars that go unappreciated(like SC's). As for Halle Berry's T-Bird, I was including her with the car, like I included the guns and invisibility with the Aston Martin.
 
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