Fiberglass / Carbon Fibre Hoods

[plev72]

Hey all... check out this site:

www.hairyglass.com

they make a carbon fibre race hood for our cars for $400 ... only catch is that it is 6 inches longer than stock and then needs to be cut back... Here is the info I received from them...

Subject: Re: '94 Thunderbird SC
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:40:16 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Paul, If you go to our web page at www.hairyglass.com, there is a picture of this hood. The fiberglass hood cost $210, it is 6" longer than stock. If you need it stock length let us know when you order it, and we will move the braces under the hood so you can cut it off where you need to. It weighs approximately 10 -12 pounds. The carbon fiber hood is $400 and weighs approximately 6-8 pounds. Thanks for the e-mail.

Can anyone give me some guidance on this?

Thanks,
Paul

[Killer SC]

cool site, I wonder why it's 6 inches longer?

[dirtybird91]

Did you guys take note of the entire front piece for the '94-'96!!!:eek:

Dirtybird91

[BikerSC]

Looks like he makes custom drag race bodies. That looks cool. I wonder how the fit is.

If someone tries this let us know how it goes. I might be tempted to try it myself.

-Steve.

[aitkenstyle]

I don't think I would put one of those carbonfiber hoods on my car becasue the fact that all the little ricey kids do it. I'd go with the fiberglass and plus 4 or so pounds isnt that much :rolleyes:

[Tazer999]

So you would rather have style over functionality? Rofl, you just contradicted yourself on the ricer comment dude

[JJanney]

I really want one of those. The question is, would he cut it back 6" for me. :) That would definitely be some killer weight savings. Someone buy it and tell me if you like it...!

Wow, the guy is in Jacksonville. I could take a ride up there to check out the quality and fit... I think I'll email him.

[Doug Franklin]

I have sent them a few emails today. Got 2 answers from Sandra West who seems to know nothing more than web site and what plev72 received. One email was with corrections best I could of the years their part numbers cover. My reason is because I like the 96-97 hood. Of course she thought the 94-96 hood covered it. So I have asked again if there are plans for the 96-97 hood.

KillerSC, I got this answer:
"Doug, Not sure just what you are asking. Our part#688 and 689 fit the 94-96 and maybe the 97 Thunderbird. If you go to our web page at www.hairyglass.com and look at the picture maybe that will help. These parts can be done in composite. The 6" longer is because these were made for Pro Stock class and they where allowed to be 6" longer than stock. Hope I have answered your questions. Thanks, Sandra"

[MIKE 38sc]

I think those are lift off hoods. I'm gonna give them a call about that Pro stock thingy, if I can get the whole front end to match that 6" stretch that would look good with a tubbed out rear end and slamed to the ground.

[Randy N Connie]

The doors are ok,plan to get them installed before spring.With lexan windows.
Would like to buy the trunk lid,havent came up with the money yet.

Randy

[Doug Franklin]

Mike if you do call can you find out where the 6" is put in? In front of tire or behind?

[plev72]

I think the extra 6 inches is at the back of the hood...
--------
Paul, The carbon fiber hood is also longer, if you want it to be stock length, you need to tell us when you place the order. We will not cut it off for you, but we will move the bracing under the hood up closer to the front and you will have to cut it off. Thanks, Sandra

[JJanney]

I already e-mailed them about the years. I informed Sandra of the body styles too. They are not too far away from me (2.5 hours), but I am not interested in a lift off hood.

[v8killr]

Is that a fiberglass tilt front end?If so has anyone installed one?

[Doug Franklin]

Still want an answer on a 96-97 hood but looks like the years will be cleared up. Here is the response I got today:


P/N $$
613 675- 83-86 T-BIRD FRONT END - EXT.2 EACH

614 210- 83-88 T-BIRD HOOD - EXT. 2 EACH

615 160- 83-86 T-BIRD DECK LID EACH

616 215- 83-86 T-BIRD REAR BUMPER PANEL EACH

617 530- 83-86 T-BIRD DOORS PAIR

645 675- 87-88 T-BIRD FRONT END - EXT. 2 EACH

646 160- 87-88 T-BIRD DECK LID EACH

647 225- 87-88 T-BIRD REAR BUMPER PANEL EACH

648 550- 87-88 T-BIRD DOORS PAIR

676 675- 89-93 SC T-BIRD FRONT END - EXT. 6 EACH

677 210- 89-93 SC T-BIRD HOOD - EXT. EACH

678 160- 89-95 SC T-BIRD DECK LID (DOESN'T FIT 96) EACH

679 230- 89-95 SC T-BIRD REAR PANEL EACH

680 550- 89-95 SC T-BIRD DOORS PAIR

681 160- 89-95 SC T-BIRD GROUND EFFECTS PAIR

688 675- 94-95 T-BIRD FRONT END - EXT. 6 EACH

689 210- 94-95 T-BIRD HOOD - EXT. EACH

I will be making the changes on the website right now. Thank you for your help.

Tom West

[aitkenstyle]

Originally posted by Tazer999
So you would rather have style over functionality? Rofl, you just contradicted yourself on the ricer comment dude

What are you talking about I said that a cf hood would be riceyish. Why would you want a discolored hood on your car? also the 4 less pounds that the cf hood isnt that much kind of pointless.

[plev72]

I was of the belief that CF painted just like everything else?

[Randy N Connie]

Yes you can paint carbonfiber just like fiberglass.Neither the carbon or glass fibers
would be painted,but you would be painting the resins that should and would be
on top of both composites surface.

RANDY

[aitkenstyle]

ooooooooooooooooooooo thanks for clearin that up Randy :D

[Doug Franklin]

I know I get a little to tech in some of my comments but if painted or not make sure it is sealed all the way around. Southwest Airlines for instance has a company making aluminum engine cowls because the CF cowls soak up oil on the edges where the paint tends to crack off. Of course the cowl raps around under the gearbox that drips. Probably not an issue here but I seem to not be able to stop myself.

The ends of the fiber soak up fluids. I guess glass does to.

[Randy N Connie]

Thats just plain bullshif.There is no way that glass or carbon fibers can soak
up oil.

The only way that this cowl can soak up oil.Is because the layup was of bad
design,or not enough prepreg in carbon in the layup,or fiber orientation was
not in the proper direction.And this is just a few reasons that would cause
delamination.That would create poresity between the fibers, then the oil is
soaked up in the pores around the fiber,not by the fibers.

If this cowl was designed as a MMC(metal matrix composite.)It would be less apt to delaminte
from the vibrations created by engine & wind turbulence.And it would have a barrier from oil
contamination that can be corrosive to the resins in a layup,If the improper resins were to
be used in the matrix of the composite part.

You are right about if you have exposed fibers on the edge or surface of a glass or cabonfiber composite
part. Vibrations can cause the peice to delaminate.Any fiber composite with epoxy as part
of the matrix system should have a complete coverage of resin on the edge or surface of the peice
being layed up.

If glass or carbon fibers had enough poresity to soak up oil.You could lay a peice of glass down
and pour oil on it, then the oil would run though the glass ,and onto the ground.The oil would
not do this.It would spread out,and run around the edge of the glass then onto the ground.

Your not talking tech,your talking about the patty on the ground behind longhorn TX tech.

RANDY

[Doug Franklin]

What ever does the soaking it will soak up moisture (water) and SWA reported oil. It was a big enough problem that SWA did in fact go against Boeing advice and had a company design and build engine cowls out of AL. No other airline did this. I don't know what the new 737-700 has since SWA kicked it off. Boeing never liked SWA much but now it is about the healthiest airline, and flys only Boeing. Maybe they will be a little more cooperative with them in the future.

Whether fiber or between the fiber, whatever. Dang Randy, everythig I have ever read about CF tells me it sucks up moisture and you have to have it sealed. On B-2 bomber we used to joke about it being too heavy because of moisture. We used to worry a bit about drilling holes because you expose fiber ends.

You take a piece of cloth or string and carborize it, it is still cloth or string. Cloth soaks. But soak it in prepreg and it seals it good, ususally. Solid graphite soaks up moisture and stuff.

One of the disasters I had with both graphite and CF was moisture in Illinoise vs Utah on a high temp furnace. Of course we exceeded the temp of the prepreg, so we were very vulnerable.

Sorry I mentioned it. None of this has to do with a CF hood, other than watch the edges.

Wood is vulnerable on the ends. Wood is a composite. Like these polls on my porch. No one sealed the bottom of them or put the little foot under them to keep and air gap with concrete and so it has soaked water over the years and rotted.

[Doug Franklin]

I used the term glass loosly referring to fiberglass which I have no experience with.

But if someone gets a hood 6" too long and cuts it. That edge is vulnerable to soaking up moisture in the air, and anything else I suppose. I am just referring to edges that are cut or the inside of the hole where it is drilled.

SWA had the problem right where the 2 cowl door edges touch, get banged and paint and prepeg probably get knocked away exposing the ends of the fiber. The gear box driped right onto the crack where the 2 doors came together. Boeing did not satisfy SWA so they did their own.

Guess I wasn't real clear throwing it out there like that in my first post on this.

[Randy N Connie]

One reason to use a autoclave when doing a lay up is because epoxy will attract
moisture during it curing process.So you need to introduce the composite part to
heat and vacunm to reduce the chance of delamination to bring most all composite
peices up to Mil-spec.To reduce the chance of delamintaion you can also use a bagging
system,and then introduce the bagged peice to heat,for the curing process.if a
autoclave is not available.This includes pre-preg mat or a wet layup.Delamintion
starts because of the lack of extraction of moisture during curing process,or exposed
fibers.

Carbonfiber its self is not expensive.Its the cost of the molds,the vacunm bagging,
and the price of the autoclave.To mold the peice, and greedy composite engineers.

I havent seen this part,but it seems that it may have been more cost effective to
to add a aluminum edge during the layup of the doors to protect against chafing .
So the oil or mosture would of not increase the delamination of the door edge.
And maybe SWA was not following maintenance schedule for this part.Like checking
for chafing,and resealing.

When drilling thru holes in composite peice,You should add a male & female aluminum insert with epoxy to
both sides strengthen the hole and the epoxy will protect the exposed fiber edge from delamination.

Your right about being a good idea to inform about the edge of a cut,sanded,or ground fiber
peice.Buy just buying most two part epoxy from the local auto parts store.and coating the
exposed edge will greatly increase its strength from cracking or delaminating.

And the carbonfibers that I used in making one of my engine part for my performance business.
Came from carbonized nylon.This is the carbon fibers that I used to make my pushrods
with.The pushrods are a MMC.The fibers are layed up undirectional with titainium strands
embedded with the carbonfbers,with 4130 chrommoly or titainium ballends.

RANDY

[Doug Franklin]

I bet those are some good push rods you have there Randy. If I ever get a high rev engine I may be interested. Wonder how much of things like that are in F-1 engines.

Guess I had not thought about Ti wire impregnated in there. Sounds good though. Wonder if we should look at that for some specail bolts.

Only experience I had with MMC was with SiC in AL. I guess also I saw sheet AL with AL rods sanwitched. But I like this Ti reinforced CF.

Don't get me wrong I like the idea of CF on an SC. I prolly bring up issues not to worry about. I would use Stainless or titanium inserts instead of Al in holes though in CF. Of course I always think in terms of 30 yrs in military aero products and discimilar materials come in to play. They usually use a fiberglass barrier between Al and CF. Most fasteners are Titanium, Inconell, or A-286 Stainless Steel. Galvanic corrosion is big deal, especialy on NAVY jets.

[Randy N Connie]

I am a racer so I think in terms of light weight & strength.This is why I said alminum inserts.

The push rods work the best below 9000 RPM.Other MMCs that I have test with little success
was piston wristpin.

I don't know about bolts,The pushrods are designed for a compressive load.The shear load
factor design is not as strong with the pushrod design.But this can be changed.

Before I retierd here are some of my carbon composite parts that I designed and had made,
or made,for H.D.s & sold.
Body parts ,fenders,tank shell,side panels.
Motor plates,and motor mounts.
Non adjustable pushrods.
Adjustable pushrods.
Wrist pins for piston.
cam covers.
carbon-carbon brake rotors,brakepads.
Modular C/F wheels.
piston buttons.
Wheelie bars.
Boby support struts for T/F- F-Cars.
Brake caliper brackets.
Golf clubs,arrows for bows, ECT.

If anyone would by a carbonfiber hood.Make sure you wear a mask when working with this stuff.
The fibers.If you get it in your lungs is not good.I know, I have problems
from working with composites.

I have the Hairy glass doors.They look good,but I have not tried to insall them yet to check
for fitment.

RANDY

[Doug Franklin]

Cool Randy. Wanna do a 96/97 hood? jk:D

Brake Rotors? Hmmm

Know the theory behind carbon-carbon? You can't burn burnt toast. haha So it is on the nose and leading edge of the space shuttle. Resists more heat than the tiles.

There is some thin wall Ti or CRES bushings available. CF and AL just don't get along and it creates corrosion.

[Doug Franklin]

From below I suppose if we had enough interest in any particular year we could get some discount. 10-20 hoods is a lot though. Here is the answer to my original question on the 96/97.

Doug,

Ok, let me see if I can answer all of you questions. First, we would be willing to make 96-97 hood but we would need a factory hood in great condition to pull our mold from. Then we would have to have at least ten of them sold, at no discount before we could cover the cost of making the mold. After the ten we would need sales of an additional ten or more to warrant a discount. We do not however offer a discount on carbon pieces but if the demand was overwhelming then we would consider a discount. You (or some one person) would have to handle the ordering to maintain the discount but we could ship to your customers directly. Now on to the mounting. The idea you have about mounting using cables instead of pins sound fine but you would have to relay your procedure to the interested members of your group. We have never made hoods that are designed to be used without pins but people have worked around it using ideas such as yours. The hinging would also have to be fabricated by you or your buddies but the only thing I can recommend is a hinge such as the ones used in Nascar and we could beef up that area in such a way that this could be done without adding much more weight. I hope that I made everything easy to understand and now it is up to you to do the rest. Let us know what you find out and if you need anymore help, feel free to e-mail us back and I'll do what I can.

Thanks,

Tom

[Randy N Connie]

Carbon-Carbon is a lay up that uses no resins.You place carbon material
in a mold ,then under heat & pressure for a set amount of time.I won't tell
you how the brake rotors were layed up.But these rotors were press in
a male female tube molds,heated,pressed.Then where cut off in slices.
Then surface machined.
RANDY

[Doug Franklin]

Wow. Yes I have seen CC manufactured at Vought Aircraft for the shuttle. I used to run a hot press myself for 4 yrs. CC allowed the military to burn hotter in missle and other engines. Hyper Velocity missles were made with no war head because they go so fast it destroys target.

Wow on those brake rotors. Who usses the rotors? Brakes need to get rid of heat in road racing for repeated use. Would I be correct in saying it is better for stoping a dragster than a road racer? Or good for landing aircraft where there is time for the brakes to cool before use again? Just curious.

[Jim Cook]

F1 cars have been using carbon fiber composite rotors and pads for quite some time now as have the GP bikes. Just watch a F1 race next year and watch those babies glow red hot and see the the wheels turn black from the dust. Anouncers almost never fail to mention the CF brakes. F1 has always been cutting edge technology so if they're using CF brake systems. that means that there isn't anything better out there. Carbon fiber is great stuff, I have a one piece carbon fiber bicycle (a couple of sets of CF wheels too) and I love it. It takes everything my 200+ lbs can throw at it, which is something that I can't say about some of the steel and Aluminum bikes that I've ridden. And oh yeah, it is painted red...

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

20 hoods at what cost? without discount

[Doug Franklin]

10 with-out. Get 20 and with.

[rawchicken]

Iwant to buy the whole front end and make it tilt forward,but hey i can do that with my stock one

[Randy N Connie]

The brake rotor was used byGP and top DRAG racers.the WT. is 4 oz.
Its made from the same material as the shuttles rocket nozzle.
The only people to offer such a peice was AP-Lockhead of France.
Mine were layed up by TREXRON.I did the design and machine work.
I started making them n 1987.

I wouldn't want to make hoods.I have some carbon parts for my SC.
And I have plans to make some more parts for my SC.But I have no plans
to offer to sell any parts.

[Toms-SC]

So is there anyword about the older style hood? Can anybody drive there and get it fitted right? :(

[JJanney]

I am within three hours of the place, but a lift-off hood just doesn't sound too good. I'd love a new hood and 94+ front end though.