Fram really is Junk

[1BADSC]

Got bored at work today so I went outside and took the Fram Filter off of my Jeep and installed a K&N oil filter.

My previous oil pressure with the Fram was 36 ilde and 40-41 psi during cruising.

With the new K&N filter i am pulling 41to 43psi at idle and 45-47psi at cruising speed.

I did this with the same Mobil One oil that has been in there for the last 1000 miles.

Just figured I would test out the theory about Frams being junk. :)

[al35thsc]

An oil fitlers capability and performance is measured by oil pressure? :confused:

Alex :rolleyes:

[1BADSC]

No but when a **** filter makes your pressure drop and allows dirty oil to flow back into the engine then it is Junk

[al35thsc]

And you saw the dirty oil flowing into your engine with the pressure gage? :confused:

Alex :rolleyes:

[1BADSC]

no i saw the dirty oil flowing back in from the different studies that have been done on them.. Let me ask you, how well does a paper back flow valve work? Exactly! It doesn't.

[al35thsc]

Well then how about jumping on the band wagon of Fram haters and quote some of those studies instead of making simple comments about your increase in oil pressure is because your new oil fitler is better. In that case, I'll go revv my engine so I can clean my SC's a little more. :rolleyes:

Alex

[1BADSC]

These were independent studdies not some study from K&N.


Edited by Moderator

[al35thsc]

Post removed by moderator

[1BADSC]

good for you. :) continue. What in the world is your whole gripe about? All I did was state some of the differences I found between the two filters, for anyone who was considering different filters.

[al35thsc]

Hey, thats great! It is good to know that there are true pioneers out there testing out a filters capability with an oil pressure gage. Only to be comfronted about their studies and have to resort to other peoples studies about them because their oil pressure gauge theory has no relevance. Keep doing all our dirty work for us 1Bad, we are all rooting for you so we may learn from your intensive testing. :rolleyes:

Alex

[stocker 89]

Fram are junk my buddy uses Synthetic oil in his 4.6. Anyway, during start up with a fram oil filter there was valve train noize. As soon as that crappy fram filter was replaced with a Napa the noize during start up was gone.

[SC UL8R1990]

i stopped using fram *immediatley* after i read all the tests and comparisons and such. When i picked up my SC i switched to synthetic and only use Mobil1 filters.

I would never reccommend a fram to anyone except maybe a ricer;)

[1BADSC]

All I did was state my experience with the oil pressure drop with the Fram Filters, because various tests had stated that Fram filters had poor oil pressure problems. So I stated the fact that, it was certainley the case in my situation. Cry me a river. I responded the way I did, because you were being stupid about the whole thing.

[SC UL8R1990]

its just an oil filter post, no need to get hostile ;) Were just expressing opinions here no need to get all wound up. Can't we all just...get along.

btw - Fram Sucks :p ;) :D :D

j/k

[TBirdDriver]

I also agree with 1BADSC.
I thought everyone knew that Fram oil filters were junk.

1BADSC: When you tested the pressures, did you do it with a
new Fram filter, and then a new K&N? Or is that the
reading with the old dirty Fram?

Get bored again in 3,000 miles and test the pressure again on
the now dirty K&N filter and post it back here. It would be interesting to see the result.

[1BADSC]

The Fram Filter was the same pressure when new and with 1,000 miles of use.

I will test the dirty K&N when I change it the next time. :)

[Darkside]

You guys change your oil every 3,000 miles? I just add it as needed. I figure it all gets cycled through eventually;)

BTW, I put a Purolator on mine, are those any good? It cost me 8 whole dollars so I fugured it must be good! Plus, it has Micromesh technology! Can't go wrong with that. lol

Hey, al35thsc, do you work for Fram or something? Maybe own a little stock? 1BADSC sure pushed your buttons:D

[SC UL8R1990]

You guys change your oil every 3,000 miles? I just add it as needed. I figure it all gets cycled through eventually


i did that in my winter beater last year
:eek: :eek: :eek: :D

i change the oil in my sc every 2500 miles though;)

[1BADSC]

In my sc i changed it every 1500 miles with mobil one. I had a guy that I worked with who drove an old chevy truck that used 3 1/2 quarts of oil on his 10 mile morning commute to work, so he never changed it he just kept adding it in. :)

[SC UL8R1990]

man every 1500 miles??

and i thought i was a little silly doing it 500 miles early:D

[1BADSC]

yeah, i just changed it everytime the indicator came on. i figured better safe than sorry.

[Digitalchaos]

I have seen the referenced studies, though I have heard they may be a little dated. New ones were created and I believe the results were at least slightly different. Also I believe there was a unique incidence which contributed to one of the testers opinions.

In any case, however, I have now used Fram oil filters on my Jeep Wrangler for 169,000 miles. It runs as well as, almost better seemingly, than new. Full power, equivalent gas mileage, ect. Oil changes with Quaker State (which was rumored to have excess wax years ago) & Fram every 3 k. It is also mostly original.. only very recently have I switched from Fram for unrelated reasons.

Also, while there may have infact been validly different oil pressure between the k&N and Fram, from the data I have gathered it appears many oil filters have different flow rates, and this is simply one of their performance characteristics.

Just an interesting topic that I figured I'd discuss with. :)

[1BADSC]

Where is al35thsc at now that there are people agreeing with me... Guess it is only fun to ridicule when it is against one person. But now I guess he will pop back up and respond to this so he doesn't look as bad.


And thank you Digitalchaos, for sharing that information. I am sure there are many other stories of success with Fram Filters. And I am sure there are a lot of people who have had bad luck with them as well.

When I started working at Autozone during college they used to have a large poster about why they refused to carry Fram Filters. The statement said that Fram had not quality control on their assembly lines and that they could not produce consistent quality filters. Then underneath of it they had a Duetsch Filter, Fram Filter, Mobil One, and Bosch Filter with the metal case cut off so that you could see inside. Half of the filter media on the Fram was crushed and ripped.

But Autozone ended up becoming a sell out when Fram brought out that EZ Grip oil filter and people were flocking to them like mad to get that easy turn filter.

Ever since then, before I ever saw any of the other studies I always refused to sell Fram or reccommend them to anyone. :) But that is just me, everyone else can do what they want. I am sure that Frams would be sufficient for most low performance cars, however, I would never consider one for any type of work truck/car or high performance car.

[silversc90]

one of the best oil filters made is an ac delco. the fram problem is a bad backflow valve design, on an engine with a vertical mounted filter the fram will work just fine.

[SC UL8R1990]

ac delcos are what my dads ZR1 vette uses. Its the only filter he uses for that car. Even though hes only changed it once since it's got 2,800 original miles on it:D

must be nice

[1BADSC]

Doesn't he change it from it just sitting. I thought that by products from the oil would start to break down after a while and gum things up. I always liked the ZR-1's. Do you have any pics of your dads?

[lowflying90]

studies or no studies, good or bad, i use and have used fram oil filters on all of my vehicles.

on my 1986.5 nissan truck which i bought with 82k on it, and which ran for 195k miles and it was still running good when I sold it too. i changed the oil with castrol 10w-40 and a fram oil filter ever 3-4k miles.

have the same on my coupe, and on my isuzu truck now.

i have no complaints.

Jeff

[NYC Russ]

I really do not mean this in a derogatory way (although I'm sure it's going to get misinterpreted), but I personally would not take any oil-related advice from someone who is changing his synthetic oil every 1500 miles, just because an idiot light said so. Aside from being Mobil 1's wet dream, it's unnecessary, and anyone who didn't know that is bound to offer suspect advice in other related areas. "Better safe than sorry"?? Then why not replace your tires every 5,000 miles? Your belts every 6 months? Your brake pads every 10,000 miles? Somehow, I doubt anyone does :)

Anyway, as far as flow rates go:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000513


Oh, and in case it's not obvious, see my title for my interest in this whole thread (<---- )

:cool:

[ddw350]

ive been changing mine every3000-4000 miles.i use the mobil one with a wix filter,they seem to be around 5-7 dollars,although lately ive been using fleetgard filters cause thats what the company now uses,i saw the post about the beater car using all that oil,i HAD a 78 nova with the 250 6cyl. in it,ran great,hardly used any oil about 2quarts every 3 years! no bull i never changed the oil in it till the week i sold it! it looked like black water when hot and like tar when cold,it also had a wix filter on it.the people at work said it would blow up eventually,that was 2 years ago....one of the selling points was"new oil and filter!" i wish i still had it actually......what a great car,oh yea, i only drove like 12 miles a day in it....

[1BADSC]

NYC Russ, what is wrong with changing the oil often. I was never very easy on the car and it often saw the full rpm Range on a daily basis. So i figured why not change it often just to help protect my investment. Can't hurt anything, so why not. I didn't change the oil because the light said so, I just used it as a reminder because it always came on around 1500 miles.

[NYC Russ]

Other than a colossal waste of money, nothing harmful to the car I suppose. Depending on the base stock they start with, the various synthetics on daily driven (not raced) cars easily exceed 10,000 miles with no ill effects, (based on a chemical analysis). I've personally seen two different cars with over 12,000 miles whose oil analyses came back nearly as clean as my fresh Mobil 1 (!) I don't have the balls myself to try that long a service interval, but I do think half that is quite reasonable.

Of course, if your motor has other problems (i.e. leaky HG), you'll obviously contaminate your oil much more quickly, but, quite frankly, I dount anyone using a quality synth needs to change more frequently than every 5,000-6,000 miles.

If you race (road/track - auto-x and drag to a much lesser extent), all bets are off :)

The only real way to know is to get your oil tested - it'll be the best ~$15 you ever spend. Plus, you'd be surprised to learn what such a test can tell you - everything from a clogged air filter to piston ring wear...

[1BADSC]

I contacted Mobile One a while ago, and they do not reccomend using their oil past 3,000 miles. The only one that I know for sure who does is Amsoil. Which I have been tempted to switch too. According to a ffriend that works for Amsoil, he said that Mobile one is no longer as good as it used to be, and that both Castrol and Valvoline Synthetic are better, at least for now. But I can do a Mobil one oil change for 21 bucks so I just keep using that.

[SC UL8R1990]

Doesn't he change it from it just sitting. I thought that by products from the oil would start to break down after a while and gum things up. I always liked the ZR-1's. Do you have any pics of your dads?

Well he just got it this past summer(after selling his 1970 454 LS6 Chevelle, real LS6 ), so he only changed the oil once so far. When he got it, it was at 600 original miles (yes, six hundred). It was in nevada basically sitting since brand new. ZR1's are extremely rare. Its the fastest vette ive ridden in, including a Z06. We also had a 67' split window 327 Vette, an 84 vette, and an 85.

BTW It's black with black interior with all options. original price was $30,000 for the vette and i believe another $34,000 for the ZR1 option......basically a race car, LOL. So yea in 1990 it was a $64,000 corvette. It's made to compete with the supercars.

Im looking for the disk with all his pictures on it so give me a few minutes here. I'll find em,host em, and post em:D

[mn12sc35th]

Of course mobil1 doesnt want you to use it past 3000.... they'll make 1/2 as much money off the avearge person if they realised that changing it at 3000 is a waste.

Most manufacturers maintainance schedules say something along the lines of 5000-6000, (the 91 service manual says when the VMM indicates it or no later than 5000 miles or 6 months for normal conditions... and thats for conventional oil).

I personally still change the oil in the NA V6 around 3000 but on the SC I plan to run synthetic and go for around 6000

[1BADSC]

Another bit of information about those long service intevals. If you have seen all of these new cars coming out with oil change intervals set at 10,000 and 15,000 miles, (Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Honda, and so on) don't believe one word of it. They are taxed on the amount of waste the car produces over its lifetime, so they up the intervals to cut back on waste. Mercedes has even gone so far as to say that the Tranny never needs to be serviced. My mechanic at Mercedes was explaining all of this too me when I took mine in for a tranny and filter change. According to corporate they would rather you buy the 4,000 dollar tranny than do routine maintence. But oddly enough they sell the parts for their Non serviceable tranny. What a scam.

[SC UL8R1990]

pictures dont do it justice especially when my dad takes the pics , hehe

#1
http://www.wd-co.com/pictures/albums/1070662753/5.jpg
#2
http://www.wd-co.com/pictures/albums/1070662753/6.jpg

[SC UL8R1990]

#3
http://www.wd-co.com/pictures/albums/1070662753/2.jpg
#4
http://www.wd-co.com/pictures/albums/1070662753/4.jpg

[1BADSC]

Looks slow to me :)

i bet the new Z06 will edge it out on a drag or road course, but up until this latest model (Z06) I think the ZR1's are great. Looks really nice. Tell you dad to get out there and Drive it like he stole it

[SC UL8R1990]

i dont know all the stats but....

ZR1 is 400hp 415 ft/tq

Z06 is 406hp 400 ft/tq - i think

the zr1 is substantially lighter and the zr1 was made for every aspect of drivng. More than 1 lateral G's , 189mph top speed, etc,etc,etc......

but yea anyways , i love my SC:p :D ;)

[1BADSC]

Did you ever see the DVD "Fast Cars" Jay Leno does the Voice over. They examine the Porsche 911 Turbo, the Ferrari F50 and the Corvette ZR-1. Cool video. They talk with Steve Callaway about it and everything else. Maybe I can rip the ZR-1 Part of the video and host it for you.

[SC UL8R1990]

thatd be really cool, my dad would get a kick outa that. :D

take your time doing it though, im on 56k modem right now:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: and wont have high speed back until DEC. 17th.:mad:

[1BADSC]

LOL ok. Maybe you can just give me an address and I can burn the whole DVD for you and send it out. email me at bmforlife@hotmail.com

[SC UL8R1990]

you've got mail :cool:

btw- sorry about hijacking the thread everyone! you may resume......:p

[1BADSC]

What year is your Dads vette. I am showing 405HP and 385lbs-tq for 1994.

[SC UL8R1990]

its the first year 1990 and i just looked it up too, lol. The 1990 has 375hp .....but it has the quickest 1/4 time out of all the zr1's produced?? did they get heavier? damn GM's;)

let the hijacking continue.......

[SC UL8R1990]

12.89 @ 112.1 in the 1/4

sounds about right with a curb weight of 3462

geez thats slow:o :p ;) :D :D

[1BADSC]

lol. Not sure. I know my 79 Vette was heavy as all hell.

[SC UL8R1990]

i dont know too much about vettes. I know Super coupes and muscle cars 1971 and under;) But since im only 18 im still a little low on knowledge , even though i know everything (what my dad tells me) , hehe ;)

[1BADSC]

yeah, been there done that. I restored the 79 during Highschool, it was for my graduation present. I did almost all of the work with my dad watching over my shoulder to help me out where needed. But I ended up selling it and getting 1972 Monte Carlo SS 454. :) Black with pea green vinyl. mmm. nice. lol
Nice and fast after we were done though.

p.s Fram oil filters are junk. :)

[SC UL8R1990]

But I ended up selling it and getting 1972 Monte Carlo SS 454. Black with pea green vinyl.

gotta love big blocks :)

[1BADSC]

oh yeah, it was very nice. Although it was really loud with the side pipes I had on it. I had to change it to flowmasters our the back.

[1BADSC]

ahh, duh, news flash to me. I think they talk about the ZR-1 and mostly review the Callaway Corvette instead of the ZR-1

Do you still want the DVD.

[Darkside]

Sidenote:
I was at the strip last weekend and got to see one hell of a race. It matched up a brand new stock Z06 with a procharger setup(lots O' money!) against a stock 93 Mustang LX 5.0 with a turbo setup. Actually the Mustang had aftermarket head studs but the rest of the car was stock right down to the stock AOD. Checked it out myself. Anyhoo, the first race was this: Vette=12.25/115.00 to the mustangs 12.30/don't remember speed here. Second run was this: Vette= 12.20 to the Mustangs 12.15. Third and final matchup was this: Vette:12.15 at a 121Mph to the Mustangs 11.9 at a 115Mph. It was an awesome battle to watch. Mainly because the Mustang kicked Vette butt. The coolest thing was that these cars were both stockers minus the power adders. You gotta love the 5.0 liter engine. Not a bad thing you can say about it. I'm sure these guys will race again, so I will try to get some video for you guys to see.

P.S. Fram oil filters suck, plus they're orange.:D

[1BADSC]

That is one thing I still haven't figured out. So far from all of the vidoes that I have seen, the Z06 vettes with aftermarket superchargers don't run that much faster than their stock counterparts. I guess the centrif superchargers can take most of the blame for that since they take a lot of rpm to really make the power. They should run a pop off valve and overdirve the charger to make full boost at 2800 to 3000 rpms and vent excess boost to the atmoshpere. I think it would make a big difference.

[89_Red_Xr7]

http://www.wd-co.com/pictures/albums/1070662753/4.jpg[/img] [/B] Lotus Engineered Chebby 350 = W00T!

Andrew:D

[kevenj90sc]

hey did anyone know that fram filters suck? :-) they really do, i've seen more than one case where an engine had poor oil pressure and all it took to fix it was remove the Fram filter and install a real oil filter. Wix or Napa....is what i use...

[Doug Franklin]

Anyone remember that Mobile 1 was advertised to go 10,000 miles or there were reports to that. Or am I just dreaming?

I noticed 10k is dropped now. The stuff was expensive and they were trying to get people to use it. I want to say it used to say 10k right on the bottle back then.

[Tweeeeka]

Sorry to interrupt the hijacking, but I just had to say something about the K&N filter. I ran them for a few changes on my 4.6L bird and on my 4.0 SOHC exploder (same filter as a 302) and the last one I had for my bird had a problem with the drainback valve. Park the thing for more than twenty minutes and it would give that nasty dry valvetrain noise. Changed over to Mobil 1 filters and the problem went away. I like the construction of the mobil 1 better anyways. The 1" nut on the back of the K&N just got in the way and even in the exploder where you could actually get a socket over the thing it still wasn't all that useful. I don't think saftey wire is necessary at this point either:D

[NYC Russ]

Not to interrupt a nice hijack, but a brief word on the 10k recommended" oil change interval.

1: An across-the-board mileage recommendation can never work due to the enormous variety of both cars and driving styles that the oil will encounter. That's why every manufacturer (car and oil) chooses something on the short side of the spectrum, just to make sure they encompass even the hashestly driven cars.


2: Very few people actually drive their cars that hard. (Racers excluded - you guys should check out Motul and forget about the new Mobil 1)


3: Factor in the liability issues for say, Mobil 1 to recommend a 6k change interval when the car manufacturers are saying 3k.



1 + 2 + 3 = the antiquated notion that a 3k oil change is necessary for most people using synthetic. Hell, even good dino oils can safely see more than 3k these days. Of course, no one at the oil companies are crying if you spend 2-3x per year what you'd otherwise need to to maintain your car :)


The only problem is every car and every driver is different. Only an oil analysis can tell you a safe interval for sure!!! BMW's have a "computer" which "analyzes" the motor's performance (i.e. how much time spent running, time spent not running, time spent at WOT, rpm's reached, etc) and "customizes" its oil change recommendation accordingly, completely the opposite of the SC's VMM :)

[SC UL8R1990]

Lotus Engineered Chebby 350 = W00T!

}Homer Simpson voice} " 4 cams " {homer simpsons drooool} agggaggaaa

[al35thsc]

:)


OK, go re-read my replies and never ONCE did I say that Fram were good filters. In fact my whole point to this was the fact that EVERYONE knows that Frams suck and I didnt need to see another 4 page thread saying "lol yeah they suck, STFU, lol" and then end up in some other topic that had nothing to do with the original intent. Kinda like what happened here huh??

This is why I and other people lost interest in the SCCOA (Thank God for the members only section where I lurk for REAL tech info and for the REAL SCers I met here that I can simply call and ask info to). I'm not alone here, there are other boards portraying the same sentiment. the merger was bitter sweet, but at least it keeps the trolls out here.

There's just too many people here that think its their personal playground and come in here and post stupid crap that isnt even SC related. I know this will get deleted sometime soon, but hey, whatever floats the mods boat is fine with me. Ijust find it interesting how Religion threads are shut down because they are "off topic" but other posts about pontiacs are left alone :rolleyes: (George, I think we need those forum rules you talked to me about, posted).

To answer the questions, no I don't own stock in Fram; I WISH! There are still morons out there that buy those things.

I didnt reply sooner because this thread started Friday night, on my birthday and I had better things to do with my time than to keep replying to 1bad.

Finally, I wasn't even going to reply to this thread because it would mean that it would take another 4 pages from 1bad (which will inevitably happen now that I did reply unless the thread is shut down) and make him happy since this is his whole purpose...meaningless multi page threads on a Super Coupe board by a person who doesnt own an SC anymore yet has nothing to do than to come here and post yet ANOTHER thread about Fram and their sucky filters :rolleyes: If I hit google and type "Fram's suck", I'm sure I'll find pages upon pages of this crap, so I was bored and had nothing to do but ridicule another troll for doing it again. (WHOA, talk about runon sentence). Unless you have been living under a rock, you have seen a million of these things.

In fact, the only reason I did reply...read my title <<<< :D

Now on with the rebuttal and 4 pages of "1bad is cool al35thsc, leave him alone STFU he's our friend" :rolleyes:

Alex

[Darkside]

You're right about the non tech and tech forums being out of control. I personally am starting to post my technical questions in the Members only forums and I just post the oddball stuff here. Don't get me wrong, you can still get some good info in these two forums but there are a lot of off topic threads started, some by me!:D These forums I use for BS'n.

[al35thsc]

Originally posted by Darkside
These forums I use for BS'n.

According to the replies I get in emails from the Mods when I get a post of mine deleted or chopped, "The non-tech forums are to discuss non-technical SC related topics" So that is exactly my point. Don't get me wrong, I havent posted a technical topic on here for months! I just think this place is crumbling down for lack of rules and for letting people like 1bad continue to post here.

Alex

[tbirdsc357]

I can't believe I just read through this wad of bull$hit.:rolleyes:


If only the forums was the way it used to be 3 years ago.

[1BADSC]

hey al35thsc, then why did you bother posting to argue in the first place? Maybe I will pay the membership fee so I can bother you in the members only secton too. :) wouldn't that be nice.


And by the way al35thsc, it looks like the posts that I have started in the past few weeks are the most viewed and most replied to topics in the non tech section. So there must have been something interesting about them. And the "Non Tech Forum" is listed as "Open Discussion that does not fit in any other forum."

[Superloop]

HOLY CRAP!! I just spent 15 minutes of my beautiful life reading this whole thread:D
By the way, so only the people that pay the membership fee and become members knowabout the SC? I guess i'll have to pay and I will be a good SC mastermind.......what a bunch of nonsense
And fram do suck....Im wit U 1BAD.......Im the texan that called u when you said you would trade ur 95 model supercharger for the older style,'cause u were trading the SC......and yeah you never did that:D MAN I wanted that SUPERCHARGER. he ehehehe

[1BADSC]

yeah, first come first serve. :) I ended up selling it outright instead of trading it in. So i didn't end up pulling it off. Sorry.

[silversc90]

if fram were as bad as what every body lets on they would have been out of buisness years ago.

[al35thsc]

Originally posted by 1BADSC
And by the way al35thsc, it looks like the posts that I have started in the past few weeks are the most viewed and most replied to topics in the non tech section. So there must have been something interesting about them. And the "Non Tech Forum" is listed as "Open Discussion that does not fit in any other forum."

Thats exactly what trolls want and thats exactly what you got, so you are happy. Brother, I've been here for a VERY long while and I know the type of "member" that you are. You're the type of person who starts threads with topics that will require a bunch of pages, a crapload of views, use up resources that you don't even pay for, and in the end, end up as nothing but a bunch of crap that was no good to anyone.

Superloop, please read the posts over again as you have missed the point, EVERYONE KNOWS FRAM FILTERS SUCK. Yeah, the new ones with new "technology" are arguably better, but no one on this thread has defended those, or attacked them for that matter. Pay the membership fee if you want, I didn't for the SCCoA until it merged with TBSCEC, and now that I did its bitter sweet since we have all the good guys, but we get a bunch of, um, not so good guys.

Trust me when I say this 1bad, the SCCOA isn't a better club because of members like you, the REAL enthusiests who make this club something good to be a part of hardly even post here.

The SCCoA isnt a better club because you started a 4905872345890 page debate on what filter is better, or what religion is better, or what the new SC will be (GTP or not), or what flavor coffee we order at Starbucks....I mean get a life here, what's next "Boxers or Briefs"?

http://forums.webrats.com/images/smilies/nono.gif

Alex

[1BADSC]

Well since you asked it is boxers! :) And I think you are very wrong about this free forum. There are many good posts on here that have helped a great many people out of tough jams. I am sorry if you think the members section is the only place for good information. So should we get rid of this forum, and the tech forum, and the cars for sale forum, and the SC newbie forum. Maybe if we did that we could stop the growth of the SC community since no one other than paying members would be able to use the site. I have watched the site a ton since early 1998 but never posted because I wasn't going to pay a membership fee just to post and get chargin thunder. Maybe we should just make the site locked to members with passwords only and then no one will ever join because the site will be locked to paying members only.

Would you like for me to delete this thread? IF you ask nicely I will. :)

[gldiii]

The train wreck is over. It's amazing how one legitimate innocuous post could turn into this. My apologies to 99% of the board posters both member and guest for not ending this sooner.