PDA

View Full Version : How many of us could realistically afford a turbo



Darkside
12-12-2003, 07:11 PM
There has been a debate about turbos vs. superchargers, which one is better, which one offers more bang for the buck. The debate is also on about which route would lead to the 11's, for example, cheapest. Well the way I see it, our cars come with the M90. So to go with the turbo that puts any owner in a 4,600.00 hole right at the start. Now, granted the turbo setup comes with a fuel pump, bigger injectors, and other things, so we'll just call it a 4,000.00 hole. Now, if you took a stock SC, and put on a turbo setup how fast would it be(estimation)? What about if you put 4,000.00 into a stock SC and kept the M90, how fast would that be?

BTW, I have to agree with MannySC, I frown on the whole turbo movement, the supercharged 3.8 is what makes an SC an SC. Not some ground effects and suspension, although those are a small part. The standard t-birds had IRS also so that's not a factor. Anyway, to each his own. :D

89SCK@t
12-12-2003, 07:45 PM
Shi-ka-ka...cant afford one, but would buy one if i could....

MIKE 38sc
12-12-2003, 09:01 PM
You know if you had fab skills you could cut that $4,000 kit down to about $1,000 to have a turbo on your SC. I really dont understand all the reluctance to use a turbo. I've in the past owned several turbo cars and was very pleased with them. A turbo is no more expensive to run than a blower.
I still to this day have 2 turbo cars and the SC and I like both.:)

pearl95sc
12-12-2003, 09:38 PM
Mike is right, you could fab a turbo setup for about $1000-1500 counting in a good intercooler. The main kicker on our SC/XR7's is figuring out where to put the turbo and route all the piping, both intake and exhaust. I already said plenty of times, if my bottom end doesn't like this setup, and decides to spin a bearing, or somethin else requiring me to do an overhaul, then turbo I go.

pro street rich
12-12-2003, 09:57 PM
This is something that I have been playing with for some time now.. On one of my big blocks it would make it a lot harder to see something has been done to the car... We have been talking about doing this on the 6?? inch car, but it will have to be a twin to feed that bad boy....
Now as far as doing a 3.8, keep in mind that ALL the inercoolling tubes will be moved to the front of the car. This will open up a LOT of room to do a tubro.... Those of us that saw the twin tubro 03 Cobra at the shoot out will remember how much space was left on that car... I see no trouble mounting it on a 3.8 and still keeping all the goodies, like air and such...
Doing it on something other than a 3.8 should not be too much trouble either... There is a lot of room in these engine bays to play around....Just my $0.02 worth here.....Rich

pearl95sc
12-12-2003, 10:38 PM
Well, in a nutshell, here's a go on my visionary turbo setup. Use a set up tbird88's ported and opened manifolds. Reverse them so they exit via the front. Make some custom downtubes that flow around to the front of the engine. Mount the turbo in the front of the crank pulley, shoot the ic tubes around the front to a fmic, and back and up to the MP throttle body, mounted via a custom elbow for the lowrise manifold. Route the 3in exhaust down the pass side, and split it into dual 2.5 in all the way out. Throw in a BOV, and a boost controller, and voila, turbo coupe via mn12. It does sound easier in writing than it would in real life.

Rob Noth
12-12-2003, 11:25 PM
If I was going to blow four grand on the car, it wouldn't be for a turbo. If I'm going to junk the M-90 and make it a "non factory engined" type car, forget the turbo, I'm getting 8 cylinders. For four grand you could get a blown 5.0, or a 383 stroker, or a big block, there are many options...

MIKE 38sc
12-12-2003, 11:46 PM
Oh I agree with you Rob. I think Pro Street Rich has the right idea, twin turbo'ed Big Block!:D

XxSlowpokexX
12-13-2003, 12:42 AM
My turbo cost me around 1800 alone....SO I figure a smaller used turbo and used IC and self fabbed pipes..Yah you might be able to hit 1500..Then when you realize there is no way in hell your stock EEC is going to handle it..You drop a few more K on a stand alone DFI setup..And hope you can get it running right...You guys can do this project

Randy N Connie
12-13-2003, 07:12 AM
I could not afford a turbo kit.But I would not have any problem in fabing
a system up.I allready have all the parts to do this but some rubber hose
to connect the IC tubing.It can be done for less than $500.00 if you have
the turbo or turbos.I have two turbos.But before I would try one or two
turbo set up.I would try a turbo to boost the supercharger first.With about
6 or 7 pounds of boost.

You donot need to go out and buy new turbos,ones from the junk yard
would be just fine.Bearings are not that costly to just rebuild a turbo $10.00.

randy

kuhnga
12-13-2003, 08:46 AM
I guess this $4000 number is assuming you already have $7000 in your ling block to handle the power? I am with Damon on the additional $2-3K plus on a DFI or other stlye piggyback computer.
Buying one and fabing it up is only 20% of the work and cost involved.

V6 mustangs buy ALL the parts they need from me to put a SC on there cars fro $600. Do you think that is all it is going to cost?

MIKE 38sc
12-13-2003, 11:18 AM
The SC engine is already built for forced induction. You dont have to do anything to the block or engine for it to safely use a turbo.
Anything that is presently being done to SC motors for use with the blower are the same things that are done for using a turbo.
The latest threads about turbocharging prove the lack of understanding at this site about turbo's.
Alot of the info I've read in these threads is very old info about turbo's and not true of the turbo's from the last 5-10 years.

kuhnga
12-13-2003, 11:27 AM
Anything that is presently being done to SC motors for use with the blower are the same things that are done for using a turbo

And that is spending $7000 on a long block! Even the few that are getting Big HP #'s with the shock short block have $3000 in heads and cam.

Mike are you saying you can take a stock SC and put twin turbos on it and run 11's with out anything else? If so I have one that I would like to have done.:D
Why are we having this conversation on 10 different threads?

dirtybird91
12-13-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by kuhnga
Why are we having this conversation on 10 different threads?


It's my fault Dude! I am a guilty, red, dirty-bird!
:D :D :D
Frank

Randy N Connie
12-13-2003, 12:07 PM
After owning other turbo charged Fords.A nd working on them.
They are set up much the same as far as sensors and ect.

AND MIKE IS RIGHT AS HE USUALLY IS.:cool:

RANDY

MIKE 38sc
12-13-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by kuhnga
And that is spending $7000 on a long block! Even the few that are getting Big HP #'s with the shock short block have $3000 in heads and cam.

Mike are you saying you can take a stock SC and put twin turbos on it and run 11's with out anything else? If so I have one that I would like to have done.:D
Why are we having this conversation on 10 different threads?

Gary what I'm saying is you can put twin turbo's on a stock SC engine without fear of it exploding, thats just not going to happen unless you have done something really stupid like try to run 25 psi boost.
Getting into 11's with a turbo is no more costly than doing it with a blower. Like I said earlier if you have fab skills or have a friend that does(Dave) and is willing to help you the cost of that turbo conversion drops dramaticaly.
I've seen alot of turbo kits lately that are just a plain and simple rip off. The most expensive part in the kit is the turbo itself, which can be bought for less money than a ESM or Magnum Charger blower. The kit makers are really marking up the tubing they sell with there kit, its just plain obscene what they are charging.
The key to doing it cheaply is eliminating all the middle men in getting the parts. Dont buy your tubo from somebody that has bought it from someone who bought it from someone else who bought it from yet another person. The turbo is being marked up a min. of 100% each time it changes hands, I learned about that way back in the early 80's when I first got involved with turbo's.
Also you do not need a stand alone comp system to run a turbo on an SC. The SC comp system is already programed for boost, all you have to do is use a tuner to change things up alittle and people are already doing that with the blower.
The one big problem with turboing an SC motor is the intake manifold. But if you can fab thats not that big of a problem either, just make your own sheetmetal intake manifold.
Truth is that manifold is just plain horribale for turboing or supercharging, it just doesnt even come close to having the proper plenum volume needed. Theres alot of hidden power in the SC engine because of that crappy intake manifold.;)

Randy N Connie
12-13-2003, 12:31 PM
It would be easy and cheap to turbo.You just need to delete the
bracket on the front of the SC engine to start.

And MIKE IS RIGHT AGAIN.:D

Randy

kuhnga
12-13-2003, 01:01 PM
Mike,

I know what you are saying and as you know I am not a Nah sayer. This could be done and will be done, but it would take someone with alot of resources and time. I would not go though the trouble unless I knew I could handle the power to run 9's or so. I would hope to get to 10's with a SC type setup, I know I can do that alot cheaper, which I will.
If Randy or The Daves or even you said they are putting a turbo on a V6 and run 10's I would have no doubt it would happen. I do not want people to get the false expectation that it is simple and cheap to do and the rest of us are dumb for spending all the money we have spent to go 11's.

Randy- Easy is relative! For the other 99.99% of us that could not do this ourselves it would not be easy. Your welcome to fabricate anything you need on my car through!:D

David Neibert
12-13-2003, 01:18 PM
It looks like the 3.8 NA manifold will bolt right up and would be much better for turbocharging an SC.

David

MIKE 38sc
12-13-2003, 01:31 PM
I'm not saying that you are a nay sayer Gary and I'm not trying to start trouble with anyone about this subject, but I've seen alot of stuff posted in these turbo threads that just arent true today. Back in 80-84 with the turbo technology of that day then yes it was true, but not today. Old war stories and wifes tales die hard.
I'm not saying that I would turbo the SC because I have considered it because I have 2 Mitsu 16-G- big turbo's now but I just could not find a place to put them under the SC hood that satisfied me. I'm not saying it can't be done but I started playing with them in 85 with the help and guidance of a fella I had the pleasure to meet named Buddy Ingersol.
I learned alot from Buddy and got a big charge out of watching him humilate all the big boys in NHRA pro stock with his little 3.8 6 cylinder buick. Three races was all it took for the NHRA to ban his car from pro stock. (an experiment the NHRA was trying out)
Truth is an SC with the blower could get into the 10's if the thing had an intake manifold that was even close to what it needs to be for the engine.
That is what I beleive to be the one big obstacles to these cars getting into the 10's. Like I said before a fabricator would have very little trouble taking care of that problem economicaly.:)

MIKE 38sc
12-13-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by David Neibert
It looks like the 3.8 NA manifold will bolt right up and would be much better for turbocharging an SC.

David

That would be a good start. But I would chop the plenum off the thing and weld one on that had 1.5 times the swept volume of 1 cylinder of the SC engine. Then you would have something.;)

mn12sc35th
12-14-2003, 02:41 AM
I suppose if you plan on making a flat out racer a turbo setup could be worth investing in but most of us are in to street/strip and work on our own cars...

I couldn't imagine the extra crap that would be in the way if we had turbos (You'll have to come up with a much more efficent intercooler I would assume due to the excess heat from the exhaust and the engine oil, plus all the extra piping invloved).

I'll stick with my M90 for now (plus theres just something about a blower.... and my ricer friends want turbos, I can't think like them [eww])

XR7 Dave
12-14-2003, 08:24 AM
I can't think like them [eww]) Hahahaa that is funny! :D Good point.

droptop5.0
12-14-2003, 09:03 AM
On the subject of engine durability with the turbo setup, I believe running a belt driven supercharger cost around 40% of the power it adds to engines output due to drag. I f your sc will add 100 horsepower to the engine, the engine will use 40hp to make it work. Turbos on the other hand, are using waste to run. A turbo engine at the same boost levels will outperform a sc'd engine and it won't have to work as hard to do it. THis will allow you to turn up the boost without any extra strain on the engine. There are, of course, lots of other things to consider but I believe these are the basics. So get to work and bring on the nines!:)

superdadsc
11-07-2012, 09:44 AM
If I was going to use a turbo it would be in conjuntion with the SC. Some of this seems silly though as I am just as guilty as anyone in the quest for HP. I had two 928's. A 79 4.5L with Euro cams and headers. It made 225rwhp and a Euro 85 928 with a 4.7L twinscrew SC with 375rwhp. The 79 I had for years and I could beat on it like no other car I have ever owned. The harder I drove her the more she liked it. Well balanced just a awesome driver. The Euro became available and all I saw was that twinscrew and all that power. It was a pain in the butt on the street, hard to track, had to watch your throttle, the back end would get loose on first to second shifts with less than 1/2 throttle. It was harder to control and much less enjoyable to drive, but she looked good.

If all you want to do is go in a straight line and hit the gas then all that power is needed to have the ET"s for 1/4 mile racing. For a street car, a big block with turbo's OMG where could you use it on the street. 500rwhp good luck with that setup. Give me a 300rwhp SC and try to keep up with me on the street where there are curves, hills, breaking etc. Ricardo said it well in a tread about a well balanced SC with 300rwhp. I agree with him a 100% Well balanced in my mind also means ease of maintenance and not having to worry about stuff breaking. I just wanna hammer it and hammer it all day long, day in and day out!
I love cars and I love power but I want to be able to use it. I wish I had the money to setup a 1/4mile car but I don't. So that means I have to put things into perspective.
A turbo on a SC in conjuntion with the blower would be a mean machine. It would also sound like no other. That will be my quest. Just give me 7 to 8lbs of boost for the top end with a stock ported late model blower and let the power fall where it may.:D

kenewagner
11-07-2012, 10:50 AM
If I was going to use a turbo it would be in conjuntion with the SC. Some of this seems silly though as I am just as guilty as anyone in the quest for HP. I had two 928's. A 79 4.5L with Euro cams and headers. It made 225rwhp and a Euro 85 928 with a 4.7L twinscrew SC with 375rwhp. The 79 I had for years and I could beat on it like no other car I have ever owned. The harder I drove her the more she liked it. Well balanced just a awesome driver. The Euro became available and all I saw was that twinscrew and all that power. It was a pain in the butt on the street, hard to track, had to watch your throttle, the back end would get loose on first to second shifts with less than 1/2 throttle. It was harder to control and much less enjoyable to drive, but she looked good.

If all you want to do is go in a straight line and hit the gas then all that power is needed to have the ET"s for 1/4 mile racing. For a street car, a big block with turbo's OMG where could you use it on the street. 500rwhp good luck with that setup. Give me a 300rwhp SC and try to keep up with me on the street where there are curves, hills, breaking etc. Ricardo said it well in a tread about a well balanced SC with 300rwhp. I agree with him a 100% Well balanced in my mind also means ease of maintenance and not having to worry about stuff breaking. I just wanna hammer it and hammer it all day long, day in and day out!
I love cars and I love power but I want to be able to use it. I wish I had the money to setup a 1/4mile car but I don't. So that means I have to put things into perspective.
A turbo on a SC in conjuntion with the blower would be a mean machine. It would also sound like no other. That will be my quest. Just give me 7 to 8lbs of boost for the top end with a stock ported late model blower and let the power fall where it may.:D

You realize this is a very very old thread;) Given that the nice thing about the turbo set up is you can dial up boost as needed. 6 to 10 lbs for street fun or 18+ for the romp at the strip. The kind of flexability you dont get as much with the blower other than swapping pulleys. Besides I use to be one of the guys that said I would be satisfied with 300 rwhp, yeh and the moon is made of Cheese:D We have come along way from when this thread started

Ken

superdadsc
11-07-2012, 08:00 PM
Wow it is old. So are my eyes!:eek: I love turbo's,SC,small blocks, big blocks you name if it is fun to drive I am in!:D Ken your car is awesome and have loved watching it change over the years.

There comes a point were the power gets to high to be a DD car, if that is what you are looking for. What do you think is a highest HP level for this car that is reliable and streetable?

kenewagner
11-07-2012, 09:17 PM
Wow it is old. So are my eyes!:eek: I love turbo's,SC,small blocks, big blocks you name if it is fun to drive I am in!:D Ken your car is awesome and have loved watching it change over the years.

There comes a point were the power gets to high to be a DD car, if that is what you are looking for. What do you think is a highest HP level for this car that is reliable and streetable?

I am probably not the best one to ask as my car hasnt ever been used as a daily driver. My car drives fine when ever I drive it and made over 400 rwhp, always starts, runs cool. I hope to make 600 rwhp and dont expect any diffrence in traffic as I dont expect to run a lot of boost on the street. I just like seeing it evolve into something diffrent. I want to see big HP numbers, great track numbers and win a car show are two;) and cruse the streets on occassion I guess im greedy:p

Ken

Ken

Mike8675309
11-07-2012, 09:31 PM
HP is not a good measure for street-ability. It really ends up being the mods that go along with supporting the power that lead to issues with street-ability. A well engineered turbo car should be able to be very progressive and fun daily driven (fine at low rpm, with decent torque, and not too peaking at more than part throttle). But add a high stall torque converter with no lockup, suspension mods and gutting to get the ET, then adding the cage to deal with the et, and suddenly the car not only isn't fun daily driven, but it's no longer safe.

Same thing with any powerful supercharged car, though they tend to need less engineering for decent torque at cruising speeds, they then sacrifice some for total power. The problem with positive displacement blowers is they tend to have a window of ideal rpm operation, and that window rarely encompasses the entire RPM curve you might want. So if you bias it to higher rpm, then you lose low end power, and you bias it to low end rpm, you loose higher rpm power. You can design around that pretty good though and still make a very street-able car. Again, though, it's the suspension changes, torque converter setup, cage and all that are issues.

Personally, I found driving a manual sc with the stock 5 speed gears and a 440rwhp motor to be damn fun daily driving. I think it was much more fun than a similarly powered auto car would be but I like manual transmissions. But I could see my next steps making it more difficult. next step would have been to get rid of the A/C, get a better seat for racing, cut some weight, and a number of changes that would have taken it further and further from a daily driver car.

JT's03
11-07-2012, 10:13 PM
I was happy with 450rwhp in my 3200lb turbo mustang. I'm sure once I crank it up to 600rwhp it will be a blast. I'm also fond of big stall auto's.

Rick_Leuce
12-31-2012, 11:55 AM
I don't know much of anything about Turbos or SC's, but I hear that Turbos are better if you're interested in drag racing but the SC is a funner daily driver.

I like the 1986 Mustang SVO (4-cyl Turbocharged) and the 1988 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. Someday I might buy one if its a good deal.