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ThunderDave
01-07-2004, 06:51 AM
That's all I heard from an email buddy that used to have a 92 super coupe. He had warned me about all the problems I would have with the 91 SC I bought, because he had so many with his. Now that the head gaskets have blown, that's all I'm hearing is "I told you so".

He thought I should junk it or part it out before spending any more money on it. When I told him I was fixing it, he said I was crazy and said it would just keep costing me money in repairs to keep the car. Now he is saying that if I only do the the top half and not build the bottom half, I'm just asking for trouble.

Has anyone ever had the head gaskets blow and built back the top half and then had the bottom half let go? I'm sure his intentions are good, but sounds like he thinks since he had problems with his, all will have problems. He told me I should come on here and ask this question, so I'd like to get some feedback so I can tell him. As far as I know, no coolant mixed with the oil. Going back with new Ford parts (head gasket set (with all gaskets needed for rebuild and valve seals), head bolts, thermostat, plug wires and Autolite plugs). I'll also be getting a new radiator. Should I be concerned about building back the top half and not the whole engine?

Please let me know and I can pass the info onto my friend to ease his mind a little.

Thanks,

David

BT Motorsports
01-07-2004, 07:25 AM
David, its often a crapshoot when doing the headgaskets as to whether your bottom end will start knocking shortly down the road. How many miles are on your engine? How long do you intend to keep the car and what are your long term goals? These are questions you need to address before proceding. You may pull the motor, tear it down and find a bunch more work to do, but the end results will make you sleep better knowing what you are working with.

Paul

MercsSC
01-07-2004, 08:50 AM
I did ..when mine went in the SC ...drove it for 3 days with coolant in the oil ..also did 3 oil changes ...to get it to a place I could work on it ...and picking up the parts I needed ... drain your oil filter and look for metal flakes ...I not so worrie about coolant in the oil ...as for ...coolant being trapped between piston and head [Hydraulic lock] and forcing the oil out of a bearing... burning or crushing the bearing or bending a rod ..been 20,000 klm .. since HG's on a motor with 230,000klms ..these are one strong motor ....if you have no coolant in your oil ...I'd say your laughing and swap out the gaskets ...get heads planed ...couple hundred bucks and you will be rolling again ..dave

XR7 Dave
01-07-2004, 10:38 AM
As mentioned above, it depends on how much water made it into the oil and how long you drove it that way. I caught my headgasket problem early before water got in to the oil. I have since replaced the headgaskets and continue to hammer on it pretty good. It has been about 50K miles and I still have great oil pressure. If you are really concerned you might take the time now to install a real oil pressure gauge, put in some new oil and see what kind of pressure you get when the motor warms up. Mine with 180K miles on it idles at 30psi hot and gets 65 over 2000 rpm. I consider this quite adequate.

On the other hand I pulled apart two other motors which had blown headgaskets (not driven by me so I don't know how hard they were on them) and both motors had nothing but copper on the bearings. :mad:

ThunderDave
01-08-2004, 07:42 AM
Well, the odometer had 197,000+ on it when I bought it and it has about 205,000 now. Other than this head gasket going, the motor has run fine with no other problems or noises. I haven't found any traces of coolant in the oil, so I hope the bottom half will be unharmed by this. I love the car, simply put and I'd like to keep it as long as I can afford to. I have a couple of small kids, so extra money for car repairs isn't always easy to come by.

Thanks for the input. Personally, I think it might be ok and run for a while longer with any major issues. My friend will just have to accept the fact that I'm not ready to get rid of the car.

David ;)

Billabong089
01-08-2004, 07:44 AM
it defiantly ISNT ok to run that car and you will risk serious damage if you continue to run it, so then you might get lucky and you'll need new bearings in no time...:rolleyes:

Doug Franklin
01-08-2004, 10:17 AM
There is so much work to pulling the heads why not do the whole thing? Yes it is a gamble, but one SC I bought had new HG and then an insert disapeared on a rod. So I got the car cheap. Just my opinion but I don't like doing things twice. Overhaul it.

MIKE 38sc
01-08-2004, 10:47 AM
I cant imagine an engine with that many miles on it that does'nt need new rod and main bearings. Every SC engine I've torn apart(or any other engine for that matter) with 1/2 the miles you have have had bearings worn into the copper shells.
Theres no way I would just put head gaskets on that engine.
These cars are getting up in age and most of them have hidden problems that start hitting you on a weekly basis just nickle and dimeing you to death and once it gets all your nickles and dimes it comes along and kicks you in the crotch by laying completely down on you. Gasoline engines have gotten alot better as far as the life of the engine but they still arent built to get into the mileage range that yours is at without some attention on your part.

Drnaline
01-08-2004, 12:44 PM
I agree, At least I would put rod bearings and I'd drop a few mains as well, to have a look see. The bearings will tell the story. You can also look at the cylinder walls from the bottom.
I've done lots of repairs and been pretty lucky. I'd try it. I had a 460 in a 70 F100 that had a bad knock and just replaced those two bearings on that journal and drove it for two years then sold it to my brother.
Just be sure not to scare the crank journal. I've done it with the block still in the car just dropping the pan.

quick35th
01-08-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by MIKE 38sc
I cant imagine an engine with that many miles on it that does'nt need new rod and main bearings. Every SC engine I've torn apart(or any other engine for that matter) with 1/2 the miles you have have had bearings worn into the copper shells.
Theres no way I would just put head gaskets on that engine.
These cars are getting up in age and most of them have hidden problems that start hitting you on a weekly basis just nickle and dimeing you to death and once it gets all your nickles and dimes it comes along and kicks you in the crotch by laying completely down on you. Gasoline engines have gotten alot better as far as the life of the engine but they still arent built to get into the mileage range that yours is at without some attention on your part.

I have 195K on my Cougar and it still runs strong with no signs of knocking or anything. I have no idea whether my head gaskets have been replaced before. I expect this engine to take me well past 200K and hopefuly it will get me threw the end of college about 2008.

Shane

-ps My 35th has 193K on it but sometime around 160-170K it had a rod knocking and the previous owner replaced all the bearings.

MIKE 38sc
01-09-2004, 12:40 AM
I'd be happy to post pics of 2 sets of rod and main bearings from 2 different SC motors 1 with 128,000 and one with 142,000 miles on them to show you whats in your engine if you would like for me to.
Neither of theses engines had any knocks or made any noises.
Truth is you wont hear a knock until the bearing is completey gone and the rod itself is hammering the crank journal and if you wait until you hear a knock you have already harmed the crankshaft. $$$$$$$$$

Billabong089
01-09-2004, 01:28 AM
post them!

Listen to this crap, my dad has a 93 tbird LX, and I own a 92 SC right, mine has 133K and my dads has 225,000 miles and get this the only repair on that damn thing has been the head gaskets, and that was like 7 years ago....tune up wise and oil is totally neglected, and I baby my car (2500k mile oil changes , transmission fluid changes, etcccccc... and guess who has spent more money lol... like tons more... ME....

I can go on how that car is neglected and abused and just keeps going and going, I know people say crap about these engines but let it be said besides the head gaskets, 225,000 miles with no other problems is impressive. I guess the supercharger really does make the big difference... oh well LX's are slow ;)

ThunderDave
01-09-2004, 06:32 AM
What to do and what I can afford to do right now are two different things. I'm stretching my budget to do the head gaskets. I wish I could go through the whole motor, but I can't right now. If that's a bad decision, then I guess I'll be paying for it later. I do appreciate all the suggestions, ideas, info and past experience stories.

If I'm wrong on this, I'll be back to admit it.

David

Doug Franklin
01-09-2004, 06:42 AM
You know I don't even think anyone here will tell you I told you so.

I wish you the best of luck.

MIKE 38sc
01-09-2004, 01:39 PM
I know I wont be telling you I told you so. I'm very sensative to your financial delema as I have been there myself and am experiancing hard times again right now.
When I give advice unless the person asking for advice tells me that money is NOT a problem I always advise them in a way that gets the job done properly and will be a lasting repair for the least amount of cash. I learned a long time ago that you dont save one penny if you dont do the job right the first time on an engine. There are many places on a car that you can cut corners on for little while and get away with it until you have better finances but an engine is not one of those places. The $35.00 you save by not replacing the rod bearings now can end up costing you well over $1,000 or more within 5 miles of driving that engine after replacing the HG's. I'll go get those pics of engine parts from a young mans SC that went down the path you're considering. I'll right back.

mannysc
01-09-2004, 03:50 PM
I did hgs on about four sc,s this yr and all are working great not one had water in oil and i swaped gaskets and sold cars the new owners are very happy one turns 13,s now for three months now and no problem .

as long as oil is not contaminated and water did not enter cylinder,
there should be no problems
but if water was in cylinder you let it go too long . and if water did the hydro lockup you need more than gaskets and bearings .

you need to check everything out from rods to crank to pistons for damage rings for breaks
water dont compress the other
things
have to take the abuse.

all the sc,s i had the leak was minimal and it never got bad just compression leaking into water pass .

but no water into oil or cylinders.


so there you have it as mike said spend the extra cash and be safe or take a calculated risk.

minor leak gaskets may do
water in cylinder then minimum bearings and gaskets and bolts,

mine blew a water to air ic and did major damage
rods bent pistons cracked and bearings hammered,

crank was ok but all rods had to be replaced and the one piston.

the engine is turning 500-600 rpms at idle but piston speed is like 3000 fps at its fastest angle,

of rod stroke ratio,

now introduce water to it and it lockes up solid 3000-
zero in a millianth of a second, all that mass moving and then having to stop instantly mere metal bends and warps.

like our bumpers around a pole.

ThunderDave
01-09-2004, 07:18 PM
I appreciate your honesty Mike. I think someone had posted that the rod bearings could be replaced with the engine in the car by dropping the oil pan. If the rod bearings cost no more than that, I can probably afford to go ahead and do them as well. does the engine need to need raised a little to get the pan off and out of the way? Thanks for everyones help. I'd be lost without all of you.

David

MIKE 38sc
01-09-2004, 07:27 PM
I'm having a problem with the pics right now, there too big and the site will not let me post them and as soon as I figure out how to take care of that I'll put them up.
Manny is right as long as coolant did'nt get into your oil. I've been lucky in that regard because every HG that has blown on my cars they have never blown in a way that lets water into the oil. Mine have always blown letting hot combustion gases into the water jacket, but other people havent been that lucky.

ThunderDave
01-09-2004, 11:36 PM
I have seen no signs that the oil and coolant mixed. The gasket blew beside the rear cylinder, just outside the ring around the cylinder, on the passenger side of the motor. I'd like to think that there was no further damage to the motor, other than the gasket blowing. I talked to a mechanic an he too said as long as the coolant didn't mix with oil, I should be ok doing the gaskets and the bottom half should be alright. I'm getting the heads done and using new Ford parts in the rebuild. Are the stock motorcraft plugs for that car as good as the autolite plats? The car is stock, other than the k&n filter and flowmaster muffs, so I'm not looking at as much horsepower as some of you are in your motors.

:(

Maybe one day I'll be able to mod it some, right now I just want to get it running again.

David

MIKE 38sc
01-10-2004, 12:23 AM
Heres the bearings from a 91 with 143,000 miles on them. Top row for rods and bottom row for mains.

MIKE 38sc
01-10-2004, 12:29 AM
This is what happened 4 blocks after the engine started making a ticking sound like a lifter and in that 4 blocks it went from a ticking lifter sound and then a thock thock sound then to this.

turbospeed
01-10-2004, 03:54 AM
hey mike can you give a aprox cost of a stock rebuild

this is what im thinking of doing (heads gaskets are ok) but im thinking of rebuilding before anything fails :
rings bearings (wich ones??) arp head studs and of course every gasket in the engine aluminium flywheel and getting the whole rotating assembly balanced ( crank flywheel and balancer)

anything else you reccomend? thnaks for your advice

MIKE 38sc
01-10-2004, 01:55 PM
Well the cost varies, it just depends on what you end up paying for the parts and machine work. Prices seem to vary depending on where you are located in the world. Here are some examples.
1. Piston rings $47.00-$165.00 Depends on brand and style of rings.
2. Rod bearings $35.00-????? I use Clevite 77's they were about $35.00
3. Main bearings $35.00-????? Again I used Clevite 77's at about $35.00
4. Full gasket sets are about $200.00 and I use the Felpro's
5. Oil pump $65.00-???? I used a 95 SC pump from Ford, it cost me $65.00
6. Timing cover $236.00 Thats what the Ford cover cost me.
7. Timing gears and chain I gave about $45.00 for the setup from Ford.
8. Lifters I gave $9.57 each for from Ford.
9. Pushrods $100.00 but I bought the Comp Cams pushrods and you can get the stockers for alot less than these but I dont know there exact price.
10. Valve springs cost about $40.00 from Ford but I used Comp springs and cost me $57.00
I dont use ARP studs so I dont know what they can be bought for.
Then you have all the machine work and again those prices seem to swing wildly depending on your location.
I spent about $300-$350 on my block but I had alot of work done to it. I've seen guy's post prices higher than what I paid to have the same work done.
Just make you up a parts list and start shopping around. Theres some good prices out there but you will have to look for them.
Same thing with the machinist, just shop around because not everybody wants $2000.00 for a headjob but of course thats not a stock headjob.

pablon2
02-25-2005, 01:55 PM
Mannysc, I store my car in the winter and have notcied coolant dripping on the floor and also coolant in my oil. My mechanic said I have a leaky timing cover gasket. Could this cause coolant to get into the oil? I have some coolant in there when i change it in the spring. I imagine running it for 30 mins 1x a month probably is doing more harm than good if I have a small amount of coolant in the oil. I just put on headers and didn't see sign of leaky headgaskets. I plan on having the timing cover gasket replaced this spring. I actually already have the FelPro one here to replace the OEM with.


I did hgs on about four sc,s this yr and all are working great not one had water in oil and i swaped gaskets and sold cars the new owners are very happy one turns 13,s now for three months now and no problem .

as long as oil is not contaminated and water did not enter cylinder,
there should be no problems
but if water was in cylinder you let it go too long . and if water did the hydro lockup you need more than gaskets and bearings .

you need to check everything out from rods to crank to pistons for damage rings for breaks
water dont compress the other
things
have to take the abuse.

all the sc,s i had the leak was minimal and it never got bad just compression leaking into water pass .

but no water into oil or cylinders.


so there you have it as mike said spend the extra cash and be safe or take a calculated risk.

minor leak gaskets may do
water in cylinder then minimum bearings and gaskets and bolts,

mine blew a water to air ic and did major damage
rods bent pistons cracked and bearings hammered,

crank was ok but all rods had to be replaced and the one piston.

the engine is turning 500-600 rpms at idle but piston speed is like 3000 fps at its fastest angle,

of rod stroke ratio,

now introduce water to it and it lockes up solid 3000-
zero in a millianth of a second, all that mass moving and then having to stop instantly mere metal bends and warps.

like our bumpers around a pole.

mannysc
02-25-2005, 06:58 PM
here is the thing with water in oil and a long sitting time , water and oil dont mix well,

if the leak is when engine is run alot it will evaporate,

if car sits and you start it up the water is seperate from the oil water is heavyier than oil so oil floats water is the only thing that the oil pump will have to pump at startup.

you could try to crack open the oil drain plug just enuff to drain water out.then tighten it back up and start engine up.

ThunderDave
02-25-2005, 07:35 PM
I can't believe y'all brought this thread back to life. :p
By the way, my motor is still running good more than a year after doing the HGs. I'm lucky to be this lucky. :) I appreciate everyones help while I was working on it. Believe me, there were times I was saying to myself while I was doing the work, "why am I putting myself through this?". It was all worth it. Working on it in the dark, in the rain, in the cold, laying on the cold hard and wet ground. Every bit of it. I'm lucky to be part of such a great car club too.

MIKE 38sc
02-26-2005, 02:39 AM
Well I'm glad you came back and reported how its going. Thats great news and you are one lucky so in so. LOL!!!! :p I would'nt have gotten away with that in a 1000 years. LOL!!!! :)