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M90TAURUS
01-16-2004, 03:24 PM
I MIGHT be able to get cams for 3.8 that are not regrinds, meaning that you could basically get any grind you want. Its not for sure, but how many of you would be interested? Only bad news is that they might run $275-300, but thats with shipping.

Jason Wild
01-16-2004, 03:55 PM
Thats not two bad but I'm not sure what a regrind goes for.
Let use know what you find out.

Randy N Connie
01-16-2004, 05:44 PM
I may be interrested.If they will grind to my spec.that I want.

Randy

MIKE 38sc
01-16-2004, 06:06 PM
Randy you are a machinist and I would think that you could get you some steel and make your own steel billet blank to be sent to a cam grinder and have anything you want ground out of it.
What do you think?

Randy N Connie
01-16-2004, 06:58 PM
Mike 38 I could do that ,and just machine my own.But then I would need to

1.BUY 4030 steel
2 machine the shaft
3 cut for the gear
4 take it to my neighbor have it ruf ground to about .050 of what I want.
5 heat treat
6 make a master for the cam grinding machine.(looks just like a cam lobe but about 5inches tall.
7 take it back to chuck have it ground to my spec,from the master
8 maybe another heat treat.Or cryogenic treatment

I can not make one cam for this price.

RANDY

MIKE 38sc
01-16-2004, 07:25 PM
You're right Randy but because you have skills that most dont have you could do it easier and cheaper than anyone else could do. But it would take alot of time on your end of the job and your time should be worth something.
My point is that no one should get the idea that NEW cams will be as low in price as the regrinds or even close. Even if you had the skills and was willing to get nothing more than the satisfaction of knowing you made the cam blank for yourself for your time you still could'nt do it for less than $300.00.
Do I think someone may be willing to make one for that price?
Maybe....but I think it may end up alittle higher in price before its all said and done. I know things and oportunities like this are available out there because I myself found that elusive rad core that did'nt exist, so I do beleive one can or will be made. The bottom line is What will it end up costing?

Randy N Connie
01-16-2004, 07:50 PM
Well it would be nice to have a cam with more lift and be able to change
some of the timing with a blank.I don't know what the max lift you can
get with a regrind .500 ? If you wanted to go drag racing I would want to start
with about a .650 lift.

Randy

MIKE 38sc
01-16-2004, 08:00 PM
I dont really know what the max lift would be that you can get with a regrind. But I have seen some info on some regrinds (Dr Freds comes to mind) that were somewhere around 0.525" lift.
There may be room for more I dont know, and even then your still limited as to how much the lobes posistion moves.
Fresh Billet would be better because then ALL options are open then. But man would it cost!

Jason Wild
01-16-2004, 10:56 PM
I'm sure we can get new cams but then agan that cost money. after all some one had blanks for ford to use

XR7 Dave
01-16-2004, 11:16 PM
The stock core has been ground to as much as .600" lift.

Jason Wild
01-16-2004, 11:24 PM
well if you can get 600 lift on a stock core then there might be no need for a new cam core.

M90TAURUS
01-17-2004, 01:16 PM
The cam I am talking about is a billet cam, I met some guys who are doing alot of 3.8 work (mostly on stangs) but they said they could do it for around $275-300. Ill try to get a hold of them and get more details. I should have more info on monday or tuesday.

MIKE 38sc
01-17-2004, 02:15 PM
Thats pretty cool, if this can be done for that price it would open up a good affordable alternative to regrinds.:)

nanatothesixth
01-17-2004, 03:03 PM
i would be interested in a new! cam. thanks

68COUGAR
01-17-2004, 03:59 PM
Would the new cams be able to utilize the OEM pushrods?

68COUGAR

XR7 Dave
01-17-2004, 09:56 PM
I believe that is one of the points in doing a new cam. It would be ground on the stock base circle. A billet core would allow more aggressive ramp profiles and the possibility of using a solid roller cam profile!!!

68COUGAR
01-17-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by XR7 Dave
It would be ground on the stock base circle. A billet core would allow more aggressive ramp profiles.
Anytime you talk about hyd. cams, the entire valve train & oil pump must be considered.

Would more agressive ramps, requre more robust roller lifters? What about bleed down? A more agressive hyd. roller cam can be used, if you use lifters with a high bleed down rate.

Oil pressure must also be considered. Does the late model oil pump provide more pressure? What IS our oil pressure? The old school rule of thumb is, 10 psi per 1000 rpm. Dunno if that applies to modern engines.

Finally, something worth talking about!!!!!!!!

68COUGAR

68COUGAR
01-18-2004, 12:09 AM
I've heard Adams Stieg reground cam. It's something over .650 lift @ 296 duration. That's probably at .050 lift, but not sure.

Dunno what the ramp speed is, but it Certainly doesn't sound streetable. It mellows out around 1200.

I'm sure it's Way More cam than he can use!

68COUGAR

BT Motorsports
01-18-2004, 02:39 AM
Attached below is a pic of the cam I just removed from my engine a few weeks ago with less than 8000 miles on it. It was a regrind by crane using a 89 5 speed cam. Lift was around .600". I presently am looking for a billet cam that can be ground to my specs.

http://www.BlueTongueMotorsports.com/misc/SCFlakedCamshaft/FlakedCamsshaft7.jpg
Sorry about the image size, my digicam resolution sucks so I didnt shrink the pic down, just cropped it a bit. As you can see, the lobe is missing material roughly the size of your fingernail. There were a few like this.

Paul:mad:

XR7 Dave
01-18-2004, 03:27 AM
A more aggressive cam profile does not require more oil pressure. The lifters are filled with oil when the valves are closed and it is not oil pressure which keeps them full when the valve is open. Our lifters are standard SBF fare and therefore we should have no problems with any lift profile available for a SBF. Solid rollers like I would like to see allow much faster ramps which means more effective valve duration and lift with less overlap. Oh ya, and much lighter lifters. ;)

68COUGAR
01-18-2004, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by XR7 Dave
A more aggressive cam profile does not require more oil pressure. The lifters are filled with oil when the valves are closed and it is not oil pressure which keeps them full when the valve is open.
Old School BB FE here! The fill cycle of the lifter is (in part) determined by the width of the channel next to the oil port. A narrow channel, allows less time for the lifter to fill with pressure from the oil pump. A wider channel, more time to fill the lifter with oil pressure.

On the other hand, the valve spring is Opposing the oil pressure, as the the lifter is being pressurized.

Sooooo, with a juice cam, you need to run the Minimum valve spring pressure, required, for the MAX RPM you intend to operate at.

Now if you throw "Hi-Bleed-Down" lifters into the equation..........Everything must be reevaluated!

So many variables............Lets talk!

68COUGAR

XxSlowpokexX
01-18-2004, 04:20 PM
All I have to say is stock lifters (SBF ) will be just fine;O)

M90TAURUS
01-21-2004, 09:44 AM
I have good news... Things are looking good for being able to get the billet custom ground cams. Bad news...I won't know for maybe another day. Sorry for keeping you all waiting, but I'm doing my best and I'm gonna call again today.

BlackbirdSC
01-21-2004, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by 68COUGAR


Sooooo, with a juice cam, you need to run the Minimum valve spring pressure, required, for the MAX RPM you intend to operate at.

Now if you throw "Hi-Bleed-Down" lifters into the equation..........Everything must be reevaluated!

So many variables............Lets talk!

68COUGAR

High seat pressure.. low open pressure. Get the seat pressure up around 140-150 on a hyd roller and keep open pressure under 350. Anything more than that's wasting time and effort to get the springs in there.


Some very reputable companys/places/people outside of the SC world have found VERY significant gains by raising seat pressure and lowering open pressures.

On a blown motor, seat pressure is even more important because there's 10-20 psi trying to blow the intake valve open. So a blown motor needs 10-20 psi (or more depending on boost) more than a NA motor of the same intended operating range.

M90TAURUS
01-21-2004, 04:26 PM
I talked to the guy today and he gave me a final price of $340. I know thats more than I originally said, but the guy that quoted me the first time was "Just estimating." The $340 is shipped to your door and ready to slip in to your motor. If you are intersted contact me though this post. If you want a cam, I need YOUR specs because this is goin to be YOUR cam. Thanks for your time everyone. Hope your still interested.

David Neibert
01-21-2004, 05:05 PM
Paul,

That picture of your cam is a little disturbing, especially since I've got the same one in my engine. I'm now wishing I would have pulled my lifters and looked at the cam lobes when I had the heads off a few months ago.

Have you determined why it happened ? BTW, what ratio rockers were you using ?

David

XxSlowpokexX
01-22-2004, 01:04 AM
Dave Paul had 1.7 rockers..Sometimes when they cut the cam they cut through the hardness and well..There ya go

BT Motorsports
01-22-2004, 01:12 AM
Actually, I run 1.73 non adjustables. I sent the cam to Crane for inspection and the areas that flaked as well as the same location of the non flaked lobes had a hardness of 32-34, the rest of the cam was in the mid 70s like it should have been. I was told AFTER the inspection that the cam should never been ground to that spec because it would get into the hardness to deep leaving an unstable surface. I inquired if spring pressure could have caused it and was assured that it was not in any way related to this failure.
Of course, they also told me there is no warranty or guarentee on regrinds even though they shouldnt have reground that spec to begin with so Im out the cost of the grind. They wouldn't even work with me on the $525 billet cam they offer:mad:

M90TAURUS, shoot me over some details as I am interested in what your source has to offer. Specifically, I want to know about the material they are using, heat treating process, warranty etc. Also, what is the lead time on these? How will the orders be processed, through you or with the company directly (I presume it is a company, not an individual)?

Paul

M90TAURUS
01-22-2004, 10:03 AM
Paul, So far all I know is that the cams are billet and I'm pretty sure the lead time isn't very long. I will find out the rest of the details you need. It is through a high performance shop in Dearborn. I met the machinist that will do it through my V6 Mustang friend. The 2 guys ( mangager and machinist )are going to do it without the owner really knowing, so that they don't have to charge $400+ which is why they asked me to try to find a decent number of people who wanted them, so it would be worth the risk. V6 unity :)

M90TAURUS
01-23-2004, 04:15 PM
OK, I got teh details. They cam is a heat-treated billet steel camshaft. The lead time is about 1-2 weeks, plus the time to ship. The sooner you get in the sooner you recieve your cam. They have a 30 day waranty against machining defects. There really arent very good warrantys because it is hi performance stuff, and they know it will be beat up. But they know there stuff isnt crap, so if there is defect from the shop, or camshaftr damage (i.e. Breaking in half or chipping lobes like pauls,) they will replace it free of charge. Hope I answered all of your questions.

MIKE 38sc
01-23-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by M90TAURUS
I talked to the guy today and he gave me a final price of $340. I know thats more than I originally said, but the guy that quoted me the first time was "Just estimating." The $340 is shipped to your door and ready to slip in to your motor. If you are intersted contact me though this post. If you want a cam, I need YOUR specs because this is goin to be YOUR cam. Thanks for your time everyone. Hope your still interested.
Honestly I thought it would be more than that. Still thats a pretty good price for a custom billet cam!

BT Motorsports
01-23-2004, 04:29 PM
M90TAURUS, no offense, but heat treated billet steel really doesnt tell me much. What I need to know to make a purchase like this is the actual material grade and heat treat # they are using as well as the depth of hardness they obtain. My cam failure is something I do not want to repeat and if I am going to drop over 2x more than the cost of a regrind, I need to be comfortable that it will hold together. Lastly, who do we pay and by what method?

Paul

M90TAURUS
01-23-2004, 06:38 PM
Paul,
Sorry again, I'll have to call hopefully just this last time, and find out ALL the details. I didn't know you wanted that much detail, but I understand. You pay me and then I give the money to the guys at the shop. I hope that doesn't sound too shady or anything, but it is totally legitamant, besides them doing it under the bosses nose. I would take check or money order because thats all I know how to do; but if someone can explain to me how to use paypal or a more secure way I'm all for it. Thanks for your time and I'll get back to ASAP.

M90TAURUS
01-26-2004, 07:12 PM
He said he didn't know the exact material number. He also said that the heat treating number was between 58 and 60 on the rockwell or rockford scale. I dont remeber the exact name of the scale. He also said that after grinding teh thickness of the heat treat is between .125 and .150 in. He said that he would try to get a hold of someone at the place where they get the cores form, but he said it's a 50/50 chance that he will get an answer. I dont know why that is but I hope that information makes sense to you because its got me a little confused.

BT Motorsports
01-27-2004, 01:40 AM
Thanks, makes absolute sense to me. Couple things I need to point out here. If the hardness is between 58 and 60, its pretty light, should be up around high 60s when the finished product is measured. The thickness of heat treat sounds on the money though the process used is what determines that. The material grade is very important because if its to high, it will be very brittle and will not react well to the heat treat. If it has a low tensile strength, it will offer to much deflection if used in a solid lifter environment. Just some food for thought.

Paul

P.S. Have they mentioned anything about a bronze cam gear? That will be necessary in a billet cam environment and I do not know if one is available for the 3.8 or not.

M90TAURUS
01-27-2004, 01:06 PM
No mention of bronze cam gear but I have to pick my block up from the machine shop in a couple days, so I'll grill them somemore, lol. Is anyone still interested in the cams at all?

XxSlowpokexX
01-27-2004, 07:25 PM
I might be interested...And it be a cold day in hell before I ever use another bronze gear:O) ..Made that mistake years ago when someone convinced me I needed one with my billet cam....I'lltake one worn stock gear thanks!