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suutari
01-27-2004, 04:23 PM
>>the special seals that are located in the cartridge behind the bearings, where the rotor shafts would enter the case<<
These appear to be a special part that prevent the flow of supercharger fluid from the cartridge into the case, as well as the flow of compressed charge air (boost) from the case into the cartridge.<<

Hi!
If someone knows what type of seals these are and can inform me that would be nice?(saw one thread that said they would be neoprene? seals?) I just took teh first rotor/gear apart and found out that itīs pretty press fit..(have to warm the gear when putting it together too)What is the best way to get the rotor clearances right when putting it together and how to do it..since the splines in the rotor shaft are just tiny ones that have been used to get it tight at first plase..not to align the shaft? I can put it together but itīs better if someone could give me some advise..since I live far away from any rebuilding service facility. I will take some pictures tomorrow and post them here so everyone can see them. The bearings are cased too as some of you might know but that should not be the problem...(Iīll take them apart tomorrow)If right size seals can not be found I think itīs fairly easy to lathe the rotor shaft(21.80mm) and bearing seat to proper dimensions for differend seal with better availibility...
I hope someone with knowledge of this would inform me A.S.A.P. so we could save one SC again :). Mine was leaking oil to intake
and the nose seal was gone too..but rotors are fine as everything else too..
+any other clearance/blueprint info of the supercharger is welcome..what is the minimium clearance between case and rotors that it would still work as it should with normal RPM range.

I have searched all the threads and found no other info of the rotor/gear thingie or proper clearances So if you know something please share your aknowledge. Iīm willing to share mine after this rebuild..we get out of this mystic rebuild ones and for all. Sorry if it takes someone out of business tho..but how many has press of their own...really. So the loss of customers is probably not an issue here. It will reguire special tools always.

Cheers, Sami from Finland

Ripper
01-27-2004, 05:19 PM
Im getting ready to rebuild mine also. I dont pay anyone to work on my stuff anyway so no loss to them.

CrazyCouper
01-27-2004, 06:32 PM
After long hours of research, I've found that these seals aren't commercially available.
You've probably found that Magnum
wants you to send the unit in for refurb and to charge you
big $$...sorry but that's the way they play this game!
You can have them fabricated by a custom seal maker but plan
on spending about 1000 bucks for them to tool up and then
make you 2 seals! If you haven't noticed they are different sizes!
sooo...that means 2 different sets of tooling...these seals are
unique, the shaft diameter is not common, so you can't just buy
any old grease seal and install. The temp rating is of concern, as
it the design! The solution I've come up with
is to make my own, yes, I KNOW this is crazy, but this is what
I'm going to do....I've already got the lathe and a couple prototypes started.
If I'm successful (and I don't see why I won't be) If you want a set, I'm sure we can work something out!
Meantime, If you find a better solution, Id be curious to find out
what that is! This whole scenario has been a HUGE source of
frustration, and the 'powers that be' at the manufacturer sure
have a captive audience on this market!
By the way the rotor
clearances are around .004"
Cheers,
Bill

suutari
01-27-2004, 07:29 PM
thanks for the info so far :)...Yep..thatīs the way things go now days. But I will search alternative seal near the same dimensions(if the outside dimension is the same that is good..I still have the other rotor shaft in cartridge..) The rotor shafts can be lathed down to 21mm at least without any concern about strenght..since the bearing part of the shaft is as low as 17mm( and some where around even lower acting as a fuse). Gears can be locked back together and clearances met by using something between the rotors during installation. Taking in grand of the slack between the gears..hmm..maybe there is our answer ;). Plus the sealing base can be opened up a little. Just have to search some gatalogs for two way pressure seals for high temps..even using bearings with two/one way pressure shields
might work as part of the solution (should be okay at least keeping the oil out of the rotor side ;) )..since I have acces to a whole machine shop and Iīm doing mechanical engineering major that should not be a problem. I will too keep everybody updated about this thing. Looking into porting and coating the rotors as well during this rebuild process..Hope we find a way to sort out these problems ;)

More info welcome..nice to hear what others have allready done so we get this sorted as quickly as possible.

cheers, Sami

cudaz101
01-28-2004, 07:01 AM
I thought Wynne Carter "Tbird88" sold rebuild kits for the M90's...You may wana ask him about it...He is VERY busy right now so it may take awhile for him to get back to you...I believe that Ryan Harris is knowledgable on this as well...

Brad

CrazyCouper
01-28-2004, 08:33 AM
FYI,
Wynn, otherwise known as tbird88, does sell kits.
These are for rebuilding the snout not the rotor pack,
unfortunately. He's also sells and engineers other cool
stuff...like poly bushings for the rear differential...
one other thing, before you go machining on those
shafts, you might want to verify that they aren't surfaced
hardened at the seal journal.
Cheers,
Bill from TX

suutari
01-28-2004, 09:42 AM
You have good point there :)...I donīt want to screw that up if not necessary. it might be possible to coat it with nitrate etc. after machining tho. Seems the shaft size at seals is 21.85mm quite close to 22mm. Other seal has dimensions 21.85x33.41x7mm and other is 21.85x34.95x7 just quick measurements..If I can find something for that saft size the outer diameter can be machined to at least 35-36mm(other one is allready 35) or spacer made to down size the hole. Seal can be as much as 10mm deep too. Other thing is how to lock up the bearings again because the lip that holds them in place does in fact take care of the rotor axial movement. Bearings are standard size 6203. Originals are made by NSK and they are special type that have marking X28 at inner ring. Maybe C3 clearance would be okay ;). They have somekind of plastic strips at outer ring and it has something to do with shattering or preventing movement/wear in the bearings/bearing cases. Have to check if someone knows exactly why it has the stripes.There isnīt much room to make anything to bearing cases (threads/lock groove). High temperatures are not that good for clueing the bearings eather so I might do lock rings for the bearings that bolt up with small bolts to the case. This thing is really interesting ;)..heh. they did not intend it to be dismantled for sure. Also Iīm thinking other bearing alternatives too with high rpm range..Gears should be fairly easy to fit back tho with heating/freezing the parts :). Iīll post some pictures today when I get home. No matter what I have to change, it is going to be running again ;)....and hopefully ported and with better performance too. Thoī I wouldnīt try to do this with hammer in the garage :rolleyes: The snout is peace of cake compared to this baby...

PS: the end bearings on the case are INA FC65477 if someone is interested on those...You can with other bearings there too with the same size if the rpm and heat ratings go hand in hand...and the cartridge bearings were not hard to remove at all..and you donīt need to machine the lip away. Just press them out and it takes only 500kg or so to pop emīout...;). The lip is gone, but there is no way to save it if you wanīt to change the cartridge bearings..

David Neibert
01-28-2004, 10:10 AM
The Magnum Powers rebuild does not include the bearings and seal in the rotor cartridge. From what I understand, the only place those bearings are available is Magnuson the Eaton distributor and they won't sell them.

To fix my leaking seals I just bought a low mileage used rotor cartridge from a late model SC blower that had a little teflon flaking off for around $100. I would suggest you consider doing the same.

David

suutari
01-28-2004, 10:18 AM
I think they chance the rotor cartridge as whole if necessary?..but since Iīm doing a lot of other stuff too for the blower and have acces to necessary tooling..Why not. Plus I have time too. Easyer would be to buy new one. This one Will be rebuildable when I finish it and the same time Iīm learning new things. By no other means it is not the way to go if it werenīt just for fun..:rolleyes:

CrazyCouper
01-28-2004, 11:42 AM
I have researched the bearings and have sourced them, all
I need is the cash!!! All this info is at home, so when I can
I'll post the list on this thread....can't remember all the specifics
off the top of my head..lol...they're aircraft turbine grade,
spec 5 rating...I'd planned on using loctite, the strongest stuff I
can find, to lock the bearings in place. When I disassembled
the press seemed to work quite well, and I match marked
everything before going nuts...
but I'm there with you on learning and
having fun rebuilding. Not the cheapest way to go
but at least it will be done the way YOU want!!
Getting a used blower is wise, especially if you want
to drive the car while working on the other.
gotta go...
Bill

MIKE 38sc
01-28-2004, 03:26 PM
What about making a billet rotor pack plate to fit bearings and seals that you can get with the right ID sizes but maybe there OD's are either larger or smaller than the Eaton pieces?

Mike8675309
01-28-2004, 03:42 PM
Rotor Bearings are available. Tbird88 (wynn) has them available but you can find them yourself as well.

http://www.datarecall.net/~tbird88/index/parts/bearings0065.jpg

http://www.datarecall.net/~tbird88/index/parts/4sale1.htm

MIKE 38sc
01-28-2004, 03:50 PM
Those are the rear rotor needle bearings which are easy to get Mike. The problem as has been said is finding bearings and seals that go into the front of the rotor pack in the rotor pack plate.

suutari
01-28-2004, 03:58 PM
I just looked into it and it would be very easy to make new cartridge from billet with CNC..not too hard, but before that I all ready sourced some seals (ptfe,viton etc.) That are maybe enough close and can take the challence..and by the way inch sizes for original seals are
axle shaft: 55/64
outside blue: 1"5/16
outside red: 1"3/8
deph: 17/64 (this can be larger too..)

Do a ww.Google.com search with high performance seals..dual lip,viton etc..
American high performance seals should have some..just like the originals. They had their E-mail full so could not ask about them today :(

As for the bearings..you wonīt probably need that good bearings..bearings that are rated beyond 14 000rpm are not too expensive and come in standard case( maybe 5-7$ each). I found some that are rated to 22 000 and so on...price is not concern of these. How expensive are the original bearings? are they exactly
the same ones :)?

Using the strongest bearing clue with high temp ratings is what Iīm going to use probably too when I have time to ask around the specs...or then make the locker rings that will bolt on with small screws to the support pilars(have to calculate some stuff before this ;)...)

Happy to see someone else has the same project ;)..nice!
Cheers, Sami

MIKE 38sc
01-28-2004, 04:13 PM
Sami you have a PM.:)

suutari
01-28-2004, 04:57 PM
her are some pics :)

http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0033.JPG
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0018.JPG
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0021.JPG
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0022.JPG
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0023.JPG
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0024.JPG
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0025.JPG
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0029.JPG
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0030.JPG
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0031.JPG
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/PICT0032.JPG

suutari
01-28-2004, 05:06 PM
Plus here you can find reference chart for other bearings manufacturers and what to the numbers etc. tell you :D!

http://www.nsk-corp.com/page.asp?ID=255

Secret of the x28 reveiled...now we still have to find those seals or similar products that work for this aplication. Itīs not rocket science after all ;)...or actually it is..heh.

http://www.thomasregisterdirectory.com/seals/rotary_shaft_seals_0070051_1.html

Plus there is some info recarding the seals...if someone is interested.

MIKE 38sc
01-28-2004, 05:19 PM
Sami thanks for posting this info it could'nt have come at a better time. I was getting ready to tear my rotor pack apart and try to figure it out myself but the info you are providing has now put me ahead of the game. THANKS!:) :cool:

CrazyCouper
01-28-2004, 05:31 PM
are ya'll actually proposing that
machining the rotor plate is easier than fabricating
the seals? If you could explain a little further I'd
appreciate it!
when considering bearing choice
please note that they should be spec 5 and
you need them to handle at least 400 degrees F
and they need to be temp rated.
I think the goal here is to end up with an upgraded rotor pack,
not something thrown together...
Make sure the seal design is the same, if you install a seal with
a different design, this could spell trouble.
A non-pressurized single lip grease seal won't work properly.
There is also the issue of two different sizes for these seals...
any guesses to why they designed it this way??
My guess is that it has something to do with the harmonics
generated when those baby's are spinning at 14K+ and there
could be a fundamental frequency that vibrates and
eventually cracks that rotor plate! High frequency stress is
powerful stuff, (opera singer shattering the glass)...
just my two cents.
cheers,
bill

suutari
01-28-2004, 06:08 PM
http://www.seals.saint-gobain.com/media/documents/S0000000000000001018/OmniLip%20Catalog_Seals_app.pdf

What do you think about these dual lip ptfe seals?(havenīt converted that speed to m/s still so.. ;))
I donīt really believe that the reason for different size hole would be harmonics..they are in differend phase after all and should be balanced pretty good + Itīs not that heavily engineered unit it would have been easyer to make it more robust and use different size/style bearings I think...Iīm just building it for my self and someone can do it other wise if they want to..but why the heck put some top end stuff there that will last forever and cost heck of a lot more than stuff that does the same job for fraction of the cost? Then I probably should do the case from titanium and design my own rotors etc. from carbonfibre and so on..I just want the seals to hold and the thing to work like it should. Plus Iīm not going to spin it above 15 000rpm:s ;)...

Question about machining new rotor plate might get answers when you look at the pictures..it would be pretty easy to draw pictures and machine it from solid block with CNC machine since there are not that many functional measurements that are important. I can even acces to computer measurement device so it really is not that hard to blue print the old peace and draw new one that is even more robust with Ideas/CAD/katya/Solid works etc ;).

If you have any succestions about seals etc. all are welcome :). If I find the original bearings and they are not something like 200$ per piece Iīm using them for sure..if some bearings that are rated the same rpm range and heat resistance values but are 10$ piece Iīm going to use them...

MIKE 38sc
01-28-2004, 06:19 PM
I agree with you Sami. I think the reasons for alot of the things in the Eaton blowers were to make them propriotory more than anything else. Hell Eaton wont even tell you what kind of oil they put in the blowers!

CrazyCouper
01-28-2004, 06:30 PM
yes, of course it's proprietary,
sorry, the bearing rating is APEC 5, not spec 5.
that link looks good, can they supply in the correct sizes?
Bill

darriantbird
01-28-2004, 08:36 PM
I called every bearing and seal manufacturer there is and all I could come up with is their name they are called TEFLON COATED DUAL RADIAL LIP SEAL only way to get them is to special order about 5,000 in a lot to get them to make them for you .the only other manufacturer that has them is Magnuson products i cali who wants 1000+ to rebuild the blower will not sell the seals!

J57ltr
01-28-2004, 09:01 PM
As bearing size increases the speed rating goes down, so finding a 14K rpm bearing the size needed is a Whole lot more than 5 bones. You will probably end up spending about $30-$70 a bearing.

I am not sure if you noticed but there is a lip that is pushed over the bearing to keep them in place. You will need a way to hold the bearing in place once you remove it.

The seals are available try a company like Applied Ind. Tech. They are a bearing and drive component house. They might just blow you off, it took a while (we have an account with them) before I finally got the numbers but I haven't seen them since I wrote them down.

Check the rotor pack plate and make sure that it is not warped. One of the guys on the board came by to get some info from me and I noticed that his plate was bent from pressing the rotors out. When I checked the one that I did it was bent as well. I braced it very well (or as well as possible with the 1-1/4" plates I had) and it took about 3K psi to pop them loose. If I do another one I will probably cut up an old case and snout and then bolt the SC back together. Then press it out.

How did you keep the gears and rotors indexed to one and other? The knurl that is on the rotors isn't really enough to realign them again.

I wrote some info that is now on the members only section. I think it's in the Misc section.

Jeff

suutari
01-29-2004, 10:52 AM
http://www.zerodrag.com/technologya.asp

"ABEC is an allowable tolerance for ring dimensions in guidelines made by the ABMA (American Bearing Manufacturers Association). "

So, I living here in europe I donīt want to get into that..;). Just kiddin`. Thing is that there is many different standards/ways to mark the bearings on the industry and manufacturers. If the bearing manufacturer says your bearing can handle 16000rpm+200`C peak temp. Thatīs fine by me..no matter if it is abec 5(mainly used to sell more roller skate bearings heh.. ;) )or what ever like C3 from SKF etc...Tighter clearances are not good on places where is exess amount of heat because expansion and possible failure..so You need to consider at least the temperature range, RPM and load carrying capacities...and machine dynamics and vibrations..Put Iīm not here making conversations of machine engineering put putting together one eaton blower, everybody can do what they want with their blowers :)..if you read past mails you can see that Iīve taken the bearing securing in to account...It actually is pretty ****** part where the bearings lay. There is not much stress or other wise it would have been made stronger so Iīm not going into speculating vibrations or acoustic stresses. Only thing you can do with them is to mess around with rpm:s, more robust construction and weights..and the affect of different size seal seat is minimal or not affecting in this application.

Actually came in mind that chainsaws have pretty nice seals in crankcase..only thing is the lubrication for the outer lip. Teflon seals are better for sure.

suutari
01-29-2004, 11:01 AM
about the markings..I did good marks to shafts and gears so I can get them together close to the same way. The clearances have to be matched with the other gear. I will use "jig" between the rotors and secure them to necessary clearances before putting the other gear back to itīs place. Oven+freeze ;). Then check the clearances that they are okay when the rotors are in the case. Even if you have warpage in your case it doesnīt matter if it is only little..can you count how much pressure you can do with those bolts you have there on the case? plus, are you sure it wasnīt allready bent because the thermal stresses ;)...it might just "bent" when un bolting it..If itīs something like 0.1mm just bolt it back and donīt worry about it that much. It will straighten out when you put the bolts to right torgue. Use same torgue what they give for aluminium threads and that size bolt and youīll be fine.

PS:thanks for every bit of information for all..more welcome at any time :)

suutari
01-29-2004, 11:54 AM
http://www.pistoncoating.cc/process_info.html
http://www.techlinecoatings.com/introduction.html
for coating the rotors or something similar?

MIKE 38sc
01-29-2004, 03:26 PM
I've used Techline coatings for a few years now Sami and have had real good success with them, but they dont really have anything I would coat my rotors with. However it may be a good idea to coat the housing with there thermal disspersant coating so the blower case would run cooler and keep the case to rotor clearance more constant.
I've heard of some guy's coating the rotors with powder coat to tighten rotor clearance but I dont know if or how well thats worked out.

Rich Thomson
01-29-2004, 04:41 PM
Not that it will help anyone but here is reproduction of the origional Magnuson Products brochure.

Magnuson Brochure (http://www.mn12performance.com/magnuson/magnuson.htm)

Many years ago I visited Magnuson Products in CA and watch them rebuild two blowers. The seals I remember they got directly from Eaton as well as all the parts to rebuild the blowers.

Rich

J57ltr
01-30-2004, 12:50 AM
Here is some info from when I forst removed the rotors a few years ago.

I have about 6 superchargers right now and none of the others are bent (about .5mm) like the one that is taken apart. I can't measure it on the assembled ones because the rotors are in the way.

I work with bearings and spec out a lot of them and have access to a lot of info from the manufactures, but I still think you are going to need a ABEC 5 (or equiv.) to get the speed you are looking for. Maybe Europe is different, but I still think you will end up spending about $70 us per bearing.

http://pub29.ezboard.com/fthunderbirdscenthusiastclubfrm8.showMessage?topic ID=682.topic

Jeff

livn
01-30-2004, 12:58 AM
Suutari, do you know the original manufacturer part #s for the bearings/seals that you are looking for? Also, those gray stripes on the outer race of the bearings help keep the outer race seated properly, i believe the stripes are some kind of teflon but i could be wrong.

And Dave your right, magnuson does has priority of all NSK bearings used in the eaton superchargers and no they will not sell them to you. Take the NSK 6204C3X28 and 6203 (the snout) bearings for instance, these bearings are NOT available to the public. NSK ships all of these bearings to 1 specific Kaman Industries location which I believe is in cali, who then sell them ONLY to magnuson products. However, what magnuson products does not have priority of is other bearings/seals with the same ratings and then some. It would be ridiculous for magnuson to have total control of any similar products since these particular bearings must have more than one specific application, in this case the snout of an eaton m90. What Im getting at is that you cant buy a NSK 6204C3X28 from Kaman, but you CAN buy a NSK 6204DDU7C3X28, which is esentially the same thing. I spoke to a NSK tech support engineer and he said that the extra numbers were insignificant to the application, I believe that the extra suffixes just meant that it had viton seals on either side.

So Suutari, having that said, Im sure that you will be able to find something else suitable for the application, there has to be another way. You just gotta find something *extra* about the bearings/seals that wont hinder performance.

livn
01-30-2004, 01:03 AM
By the way suutari and crazycouper, how much sc oil do you have leaking into the rotor case to start such a project. I know my blower leaks a lil bit into the case, but i thought this was normal.

Jason Wild
01-30-2004, 01:51 AM
I'm geting a little lost why is it that you can not buy a good make of 6204 bearing and use that?

MIKE 38sc
01-30-2004, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by livn
By the way suutari and crazycouper, how much sc oil do you have leaking into the rotor case to start such a project. I know my blower leaks a lil bit into the case, but i thought this was normal.
That means the seals are leaking. Leaking seals are not good.
Rotor pack seals leaking will pressurize the snout area of the blower when its turning putting alot of pressure on the snout seal thats not meant for that. Then when the blower cools and is not turning that pressure then bleeds back into the rotor area bringing alittle oil with it each time. No you dont want any of the blower seals to leak.

suutari
01-30-2004, 08:38 AM
Secret of the seals is recovered, they are special made DUAL RADIAL LIP SEALS, material is teflon with graphite in it so...Iīm clad I did not get them out yet ;)...(maybe coat the axle shaft with nitrite or similar to make it bigger. These seals require at least 50 vickers). One proposition is to make collet over the sealing part of the shaft from 22mm gudgeon pin this would give me about 0.18mm over size to tighten the loosened seal and give me the advance to use metric seals in the future too..One firm here can do the seals but price is whoppin`105e a piece or 50e one way sealing if the bearings have the viton seals in them ;)...so costīs for seals is labour or minimum of 100e to 200e for the seals depending of the gbearing sealing. One firm offered that I could try viton seals in there(spring loaded and two back to back, high temperature grease between them) that would cost about 100e too..so thatīs out of question. I actually have emailed to magnusson too and because Iīm not living in north america so they might give me the change ;). havent gotteen any answer yet as not from the american high performance seals either. Well now I know that I can get the same kind of seals..but I think Iīm going for the labour part...that should give me some more miles with the unit...thatīs the best I can up for now for the solution..use the old seals with slightly larger shaft size..not much but enough. Iīll get back to you when I hear more...

Cheers, Sami

PS: This looks to be good conversation so after this rebuild there shall be no questions what can be done and what canīt ;)

CrazyCouper
01-30-2004, 01:49 PM
Mike 38sc,
actually I'm rebuilding mine because I lost the snout bearing and
wanted to do a total rebuild. I got to be honest, didn't thing getting parts was going to be this much of a ~~~~!
I was seriously considering making the seals out of VITON, since
it was the recommendation of the seal vendors I'd been talking to, but TEFLON seems like a good option too, maybe cheaper!
bill

CrazyCouper
01-30-2004, 01:54 PM
actually should've directed my last post to 'livn'
bill

livn
01-30-2004, 02:48 PM
Jason,
you can buy a good 6204 bearing, but just not the exact bearing used by eaton. they wont sell it to you because magnuson is the ONLY company designated by eaton to service the blowers, and they want a total monopoly of the eaton rebuilding market. so, unless you work at magnuson you cant get them. and you cant just use any old bearing. the originals have the X28 extension, which just means that they are heat stabilized to
200°C, and are extremely rare and lots of bearing companies dont make them.

Mike,
So what your saying is when i take off the top ic tube there should be NO oil in the rotor case? it should be bone dry?
also, are these leaky seals what causes the buildup of oil in the lower ic tube at the ic connection? because ive heard that that oil was normal also, but if not from the blower, where does it come from??

This damn car

J57ltr
01-30-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by livn


Mike,
So what your saying is when i take off the top ic tube there should be NO oil in the rotor case? it should be bone dry?
also, are these leaky seals what causes the buildup of oil in the lower ic tube at the ic connection? because ive heard that that oil was normal also, but if not from the blower, where does it come from??

This damn car

I ain't Mike but I can answer your Q.

There is a difference between the Supercharger oil and engine oil.

Engine oil gets into the intake system from the PCV system, mostly through the inlet on the back of the Inlet plenum.

If the double lipped seal on the rotor pack leaks 1 or 2 of 2 things can happen.

First if the seal closest to the rotor leaks then the pressure from the supercharger will leak into the snout and cause the snout seal to blow out if enough pressure gets in there.

Second if the seal closest to the gear leaks then the SC oil will enter the rotor area.

Third is a mix of the first two.

Jeff

Jason Wild
01-30-2004, 11:14 PM
livn
Thanks for clearing that up.

MIKE 38scThat means the seals are leaking. Leaking seals are not good.
Rotor pack seals leaking will pressurize the snout area of the blower when its turning putting alot of pressure on the snout seal thats not meant for that. Then when the blower cools and is not turning that pressure then bleeds back into the rotor area bringing alittle oil with it each time. No you dont want any of the blower seals to leak.

I have a new blower and even it leaks so maybe this is something normal.

MercsSC
01-31-2004, 01:02 PM
Take the NSK 6204C3X28 and 6203 (the snout) bearings for instance, these bearings are NOT available to the public.

well I pulled 6203 out of the cartridge and replaced with the exact same bearings ....haven't tryed to get 6204's

http://members.rogers.com/mercssc0/bearings.jpg

side note 6203's are rated to 18,000 rpm ....dave

MIKE 38sc
01-31-2004, 03:56 PM
Mike,
So what your saying is when i take off the top ic tube there should be NO oil in the rotor case? it should be bone dry?
also, are these leaky seals what causes the buildup of oil in the lower ic tube at the ic connection? because ive heard that that oil was normal also, but if not from the blower, where does it come from??



No thats not what I'm saying, J57ltr hit the nail on the head.
When I removed the rotor cartridge from my blower I discovered a trail of oil running down the front rotor plate(where the seals and bearings are) from the rotor shafts inside the rotor compartment. That is the gearlube leaking into the blower.
The thing about it is you cannot see this unless you remove the rotor pack from the blower because with everything installed theres just no way to see it.
Now the gearlube leaking in there is not so much of a problem(besides having to top of the lube every so often) its the extra air thats leaking into the intake system along with the oil (Vac Leak)
thats the problem.

livn
01-31-2004, 07:07 PM
ok, i see
thanks for clearing that up guys.

MercsSC, those are not the exact same bearings that are used by eaton. first way to tell is that they are ddu8, which means they have seals on the outsides. and if you remeber removing the stock bearings, they didnt have seals. so no, they arent the exact same but sure they will work. which is what i was getting at in the first place, you cant buy exact oem parts, but there are plenty of others that will work.

suutari
02-01-2004, 11:00 AM
Yeap, I second that too. You can find good bearings, It doesnīt have to be exactly the same but alternatives are available that work just like the originals. Problem is mainly the teflon seals that have been made hard to replace. My blower was leaking pretty bad so I donīt want to add oil that often to the blower + it pressurized the snout causing leak thru snout seal. I donīt know what would happen if one could replace the snout seal with stronger one thatīll hold more pressure. I think it would start to leak more to the rotors.. Other wise the blower is in very good condition. Iīm replacing the bearings too because they had some slack so I donīt have to do it again for a long time..

Did you leave the seal to the bearing when you replaced it?

I think this is okay, because they are viton seals and have lubrication from the gear turbine oil(plus the bearing rating is x28 and so the seal is up to this too). The teflon seals behind the bearing can go on without lubrication. So I think itīs better to get one more sealing surface between the oil and rotor pack. Only thing there is, does it stand pressure from rotor side too? Maybe itīs just unrelevant because if it fails you end up in the same scenario you had without the extra bearing seal. Altough it will affect the pressures at the inner side of the original seal depending how much itīs leaking. This can do miracles if the bearing seal is enough for the job and this alone could stop the leaking or reduce it by some what, at least the oil stays better in the oil compartment.you just need to remember to put it there right way or it will fail ;). You want the bearing to get lubrication..so seal side should be facing to the rotor pack.
Any opinions?

T:sami

MercsSC
02-01-2004, 11:07 AM
it's the same bearing with the rubber seals added ...it is X28 ..next time.. I do it ..I may leave the inner seal in place and just pull the outter seal.. to let the oil in .. to help the main seals ...seal ...since the pressure or vacume ..will go through the bearings and races... if seals are leaking ..I did not think of this before.. I put mine back together ...not a solution ...but think it would greatly help ....dave

suutari
02-03-2004, 09:08 AM
the bearing seal is viton rubber...but anyway I got answer from magnusson products today. They donīt have summerjobs ;)...plus they told me that if there is something wrong with rotorpack they replace it as whole unit. So thatīs why they donīt stock the seals. Only possible route is eaton directly and I think that is just too tough :/.. So I will enlarge my shaft to 22mm and be done with it. Seals can be made but cost is high..I`ll get back when I have assembled the unit. Iīll post some assembly pictures too and tell how I managed to put it together.
Cheers, Sami

J57ltr
02-03-2004, 08:11 PM
Hmmm, thought I said that they don't even mess with the rotor packs if they are bad. If the 94-95 rotors are chipped they will strip the coating off of them but that's about it.

Good luck

Jeff

MIKE 38sc
02-04-2004, 01:34 AM
Well that just blows chunks!
I need a new rotor pack then and the only way to get that is a new $$$$$ blower. Man a turbocharger is starting to look better and better.:(

suutari
02-10-2004, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by J57ltr
[B]Here is some info from when I forst removed the rotors a few years ago.

I have about 6 superchargers right now and none of the others are bent (about .5mm) like the one that is taken apart. I can't measure it on the assembled ones because the rotors are in the way.

Well..I measured the case too against glass and they both are not straight. So the "damage" was there before taking it apart. They sure fit okay together and the bolts get it straight after tightening it..difference is max 0.5mm(against the glass) so I wonīt worry about it. Might be heat that caused it or manufacturing thingie to get clearances okay..so itīs allright. What comes to bearings they are cheap. those x28 spec bearings that were supposed to be expensive are only 8e plus ina bearings are 11e piece so that takes care of it..get back when I have the bearings and Iīm rebuilding it...just ordered them.

MIKE 38sc
02-11-2004, 11:02 PM
Sami you mentioned earlier about enlarging the shaft diamerters where the seals ride in order to tighten up the seal a little, How do you plan to do that?
My rotor seals are leaking the blower oil into the rotors. I'm not wanting to go turbo but I WILL NOT buy a new blower knowing it cant be FULLY serviced if theres a problem. These things seem to be built like most new cars, once there worn and have a little age on them throw them away and buy a new one.
I swear sometimes I miss the old days real bad! I'm very pissed that 2 seals that should'nt cost no more than $20.00 is gonna cost me $1,000.00 or more! That is just crazy.:rolleyes: :mad:

Rich Thomson
02-12-2004, 07:12 AM
What is the stock diameter of the shaft 22mm? What is the OD size of the seal? Any seals that are larger in diameter with the correct shaft ID? My idea is machine the snout if needed to get the correct size ID. Any needed machining sounds like any machine shop would be capable of doing the work.

I found this web site it says they replace the seals.

Superchargers Online (http://www.superchargersonline.com/repair/)

Supercharges Online BBS (http://www.superchargersonline.com/forum/)

J57ltr
02-12-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by suutari
Well..I measured the case too against glass and they both are not straight. So the "damage" was there before taking it apart. They sure fit okay together and the bolts get it straight after tightening it..difference is max 0.5mm(against the glass) so I wonīt worry about it. Might be heat that caused it or manufacturing thingie to get clearances okay..so itīs allright. What comes to bearings they are cheap. those x28 spec bearings that were supposed to be expensive are only 8e plus ina bearings are 11e piece so that takes care of it..get back when I have the bearings and Iīm rebuilding it...just ordered them.

Well that's good, I was speaking with Wynn about this subject (bent plate) and thought it would flatten once the nose was installed but I didn't think it would move that much.

Rich,

They are refering to the rotor cartridge I think not the nose, as the seals are readily available.

Jeff

suutari
02-15-2004, 11:17 AM
Iīm planning to use the old seals for now and using the extra seal that comes with the bearing to help them out a little..if this doesnīt help you can buy other size seal+hard metal insert that goes on the lathed saft (SFK etc. have them to rebuild old worn sealing area on the safts) and lathe the axels down a little to make everything fit okay+ maybe lathe the seal outer radius a little on the smaller seal nest...but Iīm first trying to use the bearing seal as aid and then Iīll go to extreme if that doesnt help. This bearing seal should keep the oil in the oil compartment put pressurizing the snout is still going to be an issue maybe. they are one way seals that the bearings have..But putting two way viton seal on the snout :D I think everything is going to be just okay + cost effective too. Now when Iīm waiting for the bearings I should do some "little" :D mods to the charger inlet+outlet too ;)...Iīll send pictures when ready and something new comes up.

ss_scuba
02-15-2004, 11:50 PM
Okay, with all the talk about the front plate straightening itself out....what are the torque specs for the bolts? I wound up having to use an impact gun to get them out. I know, it's not the best but it was the only way of me getting them out. A proper torque wrench will be used to put them in. Also, any sealant needed on the bolts?

I'm rebuilding my sc right now, but I'm going to leave the cartridge bearings alone for now. This is a really good thread about replacing them so I will follow it as far as it goes. Thanks for the info.

turbospeed
02-16-2004, 01:27 AM
when you remove the nose how do you seal it

for the bearing i got MRC 203S and 204S the front seal is CR 20x47x7 radial oil seal.

suutari
02-18-2004, 06:55 AM
yes, thatīs right the snout seal is that size and commonly available at normal bearing/seal stores as are the snout+cartridge bearings too. Iīll check the torque from the standards and books..Iīll get back on that. Havenīt got the bearings yet so Iīm just sort of waiting for now. they promised to get them in next week..tightening torques are the same as with everything with aluminium threads..it depends the size of the bolt, thread height and how long it is so Iīll check the max torq..
T:sami

PS:thanks Mike38sc :), donīt worry about it..lets get back when I get everything here and start the assembling process.

MIKE 38sc
02-18-2004, 01:56 PM
I believe the torque spec is 11 ft lbs.

TBirdDriver
03-07-2004, 02:53 AM
Someone did some experimenting.

http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:H_RM7XiE8YkJ:www.zzperformance.com/zzp/info/info_blowerporting.htm+eaton+m90+seals&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Here's another interesting link

http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/powertrain/images/my_rant_about_mods.pdf

XxSlowpokexX
03-07-2004, 10:31 AM
That guy Zoomer is a Bozo..And not a nice guy to boot

suutari
03-16-2004, 12:38 PM
damn those bearings take a long time to arrive..Iīve been hassling with the guy from the bearing shop and I think he ordered them last week when I was calling him about what the heck is going on since itīs taking so long.. :(..MAN! you should do everything by yourself now days. Canīt trust a **** especielly if you order only minor amount of products..Good thing is now I have time to finish my fuel injection computer..:mad:

suutari
04-21-2004, 11:08 AM
:D!
Update expected soon..got all of the bearings today and Iīm sending pictures in few weeks of the rebuild process. I got the bearing prices too now..ina end bearings were 13e a piece and 6203Z(300'C stabilized C3) was 8e a piece and the bigger 6204 X28 was 13e. So thatīs all folks. Iīll send pics soon :).
Iīm going to port the blower too close to Magnaport specs..
Cheers, Sami

PS: The company gave me all ball bearings for 20e because it took so long time to deliver them..Next time Iīm using other company for sure :).

suutari
05-05-2004, 10:02 AM
Okay..started the work today and calculated the forces that the original rotor plate rolled bearing lip holds..aprox 1500kg!!! static load..than calculated loctite 620 bearing clue that still holds at 200'C and calculating with given formulas and with the bearing measurements. I got for static load 360kg and dynamic load 150kg..so I machined the bearing cases down 2mm and Iīm tomorrow making 4mm thick plates to hold the bearings(off course machining them to make slot for the bearing outer ring and oil passage to the middle) and using the round "towers" that are in the bearing case stiffening bars for attachment point to M3 bolts..so then I get 4 M3 bolts for each bearing and itīs more holding power than the original arrangement..As for reference values for the aluminium I used semi hard aluminium value that was 200MPA (braking point -.2%) and that may be little overrated. So if you donīt have machining shop donīt try this at home :)..

Conclusion...
The loctite 620 that is the best bearing clue from them is not going to be enough compared to the old values...might be, but Iīm not taking the risk of the rotors starting to move around when there is 14000rpm:s in the charger!!

gotboostsc
05-05-2004, 10:32 AM
Hi have done a coplete rebuild on my supercharger including taking the gears and lobes out and timing them. If you have any questions I still have my clearances and you can email me if you want. My email is gotboostsc@yahoo.com

suutari
10-20-2004, 12:17 PM
okay..here is some updates now. Iīll be porting the blower soon too. should be in teh car in few months. Changed my car and this project was frozen for a while. Here is link to some pics..I will update them to the same place when I have something new again in few weeks... :)

http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/

mannysc
10-20-2004, 05:04 PM
Wynn tbird88 has all the bearings and seals and I use motorcycle case shellac to seal blower case . get at any motorcycle shop. simular to what was used at eaton.

suutari
11-24-2004, 01:38 PM
some more pics of how the stuff is going together and nice pics from the rotor plate bearing holders too..large pics. Iīll convert them to smaller ones and post new pics as the work is in progress..Iīm casting a little piece from aluminium to the intake side to rase the floor and in these pics you can see the still unfinished mold for it. This is going to be attached to the floor with strongest aluminium glue that I can find for temperatures up to 150īC and some bolts thru the case. Intake and outlet ports are going to be similar to magnacharger magnaport II job..Iīm currently thinking of leaving the charger to glass pead blasted finish, but if I go grazy I might polish it. Any tips for this as the case has some bad *** forms...the cooling fins I mean..
pics are at:
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/uudet/

tbird88
12-06-2004, 11:15 AM
Just an FYI, I've had these seals for awhile now.

suutari...I got these very shortly after your first post long ago, couldn't find you to let you know that I had them. Sure am sorry how "you-know-who" treated you about selling you a couple of seals. I remember back then how "they" wanted you to send your dis-assembled blower to the U.S. because of two lousy little seals.

Anyways, just posting the pics for reference for others that might want to do their own rebuild and not have to rely on "that" company (or others that act the same way).

By the way, do you know Tero in southern Finland?

'bird

2 pics...
http://www.texasthunderbirds.com/img/blwr/seal7196.jpg
http://members.tccoa.com/tbird88/parts/scparts7246.jpg

suutari
12-16-2004, 06:29 AM
Oh man, that would be nice to have those two coal teflon seals that come to the rotor plate :). Is there any way I could buy few from you? And are they the ones that have the same shaft size but different outside measurement? That would be really nice since Iīm just about to but the whole thing together after porting and those two seals are the only ones Iīve had difficulties to find. Would be nice to change them now at the same time.
You can send me private mail about how, If possible, we could arrange the payment+shipping.
cheers, sami

PS: do you know something more about that Tero, any contact info would be nice? Is he on this forum? I heard about one guy whos selling imported used blowers in Finland (Called him and he said that he was rebuilding them if they were in need of that...I donīt know if he has the seals too..was little suspicuous about that as you know the rotor plate bearings are rolled in the plate and attaching them securely is not so easy, well if you want it to be bulled proof anyhow ;) ) and some other dudes that have them in their cars..

tbird88
12-16-2004, 09:31 AM
Oh man, that would be nice to have those two coal teflon seals that come to the rotor plate :). Is there any way I could buy few from you? And are they the ones that have the same shaft size but different outside measurement? That would be really nice since Iīm just about to but the whole thing together after porting and those two seals are the only ones Iīve had difficulties to find. Would be nice to change them now at the same time.
..For your info and for others...The seals are like you described, same shaft size but 2 different outer diameters. They do not have the Teflon edge on the lip though, those would have cost a minimum of $22.00 my price with a minimum order of 40 seals so I don't carry them.

By the way, my mistake...Tero is in Finland, not Norway (oops!)

'bird

suutari
01-26-2005, 01:47 PM
Just finished the outlet port with the milling machine, some little grinding to do still but it looks nice ;). Next week I get the cast piece to the inlet floor and try to finish the intake shape with milling machine before using tig to weld little pieces to act as seal surface where it has gone. Spring time comes so soon this year ;)...!!well every year. Just happy to do things with this blower now that I have nice rig to get it into ;)...

PS: Anybody have good info about timing the rotor gears?
I measured about 0.125mm gap between the rotors and I'm planning to time them like they were using some feeler gauges/sheet metal straps between them when installing the other gear. I also have nice markings about the original gear timing on the shafts so that shouldn't be too hard.

I wonder how long I can tap it to get it aligned after the gear cools down.. :o!
It's one time job...hrr..
I'll post some pics next week :))!

suutari
01-27-2005, 07:58 AM
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin/
there is some pictures about porting etc..
cheers, i'll keep you updated :).

ebodycab
01-29-2005, 04:03 AM
mitä kuuluu? what year SC do you have? Is it in Finland?
terv.Pete

suutari
02-02-2005, 01:02 PM
Some more pics..got the cast piece done today and the intake machined. Still have to smoothen everything out by hand and tig weld the intake side to adapt sealing surface+some reinforcement ;)...
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~samila/ahdin2/

PS: starting to get there... ;). Hope I can test it soon and get the rotors back in. Ja sinne rapakon taakse terve vaan sinnekkin :)!
you can send me private email if you have something you would like to ask.
charger is going to be installed in BMW 325i cabriolet...

suutari
04-14-2005, 10:14 AM
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29150&page=5

some more story and recent pics :).