Some interesting reading

[Trick]

Here's a website that can really make you think.

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net

[XR7 Dave]

Cough****cough.

Reread: recently graduated law student who finds the real world disheartening and work depressing.

Welcome to the real world. ;)

[92TBurnSC]

This may just be nothing more than another example of my hopeless optimism, but humanity will find a way. The reason we have thrived to this point is because of our natural resiliance. We have survived innumerable apocalypses.

The Black Plague
The Spanish Flu
Both World Wars
AIDS
Cancer

If we kowtowed to every prediction of the end of the world etc, we would be long gone by now.

Even if this guy IS right, and I'm not saying he is, I have this feeling the cooler heads and smarter minds will prevail before then.

[Trick]

yea, I seriously doubt 5.5 billion ppl will die. I just think it's time we start making some progress to find some thing else. I mean for a fact oil companys are charging more for oil because of the extra cost if extracing it. They have to go deeper and deeper to find more oil. Use better equipment or develop now ways of finding it. Thus the increase of cost to us on most everything we use.

[92TBurnSC]

Or greed. One or the other.

[Slysc]

I bet this guy has seen all the Mad Max movies.

Geologists guess. They don't KNOW much of anything. They look at rocks and then make assumptions about the past and predictions about the future.

They think the earth is billions of years old, all the while ignoring ample evidence that it is less than 10,000 years old. Their predictions about the future are based upon false presumptions about the past. I don't put much stock into the "peak oil" theory.

Worst case, we're living in an amish paradise.. what's so bad about that?:D

[rock5]

http://members.fortunecity.com/rock5/bsflag.gif

[ThunderRoad]

THE BIBLE GIVES INFO AT MATT;CHAPT 24 MARK CHAPT 13 LUKE CHAPT 21.....2 TIM3,1-5.......FAST FREDDIE:( :( :(

[92TBurnSC]

Less than 10,000 years old?

::scratches noggin::

What planet we talkin 'bout? We have records of CIVILIZATIONS more than 10,000 years old. Let alone human remains which have been dated via carbon dating at several-hundred-thousand years old. Granted carbon dating is only accurate within +/- 2,000 years...but that's still more than 10,000 years.

Now before we wind up getting into the creationism versus evolution bit, let me say that, even though Geologists DO somewhat have to guess, they're not just making ***** up. Paleontologists and the like are more specific and accurate on their numbers. So, believe what you want, I will believe what the teachings of empiricism show.

[XR7 Dave]

Why try to turn this into an argument? Dan was stating his opinion to which he is entitled. If you have a comment to make that is relevant to the post then please do. Otherwise please don't.

:)

[1BADSC]

Who cares about peak oil. We can just use bio-desiel and make gobs of TQ or even propane which is much better than gasoline. Either way we will still be just fine.

Just like global warming. ha ahah ahhahaha. Loved Gore's speech a little while ago about global warming on the coldest day in NY since many years ago. :)

I say bring it on. :)

[Slysc]

The whole age of the earth debate would drag us into a creation vs. evolution debate. I could go on for pages about the whole topic but I doubt it would be fruitfull. I believe that evolutionists believe in evolution in blind faith without scientific evidence, evolutionists believe that creationists believe in creation in blind faith without scientific evidence. We will not agree so it's not worth debating in this format.
If your really interested in evidence for young earth and would like young earth responses to old earth arguments, and why text books and some scientists say things are older than that, e-mail me and I'd be glad to have that discussion. I will assure you that it is scientific and not based upon crackpot theory or mythology. :)

daniel.c.sly@jci.com

[Doug Franklin]

Guys if you look at the word creation more like organize it might make more sense to you. The elements, old as they are, were there. Material to make planets and suns are out there floating around. He did not need to create matter out of nothing. Arguing this point is like liberals and conservatives or any other politics IMHO. God knows how to get things together or seperated. I know some educators who believe the dinasours were here so we could have oil. Whatever, but trying to say God created the matter is not the way I understand creation. Lets juat say he knows all the laws of things and how to create a world from all the material out there.

Now concerning the article I think we all know there is ultimatly a limit to the supply. Would be nice if more R&D money was spent. Would be nice if all industry would get together. Would be nice if we give tax incentives to energy companies to look for energy and do R&D for alternatives. But getting oil industry to do R&D is like the train & shiping companies investing in aerospace or automotive R&D back when those 2 industries fell to the car and plane. Ultamatly it all comes out of our pockets. One thing for sure these guys who own the oil tend to buy riches rather than fund R&D. Maybe just like Texas taxed every drop coming out of the ground we need to do the same for every drop shiped in but earmarked for alternatives. But that tax gets passed on to us which leads to recessions.

Just In Time (JIT) delivery to stores and industry has put more trucks on the road instead of using trains. I guess the economics are some kind of trade off, but JIT will hurt us as well in several ways.

Best we can do is keep our shelves full of food and learn how to be a bit self suficient. Prepare for the worse. I keep the old bicycles around. I used to ride one for everything. And that was in 74 during the first oil crises. I lived within 2 miles of my job for years. The Chinese do fine with little oil. They all know how to live off the land and walk or bicyle to work. Few have TV or radio. You don't need a lot of what you have.

Now that I dribbled. Lets all get a big blocks and not worry about it when we get it on.

Take care guys,

[Doug Franklin]

Anyone for putting together a non-profit organization we can donate money to? We would get the deduction. Set it up where knowlegable folks donate time and our bucks go to equipment for the R&D. How many would spend for that? Not to many I'm sure. Would be nice sense any government or industry R&D gets passed on to us anyway.

Who knows maybe there is something out there already.

Another thing is the buck we can donate for the elections on our tax form. Maybe it would be better spent for this kind of R&D than the junk & disenformation we get from most major candidates. 1-3 bucks from every tax payer per year. hmm.

[1BADSC]

Doug, I don't think there are too many ways to interpret "In the beginning there was nothing" :)

[Doug Franklin]

You know better than that. "In the beginning God created..."

He divided the waters and the dry land appeared in verse 7. First ref to land. Vers 2 says the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Water must have already been there.

Not trying to argue. I believe God created this world. I don't think we can say he created matter out of nothing. I guess I have been a little surprised that a lot of folks do. I find it curious.

[Trick]

One thing alot of pepole are not realizing is without oil we won't have alots of things of than gas for our cars. It's used in almost every thing we have or use. And sadly alot of people couldn't provide for them selfs. They depend on the store to have every thing they need.

[XR7 Dave]

We could be burning alcohol in our tanks. How about that? People could all be self sufficient in regards to fuel. Just think of all the wasted farm land that could be growing corn or whatever for alcohol production. Farmers would become rich again. How about that?

There are also engines that will run on any kind of liquid carbon/hydrogen based fuel. Fact is we only use as much oil as the world's reserves can handle. Plain and simple. Oil is cheap, people buy SRT-10's. Oil is not cheap, people buy other stuff. Plain and simple. The oil is not going to all of the sudden dry up. As reserves become more scarce, oil will be used for more necessary things and the other things will become more expensive. No big deal. Do you really think that people are going to continue to buy Excursions and other useless mammoth vehicles? Nope. One day it will stop. Until then America will roll on 24's baby!

[Doug Franklin]

Soft drinks went to plastic because the glass companies stoped making them. We can return to bottles with a deposit like it used to be to clean and reuse. Sure it takes energy for glass, that is why the return deposit. Bottles become valuable. Oil used to be in a cardboard & metal can.

Got a fire place? I know families who have a big fire place with rods to hang pots. They have the pots, iron, etc etc laying around as decoration in the house. My Dad pointed out that it was thier way of preparing incase they had no power. The house was huge but built by the owner. It was on a very wooded lot with another wooded rent house down the street. They had food stored. And this was all in the middle of Dallas. Not some Western Hermit. I noticed several families like that over the years.

Friend of mine & I were discussing small diesel trucks, like Isuzu had. Diesel fuel stores for long time. A 4 banger little truck would be conservative for the times you need it. Otherwise crank on the old bike. S. Korea has thousands of these little utility trucks. I wish I could import one.

My biggest problem is that I grow nothing. Families used to have gardens. You don't see it any more. Grass. I hate perfect lawns. Anyway hope to start a garden. USA had victory gardens in WW2. We can do it again if seeds are available. Unfortunatly a few companies have made sterile hybirds so the crops have no seed for next year. They want you to have to buy again. I hope to find and grow natural. I guess moonshining will be for fuel instead of drinking, maybe.

I suppose my company Van would have some priority over a private car for gas rationing. Don't know if we get into a crunch.

[Slysc]

We have been using oil for about 100 years now and developed better ways to get it out of the ground and more efficient ways of using it. It that 100 years we've gone from riding around in horse drawn carts to cars and planes. So if this guy's theory is correct and we are still on the upslope, soon to reach "peak oil", then we should have another 100 years to figure out another way. I think we'll manage.
Personally, I'd be surprised if in 100 years, society hasn't collapsed not due to lack of oil, but from moral decay. The Lord will return someday soon. That could happen any day. I think running out of oil is the least of our worries.

[ThunderRoad]

:) :eek: :) :)

[MIKE 38sc]

We COULD make synthetic gasoline from coal because we have an abundance of coal in the US. There are plans right now to do just this thing, I've seen the blueprints for it and a good friend of mines father is heading up that project. However our present political leadership is putting the squeeze on the project. Mr. Cheney wants a piece of the pie for doing absolutely NOTHING,
other than giving his blessing. The story is long and drawn out but this thing was a go when we had other political leadership but now some members of our present leadership have it tied up in the courts squashing it until they get there way.
Who knows if it will ever happen now.

[Doug Franklin]

Amen Slysc

Why not drill where ever oil is instead of restricting, just clean it up afterward?

Why not also put tax incentives or money into alternatives?

Too bad these are in opposing parties. No common sense just division. We would never get anything done in our littel town if we fought as seperate parties. Dang Nixon making it so he ran against McGovern. Ruined Democrat party for a lot of us so we have no alternative.

[MIKE 38sc]

Yeah Doug politics ruins everything it touch's and thats why I hate to see politics come to this club with the upcoming officer elections. I would just as soon see George Davenport stay on as King of the SCCOA as turn down the other path myself, but hey thats another discussion altogether so I'll leave it at that.

[Doug Franklin]

You have a very good point. I guess I have been a bit at fault with the problem for sure. I have tried to cool it, mostly.

[MIKE 38sc]

No Doug you're entitled to your opinions and I have no problem with that. I just think the present system works pretty good and maybe only needs a few tweaks, but nothing as major as overhauling the complete political structure of the club.
All hail King George!!! LOL!!!!:)

[Doug Franklin]

Yea no government is better than a rightous King. But when they go bad it is very dificult to remove them. No reference to George intended.:D

I guess it is up to George what we do.

[1BADSC]

God wants spiritual fruit not religious nuts. :)

We will never have huge resources dumped into alternative energy until it becomes a necessity. As of now we still have plenty of oil for the next 50-80 years. Until that time comes I wouldn't expect anything big. I would like to see propane come about as a fuel since their is a ton of it and it makes amazing HP with a very high octane rating. We would be back to running 11:1 on mild economy cars. :) and 12:1 and 13:1 on faster cars. Plus propane doesn require a lot of RD to switch over.


The government could save millions of dollars in gas over a one year period by building more roads. Millions of gallons are wasted every year idiling in traffic. Car & Driver did a study on this not to long ago.

[Doug Franklin]

Sounds good but why not do it all. Infastructure is part of the problem. Just like the Fuel cells and Hydrogen. I suspect we will do OK but being a little prepaired for emergencies or lay offs always help. Don't mean be a mountain man and live off the land;)

[1BADSC]

Necessity is the mother of all invention and we have no necessity. Although I am sure that all of the technology is there and waiting to be used for when the time comes. However, no one wants the technology. The sales numbers prove it. Even with the high mileage per gallon hybrids they still cost more over a 100,000 miles than any other normal 4cyl engine. The cost to get into one of those vehicles offsets the fuel savings leaving the hybrid still costing thousands more after 100,000 miles.

Also, they way hybrids are sold breaks trade rules that have been in place for a while. Called dumping, importing vehicles and selling them for a loss in order to saturate the market. Honda and Toyota were both doing this with the hybrids.

[MIKE 38sc]

1BADSC:
Also, they way hybrids are sold breaks trade rules that have been in place for a while. Called dumping, importing vehicles and selling them for a loss in order to saturate the market. Honda and Toyota were both doing this with the hybrids.


Noooooooo...That cant be true! You're just Japan bashing!
Where do you get this stuff? You cant do that here...This is America and that cant happen.

Now before you get all upset let me say I'm just pulling on your leg. Your statement about one of our trading partners is one I completely agree with.
Back in 84 when I was talking about the same practices taking place with the same trading partner people would say to me those comments I first said to you. Here we are 20 years later and theres someone still talking about it???????? You say its still going on 20 years later???????? You gotta love free trade, and we Americans sure do. But free trade does'nt have to be fair for all the parties involved now does it?

[cheapbird]

I would worry more about water than I would oil. Oil would affect the way you live, water affects if you live...

Sounds like the author is a member of the "Democrats for zero population growth" movement.

Originally posted by Doug Franklin
Soft drinks went to plastic because the glass companies stoped making them. We can return to bottles with a deposit like it used to be to clean and reuse. Sure it takes energy for glass, that is why the return deposit. Bottles become valuable.

Stuff comes in plastic because companies want to pay to ship product, not containers. Plus someone has to pay to ship those heavy bottles back to the bottling plant. Plastic containers are cheap, disposable and have less "lossage" in shipping. Start adding all that back in and you won't get cheap soda anymore, because they're not going to want to reduce their profit margin.

Believe me, the glass companies didn't stop making them on their own accord...



Edited fur speellin':rolleyes:

[Doug Franklin]

All I know is what I was told by the owner of a San Antonio bottler who tried but could only get very small bottles in glass. The glass co. would not make the 16oz bottles anymore. The small glass bottles came from Mexico. The trucks have to drive back to the plant so empty bottles not big deal, other than the hassle. It IS the way it used to be. May not be the most convenient way. Also I know for a fact that some bottling companies wanted galss because the flavor is better. I understand the weight thing your talking about. People like me called wanting it in glass and dug to the bottom of it because the change in flavor when everything went to plastic.

Also many glass companies went under in this country so bottles just not available. Just another fact I found out back when the change took place. Perhaps some large companies caused it but not all soft drink makers wanted it this way.;)

[cheapbird]

I totally agree with you about the flavor, and also shelf is longer in the glass vs plastic. And you're right about not all companies wanting plastic, but when the big boys took their bussiness elsewhere the glass companies lost a big chunk of their profit.

It's that cost of production vs what people will pay, along with "the more you make, the cheaper it is" bit.
When you lose your "bread and butter" customers it takes a bunch more little ones to make up for that loss. Medicine bottles, baby bottles, 2 quart soda bottles, a lot of food items, a lot of automotive and other chemicals and cleaners used to come in glass. When you factor in how many customers you have left today, you end up working just to make bottles for them. (Very little or no profit.)
The bottom line is glass is still more costly than plastic.
Even with reusing bottles you have to re-use them so many times to re-coupe your expense. And to re-use them means more than transporting them. There's sorting and cleaning, inspection and the chance for more lossage.(breakage.) And I'd rather have my drivers on the road selling/delivering product rather than spending time collecting bottles.

The worst thing about plastics is their out-gassing. Goes right into the product. Plastic tasting water is such a treat... :rolleyes:
Glass is better economically, but I don't think so from a health stand-point.

[92TBurnSC]

The whole "it costs too much" excuse is a lousy excuse for anything. If the price of soda increases 20 cents because it's in glass...so be it. I'll take the hit. And with the popular trend of nostalgia going around (as mostly seen in clothing and auto industries) it will catch. As far as the taste of soda, I still say that fountain soda trumps all. When I can afford ahome (someday) I want to put a soda fountain in it. Sam's sells the syrup ;) .

As far as fuel alternatives go...we're way behind the times. Our best efforts are (from GM) the EV1 which was a practical disaster and (from Ford) the large line of FFV vehicles (Taurus, Rangerm Escort, etc) and the hybrids (Ranger and Escape)...both of which are dubious at best. We need to tap the greater resources of both Ethanol and Hydrogen. E85 is a viable fuel source and Hydrogen can be produced via electrolysis in solar, wind, hydro and geothermal production plants. As far as producion of home electricity, nuclear is immediately clean and safe. Spent fuel and nuclear waste ARE issues...but there are better ways to deal with it than burying it in a mountain in Nevada. And if not, we are stuck with one f*cked up mountain in Nevada instead of millions of acres of polluted land from coal and oil and gas plants, etc.

And as far as waiting until we NEED to do something before we actually DO something is, as we all should know, is a bad idea. For instance, Clinton left office with a viable plan to assassinate bin Laden, however, it wasn't finshed until about 3 weeks before Bush took office. Instead of handing Bush an office at war, he handed him the plan, all Bush had to do was say "go." What did he do? He buried it in beauracracy until he finally said go...on September 9th, 2001. Granted, who was to know...but this is just another way the whole attack could have been at LEAST destabilized, if not thwarted.

So imagine if this peak oil theory IS correct and we sat on our thumbs until something REALLY needed to be done? We may not see it in OUR lifetime...but since when did THAT matter? Plus, what's the worst that could happen if we DID act on this? Better fuel economy and less reliance on foreign oil, as well as oil in general? I shudder at the thought. </sarcasm>

[1BADSC]

92TBurn the cost from ground to pump on the other fuels is still much higher than gasoline. And I would love to see Clinton's plan on an assination. Did it involve Monica.

[MIKE 38sc]

There you go again 1BADSC listening and beleiving Fox News.
You and I have talked many times before and you know what I've done for a living so dont be suprised when I say I have worked in a Shell oil and Marathon oil refineries. I'm not even gonna tell you what they have in 1 gallon of gasoline when it leaves those refineries because you would not beleive it.
I have a friend that owns a local Citgo bulk terminal as well and he makes a VERY HEALTHY living at it. His markup is over 200% per gallon.;)

[1BADSC]

Mike. Doesn't that prove my point even more. That the cost from ground to pump is still way cheaper for gasoline compared to any alternative fuels. There will be no big expansion of fueling stations for it because no car makers are really making cars for it. No car makers are making the cars in great quanity because there is no market for it. When we run low on gas then the transfer will be made and made quickly. Disel wouldn't be bad either, it is much cleaner now, you get better mileage, and the motors last longer.

[Doug Franklin]

Originally posted by 92TBurnSC
And as far as waiting until we NEED to do something before we actually DO something is, as we all should know, is a bad idea.

For instance, Clinton left office with a viable plan to assassinate bin Laden, however, it wasn't finshed until about 3 weeks before Bush took office. Instead of handing Bush an office at war, he handed him the plan, all Bush had to do was say "go." What did he do? He buried it in beauracracy until he finally said go...on September 9th, 2001. Granted, who was to know...but this is just another way the whole attack could have been at LEAST destabilized, if not thwarted.
</sarcasm>

No I don't think we should wait, but economics are there and like Mike is indicating that the profit margins will remain. And we all should know it matters not which party is in office on that!

Bash Bash Bash, Geee man....Democrat Kennedy had a plan given to him about Cuba from Eisenhower. Boy folks hated him at the time for screwing that up by not defending the guys he finally allowed to go into the Bay of Pigs, just like you are saying about Bush. Yea who is to know. Clinton's group left nothing in the White House for them to take over. New computers and everyting had to be brought in. We can point fingers all night but that is off topic.

[Doug Franklin]

Originally posted by 1BADSC
Mike. Doesn't that prove my point even more. That the cost from ground to pump is still way cheaper for gasoline compared to any alternative fuels. There will be no big expansion of fueling stations for it because no car makers are really making cars for it. No car makers are making the cars in great quanity because there is no market for it. When we run low on gas then the transfer will be made and made quickly. Disel wouldn't be bad either, it is much cleaner now, you get better mileage, and the motors last longer.

I bought a new little car in 79. Drove it for 1yr 3 mo and sold it to a dealership for 300 less than what I paid for it, cash. Yea when an oil crises happens things change in a hurry. Drove my V8 back to TX laughing. Guess I don't do my part when it comes to cars.

[Doug Franklin]

Originally posted by 92TBurnSC
The whole "it costs too much" excuse is a lousy excuse for anything. If the price of soda increases 20 cents because it's in glass...so be it. I'll take the hit. And with the popular trend of nostalgia going around (as mostly seen in clothing and auto industries) it will catch. As far as the taste of soda, I still say that fountain soda trumps all. When I can afford ahome (someday) I want to put a soda fountain in it. Sam's sells the syrup ;) .
</sarcasm>

Gotta agree with you on this for sure. Nothing like a fountain Dr. Pepper.

[MIKE 38sc]

Yeah and its real hard to find a good soda jerk anymore.:(

[Doug Franklin]

I'm a Jerk for posting all that crap above. Shut me up.

[cheapbird]

Originally posted by Doug Franklin
I'm a Jerk for posting all that crap above.
Nah...

You brought up a very good point about corporate "philosophy" today.
The same forces that applied to the soda-makers/bottlers/glass/plastic industries apply to the energy companies as well.

It seems that taking risks in bussiness today has been all but lost.
People want to stick with the "tried and true" and not try something different. It's like your small soda company looking for bottles. If someone would take the initiative and develop and supply those bigger bottles, the soda co may become wildly successfull. Without at least the chance, no-one will ever find out.

Oh, and sodas made with cane sugar instead of corn-syrup, oh yeah!

[Doug Franklin]

cheapbird you have no PM button.

What happened to Grapette? They started up again about a year ago again and sold in Wal-Mart but now nothing again. No grape drink was ever better when I was a kid. I would love to get the formula if the owners are out of business again. I took a case into city council meeting and everyone was like Oh, Yea!! They had forgot how good they were.

[cheapbird]

Hmm, I'm not familiar with it. I'm a big soda fan as well, and the little "territorial" companies produce some really good stuff! From what I understand, the product is usually produced in the same plant as others. It's like the companies "buy time" from the manufacturer using their own recipies.
Might want to try a search for it on the web. There are a few companies that deal with the small soda makers. They'll mail it to you! A little pricey, but if you don't hafta have soda every day, it's the way to go in my book.
I'd rather spend a little more for quality rather than spend less just for quantity's sake.

And I'm horrible about checking PMs. So I left it off. On another board I found that I had one waiting for almost a year! I think the guy thought I was just dismissing him. I just forgot it existed!

On edit: I decided to search for it myself, and lo and behold!http://www.grapette.com/index.asp ! Read their history. Corporate greed (buying out your competition) and re-building a company are both there. I love it when the "little guy" comes back!

[92TBurnSC]

I suppose I should clarify on the whole assassination plan. Clinton COMMISSIONED it. He didn't make the plan itself. It was completed under the watch of former NSA Sandy Berger. Before th Clintons left office, Berger held around 10 briefings with incoming NSA Condoleeza Rice and deputy NSA Stephen Hadly. The plan itelf was drawn up by a counterterrorism specialist in the NS dept by the name of Richard Clarke. Clarke, after the departure of Berger, again explained the details and intricacies of the plan to Dr. Rice. She loved it, apparently, enough to ask him to stay on board as head of counterterrorism...which he did. He subsequently brought the brief to VP Cheney...nobody honestly knows how that meeting went. The brief was also passed to SOD Donald Rumsfeld who, at the time, was more concerned with the whole missile defense malarky and reorganizing the military's force structure. Apparently that was all he had the attention span to handle. Long story short, it took a revision by Clarke, and 4 boloney meetings it was approved on July 16th. Subsequently it had to go to Principals Committee, consisting of Cheneym Rice, Tenet, Powell and Rumsfeld. They wanted to do it in August but no all of them were in town at one time until September 4th. On September 9th it was given $600M by Congress. Two days later...

As far as the whole "it costs less from the well to the pump," you know it's a sad time in our existence when we value profit over the survival of our kind and way of life. This really is a statement to defend the greedy oil barons who have prevented all kinds of fuel alternatives from seeing the light of day.

If you had the choice between a higher profit margin or promoting the longevity of your species' way of life, which would YOU pick?

I should hope the latter.

Finally, I can't remember if I have had soda made with cane sugar versus corn syrup or not. But it doesn't really matter now. I'm diabetic and all I can drink is diet...which after a while, is pretty good. ::shrugs::

[1BADSC]

It was Clinton and Clinton only who could have prevented 9-11 but he did nothing.

[Doug Franklin]

Well we are a World market now. It is dificult for companies to adjust. I remember when Presidents and owners of companies drove common cars and worked hard because of the responsibility to the empoyees, their jobs, and families. 3 yrs ago the owner of my empoyer sold because of his age. But we really were going to head into trouble on our costs and though global still not global enough in sales. Now we have to answer to stock holders. But we have leaders who want to keep it solvent with the profit margins. The jury is out still but we have had minimal layoffs, but a whole lot of repricing and buying new machinery to lower costs.

After 2 trips to Asia I still recomend that we have an American who knows our products getting our parts designed in. The market is huge in Asia. They will buy our product. But so far we are still relying on agents in those countries who do know the language and are good salesmen, but not Engineering salesmen where you get new applications and designs for the customer.

My point being response time to the market overseas. Yes jobs are going there which means they have the bucks to buy our products. A lot of industry over there is because we are not doing enough to sell to them. Even at higher prices those folks LOVE American way or life, as they understand it which is not always correct either. They want our products. I see Germans, French, and some Americans but not enough Americans in Asia getting sales so we have jobs here in America. People get stuck in a rut. I would love to live in S Korea or China because Aerospace is as big over there now as what it used to be in America. Unbelievable my company is not listening to me. But new boss now so maybe!

[MIKE 38sc]

Originally posted by 1BADSC
It was Clinton and Clinton only who could have prevented 9-11 but he did nothing.
Oh Bullshirt!!! Who brought that worthless tick turd Bin lauden into our fold to begin with? Lay down with dogs and you will wake up with fleas, but apparently the masters of the universe dont understand that simple concept because they just keep on keeping on with it.:rolleyes:

[1BADSC]

Clinton never did anything to stop the attacks on our country or our people. remember WTC #1 and our response ...... NOTHING.

[MIKE 38sc]

Yeah like any of us know what goes on behind closed doors.
Answer the qeustion. Who brought Alibaba and his many thieves into our fold to begin with? Huh?
Typical response, blame the people that did'nt invite the dog into the house to begin with but blame them when it eats the couch.:rolleyes:

[92TBurnSC]

Originally posted by 1BADSC
It was Clinton and Clinton only who could have prevented 9-11 but he did nothing.

Nothing, eh?

"Overall I give [Clinton] high marks. The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama, which made him stronger." -Robert Oakley, Ambassador for Counterterrorism, Reagan State Department

"[Clinton] correctly focused on bin Laden." -Paul Bremer, Civilian Administrator in Iraq

Does anybody else find it funny that nobody blamed Daddy Bush for the 1993 WTC bombing? Libreal media bias my ash.

And to those who say Clinton did nothing about said 1993 bombing, then why did Clinton seek out, capture, try and convict Ramzi Yousef, Abdul Hakim Murad and Wali Khan Amin Shah, the gentlment responsible for the bombing?

Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist too. He didn't get away with anything.

The CIA, under Clinton, also uncovered plans to assassinate the Pope and another to destroy 12 airliners simultaneously. Refresh me, did those ever happen?

He also thwarted attacks on the UN Headquarters in NYC, the J. Edgar Hoover building (FBI headquarters), the Israeli embassy in DC, LAX and Boston Airports, the Lincoln and Holland tunnels, the George Washington Bridge, AND the US Embassy in Albania.

Of course he didn't do this all by himself, he did it by tripling the FBI counterterrorism budget AND doubled counterterrorism financing overall. This resulted in the shuttering of al Qaeda cells in 20 countries.

His two anti-crime bills, which were passed, had REALLY tough antiterrorism legislation within. He also instituted a national stockpile of drugs and vaccines (including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine).

Washington Post author Barton Gellman, who wrote a four-part series about the Clinton administration's defensive practices, said, "By any measure available, Clinton left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him...[Clinton's was] the first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort."

This, in addition to the assassination plan, was ALL done by Clinton.

If this is your definition of "doing nothing," I bet you're one heckuva industrious fella. I bet you make the most hard-working beaver look lazy.

[1BADSC]

So our underfunded military was able to protect us? Or maybe blowing up the yugo factory, or hitting China's embassy? Oh, but wait that was just to distract the press from his oral scandals. Hey, how many mureders do you think Bush will pardon before he leaves office in 4 more years?

[MIKE 38sc]

:D

[4.6LCougarXR7]

I heard on NPR (National Public Radio), I think, the other day that we have at least 200 years of oil reserves at present consumption rates in the ground in the United States, including Alaska. Our dependency on foreign oil isn't so much after all. I believe sometime within the next 200 years we will come up with something and between now and then we have foreign oil and alot of time to make more fuel efficient cars and less Ford Excursions for people who don't need them.

[MIKE 38sc]

Why is every drop of Alaskan oil being sold to Japan? Why do we need the middleastern oil? I mean after all we have so much extra that were selling it to other countries, but yet we import oil for our own use. ........Why did'nt I see it earlier? it makes perfect sense to me now.:p

[cheapbird]

Just how much is a gallon of gas in Japan?

[ThunderDave]

Lets be sure to recycle!!!!!!

David

[1BADSC]

Most of our oil reserves are useless at the present moment, but I doubt NPR mentioned that. About 90% of our oil reserves are in shale (shale oil), high parafin content, almost like paste. As of right now it is extremley expensive to extract and even more expensive to refine.

[Doug Franklin]

I saw one of those Toyota Hybird cars yesterday. In front of me at Burger King. Most new cars being ugly, it didn't look to bad. Was quiet.

Now you 2 political debaters. They do what they can. Folks sldom blame a previuos adminsitration for anything. Kinda like our economy. Friends of mine and I were waiting for it to fall and hard. We knew it had to when Clinton in office. But he had little to do with that just like Bush has little to do with it now. But if I take yalls aproach then old man Bush gets the credit for most of those good economic years. One man cannot control too much in this country. It is a bunch of individuals.

Glad we are going to a wilderness to get oil. Has anyone planted a tree lately?:D :D

[SC UL8R1990]

not me, same snow crap here.......oh wait its going to be 41 today and 47 tomorrow!! heat wave in ohio:D :D :D

[92TBurnSC]

Shale oil is not useless, per se. It is still oil and still refinable. If it's more expensive, well, then it's more expensive. One thing the oil companies have found out, especially within a 70 mile radius of Chicago, people will buy gas regardless of the price. It's constantly near or over $2/gallon for regular there. Which is still a bargain when compared to Europe's near $5/gallon.

[ThunderRoad]

BUT THEY GET MORE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IT,S LITERS..............FAST FREDDIE:confused: :confused: :eek: :eek: :cool: :cool: :o :o :) :) :)