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plev72
03-12-2004, 06:58 PM
Hey all, I know there have been a few posts about EEC programming, which general end up with a brief list of names of people who will write you program for a nominal fee.

Ideally I'd like to write my own program, but that I (and most other people who want to write their own programs) will need a brief course in "how to program." I was wondering if there was anyone out there with the requisite expertise who would be willing to provide some guidance or get involved in a give-and-take public discussion with the other tuning folks so that we could all benefit from the info...

(was the clearish?? Hmm)

Thanks,
Paul

Rob Noth
03-13-2004, 12:09 AM
Paul,
Using the standard EEC tuner software it's really just a matter of editing values in a text file. If you can use "Notepad" you are fine as far as software skills go.

But I think you were probably asking about the difficult part, which is knowing WHAT changes to make. This pretty much requires some in-depth knowledge of internal combustion engine fundamentals as well as EEC operating procedure. I don't think anyone could explain those topics in a "brief course", although if you do some reading on the net you can find a lot of documentation.

One tip I can give is to start with your stock file as a baseline, and make only small changes to one thing at a time, this will make it less likely that you mess something up and grenade the engine. Typically the values that people change would include the timing tables, fuel tables, MAF calibration (if you have an aftermarket MAF), injector size (if you changed injectors), and fan temperatures. A lot of other values you won't ever need to change, so it's not quite as complex as it might look.

BT Motorsports
03-13-2004, 08:04 AM
I see where Paul is coming from on this. One can go pretty far with the tuning notes from Shiftmaster in addition to the notes from MN12Performance (though each has some discrepancies), however, there are things which are not explained at all. For example, anyone know what the TORQUE_TRUNCATION_TABLE is used for? It wouldn't be there if it didnt have a purpose of some sort.
I think there are enough of us using tuners now that want to tune on our own and be able to make adjustments on the fly if we feel the need to, that we could all benefit from sharing information. Those that bought a tuner want to have personal hands on ability or have an ever changing setup. The rest go for a preprogrammed chip and call it a day.
Problem I most often see is someone who has the background [my father is a prime example] from the old school hotrodding days will not know how to apply it to the file. [The man builds 2.8hp/cu. in. n/a small block chevys running on pump gas and a carb, but can't turn a computer on]. One other thing to keep in mind is tuning on the dyno is great, but it really isnt indicative of all real world driving conditions. Ever see a car that makes great power on the dyno with no detonation but then pings like hell on the street immediately after being unstrapped? I did at the shootout pre dyno session at Stiegs back in Sept.
I think Paul doesn't want to be in that situation but rather be able to do his dyno tuning himself or with some guidance then take the car in the mountains and twisties and fine tune it for varying conditions without having to get on the internet or phone to have someone else do it for him 10 times. Ask John Shelton how he ended up melting a piston. Just my 2 cents

Paul

P.S. I still feel an EEC tuning forum would be invaluable to the community. If nothing else, it will help educate owners about how changes to the tune can affect their car in varying conditions.

MIKE 38sc
03-13-2004, 01:19 PM
Thanks for being honest about dyno's Paul. That was very refreshing and the truth. Best use I have for dyno sheets is in the bathroom.........oh I can feel the flames licking my backside already.:p

Rob Noth
03-13-2004, 05:35 PM
I'll second Paul's comment about the EEC tuning forum, although this has been asked for several times and hasn't yet materialized...

BTW my TORQUE_TRUNCATION_TABLE is all zeros, so I really have no idea what it's for.

BT Motorsports
03-13-2004, 07:04 PM
Don't get me wrong, the dyno is an invaluable tool when used properly, but it sure as hell isn't an end all or the last word. I have a few friends that got tired of spending money on dynoing their car and ponied up their money to get their own. They do not let anyone use it other than the group of 7 that made the investment and it has proven to be the best thing for them. After watching one of them put down over 770 at the wheels on the dyno then going to the track and only pulling mid 10s, my point was proven. He ended up doing 3 days of pulls playing with his timing and fuel curves before figuring out what was happening. The car was detonating on the 2-3 shift and laying down when the knock sensor pulled the timing back. He ended up richening the car up to 9.8:1 on the shift to cool the intake charge. HP dropped about 20 at the wheel, but he is solid in the 9s now.

BTW, he was datalogging the entire time, but that could only go so far as well since it did not explain why the detonation was occuring.

Rob, my TORQUE_TRUNCATION_TABLE are the same and since I haven't a clue what it does, it will stay that way. I have observed 1 or two files which had # put in them by a tuner, but they sure will not share why it was done or what it accomplishes:rolleyes:

Paul

XR7 Dave
03-13-2004, 08:00 PM
One of the problems with tuning these cars with an EEC tuner is that no one really knows what makes these cars tick. Proof to back up that statement is that the fastest SC out there (Coy Miller) admits to knowing little about the EEC, and Jim Demmitt, one of the other fastest SC's out there, claims to be running with no programming at all. Add to that the fact that some cars don't seem to "take" to the inputs given very well and it just gets really ugly quick.

It doesn't help either that we have a very limited number of parameters to work with (our version EEC is largely unexplored) and a lot of the true "logic" that our EEC's use is also unknown such that it becomes something just short of witchcraft to make it work right.

RichM
03-13-2004, 11:11 PM
everyone keeps pointing me to
Yahoo Groups EEC tuner page (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EECTuner)
I just registed for it and haven't been able to read though it very well. Also the TCCoA has a very unused EEC Tuner Board (http://forums.tccoa.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=12)

Everyone also keeps shouting out Dr. Freds name but unfortunatly I haven't seen or heard of anything from him in quite some time. His e-mail is someplace on the board but his web page at zianet.com is long since dead.

I also agree that an EEC board would be very nice.

MIKE 38sc
03-13-2004, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by XR7 Dave
One of the problems with tuning these cars with an EEC tuner is that no one really knows what makes these cars tick. Proof to back up that statement is that the fastest SC out there (Coy Miller) admits to knowing little about the EEC, and Jim Demmitt, one of the other fastest SC's out there, claims to be running with no programming at all. Add to that the fact that some cars don't seem to "take" to the inputs given very well and it just gets really ugly quick.

It doesn't help either that we have a very limited number of parameters to work with (our version EEC is largely unexplored) and a lot of the true "logic" that our EEC's use is also unknown such that it becomes something just short of witchcraft to make it work right.

Dave a fella that runs a website about the EEC IV system came to this board and posted to say "Hi" and that he wanted to see the site from which most of his hits were coming from. He's very knowledgable on the EEC IV system being as the co he works for and the sponsor of his site works with Ford on the EEC IV system. Too bad not many people noticed but maybe he could come back.

BT Motorsports
03-13-2004, 11:26 PM
Mike, I must have missed that post, can you direct me to it or his contact info? I am very interested in speaking with him.

Paul

DLF
03-13-2004, 11:35 PM
If you really want to tune your own car, spend the money and get the Pro-Racer package from SuperChips Custom Tuning which you can get at the Modular Depot (http://www.modulardepot.com/index.php). The documentation alone is worth it.

The "Man" himself, Jerry W., is part of this new company, along with some other notables.

It's what I'm using on all my cars now.

Not cheap, but in addition to getting a great product (MUCH better hardware than the EEC-Tuner) you get a private forum to ask, and get answers, to questions.

BT Motorsports
03-13-2004, 11:43 PM
I am sure the SCT option is great, but not for everyone. Besides, I already have money tied up in a tuner from long before SCT existed. I also have a problem with paying 2 or 3x more money to tune a vehicle I already own with hardware from another company when I can tune with what I have. SCT's time and R&D is certainly worth money and most likely as much as they are asking for their product and service, but it isnt for me given what I already have.

you get a private forum to ask, and get answers, to questions.
I do not want to ask questions about their hardware, I want to understand how the hardware (the eec iv in this example) I already have functions. With a true understanding of it and its capabilities, I could tune using the EEC tuner, tweecer or SCT chip AND understand why my changes causethe results they do.

Paul

MIKE 38sc
03-14-2004, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by BT Motorsports
Mike, I must have missed that post, can you direct me to it or his contact info? I am very interested in speaking with him.

Paul

Paul I'd love to provide you with a link to his post but I'm stupid as to the inner workings of interlinking onsite. Do a search for fireguy50 thats his screen name here. You'll see 3 posts by him and as usual for this site he was pretty much ignored when he tried to help out and give some advice. I'm sure he would have gotten a more favourable response if he had showed up flashing many shiny pieces of bling bling or waving a handfull of dyno sheets.;)

DLF
03-14-2004, 12:18 AM
Paul,

I'm not saying you can ask questions about the hardware :(

What I'm saying is you can ask about the EEC-IV functions from someone who helped develop them for Ford. But, their hardware does allow access to more functions than the EEC-Tuner did.

Yes, it's expensive, but I sold my EEC-Tuners, and if you have multiple cars, the add-on for each car isn't the full price, like it is with EEC-Tuners. And, I was having hardware and memory related problems with the EEC-Tuners on my cars.

To each his own.....

I've been tuning my own cars for a few years now, so I understand what you mean, but for someone just starting out, having a real place to ask tuning questions can make all the difference between success and failure. And plev72 sounds like he needed a good place to get help.

BT Motorsports
03-14-2004, 01:37 AM
Mike, thanks for the heads up, you provided enough info for me to contact him.

Doug, your point is noted. Are you at liberty to share the additional features of the SCT software that the tuner does not offer? Are these features specific to the 94+ cars or do they cover the SC back to 89?

Paul

DLF
03-14-2004, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by BT Motorsports
Doug, your point is noted. Are you at liberty to share the additional features of the SCT software that the tuner does not offer? Are these features specific to the 94+ cars or do they cover the SC back to 89?

Paul

I can't do screen shots or anything like that, and I don't know for sure about the earlier cars, but there are more tables/scalars available for my '95. For example, I now have access to the adaptive fuel table, which is important as I can ensure that the computer doesn't try to adjust the WOT fuel table based upon long term fuel trims it learned during part throttle.

If we're ever in the same place again (Carlisle?), I'd be happy to show it to you.

BKB
03-14-2004, 06:15 PM
I have been using the EEC Tuner for about 3 years. I had to teach myself since the boards that were around then sucked and the people that knew how to use it wouldent help. I help anyone i can for free. I have tuned about 5 cars now with excellent results. I have most experiance with mustangs and the GUI. My car is a 94 stang with a 94 SC motor now around 400HP with 50lb injecotrs. I get 25mpg and can drive this thing anywhere and it drives like it was all done from the factory. I will say if you are tuning a good WB is a must. Its way to easy to do damage. The cars i tuned were all done over the computer never seing them in person. So if you need a hand you can e-mail me. It might take me awhile since i just built a new house and things are crazy.

XxSlowpokexX
03-14-2004, 11:48 PM
Does the SCT have datalogging capabilioty?

DLF
03-14-2004, 11:59 PM
Not yet, and it never will for the EEC-IV, just for the EEC-V. I use an FJO Wideband and an Autotap.

XxSlowpokexX
03-15-2004, 12:42 AM
I asked because the Tweecer RT suppossedly does for the earlier EEC's

seawalkersee
03-15-2004, 01:20 AM
Soooo......how many kinds of tuners/tuning boards are available for the mn-12s and which one is the best? The one on TCCOA is not available for the 96-97 yet (so it shows) and I am actually thinkin about puttin the processor out of a 98 moostang in there cause they have more values to check.

Chris

FearThis SC
03-15-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by BKB
I have been using the EEC Tuner for about 3 years. I had to teach myself since the boards that were around then sucked and the people that knew how to use it wouldent help. I help anyone i can for free. I have tuned about 5 cars now with excellent results. I have most experiance with mustangs and the GUI. My car is a 94 stang with a 94 SC motor now around 400HP with 50lb injecotrs. I get 25mpg and can drive this thing anywhere and it drives like it was all done from the factory. I will say if you are tuning a good WB is a must. Its way to easy to do damage. The cars i tuned were all done over the computer never seing them in person. So if you need a hand you can e-mail me. It might take me awhile since i just built a new house and things are crazy.
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