Need local hands on help-Balancer

Shifty-G

Registered User
OMG.. Everyone said to get a balancer before anything else.. Everyone suggested getting a BHJ Balancer.. Well, I'm cheap, and wasn't planning on sooping this car up, so I got an Auto Zone balancer..

Well, it didn't look much like the one that I pulled off, but all books said it was the right part.. Dorman 594-051.

Well, I didn't follow any of the rules on how to install it.. I used minor force with a wood block and hammer, but only enough to get the Crank Bolt to take thread.. Then I used it.. Now the car shakes more than it did before changing it out..

Long story short, It looks like I'm going to have to spend the big bucks to do it the right way.

So, anyone in the Austin area that happens to have a micrometer and the know how to install a BHJ damper, and knows a shop that can bore the thing, please reply back.. Hopefully you will work for beer..

help..

gj:(:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
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Shifty there are a few SC guys in your area but I don't know if they would be qualified for what you want to do. Do a search on Austin TX to locate them. SCandelous is a old timer but I don't see him posting very often in the last few years. There's Illusionforce near you but I'm not sure he would be much help in this instance.

I didn't know that Doorman was offering dampeners for our cars but I can't see why you didn't go with a Ford part. Here are some suggestions in order of what you should do.

1. Return the Autozone part for a full refund and get a Ford damperner and pulley assembly. Check it at the parts counter for hub to ring straightness and if it's good put it on and be done with it. If you are using underdrive pulleys have it nuetral balanced with the pulley you will use first.

2. If you're stuck with the Autozone piece and it came with a pulley installed this one's defective, they should be nuetrally balanced for the SC engine. Exchange it for another and just to be sure take it to a local performance engine machine shop that can do dynamic balancing work. Have them "zero imbalance" balance it with the pulley installed that you will be using.
If you had to use your existing pulley you should just take this dampener off and have it rebalanced as a assembly then retry it. In any case if the outer ring and hub are not parallel with minimal runout get one that is.

3. If you're set on a BHJ (which coming from a long time SC mechanic who wrote the book on the dampener issue isn't a necessity especially on the '94-'95) find a good performance engine machine shop and let them do it. Drive the car there and let them fit the BHJ and make sure it's balanced for you.

I would think that if you knew anyone who could do this and would help for beer you wouldn't be here so good luck on that one.

Here's some in depth reading on the subject:

Here is an overview of the damper situation, problems and their causes and recommended repair methods. This was learned from experience and sharing information with others. I keep it on my hard drive for a ready response to a common problem. The subject of dampener balancing is one that is still debated by long standing members of the SC community and the views expressed by me are from my experience only. It is my opinion that if the original balance can no longer be verified, as is the case with a broken dampener the new assembly installed should be neutral. This article was last updated 3-16-03.

For a good reason to get upset at Ford (as if you don't have enough already) take a closer look at the dampener snout. It is made of aluminum with a steel inner and outer sleeve. Thin steel sleeves. The factory pulley is heavy steel casting with a machined belt surface; this makes it impossible to be balanced without adding weights. Some have more balancing weight than others welded on the pulley. This could be a washer or similar pieces of steel that gets it close but not neutrally balanced. Then to achieve a final neutral balance of the assembly Ford used two methods on SC’s over the years. The first technique used small steel pins inserted into the backside of the dampener hub that has a circle of evenly spaced predrilled holes for balancing weights. As far as I know this was used from ’89 through ’92. Then in ’93 SC dampeners were balanced by drilling to removing material. This limp wristed design can barely handle the stock HP and weight levels; many break of old age. I made the mistake of overdriving the blower with a stock exhaust system and blower top; this increased power and drive loads. That's what broke my OEM unit. I then installed another damper with it’s own pulley out of a junkyard and because of confusing instructions in the Haynes manual I relocated the balance pins to match my old dampener assembly on it. This caused that assembly to be out of balance while still overdriving a blower with stock top and exhaust; I think that one lasted about 4000 miles. After that one broke I bought a complete assembly (pulley and damper) from Ford for less than $200, it comes balanced, and I didn't mess with it. That was my first SC, when I got around to increasing horsepower on my current (2nd) SC I used Auto Specialties under drive pulleys to reduce the damper weight and drive loads. I also did the exhaust and installed a raised top at the same time. These were steps made to increase damper longevity; the increase in performance was secondary at this point.

In efforts to get this figured out and avoid any more breakdowns I took the dampener assembly and both pulleys to a machine shop and had them checked in every configuration. With the stock pulley and pin arrangement, it was neutrally balanced. Then the dampener itself without the pulley but with the balancing pins still in place was out of balance. Then the dampener alone without pins went back to neutral, establishing that the damper itself is neutral. And then the dampener without pins but with the ASP crank pulley that ASP had said would be neutral and it was. ASP’s pulleys are machined perfectly round with precision tolerances from billet aluminum; therefore are neutral by design and need no after installation rebalancing done. So I installed it like that, ASP pulley without any pins, doing the other tricks to improve durability (top and exhaust and others listed below) and it's been working with lots of HP and hard driving ever since. The engines new smoothness over the swap pin arrangement was immediately evident. If this one ever splits I'll get one of the BHJ steel hub dampeners and that should be the end off it. Since I have acquired another SC, this one is a ’95. At 125K its dampener elastomer failed and the ring walked backwards until it started rubbing the cover then crank-sensor. I purchased another assembly from Ford along with another ASP under-drive pulley set. Because of the long-standing debate over the pins and their true purpose I once again had the machine shop check the initial balance of the stock assembly. This being a ’95 it didn’t have pins but had some holes drilled into the ring from the backside. Once again the assembly was neutral from Ford and needed to be rebalanced to remain neutral after the ASP pulley was installed.

Which type of crank pulley do you have, stock or ASP under-drive? If you do have under-drive pulleys already and you didn't remove all the balance pins from the factory dampener then that’s probably why it failed. They are fragile and without proper care will break anyways. The factory dampeners are neutral; the pins are used for the unbalanced and heavy pulley. With an ASP pulley all pins should be removed to balance it out. If you use a stock pulley and dampener from two different engines you will need to have the assembly dynamically balanced for the new combination. You would be better off using an Auto Specialties pulley set, not only will it lessen the load on the next dampener greatly, it can be installed on a dampener without re-balancing.

The best thing to do would be to replace the dampener with one of the new aftermarket ones that Steve Webb (blackbirdsc) sourced out from BHJ and using the ASP pulleys. If you don't have the money for it then you should at least get another Ford dampener and pulley assembly. They come with the pulley installed and balanced. Hopefully they're still available. And how much do these assemblies run nowadays? Mine was under $200 but that was several years ago, it could be that the BHJ unit is competitive now. Just be aware that more power and airflow along with bottlenecks anywhere in the system could cause it to break again. If you find one from the salvage yard then try to get it with the pulley still attached. This way you don't have to spend the time and bucks rebalancing it. If you go with another dampener and your old pulley then it needs to be balanced as a unit. Also be aware that the Ford dampener’s shaft sleeve wears out or takes a setting to the crank over time and should be considered as disposable. Using a salvage part is risky and should be done as a last resort. With any damper the proper tools have to be used during removal and installation to prevent shaft sleeve warping or stretching, it you use a hammer of any kind on this part you won’t do it the next time.

As far as getting the old bolt out it’s best to use a reverse cutting drill bit along with a reversing drill. Usually the drill bit will only get in so far before the bolt shaft starts twisting out of the crank snout. If you use a right angle drill adapter you won’t have to remove the radiator. They cost about $15 at Home Depot. As long as you didn't use lock-tite on it, it should come right out. If you did, and I did once, just heat it up first. Ford doesn’t use lock-tite here. As for a replacement bolt, get a new one from Ford for the late model Mustang 3.8 along with its washer. They redesigned it and the washer for more strength. This is why they discontinued the SC bolt, it would be nice if they cross referenced it to the old part number but they didn’t and cause many a panic attack among SC owners. Use the maximum recommended torque on install. In fact find out if they raised this torque specification for the Mustangs new bigger hardware, and if so, use the larger torque. Our cranks are stronger than the normal 3.8’s and it can take it without any problems.

Ford part numbers for the Mustang bolt and washer are:
Crank bolt F58Z-6A340-A
Crank bolt washer E2DZ-6378-A

To remove the piece of dampener still inside the timing cover you need to remove the old seal. You needed a new front seal anyways. Try tapping a putty knife behind the lip then prying it out. Then use small hooked pry-bars or tools to pull the ring shaped remnant off the crank timing gear. If it is stuck be sure to pry from two opposite sides at the same time. It usually slides right off.

Another thing for the wise to do is replace the woodruff key with a new one. These things develop some slack with use and once a dampener has broken loose on one it is useless. Without a tight fit the next dampener will fail soon. I hate Pep boys but they had these things in bulk, try Ford first. This requires timing chain removal so now would be the time to renew it if you chose.

My crank sensors never got hit by the broken dampener but it's always a possibility so do look carefully. In fact as troublesome as the crank sensor is now would be a good time to replace it. If you do just make sure the vanes on the back of the dampener slide into the sensor groove on install otherwise a sensor misalignment could crush the sensor and or bend the vane on the back of the dampener.

In theory the weak hub could develop a fatigue fracture failure due to erratic crank momentum. If you have an ignition misfire you should know it, but what about a clogged or stuck injector? They could cause abnormally high crank harmonics that would accelerate wear. Maybe a good injector flush would be cheap insurance. In this same line of thinking a bad A/C compressor could stress the dampener in this way and I’ve heard of two occasions when clutch chatter immediately preceded a balancer failure. Does yours run smoothly?

A large throttle body increases HP not only from more CFM but also by reducing blower vacuum drag on the rotors; thereby it reduces pulley loads also.

Sorry for the long lesson but I the more you know the better your chances of figuring it out. I had to learn all this stuff the hard way on my own so I like to share when I can as others have here with me.

Vernon
 
Vernon-
Mucho ~e mas gracias.. Excellent lesson.. I had no idea that the pulley had to be balanced to the damper. In fact, i didn't install the stock pulley until I had already put the damper on the crank shaft. I also had a tough time with one of the bolts on the pulley so it is probably cross threaded now.. I'm such an idiot.. One of the bolts bent when I was trying to tighten the crank bolt (used a screwdriver wedged between two pulley bolts to lock the crank, so i had to use a different bolt all together for the 4th hole..) I'm betting that I've ruined this balancer now- But I'll try pulling it off, and getting a shop to match the pulley and damper together before I right off this $144 auto zone unit Although this is one of those parts that you should be reluctant to try the "universal fit" aftermarket version.. the Ford unit is now almost $300, and I don't think it comes with pulley installed.

Because my plans are only to use this car as a daily driver, I didn't want to fork out the big dough for the BJH model-Not to mention the lack of qualified personnel in the area to actually do the install.
Anyway, thanks again for the insight.. I'll try all that is suggested.

Are you coming up to Austin the week of 4/17 for the rally?
 
No problem Shifty, it happens to all of us sooner or later and you're just the newbie.

I'm thinking I'll make the rally if I can but at this point I can't say for sure. We are planning a H-town Blower Crew meet near the end of April also. If we do it would be in the '94 5-speed which is very stock at this point.

Here's some more SC information I realized you need by reading your new post.

The SC dampener and pulley are made with one of the four bolt holes slightly offset. This is so that it can only go together one way. This maintains the balance after reassembly and keeps the timing mark in the proper position. When you get yours back off check to see that you didn't acidently screw this up by forcing the bolts when it wasn't lined up correctly.

A better way to lock the crank for torqueing bolts and the crank bolt is to put it into 5gh gear on the stick cars or using a screwdriver or socket to jam a hole in the flywheel to the oil pan on either type. Just make sure remove it before starting it back up. Don't ask me how I know.

If you can get the pulley on correctly and have it balanced use the Autozone dampener, it will feel smooth and be fine.

Yes the Ford unit has gone up but it does come with the pulley installed and balanced, so you can just bolt it on and go.

I agree with you on the BHJ in your situation. I've had excellent life on properly set up Ford units and I drive them hard. My '91 has had the Ford unit in service for years now and hits 6000 RPM numerous times a week.

Vernon
 
I just replaced my dampner and sensor this weekend. The dampner came for 5 Star Ford with pulley installed, cost $288.00. The sensor came from O'Reilly and cost $53.00.

I placed my car in fourth gear, pulled the e-brake as tight as it would go, and was able to torque the crank bolt. (had to call Vernon Friday night to understand now to make the crank stop turning)

Good luck.
 
Now that explains every problem I had during reinstall..

I had no idea that there was an offset bolt on the pulley- But I read somewhere that it only goes on one way..

Once I get it all back a part.. If I can use the Autozone unit, what do you use to actually reinstall it? I only had to give it a nudge to get it on enough for the crank bolt to draw it the rest of the way, but now that I recall, I put a large socket (38 mm I think) inside the balancer and whacked it a couple of times.. since this is very close to the center of the damper, and it only made contact with the bold and washer, I'm betting that I'll be okay- The question to be answered is 'did I mess up the balancer by putting the pulley bolts in and trying to torque it tight, or did I mess up the balnacer by cross treading the last pulley bolt..

answers to these questions will come today or tomorrow..

Will a standered machine shop be able to balance these units together once I get them off, or should I look for a specialty shop?

Thanks again for the good reading.. I wish I had done more research..
 
Well, y'all were right. I pull the damper off and checked the pulley holes.. Offset.. On the original damper you can clearly see the difference. I'm off to Auto zone to get my money back (I hope) then I'll start my search for the dealer part.

By the way, where is the sensor located if I chose the change that out, what does it do, and is it easy to replace?


Thanks again, y'all..

gj
 
Shifty-G
There is a BHJ Group buy by Blue Tounge going on now.

I bought 4 of them direct from BHJ for my own cars which qualified me as a distributor. I have to go to Bell Helicoter this AM but when I get back I can look up the cost as they just went up the 15th, today of all things but not by much. Seems like the group buy was a pretty good deal as I recall. Don't have time right now to look, but glad to help if you are set on BHJ. Of course it is a heavier unit. I have not put one on yet as another car is in the way in the garage for other work. With 2 bad ones it was the only way I wanted to go. Although I wish I could get a fluid filled balancer instead but that is another story.
Doug
 
Doug,
Thanks. If you can let me know what the price would be before the end of the day or by tomorrow morning, that would be great. I'm still going to try to locate a Ford unit, but will wait for your reply before I do the purchase.

Thanks again.. Maybe I can learn to be the one locally that can be the install expert for the Austin area.. :)
 
Click SC Literature on SCCOA home page, scroll to the bottom where "articles written by members", and y'all find instructions for the Crank sensor.
http://www.sccoa.com/articles/crankshaftsensor.php

The sensor is mounted on the front of the engine just behind the dampener. It's small, black in color, and has a place for the metal ring behind the dampener to ride in. A wire harness runs from it up the DIS area, and has two plugs at the end of the harness. The only thing required to remove it is a 5.5mm wrench to remove the two bolts holding it on. If your car still has the plastic covering behind the dampner, it will need to be removed in order to replace and adjust the sensor. Just did mine this last weekend.

Install the new dampner, remove the sensor, position new sensor, lightly snug the bolts, take a match book (small kind from bar) and insert a piece between the sensor and metal ring (outside edge of ring) and then move the sensor inward until the gap is closed. Tighten bolts 20 inch pounds, rotate crank to next ring position and make sure the match book will insert. The ring has three places where the gap will need to be checked.

Next, remove the paper gapper completely, and rotate the crank to make sure the sensor isn't touching the inside edge of the dampener ring. Should be able see light on both sides of the ring. I used a shop light and flashlight.

Something I read in someone's instructions, think of brake pads inside the caliper and on the rotor. Should be even, not cocked at.

I hope this helps.
 
FoMoCo Balancer BACKORDER??

OMG, My quest just keeps getting better. Went to the local dealership in town to order a new factory balancer. Got a pretty good deal as a buddy works for the dealer and was able to get the price 10% over cost.. NATIONWIDE BACKORDER!!

So, the car will sit for a while longer. My plans are to install my stereo (This should keep me busy for a weekend) then I'm trying to figure out some other things. I'll start a different post for that, but my question here is-

Does this part go on back order often? Would it be worth my while to buy 2?
 
oops forgot tell you how much for BHJ. They are available. Heavier but available. I will try to PM you tomorrow. I will have to call them.
Sorry,
Doug
 
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