new motor won't idle

T-bird4vr

Registered User
The car won't idle. I am getting 10mmHg Vac at a forced idle. There is a lifter that hasn't pumped up yet. My vac lines appear to be correct but something is obviously wrong.
The mechanic says it acts like the timeing is retarded.

There are no vac leaks that we could find with carb cleaner.

Does anyone have advice on where to start.
Thanks
Miller
 
Have you double checked the cam sensor to make sure it's set right?

Did you install a bigger cam? If so that could explain why you have less vacum and won't idle. Depening on the duration of the cam you might need the chip reburnt to raise the idle rpm. Hope this helps.
 
hey T-bird4vr

I was told many times that these cars and there complicated EECs need time too learn and adjust.... I didn't believe that at first but it is true when I dropped my motor in it ran like crap and wouln't Idle at all till I started too drive it then it would die...... The EEC has to take in all kinds of info to get the correct settings.. The car must first be brought up to correct operating temp before the EEC can learn to adjust.. It took me a good 4-5 sessions of bringing it up to temp and driving before it finally started idleing right I too had no vac leaks but it just takes time to learn outside tempature and engine temp can have extreme effects on the system.. These cars cycle info and tend too keep repeating the cycle over and over so if it is running bad give it so time to cycle out the bad input and correct itselfs..... With that said have you drove it at all for an extended period of time like lets say a good half hour?
 
Oh yeah

I found it real helpful to pull and clear the codes after every session just so you know you are getting a fresh start...
 
Do you have a modified EEC with a chip???

I read over on TBU that you deleated the EGR so that is your first problem... The EGR is used only during start up and extended periods of idle... In cold weather the EGR lets heated gas in to bring the operating temp up ... I have to keep my rpms up during start up to compensate for no EGR it takes about 5 minutes before it will Idle correct .. The motor has to be good and warm... Another thing the EGR does is kept the idle right in traffic because you have low fuel pressure you are not giving it gas so the EEC compensates by letting heated gas in to keep it rich kinda like running on fumes... This is not a problem if you have no vac leaks should the CEL come on just give it a little gas and the CEL light will go off hence more fuel pressure.... I always have a code for insufficent EGR flow but it is not a problem and does not effect performance only during start up it is kinda like having no automatic choke since you have deleated the EGR... Good LUCK let us know ...
 
"I read over on TBU that you deleated the EGR so that is your first problem... The EGR is used only during start up and extended periods of idle... In cold weather the EGR lets heated gas in to bring the operating temp up ... I have to keep my rpms up during start up to compensate for no EGR it takes about 5 minutes before it will Idle correct .. The motor has to be good and warm... Another thing the EGR does is kept the idle right in traffic because you have low fuel pressure you are not giving it gas so the EEC compensates by letting heated gas in to keep it rich kinda like running on fumes... This is not a problem if you have no vac leaks should the CEL come on just give it a little gas and the CEL light will go off hence more fuel pressure.... I always have a code for insufficent EGR flow but it is not a problem and does not effect performance only during start up it is kinda like having no automatic choke since you have deleated the EGR... Good LUCK let us know ..."



ALL OF THE ABOVE IS INCORRECT!!! stocker 89, get online and do a simple google search on how EGRs work before you get in over your head.

EGR should be closed at idle and at wide open throttle. The EGR exhaust gas recirculation is an emission device that allows burnt exhaust gas to be reintroduced back into the intake to lower combustion temps. This allows the computer to add timing at part throttle without detonation and lower NOx (nitrogen oxide) emissions.

If you have a stock cam you should get around 20 In Hg. I almost guarantee you have a vacuum leak. I use Permatex® Anaerobic Gasket Maker
51813.jpg
on the IC tubes and the SC top. It's easier to remove the next time you take it apart, or you can use RTV Ultra Copper. You can check timing by pulling the spark SPOUT jumper and using a timing light to see if it's close. If it's way out, you may have to get a ford cam synchronizer tool to set the cam sensor back in sync.
 
Shockwave

Duh you you dissapoint me cause I use to have respect for you .... True it does help cool the motor when ideling in traffic the heated gas helps to cool the cylinders this is what happens when you give a car gas it cools the cylinders gas is cold... My car used to start right up and idle... Not anymore since I removed the EGR .. My car never used to throw a CEL when ideling does now eversince I took off the EGR it will even shut itself off if I let it go long enough without giving it gas it is the same code eveytime insufficient EGR flow.. As long as the motor is getting plenty of fuel there is no code... You can believe what you want to believe around here we have no stinking emissions laws that are a bunch of BS created by a bunch of enviormentalist freaks who a jealous over big money oil guess what the earth is still gonna be here when the gas is gone .... I could see how burning wasted exhaust fumes would be help full especially for a car that runs so rich...lots of people don't relize how much raw fuel is not getting burnt a working EGR will also help to get better gas milage..



IF it is closed at idle and WOT then when is it used ya bonehead.. true I do agree it is closed at WOT and any throttle for that matter.... but for extended periods of idle this is when it is used when you are stuck it traffic and combustion chambers need cooling.. Read what you wrote...

This allows computer to add throttle without detonation... Exhaust gas recirculation so motor does not detonate
 
Hey catalytic converters are supposed to be a emissions device.

They also provide backpressure which a Forced induction motor needs to create max boost...If your car is running too rich your exhaust will start stinking like rotten Eggs that is because cats are made of sulfer which is supposed to absorb harmful emissions hence raw fuel the cats catch the raw fuel and burn it before it can be thrown into the atmosphere...
 
T-bird4vr

I see you have a chip. Did you have it burnt to deleate the EGR? I always thought you had to have a running motor before you could burn a chip so you could program it for your modified motor... If your last motor was running real bad this could be the problem the EEC is still operating as if you have blown HGs and doesn't know how to react to a a efficient motor...
 
Julian,

I think your problem is related to the clicking lifter. Pull the plug wires one by one on the side of the engine the clicking noise is coming from. If pulling one of the wires doesn't seem to have much effect on the idle...a valve on that cylinder may be hanging open or there is some other problem with the valvetrain.

BTW, What kind of rockers are you using ? I screwed up once and used a crane adjuster nut on one of my comp cam rockers..30 seconds after starting the motor it seized the rocker and held the valve open slightly and did the same thing you are describing.

David
 
To Stocker 89:

I was way too hard on you, and I apologize for that. I have to quit posting at 4:00 a.m. If the EGR is open at idle ,you will have a vacuum leak. Also on a MAF car any air that enters past the MAF is a vacuum leak and will not be accounted for. So a leak in the PVC fresh air system or the EGR will be air that is entering the engine without the proper amount of fuel to go with it. This causes a lean condition. Even a very small leak almost can cause cold start dying , idle problems and stalling.

Years ago I had carbon chunks sticking my 83 T-Birds EGR open. You would be driving down the highway and everything would be working great. Then I would pull off and the car would die at the exit of the off ramp. I would have to drive with two feet at stop signs until I got home. Then Pull the EGR and clean it. The intake was carboned up because the previous owner had bad O2s and the car ran rich for quite some time. I changed the O2s and it started burning that carbon out right into the EGR.

The EGR opens on part throttle conditions. It doesn’t not open at idle or during WOT. Don't take my word on that do some research. If you can find information different post it, and we all will learn something.

Having the EGR disconnected will throw a code. The timing will be affected as well. How did you block off the EGR? With the non-egr car's block off plate or did you leave it connected? If it's still on the car are you sure it's closed? Did you disconnect the EGR vacuum line from the EGR solenoid? If your EGR is partially open you will have a vacuum leak. They get carboned up and don't seat. You can get a new one from $50-$100 at Carquest. There is no performance lost with a EGR as it's closed at WOT. The only reason I would delete it on my car is because it's a pain in the *** to remove when pulling the blower.

There are three components to the EGR:

1: EGR solenoid which is just a solenoid valve that pulses open and close via the EEC to apply vacuum to the EGR diaphragm. This has a built in vent so that the diaphragm can vent and allow the EGR to close. If the vent and screen are damaged you can get a small vacuum leak from this part. I had this happen on my 89 SC and in cold weather 30 degrees and colder the car would die as soon as it would start. After about 15 seconds of running everything would be fine. When I pulled the solenoid valve the vent and top were missing. $30 later the part was replaced and no more problems for the last 2 years.

2. EGR PFE which is a backpressure sensor that measures exhaust backpressure via a gray silicone hose running the EGR exhaust tube. When the EGR opens the back pressure drops and the amount is sent to the EEC and by this it determines how open the EGR is.

3. EGR valve which is just a valve that is operated by vacuum diaphragm. It's very simple and the design the SC uses is much better at not clogging up than earlier design IMHO.


If you want to remove the EGR, remove it and block off the port with a plate. Then get a EEC tuner or get a chip burned with the EGR turned off inside the programming.

What David Neibert is saying makes a lot of sense. If the valves are not opening and closing at the right times vacuum wont be correct.




Jerry
 
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Shockwave I still got respect for you..

Still not absolutly sure if your a total bone head or not... LOL

I agree with everything you are saying about the EGR but what you are forgetting is that this is a supercharged car so not only can it use vacume to recirculate exhaust fumes it also has the benefits of the boost coming from the supecharger ... Yes a vac leak can occur if you do not have catalytic converters or corect backpressure this is the reason you need cats if you are using a EGR .. I don't have cats this is why me EGR is blocked of with a plate at the intake... I still have the PFE sensor hooked up... So when my EEC calls for vacume from the servo to open the EGR it is like it is working except for one problem the gas fumes can't pass through the metal plate so when the ACT sensor senses there is no cooling effect from the EGR it throws the code.... insufficient EGR flow....
 
fellas

Guys, I tried posting a reply this moring but the damn 56k dialup at home keeps dropping me.

David, Thanks for the advice it was helpful and you are close to on the money.

Today after letting the engine run a while (forced idle) the lifters are quieter and vacuum is up to almost 20 in Hg. It still will not idle but there is still some lifter noise.

The plan is to drive it around some tomorrow and maybe it will come out of it. I was only getting 10in Hg on tuesday so it is getting close if it would only idle.

It is reving a LOT better today as well. I drove it about 15 miles today.

So.. basically the mechanic and I were both surprised that the lifter nosie would effect the vacuum pressure as much as it has. But it still won't idle. We adjusted the TB butterfly stop to get it to idle.

I pray the thing will fix itself from driving it.

Thanks,
Julian
 
oh I forgot

David - stock rockers (I'm not a big dog yet)

Stocker 89, turbos are more efficient than superchargers :)
and yes Brian deleted the egr for me. I double checked with him that he burned the correct chip, but he did.

It does seem to be running rich. I'm at 32psi fuel pressure at idle, should I lower this or just wait until Brian dyno tunes it. I may just call him in the morning.

Thanks all
Julian
 
T-bird4vr

I would say your fuel pressure is good at idle.. But what the heck do I know it is your car right....You do have bigger injectors.

I would think getting the dyno tune with it up and running would be the best solution to solve all your problems...

As far as your little comment about turbos being more efficient than superchargers I have one thing to say I will already be into 5psi of boost before you are spooled up and if i get a bigger supercharger that pushes 25psi I'm gonna get there faster than a turbo would...

Anyway, I hope things continue to get better for you and your SC its such a good feeling to BOOST when it is all good its sure to bring a smile to yo face.

Shockwave, I have always been under the assumption that superchargers create alot of heat especially when you are stuck in traffic on a 95 degree day this was the reason for the ACT (air charge temp sensor) letting in exhaust gas fumes was a way to cool the charge... Who knows maybe I am crazy SC crazy that is... You could always use some NOS yeah that would cool the charge ah huh fo sure....

I'm out.......
 
STOCKER 89

Turbos are more efficent then the Roots blower. The roots is around 40-45% efficent and the WORST possible way of making boost. It takes about 65hp to spin the ROOTS and a proper sized turbo will reduce power under 20HP do to back pressure. Efficency has to do with heat and power, A roots exit temps are over double of a proper sized turbo at the same boost levels. You need to read, you know just enough to make a *** out of yourself. You still have no idea how a EGR works
 
hey,
lets not get on the turbo sc rant again. I only said that to tease you a little stocker. Don't take it the wrong way.


Well today I'm going to wire up the auto-meter boost gauge, maybe play with the fuel pressure slightly, put the wipers and trim back on and then I'm freaking driving it until the dang lifters shut up. If they become quiet and it still won't idle we will have to do some more hunting.

I hate relying on a problem to fix itself but the way yesterday went it might happen today.

Cheers
Julian
 
hahahahahah

T-bird4vr I knew you were joking if anybody has been following the sccoa forums they would know I despise turbos cause they a for girls who don't know any better and if you really thought turbos were better than a supercharger then you would be using turbo but you are not you are using a supercharger...


BKB if you think for one second that a turbo is better than a supercharger then you are for sure a (name calling deleted by Admin - George Davenport) that will believe anything a sales man says to try and get you to buy the car.. If the makers of the new GTO , lighting , mustangs thought a turbo was better than a supercharger then they would be using turbos... Guess what they use superchargers... A super charger will get you out of the hole faster .... When it comes to things like HP and heat issues no need to disscuse cause there is a simple fix just use a motor with more horsepower... Bigger engines need bigger blowers and more cooling because they create more heat.

I know how the EGR works on my application... SUPERCHARGED

Admin Note: Take a deep breath and read the rules here:

http://sccoa.com/forums/announcement.php?s=&forumid=36
 
BKB if you think for one second that a turbo is better than a supercharger then you are for sure a (quoted name calling deleted by Admin - George Davenport) that will believe anything a sales man says to try and get you to buy the car..

Stocker 89,

I believe that a turbocharged engine has the potential to make more power than a roots or centrifical style supercharged engine of the same displacment. If you disagree..that's okay, just don't tell people they are dumb or call them names because you disagree.

IMO, Superchargers are used because they are easier to package, practically maintiance free, easier to tune and don't require all the complicated plumbing of a turbo. For an automobile manufacturer, it's cheaper to use a supercharger.

I think your recent name calling episodes are childish and you need to stop it and apoligize to a couple people.

David
 
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