No Front Brakes after Front Pad Replacement

thewood

Registered User
I just replaced my front pads and now the pedal is extremely spongy. This is what I did.
Jacked car and removed the front wheels and removed the caliper locking pins on both sides. Pulled both calipers off (but not the brake line) and balanced them on a jack stand. Using a c-clamp I bottomed the caliper back and removed the old pads with the new ones. I reinstalled the locking pins with a dab of silicone grease on the shaft. One strange thing happened. None of the locking pins seated back to its original location. I torque then to 25foot pounds. I’m wondering if the calipers didn't go back on correctly. I found it strange that the pins didn't go back to their original height but I assumed that was because of the new pads.

I didn't assume that I need to bleed the brakes since I didn't remove the brake lines. I'm doing that now.. but it started to rain and I came in to get dry.

One more question. The Book says that I don't have to have the accumulator on when doing the front brakes... but I bled them with it on anyway and it appeared to be less spongy. The accumulator ran for about 2 minutes while I bled the front system. There was lots of bubbles on the front passenger side. As soon as it stops raining I'm gonna put the wheels back on and take it for a spin.

About an hour later No luck.. I think the old bottoming the passengers side caliper piston did it in. I can't seem to get any fluid buildup there.. Just bubbles and the bleeder valve was extremely hard to work. Gonna look at it again tomorrow.. Dark windy and raining right now.
 
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Hmmm

There is a special tool you should use to push the caliper in.. Strange that they are sponge maybe you did some damage to the calipers.. I had a similar problem once the longer I drove the car the better they got over time so just take it real easy at first... Acuumulator and pump are mostly for the back breaks it does and some power assist to the front. Lock pins self adjust tighter as the pads get worn.. About all you can do is keep bleeding them till you are absolutly sure there is no air in them..
 
Spongy Brakes after Pad and Caliper Replacement

stocker 89 said:
There is a special tool you should use to push the caliper in.. Strange that they are sponge maybe you did some damage to the calipers.. I had a similar problem once the longer I drove the car the better they got over time so just take it real easy at first... Acuumulator and pump are mostly for the back breaks it does and some power assist to the front. Lock pins self adjust tighter as the pads get worn.. About all you can do is keep bleeding them till you are absolutly sure there is no air in them..
I went down to auto zone and got two remanufactured calipers $42.00 + $50.00 core. Gonna due now. My thinking here is when the bottomed the pistons the insides were rusted and won't pressurize due to a porous surface. I'll let ya know in a few.

About an hour later .. I replaced the suspected caliper and took it for a test drive and the same problem exists. Spongy brakes. I have to pump them to get them to come up to pressure. There's no fluid loss. I'm doing the drivers site caliper now. By chance, could replacing the front pads have also affected the rear calipers? I got pads for them too but there's not really ready. Anyone have a clue here folks?

About a half hour later
Ok I pulled the drivers side wheel and replaced that caliper as well and the same problem exists. Spongy brake peddle and no leaks.

I don't understand what's going on here. I followed all the instruction in the book. It's started with a simple pad replacement and the system went spongy... so I bled the front brakes, no difference. I have to pump them up at least three times to get them up to pressure normally but there's plenty of brake at the bottom of the peddle. If I pump three times the peddle is normal. Suspecting that I may have a bad caliper I picked up two and replaced both and new copper washers and torque the banjo nut to 45 foot pounds and the locking pins to 25 foot pounds... and I still have spongy brakes.

I have new pads for the rear brakes and I'm gonna do them tomorrow and bleed if necessary. Maybe the rears got air in them. I have tomorrow off so I should be able to do this early AM.

Any suggestions??
 
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thewood said:
I have new pads for the rear brakes and I'm gonna do them tomorrow and bleed if necessary. Maybe the rears got air in them. I have tomorrow off so I should be able to do this early AM.

Any suggestions??
I finished the rear pads today. I had to remove the calipers all together to drive the pistons back to bottom. Reassembled them. There's a nice stream of fluid coming from the system during bleeding. I buttoned everything up and insured that everything was torque correctly. Took it for a test drive and ...... SPONGY brakes. So I went down to the local NAPA store to get a bottle of brake fluid and talked to one of the guys behind the counter. He said that there's a little know fact about Ford ABS systems that is undocumented in most of the books. You have to open the bleeder valve before you push the pistons back into bottom otherwise you could blow a seal in the ABS system. Since my book didn't say that, I didn't do that. I also noticed that the pump comes on each time I apply the brakes which from what I've read is a malfunction. I so pissed now. Replacing the entire ABS on this car is BIG BUCKS. So I'm assuming that I blew one of the seals in the ABS system, but I have no idea what to do about that.
No lights or fluid loss, just a soft pedal until you pump it a few times.

Any experts wanna explain this to me and what’s the best coarse of action?
 
I'm not an expert on this or anything, but I just changed my back brake pads last Saturday. Before driving it, the guy helping me just said to pump it until the pedal got firm. I take it you guys just replace them and then immediatly drove the car? I didn't have any problems with the pedal remaining spongy or anything. The only problem I had was the wrong parts :(, I'm selling full set of factory size KVR rotors and pads for a 90 if anyone's interested, check out the "Part for Sale" forum). Anyways, just thought I'd drop my two cents in.

Nick
 
93SuperCoupeBoy said:
I'm not an expert on this or anything, but I just changed my back brake pads last Saturday. Before driving it, the guy helping me just said to pump it until the pedal got firm. I take it you guys just replace them and then immediatly drove the car? I didn't have any problems with the pedal remaining spongy or anything. The only problem I had was the wrong parts :(, I'm selling full set of factory size KVR rotors and pads for a 90 if anyone's interested, check out the "Part for Sale" forum). Anyways, just thought I'd drop my two cents in.

Nick
No, the system was pumped and bled, and pumped and bled, like I said eariler. The pump runs each time I step on the brake now.. which isn't a good sign.
 
I've never heard about damaging any seal in the ABS, although it's always good practice to crack the bleeder when pushing the pistons back. One thing it doesn't force fluid back thru the master cylinder and, second it's behind the piston that the accumulated moisture offen sits (which causes the pistons to rust over time), so bleeding it off is a good thing. I think you still have air in the system and need to re-bleed the front brakes (traditional style), then go to the rears and do it ABS style but building up the accumulator pressure (ignition on and a few pumps of the pedal - as I recall) and then bleeding thru the fluid for about 10 seconds at a shot until all air is gone. When you said you did the back pistons, I assume you did screw them back in 'clockwise' and not just force them back.
 
I'm assuming you're using a good quality brake pad and wiped down the rotors with brake clean before assembly. Sometimes with new pads, you have to put miles on them before they start to grab. If you have switched from semi-metallic pads to organic pads there will be a noticable difference as well.
 
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Joisey Jim said:
I've never heard about damaging any seal in the ABS, although it's always good practice to crack the bleeder when pushing the pistons back. One thing it doesn't force fluid back thru the master cylinder and, second it's behind the piston that the accumulated moisture offen sits (which causes the pistons to rust over time), so bleeding it off is a good thing.

I know that now.. The book I had didn't mention cracking the bleeder so I didn't do that.

Joisey Jim said:
I think you still have air in the system and need to re-bleed the front brakes (traditional style), then go to the rears and do it ABS style but building up the accumulator pressure (ignition on and a few pumps of the pedal - as I recall) and then bleeding thru the fluid for about 10 seconds at a shot until all air is gone. When you said you did the back pistons, I assume you did screw them back in 'clockwise' and not just force them back.

I bled the fronts twice and even change the calipers with a different set but, maybe I need to allow more fluid to go through it? It woudn't hurt...

Joisey Jim said:
then go to the rears and do it ABS style but building up the accumulator pressure (ignition on and a few pumps of the pedal - as I recall) and then bleeding thru the fluid for about 10 seconds at a shot until all air is gone. When you said you did the back pistons, I assume you did screw them back in 'clockwise' and not just force them back.

I've gone through two quarts of fluid bleeding both front and back from the direction in the book.

Joisey Jim said:
I assume you did screw them back in 'clockwise' and not just force them back.

Clockwise like the book said...

I'm gonna do a complete re-bleed this coming weekend. I'm assmuing I can damage something if the pump come on each time I apply the brakes..??
 
Turbo351 said:
I'm assuming you're using a good quality brake pad and wiped down the rotors with brake clean before assembly. Sometimes with new pads, you have to put miles on them before they start to grab. If you have switched from semi-metallic pads to organic pads there will be a noticable difference as well.
The brake pads are Bendix TitanimMetallic on the front and Bendix Asbestos Free on the back. Both are Premium brake parts. Cleaning with done as necessary with brake cleaner.. Caliper were replaced on the front on the second attempt.
 
With most ABS systems it is best to crack the bleeder when pressing the piston back in. This decreases the chance of corrosion that has been kept in the caliper migrates back through the lines to cause issues with hydraulic control valves in the ABS system. It shouldn't lead to a spongy pedal.

I would get someone to help and take a close look at those front brake lines when you are putting high pressure on the brakes. Perhaps they are deforming under pressure giving you the feeling of a spongy brake pedal.

Did you have a solid pedal before you started this process? If this is a 89-92, you could also have a low accumulator charge condition. With a low nitrogen charge, you can feel a spongy pedal as the rubber bladder flexes under the pressure of the fluid.
 
Mike8675309 said:
With most ABS systems it is best to crack the bleeder when pressing the piston back in. This decreases the chance of corrosion that has been kept in the caliper migrates back through the lines to cause issues with hydraulic control valves in the ABS system. It shouldn't lead to a spongy pedal.
I know for sure that I'll never push my front calipers back as described by my friend, Manual! Before I did the front pads, the system worked but could have had an unforeseen problem. When replacing, I balanced the caliper on a jack stand and put no tension on the brake hoses. The outer pad was then removed and I c-clamped the piston back with a the inner pad still on. I reinstalled everything according to book specification and re-inspected. Replacing the fronts developed the problem.
Mike8675309 said:
I would get someone to help and take a close look at those front brake lines when you are putting high pressure on the brakes. Perhaps they are deforming under pressure giving you the feeling of a spongy brake pedal.
That could be an issue and it's worth an inspection but I dought that's my problem.

Mike8675309 said:
If this is a 89-92, you could also have a low accumulator charge condition. With a low nitrogen charge, you can feel a spongy pedal as the rubber bladder flexes under the pressure of the fluid.
Kinda sorta sounds like the problem as I've been reading other problem messages on this board. I do occasionally get a "kick-back" from the brake pedal when I first start the car that was present when I bought it. I thought it was by design but since I've been reading more about ABS now, it's been said that it's one of the symptoms of a faulty accumulator. The car is 14 years old and something was bound to crap out on me during routine maintenance.
 
If the pedal felt firm before the change, and now it doesn't I wouldn't jump at the accumulator as a problem until all other avenues are tried. It's a long shot that it could cause the problem, but possible. The reason why it's a long shot is the low nitrogen pressure would need to be right at the pressure that balances the proper hydraulic pressure in the system. Otherwise the hydraulic pump would overcome the low pressure and basically take the accumulator out of the circut. If there is enough pressure to not have that occur, then there is enough pressure to give you a decent pedal.

Don't count out the lines. Unless they are new, their old too and they will break down, internally, over time.

It is possible that something in the master cylinder is jacked up. So before you decide to just swap out the accumulator, highly consider getting the whole master cylinder rebuilt.
 
Mike8675309 said:
If the pedal felt firm before the change, and now it doesn't I wouldn't jump at the accumulator as a problem until all other avenues are tried. It's a long shot that it could cause the problem, but possible. The reason why it's a long shot is the low nitrogen pressure would need to be right at the pressure that balances the proper hydraulic pressure in the system. Otherwise the hydraulic pump would overcome the low pressure and basically take the accumulator out of the circut. If there is enough pressure to not have that occur, then there is enough pressure to give you a decent pedal.
Don't count out the lines. Unless they are new, their old too and they will break down, internally, over time.
I don't disagree with you here. Brake lines would be a good candidate on a 14 year old car. The reason I was suspecting the accumulator is now that I've been reading more about ABS, my system appears to have some of the symptoms of a ruptured diaphragm except there's no ABS light that comes on during braking rather it stays on longer then expected during initial starting.


Mike8675309 said:
It is possible that something in the master cylinder is jacked up. So before you decide to just swap out the accumulator, highly consider getting the whole master cylinder rebuilt.
Eeee gad... ABS parts are NOT cheep.. Good thing I saved all winter. Let it be a brake line please.
 
No special tool required

stocker 89 said:
There is a special tool you should use to push the caliper in.. Strange that they are sponge maybe you did some damage to the calipers.. I had a similar problem once the longer I drove the car the better they got over time so just take it real easy at first... Acuumulator and pump are mostly for the back breaks it does and some power assist to the front. Lock pins self adjust tighter as the pads get worn.. About all you can do is keep bleeding them till you are absolutly sure there is no air in them..
Several books talk about this special tool you're talking about. They make this special tool for the rear calipers only. According to what I've read, you can use needle nose pliers and be sure to turn the piston clockwise. The books also say that the front caliper piston should be block and c-clamped back to bottom. I used the old inner pad and it worked fine although I did replace both front calipers while troubleshooting the brake pedal "SPONGY" problem after doing the front pads.
 
Okay, I read most of the posts on this and only saw one that stated about new pads. Did you replace your rotors or have them turned. Did you go with a better pad or the cheepy? If you had them turned and went with a cheepy pad it will take a while for your pads to "BREAK IN".

Also how fast did you push the piston back in? The reason you are supposed to crack the bleader is because you will break one of the little valves in the pump. They will let small amounts of fluid by to allow for run out of the rotor. They are not set up for large amounts of run out.

Is the ABS light coming on when the pump is running?

Chris
 
Chris Walker said:
Okay, I read most of the posts on this and only saw one that stated about new pads. Did you replace your rotors or have them turned. Did you go with a better pad or the cheepy?
I used the existing rotors and they didn't need to be turned althought I did take them off to inspect things back there. I used Bendix TitaniuMetallic pads on the front and Bendix non-asbestos pad on the back. These are premium brake parts.

Chris Walker said:
Also how fast did you push the piston back in? The reason you are supposed to crack the bleader is because you will break one of the little valves in the pump. They will let small amounts of fluid by to allow for run out of the rotor. They are not set up for large amounts of run out.

Is the ABS light coming on when the pump is running?
The front pistons were pushed back with a c-clamp slowly turning the handle. There's no ABS or brake light when the pump is running but the pump runs each time I apply the brakes. It takes three pumps to get them up to pressure.
 
It sounds like you have ruined the pump. There are a few other things still though that really take an "I need to see it to tell you approach" like how hard are you pressing the pedal when the pump comes on? Are you sure your feeling the abs pump? I know it sounds like a stupid question but I am speaking from expirence. Part of your soft pedal is due to the rotors not being turned. I dont know how "SOFT" your pedal is either. Take it to a FORD shop is my advice. I would be willing to bet the pump is screwed, but it might just need to be bled. You can not do this on your own. The pump needs to be turned on by the ngs (a ford compooter).


Chris
 
*FIXED* Spongy Brakes after Pad and Caliper Replacement

I want to thank everyone here for all there input. It gave me a lot of insight to the ABS system and inspection points.

After carefully reading another book I discovered what the problem was. I have to be the first person to admit I'm not a brake specialist. The Hayne’s manual has much better layout, pictures, and procedures of the front brakes and calipers.

When I did the front brakes I forgot to position the anti-rattle spring finger under caliper arm. It was riding on the side of it and causing a gap between the rotor and the brake pad. This was the cause of the spongy pedal. Once I positioned the spring finger where it was suppose to be the problem cleared and now I have normal brakes. The Chilton’s manual didn’t talk about this and I just forgot where it was before I removed the old pads.

Yes it's a stupid problem, but I never claimed to be auto-intelligent :rolleyes: . I didn’t even have to take the wheels off. I just repositioned it with a small pry tool through one of the rim gaps.
 
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