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View Full Version : M5R2 5 speed transmission rebuild: assistance required



Digitalchaos
05-30-2004, 03:27 PM
Over the time I have owned my car, my M5R2 has been subject to wear slowly degrading the blocker rings and possibly other parts, leading to a grind in second gear.

Essentially this grind occurs only in second, whenever it is selected after a downshift, and when upshifting from first unless shifting very slowly at low rpms.

Do to cost and possible future upgrades which may eliminate the m5r2 from my SC, I would like to rebuild this transmission myself if possible. Therefore, from logic and my current knowledge, it seems the things I must know to perform this will include:

1. A method for diagnosing which parts may be worn to the point of causing misoperation, and the names of these parts.

2. The best source(s) to acquire the necessary replacement parts, from both a quality and price standpoint.

3. The tools, especially unusual tools, which will be required for the process of removing, rebuilding, and reinstalling the transmission. Also sources for any unusual tools or possible substitutions would be useful.

4. The instructions/processes, torque specs, and other various information which will be necessary for a person who has no previous background in this reguard to perform a proper quality rebuild without significant unexpected obstacles, including removal and reinstallation of transmission.

5. The location of any current documented information which would be relevant to this task.

6. The length of time this task normally takes, and any other significant information I have not accounted for.

From what I have kept track of over time, it seems to me that I probably have a worn second gear blocker ring, and the synchronizer assembly itself is ok. I think this due to the fact that only second gear has the problem, and it occured gradually from improper shifting (not me :( ). It also looks like current prices for parts to rebuild the basics are running around 400 dollars, does this seem ballpark? Finally, it doesn't look like the process is overly complicated. From what I can tell, there may be significantly less work involved than in changing motor/trans mounts, hence this is something that could be performed in a day.

Thanks a lot for any help you can offer me!

scbird1
05-30-2004, 04:31 PM
Mine was doing the same thing. It can be done in a day if you know what parts you need before hand. {LONG DAY} It sounds like you need new blockers and if you haven`t rebuilt your shifter, now is a good time.
Getting the bearings out the ends of the shafts are the hard parts but you will figure it out. I have a set of new brass blockers {CHEAP} let me know. The brass rings in the pick are what you need to replace.

fivaxis
05-31-2004, 05:07 AM
I just got mine disassembled, I'm going to rebuild it after I get the parts I need. I will try to do a tutorial on assembling it but it may be a couple weeks before I'm done. Here are some pictures of it coming apart www.fivaxis.com/set4

Digitalchaos
05-31-2004, 07:31 PM
Excellent, thanks for the info so far. I figured it could take a day or two, shouldn't matter too much.

I have been questioning for some time whether to use fiber or copper blockers.

I understand copper can be more durable, but at the same time I have heard reports that it will almost always grind, especially when cold, even when not speed shifting (something I don't do). OTOH, I have also heard that they only grind for a while when new and stop after 'breaking in', then only when speed or power shifting.

As for fiber, I have heard it will essentially last forever when shifted properly. However, I would like to occasionaly let others drive my car and am concerned about reports that it wears quickly when misshifted or otherwise abused.

Essentially, this leaves me undecided about copper or fiber.

What exactly do the rebuild kits, such as that from Southern gear, include?

Keep the info coming everyone, thanks again!

Digitalchaos
06-03-2004, 01:34 AM
bump......

fivaxis
06-03-2004, 10:42 PM
I'm getting started on my tutorial http://www.fivaxis.com/m5r2rebuild/

I ordered the parts today so they should be in sometime next week. I just ordered the parts I needed which came to around $270 shipped.

Digitalchaos
06-04-2004, 01:15 PM
fivaxis; thanks for your assistance, I'm sure your tutorial will be a valuable resource for many owners!

scbird1; I would probably be interested in your brass blockers if I could simply get the issues reguarding brass Vs fiber cleared up.

Would using these brass blockers be worse in our transmission for shifting vs something which uses them stock like a Ranger?

scbird1
06-05-2004, 12:03 AM
Im not sure as to what the issues are but the guy from liberty transmission said that these were the best blockers for our cars. He told me to use regular motor oil like 5w30 but I used GM`s syncromesh in my last trans and it works great. I think the biggest problem is that some have used auto trans fluid with these and they grind but the 5th and reverse are just brass blockers and seem to never ware out. $55.00 shipped and there yours.

Digitalchaos
06-05-2004, 03:51 PM
I have observed a wide selection of different transmission fluids available which seem suitable for our M5R2. These include conventionaly mercon III & V from various brands, synthetic mercon III & V from brands like Mobil 1, blends, and also various brands of syncromesh such as Penzoil syncromesh. I was under the impression that Mercon and especially Syncromesh were trademark names, but apparently not. If I were to use syncromesh, are there both synthetic and conventional types? And which brands make this kind beyond penzoil and GM?

Deep6
06-05-2004, 11:04 PM
I may not be able to offer significant technical assistance to this post, but I have come to the conclusion that if you are willing to take a chance, I think that the M5R2 might make a great transmission if you rebuild it properly and take care of it properly.

I think XR7 Dave was talking about it and it convinced me. But it seems that your best bet is to stick with the fiber syncros. I heard a rumor about some "upgraded" fiber syncros or possibly Carbon Fiber ones which would be stronger and have a higher friction co-efficent.

But nonetheless, I was looking at the photos that Fivaxis posted and I got thinking about an experienced machine shop carefully drilling additional "lightening" holes in each gear and possibly rifle drilling the carrier shafts. The amount of weight reduction may be minimal, but it just might make the transmission a touch edgier than stock and would allow the fiber syncros to last a bit longer.....

Apparently their was a rumor that I heard about a gentleman who had this done to a maserati transmission and it worked well.

Top it off with the B+M shifter and use a quality clutch with a new slave (might as well while the whole thing is off) and you've got something to brag about.

As far as transfluid is concerned, there may be the possibility that the Brass Syncros grind when only certain kinds of trans fluids are used. But I would probably use redline synthetic transfluid myself due to it's superior lubrication properties and it's abiltity to free up a bit more HP....

scbird1
06-06-2004, 12:06 PM
I have drove plenty of these cars with a stick and all I can say is syncromesh is the bomb :D Im going to dump the fluid on the other car as well and change to syncromesh.

Mike8675309
06-06-2004, 02:25 PM
Synchromesh is a fluid design that was developed by General Motors for use in the Tremec transmissions. Since that time it's become a popular fluid and is used in many Chrysler transmissions as well. A specification for it's properties has been issued and now other lubrication companies sell such fluids that they label Synchromesh that meet this GM spec.

Digitalchaos
06-09-2004, 05:10 PM
Ok as usual choices are limited for transmission fluid at the various stores. Among the best I think I have found are Mobil1 syn Dextron/Mercon and Penzoil syncromesh.

Which of these would be the better choice, and are all brands of syncromesh a synthetic fluid?

scbird1
06-09-2004, 08:17 PM
I went to the Chevy dealer for mine $9.50 a qt.

MartianBob
06-10-2004, 11:36 AM
I'm getting started on my tutorial http://www.fivaxis.com/m5r2rebuild/

I ordered the parts today so they should be in sometime next week. I just ordered the parts I needed which came to around $270 shipped.

I checked out your site, very informative. Could you also include some dissasembly tips?

What special tools were required for dissasembly? Or what creative techniques were required to remove some of the pressed bearings without custom tools, etc?

My tranny needs 1,2,and 3 synchros. I've had it out twice for clutch related work but I thought the tranny dissasembly Required special tools.

Any dissasembly advice is apprecieated.

thanks
Bob

fivaxis
06-10-2004, 03:14 PM
I didn't really know that much about it when it was coming apart, but I get my parts soon so I can start putting it back together and finishing the tutorial. The only real special tools you need are some sharp tools to cut out the locking nut tabs, an air hammer and an impact wrench.

Use the air hammer on the back side of the gear on the mainshaft and it pushes the bearing right off. If you don't have an air hammer you might be able to just tap it off with a bar and a hammer.

Here's some pics of disassembly. I will include disassembly tips in the tutorial.

www.fivaxis.com/set4


I checked out your site, very informative. Could you also include some dissasembly tips?

What special tools were required for dissasembly? Or what creative techniques were required to remove some of the pressed bearings without custom tools, etc?

My tranny needs 1,2,and 3 synchros. I've had it out twice for clutch related work but I thought the tranny dissasembly Required special tools.

Any dissasembly advice is apprecieated.

thanks
Bob

fivaxis
06-11-2004, 03:27 AM
Also snap ring pliers are needed, there's 3 snap rings.

I got my parts and got the transmission most of the way together, I updated my tutorial and should have it all done tomorrow.

www.fivaxis.com/m5r2rebuild

Mike Puckett
06-11-2004, 06:05 PM
Here's a copy in jpg of the article I wrote in Charging Thunder a couple of years ago. And definitely go with the fiber blockers and not the brass. The brass are for the truck version and will grind on a speed shift. You can granny shift it Ok with no grind but quick shifting and skipping gears will grind every time. A set lasted only a year in one of my SC's and I went back to the fiber type. The carbon fiber type have been confirmed nonexistent. The M5R2 is pretty easy to rebuild.

Mike Puckett
06-11-2004, 06:12 PM
Here's the last page that would fit on the previous post. Hope this helps

fivaxis
06-11-2004, 07:12 PM
I wish I had that before I started :p

Deep6
06-11-2004, 08:00 PM
Fivaxis. You've done a fabulous job so far on that write up. The pictures that show each piece of assembly are super!

From what I have seen so far, the task doesn't look that daunting. (other than removing the trans)

If you make a great and detailed write up like this, perhaps we should have access to it in the FAQ section?

fivaxis
06-11-2004, 09:32 PM
Thanks! It's all done now. :D

CaifanSC
06-28-2004, 11:44 PM
Man...just a few days after I read this and guess what!!! 3rd gear starts grinding! sheesh! I've reviewed the tutorial and I think imma tackle the job. Although I wanted to get another trans. and rebuild that and then just swap it in. In order to figure out what needs to be replaced I need to dissasemble the whole trans correct?

iwannanSC
07-11-2004, 08:18 PM
Anyone have Ford part numbers for these?

See I'm replacing my 1st and 2nd gear blockers because 2nd is grinding, and I went through the Ford dealer for the replacements. I have the 2 rings but I don't know which is for 1st and which is for 2nd, and they both have different part numbers. Aren't they supposed to be the same? Also, one seems to have the fiber and the other is all brass. Is this bad?

Here are the part numbers I have:

E9SZ-7107-A (fiber)
F1TZ-7107-G (all brass)

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Matt

fivaxis
07-11-2004, 09:50 PM
1st and 2nd are both the same. The only one that's brass is reverse. Reverse is also a different size (so is 5th)


Anyone have Ford part numbers for these?

See I'm replacing my 1st and 2nd gear blockers because 2nd is grinding, and I went through the Ford dealer for the replacements. I have the 2 rings but I don't know which is for 1st and which is for 2nd, and they both have different part numbers. Aren't they supposed to be the same? Also, one seems to have the fiber and the other is all brass. Is this bad?

Here are the part numbers I have:

E9SZ-7107-A (fiber)
F1TZ-7107-G (all brass)

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Matt

iwannanSC
07-12-2004, 03:21 PM
So do I need to get another E9SZ-7107-A? The two rings seem to be the same size, but the fiber one has one tooth missing in one spot (which I thought was the way it was supposed to be on all the rings).

fivaxis
07-12-2004, 11:34 PM
Get the fiber one. I would buy them all, I got all 5 (excluding reverse) for $130 from Southern Gear.

Micahdogg
07-13-2004, 01:25 PM
For the record, i went with all brass and 5W30, following Liberty's advice, and it did not turn out that hot. 1-2 shift won't engage quickly and 2-3 grinds on a speed shift.

I'm slapping redline MTL in the tranny hoping to get some more wiggle room, but next time (next year?) I'll be installing the fiber blockers again.

Micah

Digitalchaos
07-13-2004, 07:46 PM
Get the fiber one. I would buy them all, I got all 5 (excluding reverse) for $130 from Southern Gear.


You got those for $130? I thought the kit was previously on the order of $300. When did you get those? That is a good price.

Also, should I be considering any of the clutch components at this time? I don't really have any issues with it, except maybe that it engauges abruptly when the pedal is half or more released..

fivaxis
07-13-2004, 09:15 PM
http://yp.bellsouth.com/sites/southerngear/

Here's what I paid about 6 weeks ago

Input shaft seal $5
Other input seal (next to the main input seal) $7
Output shaft seal $5
5 fiber lined blocker rings $130
Small slider ring $75
Shims $20
Plastic spiral oiler (goes on the input shaft next to the bearing - yeah I broke it) $5
2 locking nuts $8 / $10 **Note the larger one I got from Southern Gear was too big and they said they don't carry one for our cars. Check with Ford you may be able to get it through them.

Digitalchaos
07-14-2004, 07:15 PM
Thanks fivaxis.

I will have to familiarize myself with the small slider ring as I do not currently know what it is and hence if I've a need for it.


Also still wondering if I should consider replacing clutch components while the trans is open. It does also shudder sometimes during engagement in first.

Deep6
07-14-2004, 09:58 PM
Your issues with clutch are similar to mine. I had my flywheel replaced with a factory stock one, plus a new C.F. II clutch, pressure plate and T/O bearing. It felt great for about 8 months.

Then it started to engage abruptly with a associated "slamming" feeling. Almost like I was "slapping" the entire drivetrain against the engine's flywheel. I also got alot of "clutch judder" too, I can especially feel it when the clutch is cold first thing in the morning.

The only real way to drive the car smooth is to allow a little clutch slippage between each gear change so the changes feel smooth. Otherwise it gives me a case of the "herky-jerkies" if I release the clutch to quickly.

I want to replace all my syncros and look into possibly lightening components inside slightly to quicken the shifting response. I figure that since you have the whole trans dropped anyway, you ought to look into clutch/flywheel replacement. Also consider replacing your clutch master and slave cylinder too for the best response.

XR7 Dave
07-14-2004, 10:14 PM
You can replace all the parts if you want, a complete kit from Southern Gear which includes all the bearings is $330 last I checked, but most of the time only a few parts actually need changing. Generally I only replace blocker rings (usually reverse is good) and front and rear seals and then install a shim kit on the main shaft. That is all I usually do. I highly recommend Ford OE seals as they are much higher quality and are still a stocked item.

As for the clutch, check the thickness of the disc and the tightness of the springs. Look for any sign of damage to the PP springs and look at the surface for any hot spots. If the slave looks grungy I would consider replacing it. They tend to weep brake fluid which results in corrosion and sometimes sticking of the TO bearing.

Just don't skimp because it sucks to have to take it all apart again. :D