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View Full Version : BHJ Balancer Alert !!!!



Rich Thomson
06-07-2004, 03:51 PM
Anyone who has or anyone going to install the BHJ balancer on their SC you need to be made aware of a problem when using the stock damper to crank bolt. Even the Mustang 3.8L bolt. The BHJ snout is 1/2" thicker than the factory one. The problem is after installing the BHJ damper you will have less than 1/2" of threads holding the damper on to the crankshaft. Enough threads to hold the damper on but not enough to keep the threads from stripping out! :eek: You need a 55mm long 10.9 grade bolt to install the damper correctly. All the BHJ 3.8L balancers are made with the same 2.5" snout depth. If you have already installed yours and used the stock bolt replace it ASAP. Reuse the washer. Damage can and will occur to the crank and balancer. If you need help getting ahold of the correct length bolt I have them for $2 each plus shipping.

http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12-techinfo/cam-install/bhj-oem-balancers.JPG

OEM 2" snouth depth.

http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12-techinfo/cam-install/oem-balancer-3_8l.JPG

BHJ 2.5" snout depth.

http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12-techinfo/cam-install/bhj-balancer-3_8l.JPG

The red line shows how much of the bolt actually is threaded into the crank when using the BHJ. This bolt is the Factory length crank bolt and washer. M14 x 40mm 1.5 pitch With the washer installed it's 35mm long.

http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12-techinfo/cam-install/crank-bolt.JPG

cougarsc
06-07-2004, 04:09 PM
Good info. Can you get the same grade of bolts?

CaifanSC
06-07-2004, 05:12 PM
Awesome information Rich. Im thinking though....perhaps as an alternative, could you cut the extra 1/2" off of the BHJ or is that not recommended?

RichM
06-07-2004, 06:58 PM
Awesome information Rich. Im thinking though....perhaps as an alternative, could you cut the extra 1/2" off of the BHJ or is that not recommended?

You would have to mill 1/2 inch off the front recessed part of the balancer. Otherwise you will run into alignment problems with the pulley and an interferance problem with the timining index pointer on the front of the cam chain cover. A longer bolt would be the best solution.

Has anyone called BHJ and asked WHY?? or more to the point ~~~? I mean that isn't a irrelivant measurment to miss, expecially for 350+ bucks.

Rich Thomson
06-07-2004, 07:06 PM
Class 10.9 Black-Oxide Stl Hex Head Cap Screw M14 Size, 55mm Length, 1.5mm Fine Pitch

Mike8675309
06-07-2004, 09:32 PM
Looks like this should be a sticky post for a few months here in the tech forum and added to the FAQ forum.

Birdman93
06-08-2004, 02:51 AM
Ummm-wouldn't milling material from the BHJ damper change it?? :confused:


Also-need to make sure that you attach a pulley that matches the BHJ balance-using a stock pulley with the BHJ could create some probs as well-learned that while a car here in Iowa was being built.

cudaz101
06-08-2004, 05:11 AM
Nice find RICH...

Mill The Balancer??? You gotta be kidding...Obviously the proper Bolt is the smart solution. So for a BUCK you can sleep at night with no worries...


Brad

suprkoop
06-08-2004, 07:42 AM
Glad you found that.In the process of a hi-po rebuild and that was my next part.Wouldnt want 5 grand and a couple months work in the crapper over a 1 dollar part :eek: :eek: :mad: .Thanks!!!

gldiii
06-08-2004, 11:00 AM
I'm trying to get in contact with Brian at BHJ and will post the information when I hear back from him.

Unfortunately, I have not installed one of these, so I cannot comment at this point. I know they had the stock damper for comparison when they made the original run of these dampers.

We have had no reports of failures of these dampers due to the crank bolt striping out or breaking. I suspect the dampers are mostly held on by the press fit and the key, so it is not a critical issue that would ground any SC/XR7 with the stock or Mustang bolt. I seem to remember the Mustang bolt being slightly longer, but cannot remember for certain.

In any event, it will be good to get the correct bolt for this application. Thanks for bringing this to our attentions, Rich!

Rich Thomson
06-08-2004, 01:05 PM
To add to this thread I already contacted BHJ and I told them of this issue. They were not interested in changing the depth of the snout and verifed the BHJ was 2.5" deep. They told me to call SCP :confused: They told me I was the first :eek: to report this issue. Glad BHJ cares :mad:

I called Bill at SCP and is verified the snout depth was different. He was not aware of the difference in snout depth.

My question is who worked on the BHJ design?

I believe every BHJ installation using the stock Ford bolt is at risk of ripping the threads out and the balancer coming off.

I hope we do not have to hear of horror stories before this information is made comon knowledge to the community.

The Updated Ford crankshaft bolt is not any longer than the stock. The updated crank bolt is tapered and the OEM bolt was not. Both are 10.9 grade.

gldiii
06-08-2004, 01:47 PM
Steve Webb worked with BHJ on the original product. BHJ had samples of both types of dampers.

lube70
06-08-2004, 06:16 PM
Anyway, thanks for the info. I will pass this on to the three NJ guys who have these balancers (Including myself!!!!!!).


Don

joenintiesc
06-08-2004, 07:24 PM
The Updated Ford crankshaft bolt is not any longer than the stock. The updated crank bolt is tapered and the OEM bolt was not. Both are 10.9 grade.

By "updated", do you mean the Mustang bolt (new) that many have been using instead re-using the exisitng stock bolt? I'm pretty sure the Mustang bolt was longer than the stock SC crank bolt.

Well, if the Mustang bolt is not a good fit regardless if it is longer, I'll take one of those bolts your are selling (practically giving away! :D )

Thanks for the update, and it was great meeting you at Carlisle!

BT Motorsports
06-09-2004, 03:31 AM
I'm pretty sure the Mustang bolt was longer than the stock SC crank bolt. The mustang bolt is shorter than the stock SC bolt. It has been recomended as far back as when the initial BHJ group purchase took place that a longer than stock bolt should be used during the installation to ensure proper depth and extending into virgin threads.


Paul

Rich Thomson
06-09-2004, 06:39 AM
Paul, If it was recommended that a longer bolt be used with the BHJ I cannot find anyone (BHJ or SCP) telling the same story. I believe you but my point is anyone selling BHJ balancers had a responsibility to ensure the instructions included with each balancer stated a new bolt was needed. The longer bolt needed is not a common bolt at all. You cannot find it at any local hardware store. Waiting for balancers and engines to fail is not a good way to find out if a problem exists.

Jake
06-09-2004, 01:29 PM
for the price of a BHJ it should come with a bolt that's right for it.

David Neibert
06-09-2004, 01:53 PM
Rich,

Thanks for the heads up...that's the first I've heard of a longer bolt too.

David

BT Motorsports
06-09-2004, 02:38 PM
Paul, If it was recommended that a longer bolt be used with the BHJ I cannot find anyone (BHJ or SCP) telling the same story. I believe you but my point is anyone selling BHJ balancers had a responsibility to ensure the instructions included with each balancer stated a new bolt was needed. The longer bolt needed is not a common bolt at all. You cannot find it at any local hardware store. Waiting for balancers and engines to fail is not a good way to find out if a problem exists.

I have from day one recomended the use of a longer bolt beginning back when Fred informed me of it. This was discussed some time ago and I have stated on numerous occasions not to use the crank bolt from the mustang. The longer bolt is easily located from any fastener supply house or online and I have personally offered it in the past. I cannot make people do something they dont want to obviously.

Paul

Shockwave
06-09-2004, 02:55 PM
I have been on here for four years and even researched the BHJ. I never heard that the Stock Mustang Bolt shouldn't be used. Everybody recommends the Mustang Bolt becasue it's a better design , but I never heard that a longer non Ford bolt should be used instead. I purchased a longer bolt at the hardware store to use during assembly of the stock balancer, but it isn't a 10.9 grade bolt. I use it to help install then switch to the Mustang bolt. It's just irresponsible to sell a $350 part and not include the bolt and washer that needs to be used with the product when stock hardware wont work correctly. :mad:


Jerry

BT Motorsports
06-09-2004, 03:01 PM
It's just irresponsible to sell a $350 part and not include the bolt and washer that needs to be used with the product when stock hardware wont work correctly. Actually, that is incorrect. The BHJ unit will work sufficiently with the stock SC BOLT however that bolt is discontinued. As I said earlier, the mustang bolt is shorter than the SC bolt.
The bolt is not what keeps the balancer on the crank anyway, it simply keeps it centered and perpendicular to the snout, the press fit and key keep the balancer in place.

Paul

Rich Thomson
06-09-2004, 03:48 PM
See my original post I updated the pictures. The bolt on the left is the OEM SC and the one on the right is the Mustang 3.8L. Both are 40mm long.

I Love the EDIT button!

Bill McNeil
06-09-2004, 10:28 PM
Rich,

I think I just used the Mustang bolt in mine.

I've got 30,000+ miles with 300+RWHP on the motor that way.

Ah well. ;)

David Neibert
06-11-2004, 07:42 AM
I ordered 5 bolts and they came in yesterday. If any of you St. Louis area guys who are running with a BHJ dampener need a bolt, come and get it. They were only $1.22 each so it's on the house.

Rich, thanks again for the warning.

David

LJGriggs
06-11-2004, 10:16 AM
The bolt in the "engineering drawing" From McMaster-Carr (part number 91310A848) has the following specifications:
Class 10.9 Black-Oxide Stl Hex Head Cap Screw M16 Size, 60mm Length, 2mm Pitch. This is a larger diameter bolt with slightly coarser threads than stock and will not fit the threads in the crankshaft. :eek:

The OEM bolt (or the Mustang replacement bolt) actually is M14 (14mm diameter) with 1.5mm pitch threads.

In my case, this is not a significant issue. After breaking three stock balancers (prior to getting a BHJ), and having to extract the sheared bolts, the threads towards the face of my crankshaft are basically screwed anyway. (This prevents installing the balancer bolt to the required torque specs.)
I originally intended to use the longer bolt to "catch" the threads deeper in the crank, but upon discovering that they didn't match, I am going to bore and tap new threads to match the new M16 bolt. I will also need to ream a little from the inside diameter of the OEM washer (made for the M14 bolt) to fit the new bolt.

Bottom line, the new M16-2.0 bolt will require tapping new threads, but that may provide additional benefits.

BTW, McMaster-Carr sells the bolts in a pack of 5 for $4.72, online ordering, and they carry a ton of other industrial grade products. Check them out...
www.mcmaster.com/ :)

David Neibert
06-11-2004, 10:25 AM
Larry,

I'm not about to attempt re-drilling and tapping the crank. Rich did mention in his post that the bolt pictured was the same as needed except for the thread size being 1.5 Fine thread instead of 2.0 Coarse thread.

I was also under the impression that the stock bolt was 14mm instead of 16mm. Are you certian that the bolt should be 14mm 1.5 pitch to fit the stock crank ?

If that's the case I'll just buy 14mm bolts.

David

Kurt K
06-11-2004, 10:27 AM
The bolt in the "engineering drawing" From McMaster-Carr (part number 91310A848) has the following specifications:
Class 10.9 Black-Oxide Stl Hex Head Cap Screw M16 Size, 60mm Length, 2mm Pitch. This is a larger diameter bolt with slightly coarser threads than stock and will not fit the threads in the crankshaft. :eek:

The OEM bolt (or the Mustang replacement bolt) actually is M14 (14mm diameter) with 1.5mm pitch threads.

In my case, this is not a significant issue. After breaking three stock balancers (prior to getting a BHJ), and having to extract the sheared bolts, the threads towards the face of my crankshaft are basically screwed anyway. (This prevents installing the balancer bolt to the required torque specs.)
I originally intended to use the longer bolt to "catch" the threads deeper in the crank, but upon discovering that they didn't match, I am going to bore and tap new threads to match the new M16 bolt. I will also need to ream a little from the inside diameter of the OEM washer (made for the M14 bolt) to fit the new bolt.

Bottom line, the new M16-2.0 bolt will require tapping new threads, but that may provide additional benefits.

BTW, McMaster-Carr sells the bolts in a pack of 5 for $4.72, online ordering, and they carry a ton of other industrial grade products. Check them out...
www.mcmaster.com/ :)
This would have been good to know before David ordered the bolts :(

Edit: I see David beat me to the reply button.

David Neibert
06-11-2004, 10:32 AM
This would have been good to know before David ordered the bolts :(

Edit: I see David beat me to the reply button.


Kurt,

It's not a problem...I can return these and get the 14mm bolts by Monday, but I want confirmation on the size before ordering them.

David

LJGriggs
06-11-2004, 10:48 AM
I have a couple of the "OEM - Mustang" bolts (as spares) and when I rec'd the M16-2.0 bolts I did a comparison. The OEM washer won't fit over the M16 and the OEM bolt threads are just a bit "finer" than the 2.0 (they won't "interlock" when you try to fit the threads from the two bolts together). I did a search on the McMaster-Carr website to see if I could find the M14x1.5 at the 60mm length, but didn't locate one with the 10.9 grade specification. That doesn't mean they don't have them, I just didn't find it. (I also didn't find a .25" thick washer with the correct inside and outside diameters to fit the new M16 bolts either...) They have so much stuff, I probably just missed it.

(Their website is worth a visit... but be prepared to spend a little time browsing through the g'zillion items they offer!!!)

gldiii
06-11-2004, 11:02 AM
David, our installation FAQ prepared partially by Dr. Fred lists the damper bolt as a 14mm x 1.5:

http://sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18410&highlight=bhj+damper


I am about 99.9% certain it is a 14mm bolt. I have a bolt at home and will try to measure it later today.

David Neibert
06-11-2004, 11:31 AM
Thanks Larry & George, I'll order the 14mms today.

David

Rich Thomson
06-11-2004, 12:08 PM
You guys are correct I have update my origional post. M14 x 40mm x 1.5 pitch is the stock bolt. You will be looking for a M14 x 60mm 1.5 pitch bolt 10.9 grade. You will get 25mm or .98" of thread engagement with a 55mm long bolt. The crankshaft thread depth allows 38mm or 1.5" total depth.

I have 10 of them on order and will offer them for cost plus shipping. $6 for one bolt and $8 for two bolts shipped first class parcel.

Thanks.

gldiii
06-11-2004, 12:31 PM
Not to be too picky, but the McMaster Carr number on the bolt illustration is for the 2.0 threads. The part number in that illustration will NOT work for this application.

Fuller Metric might have the bolt:

http://www.fullermetric.com/products/hex/DIN%20961-960-10.9_1st_Choice.htm

We just need to make sure the unthreaded part does not extend too far and hits the crank! I believe the unthreaded part is 26mm or a little over an inch on the 60mm bolt. I have not seen how much clearance is there on the BHJ.

BlackbirdSC
06-11-2004, 03:12 PM
Sorry I haven't had time to reply to this until now and apologize now if I upset anyone, but I'm in a rare mood.

George, I still have the dampers that BHJ used to make the first run of 5. I aslo still have my extra from those first 5. All the stock ones are 2.1" and the BHJ is 2.5".

As for thread engagement, it's really not a major issue. For anyone that doesn't know, the standard accepted thread engagement is 1 - 1.5 times bolt diameter. With some larger diameter fine thread applications being less than that. I'm not going to measure the bolt to the extent needed to get the official numbers, but we'll go with the 1 - 1.5 factor.

For a 14mm bolt, that's .551" to .825" engagement. When I got the first balancers in, I tried it on my crankshaft. I didn't measure the exact to the .001" engagement, but a rough measurement was .5" engagement. So, considering that is within accepted engineering best practices, I didn't care. Nor did I measure the stock engagement since it didn't matter.

I have 2 of the first 5 dampers ever made and have installed, removed and reinstalled the 1 (the other is a spare) and have never had a problem in almost 40,000 miles of use. I've even overdriven the blower 23%. I've reused the same stock bolt everytime and it clicks my torque wrench off just fine.

Also, if you think the bolt is doing anything other than keeping the damper from wiggling off the snout of the crank, you really need to talk with an engineer at BHJ, TCI or Pioneer. I'd talked with several other people at various companies before finding BHJ to make these dampers. All of them agree that the stock damper is junk and the bolt breaks because of the damper's aluminum hub fatiging not a bolt failure. For comparison, a small block Chevy uses a 7/16" (.4375") bolt and you NEVER hear of them breaking a bolt. When I worked in the engine shop we even had 2 Chevy 400 small blocks that ran 15,000 miles WITHOUT ANY BOLT AT ALL. Of course the 2nd blew the front main bearing out when it finally fell off.

So, it is different than the stock unit and probably should be updated so as not to scare people that don't know any better. However, the existing units will not magically fail because of the bolt only being engaged 5 or 7 threads. If the Mustang bolt really is shorter than the stocker (I've always reused stock bolts since they're not the problem) then it shouldn't be used. Umm.. think about it... how many threads does a 14mm nut have on it? Umm.. 5? 6 maybe? Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why a nut is made a certain thickness? And why bigger diameter bolts have thicker nuts?

Anyway, my basic opinion is that this is not an issue that should consitute a 'recall' of all damper bolts on BHJ equipped SCs. Nor is it anything that should scare anyone from using a BHJ damper. Motors won't fail because of it... bolts aren't going to snap for no reason... fire won't fall from the sky... cats and dogs won't live together... etc etc etc.

Rich Thomson
06-11-2004, 04:13 PM
If you measure the true amount of thread engagement it is .30" or 4 threads that actually gets into the crank. My rule is subtract .10" for thread tapering from the overall engagement. I still don't follow why you thought you could take away .5" of bolt depth and still be withing engineering specs for thread depth? The factory design used .80" of thread engagement on the stock damper. 103-132 ft lb of torque on 3-4 threads is border line. I am not trying to get BHJ or anyone else reselling them to recall any of their dampers. I have found what I and many others believe to be a potential problem. A $2.00 part is not going to bankrupt anyone. Saving someones engine is priceless.

victor malvar
06-12-2004, 06:40 PM
Thank you for the alert. It's always good to see that there are many members that look out for our best interest in mind. We put alot of good earned money into our Sc's and XR7's I respect everyones opinions on this issue! We admire anyone who will serve as an advocate for those who are not as savvy as others in this fast moving mechanical field. We are all a good group of SC and XR7 enthusiast/ lovers. We are a large bunch. :cool: Any help or assistance has alway's been at the heart of this club "SCCoA". We all try to assist each other. :D with all our Ideas and concerns in our forums! They are a part of what makes us what we are. A Great Club of Ideas and issues. We do have alot of fun together!!! So lets help and keep it fun, inovative, challanging, and helping each other! Thanks to all of you that keep us on our toes and continue to help out others. Thank you! We will have Bolt's if anyone wants/needs one. :confused:

flynbrd
06-12-2004, 07:03 PM
For those of you who had the pleasure of installing this balancer you will know how tight it sits on the cranksnout. Taking the BHJ on and off is a real treat! There is no way this unit will slide down the crank snout.

Rich Thomson
06-18-2004, 03:57 PM
I just got in the longer crank bolts. I verified the bolts fit the crank with the BHJ and will offer them for $6 one $8 for two bolts. If you want the factory washer add another $3 each to the total. Call or e-mail [email protected]

http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12-techinfo/cam-install/balancer-bolts.JPG

http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12-techinfo/cam-install/longer-crank-bolt.JPG

David Neibert
06-18-2004, 04:06 PM
I bought 6 pcs. of the same bolt ($1.00 ea.) and if any of the St. Louis area guys needs one, I've got 3 that are not spoken for. You'll have to come over and pick it up because I'm not shipping them.

David

Rich Thomson
06-18-2004, 07:01 PM
I bought 6 pcs. of the same bolt ($1.00 ea.) and if any of the St. Louis area guys needs one, I've got 3 that are not spoken for. You'll have to come over and pick it up because I'm not shipping them.

David

Sounds great Dave thanks for helping get the bolts out there. Just asking if the bolts look the same as the one I have posted? 10.9 grade? Excellent! I know Victor at Spinning Wheels will also be stocking the new bolts and every BHJ balancer he sells will come with it along with the washer. His will be available on his E-Bay store. If MN12 had sold the BHJ balancers I know every customer who purchased one would be getting a free bolt in the mail :)

pearl95sc
06-18-2004, 07:24 PM
Rich, If you still got one of those bolts available, I need one. Lemme know. Alyn.

David Neibert
06-19-2004, 12:09 AM
Sounds great Dave thanks for helping get the bolts out there. Just asking if the bolts look the same as the one I have posted? 10.9 grade? Excellent! I know Victor at Spinning Wheels will also be stocking the new bolts and every BHJ balancer he sells will come with it along with the washer. His will be available on his E-Bay store. If MN12 had sold the BHJ balancers I know every customer who purchased one would be getting a free bolt in the mail :)

Yes Rich, they look the same as what you posted. Grade 10.9 black oxide 14mm x 1.5 pitch x 60mm.

Now if you can tell me an easy way to lock the motor up (with AOD) so I can change the bolt without an impact wrench, that would be very helpful. With this Griffin radiator and MP FMIC it's a tight fit, so I'll only have room for a breaker bar.

David

Thunder Flee
06-19-2004, 04:44 PM
Hey Dave, I'll take one of those bolts. When are we all going to get together again? If soon I can get it then, that or I'll just make the 45 min trip and bring some beer. Thanks Dave, PJ

David Neibert
06-20-2004, 03:26 PM
PJ,

Feel free to drop by anytime, I'll save a bolt for you.

David

Billabong089
06-20-2004, 04:33 PM
I dont think this really matters, and its a waste of money, how many people have been running these balencers for years, and on cars that make a lot of HP and all that? And how many of these balencers fell off and stripped out the crank? NONE plus those bolts are probably like $2 and that washer is $1, so nice profit ratio.

David Neibert
06-20-2004, 10:02 PM
And how many of these balencers fell off and stripped out the crank?

None yet and maybe none will, but nobody ever broke a lifter retainer until I did a few months ago and that $2 part took out a lifter, custom cam, late model oil pump, the timing cover and I had to get a new balancer. So I'm not taking any chances.

David

Rich Thomson
06-21-2004, 06:50 AM
Dave, You should be able to set the car in a park and it will lock the trans to the engine. Then you can remove the bolt and install the new one. You may have to remove the crank pulley to give yourself more room.

As for this being a waste of money I don't think so. This is not about profit it's about getting the best information out there. (maybe you missed that point) Thoes of you with BHJ balancers who do not want to replace the crank bolt it's your decision. I will say it's wrong to post and mislead others it's a waste of time or money when it's not.

David Neibert
06-21-2004, 07:12 AM
Dave, You should be able to set the car in a park and it will lock the trans to the engine. Then you can remove the bolt and install the new one. You may have to remove the crank pulley to give yourself more room.

Rich,

It doesn't work that way on an automatic, all that does is lock the output side transmission to keep the car from rolling. I'll either have to screw a couple of the pulley retaining bolts into the balancer and hold the balancer from turning with a pry bar, or remove the starter and hold the flex plate with something. Either way is a ~~~~.

David

cudaz101
06-21-2004, 07:21 AM
Rich,

It doesn't work that way on an automatic, all that does is lock the output side transmission to keep the car from rolling. I'll either have to screw a couple of the pulley retaining bolts into the balancer and hold the balancer from turning with a pry bar, or remove the starter and hold the flex plate with something. Either way is a ~~~~.

David


What about a GOOD Strap Wrench??? I use one on my pwr. steering pump installing and it worx slick.


Brad

Billabong089
06-21-2004, 01:02 PM
and my point is , it might happen and it might not, you have no evidence, you have a theory. So who am I misleading, I'm stating my opinion just as you are since all you have is an opinion at this point.

shotbirdsc
06-21-2004, 03:25 PM
Rich, I sent you an email-I would like to get a couple of bolts from you.

Great info on the proper bolt!

I was going to try and find the proper size bolt before I started to change the balancer but this will save a lot of time and $$ trying to find and get it.

Thanks
Eric

Duffy Floyd
06-21-2004, 05:48 PM
Rich,

It doesn't work that way on an automatic, all that does is lock the output side transmission to keep the car from rolling. I'll either have to screw a couple of the pulley retaining bolts into the balancer and hold the balancer from turning with a pry bar, or remove the starter and hold the flex plate with something. Either way is a ~~~~.

David
Dave,

I happened to be in a muffler shop today and picked up one of the industry motorhead rags to pass the time. I saw a tool that is basically a threaded rod that went into a spark plug hole and provide a stop for the piston. This prevented the crank from turning. Might want to do a google and see if you can find such a thing.

David Neibert
06-22-2004, 08:03 AM
Duffy,

I have seen a similar tool used when degreeing a cam, but the thought of holding the engine that way scares me. I could easily make a bar (1/4" x 1" X 18") with two holes drilled to match the pulley retaining bolts. Might need a little clearance for the crank bolt but it should be pretty easy to make.

David

Rich Thomson
06-22-2004, 10:27 AM
I have searched high and low for a tool to hold the crank while installing the bolt. One part I found by KD Tools Universal Pulley Holder 3471

http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/media/KD-3471.jpg


Another I found was Astro Pneumatic 7813
Universal Pulley Holder, Fan Clutch & Camshaft Holder Set


http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/media/AP-7813.jpg

gldiii
06-22-2004, 11:03 AM
David, isn't there a plastic or metal inspection plate on the front of the tranny that you can remove to get a socket or wrench on one of the torque converter to flexplate nuts to hold the crank still?

David Neibert
06-22-2004, 12:08 PM
David, isn't there a plastic or metal inspection plate on the front of the tranny that you can remove to get a socket or wrench on one of the torque converter to flexplate nuts to hold the crank still?

Yes, but unscrewing the crankshaft bolt will turn the flex plate in the direction that loosens the converter bolts. The tool that Rich posted does pretty much the same thing I'm planning to do, which is to make a tool to hold onto two of the four pulley retaining bolts, while unscrewing the crank bolt.

David

cougarsc
06-22-2004, 12:32 PM
Put a 9/16 socket over one of the TQ converter bolts, and slowly turn till it stops. It will stop against the access hole and won't turn. This will work for unbolting and installing the crank bolt.

You can also make that tool out of some flat material, just drill two whole for the pulley bolts.

gldiii
06-22-2004, 01:11 PM
Exactly what I'm talkin' about! LOL

David Neibert
06-22-2004, 02:49 PM
Exactly what I'm talkin' about! LOL

George,

I missunderstood, and thought you were talking about holding onto the bolt with a wrench while someone else unscrews the crank bolt. Thanks for the tip Cougarsc, I'll give it a try.

David

gldiii
06-22-2004, 03:26 PM
It wasn't very clear anyway, cougarsc explained it much better! I like the cool tools Rich has posted, but for as often as I do this, the cheap way is better for me.

Rich Thomson
07-11-2004, 07:10 AM
BHJ Install How-To (http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12how-to/BHJ/BHJ-install.html)


I just finished writing the BHJ Install How-To article. Link is above.

George if you would consider putting something up on the FAQ about the BHJ and the bolt difference. I have the bolts/washers in stock.

Rich

cougarsc
07-11-2004, 10:45 AM
Hey Rich, what about adding RTV sealer to the keyway?

tbirdsc35th
07-11-2004, 12:22 PM
Hi, Rich. It looks like you have everything down pretty well on this. May I add a link to your article on the tips pages of the Registry? Excellent photos.

Have a great Sunday everyone.

BT Motorsports
07-11-2004, 12:22 PM
If a FAQ is going to go up about this, it needs to have detailed information about the actual purpose the bolt serves in addition to the fact that contrary to this statement:
To add to this thread I already contacted BHJ and I told them of this issue. They were not interested in changing the depth of the snout and verifed the BHJ was 2.5" deep. They told me to call SCP They told me I was the first to report this issue. Glad BHJ cares
BHJ does care and they have changed the design to reuse the stock bolt.

Paul

tbirdsc35th
07-11-2004, 12:26 PM
Hi, Paul.

Do I understand then that BHJ has modified the design making the longer bolt an non issue? Just want to get all of this right.

BT Motorsports
07-11-2004, 12:30 PM
The bolt wasn't an issue before and isn't an issue now. I wish that those who are really concerned would contact BHJ or other dampener companys to find out for themselves what it really does. Perhaps I will see if I can get one of the engineers at BHJ to write up a FAQ for us about the purpose and use of the bolt. So to answer your question, yes, the balancer design has been addressed so the bore will now accept the stock length bolt.

Paul

tbirdsc35th
07-11-2004, 12:39 PM
So to answer your question, yes, the balancer design has been addressed so the bore will no(w) accept the stock length bolt.

Paul

That's great. Thanks, Paul. I for one am glad BHJ has provided a better balancer at all. Some of Ford's stuff can really be junk sometimes. I've been lucky so far on my 35th however I keep an eye on that pulley! :-)

Have a great week all.

Shockwave
07-11-2004, 03:22 PM
Let me get this straight. There was no need for the longer bolt, but BHJ redesigned the balancer to use the factory bolt.


I know the bolt just holds the balancer from moving forward. I know that the keyway and the interferance fit are the factors keeping the balancer tight.

I just think it's funny that a non issue brought about a redesign. Sounds like they messed up on the 2.5" snout length from the start. Otherwise if the 2.5" snout depth was designed in for strength why change it. One of the reasons why the balancer should use the longer bolt is for people trying to install with the bolt. It's possible that you might mess up the threads during install if you don't grab enough threads Even when I install my factory balancer, I use a longer bolt for installation then switch back to the factory bolt.

Paul, I don't think anybody thinks the BHJ is a bad product. To me the longer snout depth should make it stronger. Why not just give a longer bolt with the balancer and not redesign? I'm sure the redesign is just a quick adjustment to the CNC program which is why it's being changed. I also agree with you that anybody already running the BHJ with factory bolt will be fine. If you got it installed without incident it will be good.



Jerry

BT Motorsports
07-11-2004, 08:05 PM
Let me get this straight. There was no need for the longer bolt, but BHJ redesigned the balancer to use the factory bolt.


Jerry
There was no need for the longer bolt, however due to the complaints of Rich and concern expressed by George and others, BHJ made a simple change to their programing to satisfy these concerns. This was in no way a redesign, it was an adjustment to the programming in the interest of customer service.
If someone posted a thread the way Rich did about one of my products that didn't need changing but could be changed at no significant cost increase just to keep people happy, I sure would make that change as well. It is cheaper for the CNC to run a few seconds more than to locate, package and distribute bolts. Bottom line, now everyone can be happy :rolleyes:

Paul

gldiii
07-12-2004, 05:47 AM
We have had the installation instructions up on the site for some time now:

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18410

This is the BHJ installation sheet with some additional info from Dr. Fred.

I'm not sure someone could even attempt to install the balancer with a stock bolt, so they could not really mess up the threads with it. The installation instructions suggest a longer bolt or the installation tool.

I think several of us contacted BHJ at around the same time and I have not heard back from them on this change. I'll try and get a hold of them over the next few days and see what is the official word. If there are updated installation instructions, then I will post them as well.

BT Motorsports
07-12-2004, 10:18 AM
George, the official word came from Brian, the same person you spoke with. I asked him about this issues while discussing having an SFI approved balancer custom made for one of my projects and he confirmed they have addressed the issue. The change has already been made and he indicates that the last run of balancers reflects this.

Paul

gldiii
07-12-2004, 10:55 AM
Paul, by offiical, I mean a response directly to me that I can post on the web. As a representive of the club, I had promised I would find out what was going on with the dampers. I have also asked for new instructions, if available, and some other questions.

This in no way represents a lack of faith in what you have posted. Since several people have contacted BHJ on this matter, I just need closure to my correspondence with BHJ. I never contacted BHJ to complain about the situation, I just offered to assist in getting some answers for the club. I am satisfied (as I posted before) that there are no issues with the original configuration. I also agree that if a design change makes more people comfortable with this product, then I'm sure the vendor would want to make that change. The BHJ damper has been an outstanding product and I have not had any problems dealing with BHJ.

cougarsc
07-12-2004, 12:09 PM
The only problem with using the stock bolt was when applying 120-ft-lbs of torque to 5-6 threads on the crank. That could pull or strip the threads on the crank. But luckily no one has had that problem. That was the purpose for using the longer bolt.

BT Motorsports
07-12-2004, 01:39 PM
The only problem with using the stock bolt was when applying 120-ft-lbs of torque to 5-6 threads on the crank. That could pull or strip the threads on the crank. But luckily no one has had that problem. That was the purpose for using the longer bolt.
If everyone who did the install read(s) the instructions George posted and uses the installation tool (which Fred even included the part # to from BHJ), the bolt length again is a non issue.

Paul

Micahdogg
07-12-2004, 02:23 PM
Dave....as for holding the crank from rotating....I've vice gripped the serpentine belt together. specifically over by the AC where the belt runs close to each other. If you have a few pair just wrap a towel around the belts so you don't put teeth marks in, a clamp down good and tight with as many pair and in as many places as you can. Just one pair of grips probably won't be enough, but if you have like 4 pair or so the crank stays pretty solid. I have a bunch of vice grips so I just started gripping all over the place.

Worst case you damage a $18 belt....which ain't as bad as holding the motor by the piston or torque converter nut IMO.

Micah

Nettlesd
07-12-2004, 03:26 PM
If everyone who did the install read(s) the instructions George posted and uses the installation tool (which Fred even included the part # to from BHJ), the bolt length again is a non issue.

Paul

I could be wrong but isn't cougarsc talking about when you are reinstalling the stock/mustang bolt when the damper is on? The article talks about a torque spec of 103 to 132 lb-ft on the damper to crankshaft bolt, and 20 to 28 lb-ft on the pulley to damper bolts. I take that to be when you are installing the bolt and the lb-ft it requires, therefore, it's possible to strip the threads when only 5-6 threads are being used. I think that's what cougarsc is talking about.

gldiii
07-12-2004, 06:45 PM
I just got off the phone with Brian Clarke of BHJ and he is getting one of each style damper and will review them with the BHJ plans and specs on each damper. I'll report back directly from him as soon as I hear his response.

Brian is very committed to customer service from BHJ and wants to thoroughly review all the data before giving his response.

In the meantime, if you are installing a BHJ damper here are my suggestions.

Number one thing is that there is nothing wrong with the damper for this application. Only thing at issue is the bolt and thread engagement in the crank. We have had no reported failures of either the stock or Mustang bolt, but if you have read through all these posts and feel uncomfortable with that bolt, then by all means get another 10.9 bolt in the longer length and size. Several of our vendors now sell this bolt and we have also posted other places to order the bolts. Also, use the big thick washer under the bolt.

Whatever bolt you get, please do not use it to install the balancer! Using it as an install tool may put more stress on it than you would normally see from torqueing it down during the install. Get a longer bolt or rent/buy an installation tool. If you cannot find either of those, get in touch with me about borrowing my installation tool.

The damper installs with a .001 to 0015 interference fit. This means the hole ID (inside diameter) of the damper must be honed to be just slightly smaller than the crank OD (outside diameter). You need an accurate measurement of your crank (no rulers please) to know what that size should be. This will vary a little bit from crank to crank. Use anti-seize on the crank to help with the installation.

Also, please read the directions from BHJ that are included with the damper. If you don' have those directions, please read our copy here:

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18410

minbe
07-12-2004, 11:04 PM
If BHJ has shortened the snout to stock length, might attempting to install the longer than stock bolt risk bottoming the bolt? I have a BHJ that came from the group buy here a couple of months back. Do I have the old, longer BHJ or the newer redisign? I didn't think to measure it when I got it. If I have the longer version I may change the bolt just to get a warm fuzzy. A few bucks and all those extra threads, it just looks stronger.
So how can I tell which one I have?
Mike

gldiii
07-13-2004, 08:33 AM
minbe, I doubt that you have a newer unit. To tell for sure, look at the first post in this thread by Rich. He posted pictures of the BHJ and the stock balancer with measurements.

You want to measure the depth of the sleeve (part of damper with keyway). If it is around 2.5" then you may want to use the longer bolt. If it is around 2" then the stock or Mustang bolt will be all that you need.

Rich also posted info on the depth of the threads in the crank. You can use that info to determine how long a bolt may be used.

I have actually fowarded your question to Brian at BHJ. I'll post his answer when I receive it. (BHJ is on PDT time and I am on EDT.) Hopefully, I have that reply later today.

minbe
07-13-2004, 07:03 PM
Thanks for the reply. I am unable to measure that distance as the balancer is already installed. But if they milled the washeer seat deeper into the balancer on the new version. I should be able to measure the distance between the washer seat area and the flange the pulley sits on. Do you know the stock measurement there? I guess I could just call BHJ with my invoice number and they could tell me.
Thanks
Mike

BT Motorsports
07-14-2004, 01:53 AM
Mike, I just saw your post or I would have answered sooner. Your balancer does not have the update to it so it is like all of the balancers produced from the start and will work with the longer bolt. BHJ did not change the bore depth until this last recent run occured.

Paul