Well, finally made it to the dyno with the Autorotor 1.7L

[XR7 Dave]

And it performed pretty much as expected. :D With only exhaust and IC mods the car made 294rwhp and 382rwtq. This car is bone stock other than the mods mentioned. It has the stock MAF, stock TB, stock airbox, stock tune and everything else.

It ran out of both injectors and MAF signal at about 4200rpm so I believe that 300rwhp is just a set of injectors and MAF away. I don't plan to buy the parts and run back to the dyno imediately so you'll just have to take my word for it that there is plenty of potential there.

I am a little jammed up with "other" jobs at the moment so the AR kit will be available next month at the earliest. If you want to be the first on the block to get one, start making plans now. If you are serious and want to drop me a line to let me know, go ahead and do so. I will be announcing details of purchase availabilty in the Group Purchases Forum when I am ready to begin taking money. Until then all I can say is thanks for being patient!

David

[SilverCasket]

Sounds pretty fabulous Dave! Those things are going to sell like hotcakes & they are going to perform even better!

Good Luck,
Anthony

[Mike8675309]

Would there be a concern that bolting such a kit together will also require new injectors, a new maf and a dyno tune?

Or can such a kit be safely run on a stock motor with no other modifications?

[FastSC]

nice work. I'm sure David can help find a source for chips and tuning for those that need it :)

If this puts a stock longblock with stock heads and cam in the 300RWHP range, I think we will have a lot of 400RWHP cars this summer. Several people worked very hard to break the 400RWHP barrier with no nitrous (with several head gaskets sacroficed), now we are going for the 500RWHP barrier w/o spray. I remember not too long ago when there was about 3 people that could make 300RWHP, and even that was a struggle.

It's definitely good news for this group, and it will probably bring most of the people back who have already exhausted all of their options to make stupid power levels.


Brian

[David Neibert]

Dave,

At what rpms did it make peak TQ and HP ?

David

PS: Isn't that more power than the 2.3 whipple made on the same car ?

[Ken Seegers]

XR7Dave,
What injectors did you have on the car? Do you have a dyno chart?
Thanks
Ken

[FastSC]

David can answer, but I am pretty sure he had stock 30lb injectors on it, and I think it peaked when it ran out of fuel but the curve was still going up.

[XR7 Dave]

It made peak HP at 4600 and peak torque at 3200. Power fell off quick with the injectors at 100% duty cycle. It was also pegging the stock MAF.

You will have to have bigger injectors and fuel pump. There are no two ways about it. I have been driving the SWB with all stock components but it is far from safe and it is limiting the output.

We will have to design a whole new chip program to make full use of this blower due to the entirely different efficiency curve that it has. The usual "tweaks" are not going to be the answer for this one.

Don't get me wrong, it runs well and performs well with no chip at all but it also pegs the MAF and achieves such high levels of airflow at part throttle that it is simply over-running the stock program. The stock program just doesn't do it justice.

David, it is making slightly more power than the 2.3L did and it is running at significantly less boost. The 2.3L hit 21psi whereas I think this one is more like 17. This is very pump gas friendly.

I have dyno charts, I'll have to scan them in or something. The look a lot like any other 300rwhp chart. :D

[dirtybird91]

Remember these years because you are a major player in this hobby of ours and I have great respect for what you are doing. I won't soon forget how you took time to make a donation to my project in the midst of yours. :cool:

We will be talking about how all this unfolded many years from now. :D
What do you expect that the "stock-block" setup will achieve at the 1320? This seems to be the biggest bang-for -buck option yet when I take for granted the costs will be reasonable.

If I can get mine together soon, we will have a comparison test-run, and hopefully we can learn more about the stock 3.8 mills.
I can hardly wait to see this on a car like Neibert's :eek:
Good luck David :)

[XR7 Dave]

Frank,

When the Cougar had 294rwhp and 363rwtq it ran 13.20 @ 103mph on drag radials so I have no doubt this one would do likewise. Considering this car ran 15.1 @ 89 the last time at the track without the FMIC and AR, that is a pretty substantial improvement.

I am wondering if anyone has any dyno numbers for a stockish SC with the MPFMIC? It would be cool to have dyno'd the car with a stock IC but I don't really think the IC is adding more than 10-15rwhp considering that we didn't rev beyond 4500rpm.

So my guess is that this is about an 80rwhp bolt on. Not bad for just a blower. :D

[SC UL8R1990]

this is really great news. all you guys that made it possible rock and theres more to come....not only with the 1.7 but the 2.3 and the turbo system as well. It's really re-energizing the club i believe. As for my take on all this, im going to stick with the m90 for another year......see how the whipple works out for everyone and then jump on the bandwagon when the bugs are cleared :)

5 thumbs up guys! :cool:

[quick35th]

This is great news Dave! I cant wait till I have the money for one of these kits.

BTW, while I am talking about money, how much is the 1.7L kit going to cost anyway?

Shane

[Scott Long]

looks like the bigger blower is overkill for a mildly modded engine. I suspect that the 1.7L will do just fine on about 85% of our members cars. It'd be neat to see how Dave N's car would react to both blowers at a dyno test. Your XR-7 also would be interesting and so would Bill McNeils car. He is damn near at Chris Wise's power numbers w/ the M90 w/o liquid/air IC. I think Bill's car will be a big contender this year and if you guys put a whipple on it look out. Chris went 11.91 w/ 391rwhp and Bill is at 379 if I recall he should run low 12's high 11's with it. I can't wait till these kits are released the suspense is killing me. I'm so tempted to sell one of my SC's to buy a whipple for the other one. Or I could go see my banks loan department....

if you would have had this kit out about 1.5 years ago I'd have one pre-paid but instead I blew a lot of cash on another car I no longer own.

[David Neibert]

After seeing the 1.7 on Dave's car and now seeing the dyno numbers, I've pretty much decided on it instead of the 2.3 for my SC. Unfortunatly I'm going to have to wait until next year to get it because of the turbo project.

David

[Randy N Connie]

I am going with two of Daves blowers.

One for my SC.TO KICK A$$ ON TURBO SCs.

And one for a big block SC,To kick A$$ on turbo SC v-8s.
:D :eek:

RANDY

[92redsc]

a stock hood will do fine with the 1.7 right? so are we think 190 or 255 pump? and 38 or 42 injectors?

[SilverCasket]

so are we think 190 or 255 pump? and 38 or 42 injectors?

The price difference with a 190 or 255 is like 5 or 10 bucks. So you should try to go with the 255fi. .. And I could be wrong, but I think 38's are rather hard to get a hold of & since you are going to upgrade you may as well go with the bigger selection. Since however you configure your computer will regulate the injectors anyway. I have 60 lb'ers & it's never too much because my chip is adjusting the flow anyway.

Anthony

[David Neibert]

And one for a big block SC,To kick A$$ on turbo SC v-8s.


Randy,

I think your gonna need something a little bigger than a 1.7 :)

David

[XR7 Dave]

I think your gonna need something a little bigger than a 1.7 :)

David

We can do that. ;) :D

[Randy N Connie]

I am ready for the 2.3 .I have my manifold adjusted already.
Just need to save the money for the purchase.

But I can afford the smack talk now. :)

RANDY

[dirtybird91]

Randy,

I think your gonna need something a little bigger than a 1.7 :)

David

Yeah Randy! BIGGER! :p

[XR7 Dave]

For those who haven't seen, here are some photos of the installed Autorotor. Just in case anyone was wondering...

http://members.tccoa.com/xr7dave/Blower%20project%20054a.jpg

http://members.tccoa.com/xr7dave/Blower%20project%20053a.jpg

:)

[dirtybird91]

Now that is one MEAN, CLEAN, installation. It fits nice and snug. Sleeper from the pits of H E L L!
Dalke for President! :D

[BT Motorsports]

Couple of questions for you Dave.
Is there a bypass valve in the kit (if not, are the production kits planned to have one?) I see something peeking behind the TPS sensor, not certain if that is it or not.
I see a line in the snout, are you running it as a vent line or are you using the engine oil option?
Lastly, I saw mention of the supercharger sitting higher and not allowing the use of anything higher than a stock top with a stock hood, is this because of the mounting bosses on the intake from the M90 or is it due to additional width of the blower?

Paul

[XR7 Dave]

Yes it has a bypass and all AR's have a snout vent. Some people like to block them off and then wonder why they blow out the seals. :confused: The blower is bigger all around than an M90.

The stock top doesn't seem to be much of a restriction for a positive displacement blower. I didn't see any increase in power even on my M90 when I went to a raised top although it did relieve a pressure spike in the outlet area. I don't see the top being an issue until we surpass 400rwhp.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Looks like a factory type of bypass..Although I never vented teh snout on my autorotor on my stang..Under high boost they have been known to spray oil..

Dave look into teh cobra kits from KB...Someone sells a rather expensive solution for that which you can copy cheap

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I guess someone was posting an answer right when I was typing one..duh haha

[XR7 Dave]

Ya, the vent is necessary at the boost levels that this blower will see.

[BT Motorsports]

So does the vent run to the intake tube or does it go through some kind of filtration or separator?

Paul

[XR7 Dave]

An oil seperator becomes necssary when boost levels exceed 20psi. This kit is not capable of exceeding that boost level due to the blower rpms needed to achieve that kind of boost being beyond the rpm limit of the blower. This kit is designed to achieve 16-18psi only on a 3.8L motor. The vent runs into the air box and under design parameters no oil is vented.

Since 400rwhp is easily attainable at those boost levels I feel that everything provided here is quite adequate. People hoping to substantially exceed 400rwhp will have to make the necessary modifications to accept a 2.2L version but production of such a kit is not planned for the short term nor would it ever be considered a bolt on kit due to the physical size of the blower.

I've looked at the Cobra oil seperators but by keeping boost levels under 18psi I don't see the need for it. 18psi is very pump gas friendly and will provide over 400rwhp on the right motor.

[turbospeed]

An oil seperator becomes necssary when boost levels exceed 20psi. This kit is not capable of exceeding that boost level due to the blower rpms needed to achieve that kind of boost being beyond the rpm limit of the blower. This kit is designed to achieve 16-18psi only on a 3.8L motor. The vent runs into the air box and under design parameters no oil is vented.

Since 400rwhp is easily attainable at those boost levels I feel that everything provided here is quite adequate. People hoping to substantially exceed 400rwhp will have to make the necessary modifications to accept a 2.2L version but production of such a kit is not planned for the short term nor would it ever be considered a bolt on kit due to the physical size of the blower.

I've looked at the Cobra oil seperators but by keeping boost levels under 18psi I don't see the need for it. 18psi is very pump gas friendly and will provide over 400rwhp on the right motor.

looks stockish jejejejej with the stock blower top/ic tubes and a double ic no one will know theres something fishy under the hood jajajaj sleeper effect.

[suprkoop]

OK-I am convinced.I want one! Since I am in the middle of my drivetrain rebuild anyways,now is the time. Dave,how much and when? :D

[ThunderRoad]

For those who haven't seen, here are some photos of the installed Autorotor. Just in case anyone was wondering...

http://members.tccoa.com/xr7dave/Blower%20project%20054a.jpg

http://members.tccoa.com/xr7dave/Blower%20project%20053a.jpg

:) :eek: :eek: HOPING YOU COULD SHOW US MORE OF YOU PIPING TO I/C AND :confused: :confused: HOOK UPS THANKS :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Dick Hughes]

Dave
Exciting development. Do you know yet, or do you believe that stock head gaskets will hold up to the 1.7s 16-18 lbs boost?

[David Neibert]

:eek: :eek: HOPING YOU COULD SHOW US MORE OF YOU PIPING TO I/C AND :confused: :confused: HOOK UPS THANKS :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Those are the standard pipes that come with the MP FMIC that was already on the car.

David

[ThunderRoad]

Those are the standard pipes that come with the MP FMIC that was already on the car.

David :eek: :eek: ok :confused: :confused: thought it was a custom job :D :D

[Micahdogg]

Everything looks top notch Dave. Again...you do amazing work. All you would need is to cast that mounting plate (for the s/c top to mount to), paint it grey or black and the average Joe would have NO IDEA that your kit did not belong on that motor from the factory.

Not that the average Joe would have any idea about what he was looking at anyway. :)

You are a true pioneer in the SC world. Kudos.

Micah

[kuhnga]

I think Dave should be banned from the club for taking off the M90, and being so damn creative.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Dick My 94 with stock head gaskets took an UNEFFICIENT haha 21psi.So long as you dont detonate it will hold up for awhile

[XR7 Dave]

Boost doesn't kill headgaskets. Lack of maintenance on the cooling system, detonation and high operating temperatures do. If you don't know the history of the motor, I'd be putting money aside for headgaskets already. Obviously increasing engine output by almost 100hp (70+ at the wheels) is going to put stress on weak components.

Everyone should know that these motors all blow headgaskets at some point or another. Ford has admitted that there was a design flaw that caused that problem. That being said, I am running stock 100K mile headgaskets on mine with no real concerns but realistically I won't be surprised if they start to leak. I don't think that this blower at 16-17psi is going to have any more tendancy to detonation than an Eaton at 13-14. As well, if you have the car tuned and/or get a chip for the blower it is a simple matter to dial in less timing to reduce any chances for detonation. It won't kill more than a couple HP but it could save your motor. :)

Does that make sense?

Gary, thanks for the vote of confidence. :rolleyes:

[dirtybird91]

I think Dave should be banned from the club for taking off the M90, and being so damn creative.

HEHE :D Hey dammet! I should be banned too! :rolleyes: :D

[boostwhat]

Where can I purchase a 1.7 Autorotor and how much will it cost me? Does he have any pics of this setup? THanks Derek

[kuhnga]

Gary, thanks for the vote of confidence. :rolleyes:

Sorry, I was on another thread. :D

I am anxious to see the next couple of cars with a screw blower do.
There face will look like this :p

[XR7 Dave]

Where can I purchase a 1.7 Autorotor and how much will it cost me? Does he have any pics of this setup? THanks Derek

There are several pictures in this thread. A group buy will be announced soon. Stay tuned.

David

[ThunderRoad]

I think Dave should be banned from the club for taking off the M90, and being so damn creative. :eek: :eek: I GUESS ALL YOU SPACE CADET,S WILL BREAK AWAY....... :( :( "GOING WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ONLY KIDDING :) :) FIGHT NICE :D :D

[hytorksc]

Was that 18 psi measured with the exhaust done, and how big was it (diameter)?

[SC UL8R1990]

correct me if im wrong but this is on stock manifolds,cats and has a flowmaster cat-back on it? to its dual 2.25 to 2.5 back to dual 2.25?

not the best flowing exhaust by any means, trust me i have one :p ;)

i may be wrong though.

[hytorksc]

then if it was done on stock exhaust, there may be a significant pressure drop on a bigger exhaust- but boost will still be way higher than the drop to 10 or 11 psi you get with the m90. will probably be more like 14 - 15 psi max with the cats, resonator, and pipes done. But boost should go up another 2 psi when rpms increase with bigger injectors and more fuel along with a tune and the exhaust fully done. Can we assume maybe 320+ rwhp on this one?

[XR7 Dave]

I think 320rwhp is easily achievable with an internally stock motor. This motor had stock manifolds and downpipes but hollow converters. Yes it has the flowmaster cat back.

More boost would certainly be possible with anything other than a stock airbox, maf, air tube, and TB. Whatever boost gains are seen on an M90 should also be seen on this combination (probably 1-2psi) It is also possible to step up the drive ratio on this blower if you want. We are spinning this one slower than a stock 94 blower (3.5" pulley).

I won't be doing any more work with the stock motor at this time. I will let the first customers experiment with that. The blower is now being transplanted to the XR7 (currently 345rwhp) to see what the upper limits of it are. Stay tuned. :D

[vettewars]

Just got through reading all the replies....still don't know exactly what a 1.7 is....but I have 5 cars to put em on.

Sounds like with this and a homemade center section by pass exhaust I'll be ruining that many more vette owners days.....

What would you take on trade for a new S-blower never out of the box from magnuson?.....man that's depressing....what's it worth now about $100.

I've followed your comments over the years...sniffing out how to make hp on the SC...and your realizations about "it must be the boost levels"....

You have incredible persistence and it's paying off...congratulations....

[turbospeed]

Just got through reading all the replies....still don't know exactly what a 1.7 is....but I have 5 cars to put em on.

Sounds like with this and a homemade center section by pass exhaust I'll be ruining that many more vette owners days.....

What would you take on trade for a new S-blower never out of the box from magnuson?.....man that's depressing....what's it worth now about $100.

I've followed your comments over the years...sniffing out how to make hp on the SC...and your realizations about "it must be the boost levels"....

You have incredible persistence and it's paying off...congratulations....
ill give you $110 and lets call it a deal :D

[Micahdogg]

How did this happen?

Micah

[David Neibert]

How did this happen?

Micah

How did what happen ?

David

[XR7 Dave]

Well since people have brought this thread back up to the top again, I guess it's time to provide an update. :D

Of all the AR's in circulation, only a couple are actually on running SC's. No discredit to the AR, but many people seem to buy things before they are ready. I guess its just an "SC thing." LOL


Anyway mine has achieved a best of 444rwhp (20psi) while stretching the limits of stock pistons. People tell me that if the stress hasn't broken piston ring lands, it will soon. I don't know if I believe that but that's what they say. Anyway the car has run a best of 12.09 spinning the slicks all the way through first gear. It clearly has the HP to run 11.70's but I don't have the urge to push it at the moment.

Another member has a similarly equipped 5spd car that makes 395rwhp with about 18psi (on a humid 94 deg day). The member prefers at this point to remain more or less anonymous but he enjoys driving the car whenever possible.

This past weekend we installed the first of the latest round of AR's on Todd Jelle's CMSII car. This car has been tuned several times and see's a solid amount of track time. Previous best HP numbers with an MPII were 340rwhp and best track MPH was 103 (at high elevation). After the AR the car made 420rwhp and ran 109mph in the 1/4 on a 94 deg day at 6000ft corrected altitude (that's faster than a stock 03-04 Cobra).

We are also anxiously awaiting results from Coy's own engine dyno where an AR kit is scheduled for testing soon. Coy expects that we will see well over 500HP on the engine dyno but I'm not much for predictions.

One important consideration that has guided me through the development of this product and played a major factor in my decision to use the twin screw blower was the desire to create useable performance for the average SC'er. By combining low blower parasitic losses with high adabiatic efficiency we can pull 18psi of boost out of this supercharger with a mere 6 rib belt and keep your stock engine together while enjoying the seat of the pants benefit of "free" HP without overstressing stock engine internals.

:)

[Ira R.]

............. one important consideration that has guided me through the development of this product and played a major factor in my decision to use the twin screw blower was the desire to create useable performance for the average SC'er. By combining low blower parasitic losses with high adabiatic efficiency we can pull 18psi of boost out of this supercharger with a mere 6 rib belt and keep your stock engine together while enjoying the seat of the pants benefit of "free" HP without overstressing stock engine internals.

:)

That means that old' fart$ like me who haven't raced in over 30 years get to drive it everyday and enjoy the hell out of it! :) I am planning on going to Summer Blast in MD next week, and I am very much looking forward to making a fool of myself :p

Now if I could find a dyno that knew something about a car that wasn't a mustang, maybe we could get some numbers.

Ira

[BT Motorsports]

Now if I could find a dyno that knew something about a car that wasn't a mustang, maybe we could get some numbers.

Ira, try this place:
Ida Automotive (Bob Ida)
600 Texas Rd.
Morganville, NJ 07751
732 591 1245
They have an AWD DynoJet 448 and own an SC. This is the place Hemmings used to do the article on my car.

Paul

[Ira R.]

Ira, try this place:
Ida Automotive (Bob Ida)
600 Texas Rd.
Morganville, NJ 07751
732 591 1245
They have an AWD DynoJet 448 and own an SC. This is the place Hemmings used to do the article on my car.

Paul

Hey! That's great, thanks!! Just under an hour and a half in normal traffic. That's nothing. I know the Jersey guys keep talking about doing a dyno day, but they haven't been able to schedule it yet. Maybe I won't wait and give this guy a call.

I a$$-u-me that if I drop your name he won't take out the greeners :p

ira

[8ate8]

I know the Jersey guys keep talking about doing a dyno day, but they haven't been able to schedule it yet. Maybe I won't wait and give this guy a call.


We're still waiting on our AR's from Dave :)

[XR7 Dave]

Yes I know. I've let a few of you down with the production time line on these things. Hopefully you will feel that the wait was worth it otherwise bring the kindling and torches. I won't hold it against anyone.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Yupyup..............

[Kurt K]

Also is he using alcohol injection now?

Damon, I believe the thread on TBU says he wasn't using alcohol injection during the AR dyno session.

[XR7 Dave]

Seems tuning has been an issue with several AR owners..Has this all been worked out? There have not been any tuning issues with any AR's. There have been some tuning issues with some people's cars which is no different than any other SC including yours. For those who have doubts:

Of all the AR's I ever built.

1) My original 2.3L - was never tuned, didn't need it!!!

2) Gary's 2.3L - didn't need any tuning to make 408rwhp. When GARY decided to run a 2.3L with a 10% jackshaft pulley and 3.25 blower pulley it lifted the heads. Wow. Big surprise at over 25psi on pump gas!

3) Anthony's 2.3L - Tuned up nicely in 2-3 pulls, never been retuned or touched since.

4) My 1.7L - Been tuned, ran fine until I added Kooks longtubes with the O2 sensors 15 feet (exaggeration) from the motor. Now I have idle issues. Nothing to do with the AR. Still now the fastest/highest HP SC engine running on pump gas ever recorded, all that with a cam that barely manages .500" lift.

5) Ira's 1.7L AR - Brian tuned the car, I looked at a VACUUM leak at Carlisle that was causing driveability issues. Turned out to be an MPFMIC problem! Apparently Bill used the opportunity to tell everyone who would listen that those AR's just aren't reliable.

6) Jake's 1.7L AR - Made 335rwhp UNTUNED. I went to tune the car and it had leaking headgaskets. Not much I can do about that.

7) Frank's 1.7L AR - has had trouble getting his car running. Apparently some sort of issue with injector/MAF calibration. I'm assuming that is an AR problem?

8) Julian's 1.7L AR - He has and continues to drive the car daily since he installed it in Feb. I tried to tune the car with 42lb injectors but gee, we ran out at 5000rpm. Now he has 60lb injectors and I haven't heard a peep from him. I suppose it has tuning issues also?

9) Mike's 1.7L AR - Hasn't posted here partly because of some of the retarded things that keep floating around. Nonetheless his made 395rwhp with the same cam setup that seems to have stopped the MPIII dead in its tracks at 335rwhp. I've avoided that issue because I believe in playing fair. I could be saying a lot right now but I prefer to keep my mouth shut and allow the competition fair time to work out their issues which no one else will talk about (and I fully intend to have a hand in what we hope will be the resolution to that problem as well!).

10) Todd's 1.7L AR - 420rwhp on the SAME dyno with the SAME correction factors (SAE), SAME fuel and SAME tune (except less timing with the AR). Todd's car was tuned by Dr. Fred, Brian Herron, AND myself prior to the AR so if it had any glitches that needed fixed - well I guess no one could find them. Todd has always had tuning issues with this car with the M90 on it and I suppose it is possible he has tuning issues still, but when the car layed down a 12.90 @ 109mph on a 94 deg day with a corrected altitude (verified by the weather station) of 6000ft all while spinning the 275/40 drag radials so badly that smoke poured out the side of the car, Todd said he feels that the dyno may have been conservative with it's numbers. Todd's car was NOT difficult to tune in Denver at 6000ft. We got the tune right within 3 pulls even though we changed injectors and MAF calibration during the install. The car did have a part throttle issue that did not show up on the dyno which we corrected afterward but nothing we did afterward had any effect on WOT tuning. It should also be noted that the runs on the dyno were with about a 25-40% race fuel mix which was NOT in the car at the track. The car was running at the track with straight 91 in the tank.

The last remaining AR that shipped over the winter has not yet been installed.

So once and for all there are NO TUNING ISSUES with the AR's. Yes, tuning will be required with 60lb injectors and big MAF's. You'll have that when you are making over double the HP of a stock SC engine. However, to infer that there are tuning issues with AR's that are any different or more difficult than the tuning issues that plague SC's in general borders on slanderous. There just isn't any evidence to back that up.

Also...Is Todds 340rwhp corrected for 6,000 ft? or is it more HP corrected?..I recall he was having tuning issues before the A/R...What was wrong that was currently corrected?As indicated above, SAME dyno, SAME correction factors, SAME fuel, SAME tune.

Also is he using alcohol injection now?NO!! No artificial cooling, no anything. Just an ESM double IC and fan. This car still has functional AC too!

Just curious..I heard about his numbers awhile ago and didnt get any info on what was changed or done before recieveing the AR to get it running primo before the swap

Heard what numbers? Todd has made more or less the same numbers with his MPII for a couple years now. The AR was installed and tuned this past weekend. If you heard otherwise you might want to check your sources. The comparison pulls on the dyno for before and after were done within 1 month of each other and there were NO tuning changes made between those events.

Here is the dyno chart:

{edit} BTW, this isn't the highest chart, it was the heatsoaked one after tuning. After cool down it made the 421rwhp refered to above. Also the fall off after 6000rpm was due to an ignition issue (possibly spark blow out) on the dyno. It did not do it on the street and the car pulls like mad to 6500rpm. :)

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

yupyupyuppppppppppppppppp

[Magnum Powers]

"9) Mike's 1.7L AR - Hasn't posted here partly because of some of the retarded things that keep floating around. Nonetheless his made 395rwhp with the same cam setup that seems to have stopped the MPIII dead in its tracks at 335rwhp. I've avoided that issue because I believe in playing fair."

Hey Dave, wants up? Here you call me this morning asking for Magnum Powers to sponsor the SC Shoot Out that I gladly agreed to then I come across this post with you calling my customers a bunch of monkeys and making claims about a cam taking the Mag3 to its knees, a claim that has not been proven along with a host of negative posts on other MagnaPortIII threads.

I have supported the Super Coupe Club and the SC Shoot Out for years but this is the first time I have been asked to contribute and then get dumped on in the same day and by the same person.


Best Regards,

Charles
Magnum Powers, LLC

[SilverCasket]

I gotta say, that the 2.3 litre was a snap for my car. .. It even outlasted the Lentech AOD ... Which for me is a charity in itself. ... (stock bottom end & takes one helluva beating with the Whipple, no problems)

The MPIII looks like a very big improvement to the MPII & I am currently 1 piece (return plenum) short of testing it vs. the MPII & a stock setup. All on the same car & on the same day. So I can help the community see real # differences for any of the worthwhile M90's available.

Dave, we know the AR shoves big Air into those heads & with ease. And when done on a car that is running properly, it makes power easily attainable. And I can attest that it doesn't hurt the car, people do. It can only help. ... And any AR problem isn't going to be the blower fellas, it's going to be the car & have to do with something else.

Charles, we know the Magnum Powers setup is the superior design in the M90's & the best drop in for every M90 replacement. (I'll have #'s to follow once I get the last component).

For now, 450 rwhp is an easy task for the Whipple. And if I'm correct, I am going to break 400rwhp with the MPIII ... It really depends on what your looking for. ... Like for me, it was all about the most power I could get out of the car. ... Now, it's just about putting my stock hood back on. ... Mine is an exception though because the 2.3 is huge when compaired to the 1.7. But in reality, if I can't outrun the airflow on either, they will both put the same #'s down for my car. Hence, both 1.7 & 2.3 are some serious power adders.

What's going to be interesting to see is if I can outrun the airflow on the MPIII or not. ... Because (not to float my own boat), but if I can't outrun the airflow on the MPIII, then there is some serious flow out of that new design.

Now of course there is more to it than just that. And Dave could tell it better than I could. But temps. That maybe something I can't test. But just based off of pulls, we can at least get real #'s on numerous pulls.

PS - The community is Very Greatful for everything you have done Charles. Everyone I talk to knows you from chatting with you about things & say your a stand up guy when it comes to your products. ... I'm sure Dave feels the same way.

Anthony

[SilverCasket]

Still now the fastest/highest HP SC engine running on pump gas ever recorded

Come on Now! We did get Gary's AR to 448rwhp as it was exploding! ;) :D :eek:

And we still have my very nice super secret (i know everyone gets offended when they think there's a secret. so chill out, there isn't one) #'s with the Whipple that we can talk about when you make it to NJ.

I'll bet he broke a rod or something on that one too, because it ran real nice until the heads almost came through the hood ! So much for bullet proof bottom ends. I'll take a stocker anyday! :o

[Brandon]

[QUOTE=XR7 Dave]Still now the fastest/highest HP SC engine running on pump gas ever recorded[QUOTE]

Where's the 1/4 mile times to back up these AR's?

[SilverCasket]

I think Dave's last run was 12.1. That was posted out there. .... I had a 12.xx run on my street tire recently, if that helps. Damn thing spun right through the 1/8, but it was a free pass, so I swung in there. :D

Anthony

[Jake]

[QUOTE=XR7 Dave]Still now the fastest/highest HP SC engine running on pump gas ever recorded[QUOTE]

Where's the 1/4 mile times to back up these AR's?
I noticed you have the MPIII blower, where's your 1/4 mile times? I ran a 13.1 with Dave's AR, stock heads, stock cam, and most likely a leaky headgasket with track temps at 110 degrees.

[XR7 Dave]

"9) Mike's 1.7L AR - Hasn't posted here partly because of some of the retarded things that keep floating around. Nonetheless his made 395rwhp with the same cam setup that seems to have stopped the MPIII dead in its tracks at 335rwhp. I've avoided that issue because I believe in playing fair."

Hey Dave, wants up? Here you call me this morning asking for Magnum Powers to sponsor the SC Shoot Out that I gladly agreed to then I come across this post with you calling my customers a bunch of monkeys and making claims about a cam taking the Mag3 to its knees, a claim that has not been proven along with a host of negative posts on other MagnaPortIII threads.

I have supported the Super Coupe Club and the SC Shoot Out for years but this is the first time I have been asked to contribute and then get dumped on in the same day and by the same person.


Best Regards,

Charles
Magnum Powers, LLC

Well now I've gone and done it. You win Damon, you got me so pissed off with your damn self righteous ramblings that I've gone ahead and said something to hurt some of the relationships that I valued most in this club.

I readily admit that on this post I said some things that really didn't need to be said which have now been put out in the open. It's true that David's MPIII made the same HP as his old MPII. It's also true that we (David, Charles and I) feel that a different cam might be the answer to that issue as the MPIII was worked very well for some other people. So there it is. I planned/hoped to be part of the solution to David's problem, I did not intend to come out here and make a mess of things. David asked me not to say anything until we knew what the cause of the dissappointing numbers and I have failed to uphold his trust. It bothered me that a good number of the people I have talked to seem to already know his issues but it's taboo to say anything about it here.

I guess what made me mad is that it seems perfectly fine for people to cast all kinds of doubt on things that I do but somehow to suggest that others may not be perfect either is morally wrong. The double standard is tradition around here I guess. Again, this isn't about Charles or MP. This is an ongoing trend around this forum. Some things never change. Now I've gone and said something damaging that can't be undone. Ok, so it's my fault. Fine.

Sorry Charles, I did not mean for it to come accross in that manner. I have not said anything negative about the MPIII. In another thread I asked for some dyno charts, in another I said the AR will outflow an M90, and in this one I guess I went overboard when I said that the "MPIII was stopped in it's tracks" by a big duration cam. You and I talked about this too and I believe that if you used a little different wording you'd have to agree that this is pretty much the conclusion we came to. It IS true that the AR made 395rwhp in a car with the exact same cam but I never called "your customers" monkeys or anything of that nature. I said there have been some retarded things posted around here (no one can deny this) and some of these things are the exact reason why some AR customers have declined to post. They see what happens to me when I make a statement and they are scared to post (and this goes back way before the MPIII was ever publicly discussed). So be it.

I am very sorry for offending you Charles, that was never my intention. I was focused on the attacks against me and my products. I should never have brought MP into the discussion because MP does not have anything to do with this. But what is said is done. Charles I hope you have not changed your decision to support the SC Shootout as I feel this is an important event for the SC community.

I don't know what else to say.

I'm sorry to everyone.

[Magnum Powers]

Well now I've gone and done it. You win Damon, you got me so pissed off with your damn self righteous ramblings that I've gone ahead and said something to hurt some of the relationships that I valued most in this club.

I readily admit that on this post I said some things that really didn't need to be said which have now been put out in the open. It's true that David's MPIII made the same HP as his old MPII. It's also true that we (David, Charles and I) feel that a different cam might be the answer to that issue as the MPIII was worked very well for some other people. So there it is. I planned/hoped to be part of the solution to David's problem, I did not intend to come out here and make a mess of things. David asked me not to say anything until we knew what the cause of the dissappointing numbers and I have failed to uphold his trust. It bothered me that a good number of the people I have talked to seem to already know his issues but it's taboo to say anything about it here.

I guess what made me mad is that it seems perfectly fine for people to cast all kinds of doubt on things that I do but somehow to suggest that others may not be perfect either is morally wrong. The double standard is tradition around here I guess. Again, this isn't about Charles or MP. This is an ongoing trend around this forum. Some things never change. Now I've gone and said something damaging that can't be undone. Ok, so it's my fault. Fine.

Sorry Charles, I did not mean for it to come accross in that manner. I have not said anything negative about the MPIII. In another thread I asked for some dyno charts, in another I said the AR will outflow an M90, and in this one I guess I went overboard when I said that the "MPIII was stopped in it's tracks" by a big duration cam. You and I talked about this too and I believe that if you used a little different wording you'd have to agree that this is pretty much the conclusion we came to. It IS true that the AR made 395rwhp in a car with the exact same cam but I never called "your customers" monkeys or anything of that nature. I said there have been some retarded things posted around here (no one can deny this) and some of these things are the exact reason why some AR customers have declined to post. They see what happens to me when I make a statement and they are scared to post (and this goes back way before the MPIII was ever publicly discussed). So be it.

I am very sorry for offending you Charles, that was never my intention. I was focused on the attacks against me and my products. I should never have brought MP into the discussion because MP does not have anything to do with this. But what is said is done. Charles I hope you have not changed your decision to support the SC Shootout as I feel this is an important event for the SC community.

I don't know what else to say.

I'm sorry to everyone.


I accept your apology and forgive you David. I will never bring it up again.

For the record the Mag3 has made 390 rwhp (SAE) at 5,000 rpm and 469rwtq running 20% overdrive on 92 octane pump gas with mildly ported heads and a very mild 206/206 duration .512” lift cam on a Mustang dyno that has been measured to read 3% low compared to two DynoJets in our area. So those numbers are really more like 402rwhp and 480rwtq if measured on a DynoJet. BTW, boost pressure started off at 14.2 psi at the beginning of the pull and ended the pull making peak boost of 17.7 psi. Because of the short cam duration this engine does not make power above 5000 rpm so additional tests are planned on engines with heads and cam that can run to 6500 or so. There is no indication of the blower gasping for air at this point so higher blower rpm resulting in increased airflow is expected with either greater blower overdrive ratio or higher engine rpm.



Later,

Charles

[SCgraphics guy]

sorry to chage gears here again,...both MP & the AR are great products for the SC, I know I've had several MP products, BTW Charles I need another top, & CAI kit.
As for my own view, I think MP blowers are by far the best bang for the $, on a stockish motor. & the MP intake plenum is still one of the best parts ever made for the SC. (Any MP blower coated rotors or not is a vast improvent over stock)
I have to be honest in my opinion, that I think the key to a great MP blower is the coated rotors. My polished unit dosen't have them & when I swapped from the S-port to the MP2 I actually saw a loss of power on the dyno.
I was begining to think my motor was down on power, but after 4 dyno events (3 on the same dyno) with the recent one (AR) I now believe that highly unlikely.
If you have an engine like my CMRE S2, then I beleive in the AR and that some nasty engines out there are trulely blower limited.
Remember my engine is o-ringed, so hense it may take a bit more boost & abuse than others.
I like the AR but I think it may be wise to build an engine to take the power.
This thing scares me. Its making nearly 20psi, & wants to just keep going way beyond 6K rpm. to think a 231cid engine making nearly 500hp at the crank, then figure in parasitic loss....Geeese! whats that like...600+hp
thats nearly 3 hp/cubic inch.
I think its time for some a snow alky kit(for safety), maybe a bigger pulley (to slow it down)
I run an ET sportsman class for NHRA points,(at a 3500ft elev track in CO.) and the cutoff to pro is 13.0
This thing is running 12s on a hot summer day & no matter how I try, I can't get it to run low 13s. Maybe I should hook the old Alky kit back up. Its been disabled for 2 years because it always slowed the car down before, but I'm afraid now cause anything I do to slow it down ...it just goes wants to go faster.
I'm sorry but this is a very unfamiliar & strange concept to me.
Also excuse me because I'm extatic but, I was begining to think this car would never run a 12...let alone at 3500' on a 90* day, with a corrected altitude over 6000'.

[David Neibert]

Dave,

No hard feelings here.

However...If it will make you feel better, you can stick around for a couple days after you drop off Marc's car to help me install the new cam & alky injection system and then dyno tune it to perfection :)

Then I can give Charles a fair evaluation of the MPIII and hopefully the numbers you help me make will be impressive enough to make everyone happy.

David

[Micahdogg]

"Tuning issues and fitment issues I have heard from owners of the units directly."

In response to Damon...there are no tuning issues caused from the AR as Dave said. And fitment issues? You have to be kidding me. What SC parts DON'T have fitment issues. How about my headers, my Age Classic hood, my motor mounts, my 3/4 top, etc.... Weak.

Micah

[Ira R.]

[[ edited for brevity and common sense]]

Ira

[Brandon]

[QUOTE=Brandon][QUOTE=XR7 Dave]Still now the fastest/highest HP SC engine running on pump gas ever recorded
I noticed you have the MPIII blower, where's your 1/4 mile times? I ran a 13.1 with Dave's AR, stock heads, stock cam, and most likely a leaky headgasket with track temps at 110 degrees.

It's on it's way, so I'm blowerless for now, since I just sold my MPII. My 1/4 mile times with the MPII most definitely would've been high 12s with stock heads/cam. I ran a 13.6 at 102.23 with almost a 2.2 60' time. And I added more parts over the winter, so you do the math. I don't expect the MPIII to help me much, since I still have stock heads/cam, since I was already seeing 18psi on my MPII with no overdrive. Of course the heads are at the machine shop right now. hehe

P.S. 440rwhp should be running better than 12.0's.

[Kevin Leitem]

[ 4) My 1.7L - Been tuned, ran fine until I added Kooks longtubes with the O2 sensors 15 feet (exaggeration) from the motor. Now I have idle issues. Nothing to do with the AR. Still now the fastest/highest HP SC engine running on pump gas ever recorded, all that with a cam that barely manages .500" lift.

Sorry dave, But I have run many runs in the 11,s on pump gas. I just want people to know that this is the first year I have run pure race gas. I ran my 11.66 With sunoco 100 that is taxed for the street and is available at the pump at my local Sunoco convience store. I know that it is 100 octane, But taxed road legal gas in my mind is pump gas.

[SilverCasket]

Yeah. We have something called CAM2 100 octane avail here on the street. .. Not everywhere, but some places. Haven't used it though. Didn't think it would help unless you need it to help stop det. ... But I agree. ... Pump Gas! :)

Anthony

[David Neibert]

Yeah. We have something called CAM2 100 octane avail here on the street. .. Not everywhere, but some places. Haven't used it though. Didn't think it would help unless you need it to help stop det. ... But I agree. ... Pump Gas! :)

Anthony

Anthony,

Do you have Stegs big cam in your car (240/240 .5xx/.5xx) ? If so I would be very interested in seeing your dyno results with the MPII & MPIII.

David

[SilverCasket]

Yeah no problem man. It's similar to that 555/240... I'm still waiting on someone to bring me a return plenum still. .. Once I have that I'll be all set. Right now my car is torn & waiting that 1 piece. .. Stupid freaking piece to have to wait for of all things. But whatever. ... Anyway, I'll pull the cam card too, because after the engine fire I changed it a bit & got a diff re-grind. .. Works well. I refer to it as the steg cam cuz it's close. But Fertile Phil & his big ideas. You see what happened. Had to do it his way. But I can't complain, it works well on the car.... I'll put everything up when I get done.

Anthony

[gldiii]

Thread tumbling downhill after this point with no hope of return. Closed at the request of several users. Thanks to all for you participation.