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View Full Version : help its gutless (sc powered stang) best time 16.085



scotte
08-21-2004, 12:43 PM
hi i'm in need of some help

my car 98 mustang with 92 sc motor weighin in at 3910 w/ driver and half tank

with the following

94 self ported blower,cai,80mm maf,raised top,ic fan,180 thermostat chip by fordchip,30lbers,255lph fuel pump,10% pulley,asp underdrives,i took the big bottom lip by the valve off on the exhuast side of the heads off,comp cams cam with .493 lift 210 int 220 ext, longtubes,no crossover,stock 00 gt catback(could the stock muffler do this?),3.73 gears with posi


the car hooked pretty good but after 2500-3000 it just has no power (ie the people in the stands can see the car slow down the best run of the night was 16.085 with a 2.2 60ft and that was icing everything and pushing the car in line to run it cool. i'm making good boost 15lbs. my dad said maybe my rocker arms are maxing out and so i'm only getting x amount of lift? is this possible with my cam?

ss_scuba
08-21-2004, 01:10 PM
I noticed you still have 30lb injectors on the car. I'd say with the 94 ported blower, and cam; you're pushing those injectors to their limit. I could be wrong, but that's where I'd start. There was a reason Ford went to 36lb ones on the 94/95 SC's.

Conan56
08-21-2004, 01:59 PM
For one 10% Blower pulley on a 94 supercharger is like OD the blower 13%
Id go with either a 5% Blower pulley or a stock 89-93 blower pulley (which equals 3% OD on a 94 supercharger)

Second thing as addressed already is those 30# Inj are prob too small for your mods You are prob leaning out up top thats why you feel power loss at Higher RPM

The third thing is You are overdriving the blower 13% and I dont see a double I/C listed in your MODS I dont know if your able to fit a double in a mustang
OD the blower increase air temps and If you have a stock I/C that deffinately isnt enough

Id reccomend one of the following options as far as I/C
1.Build your self a custom FMIC
2. Try a double I/C
3. At the very least put an intercooler fan on your I/C at least this would help cool the charge a lil bit


This is Just for starters Ther may be other issues that need to be addressed

scotte
08-21-2004, 02:23 PM
[94 self ported blower,cai,80mm maf,raised top,ic fan ,180 thermostat chip by fordchip,30lbers,255lph fuel pump,10% pulley,asp underdrives,i took the big bottom lip by the valve off on the exhuast side of the heads off,comp cams cam with .493 lift 210 int 220 ext, longtubes,no crossover,stock 00 gt catback(could the stock muffler do this?),3.73 gears with posi /QUOTE]


[QUOTE=Conan56]For one 10% Blower pulley on a 94 supercharger is like OD the blower 13%
Id go with either a 5% Blower pulley or a stock 89-93 blower pulley (which equals 3% OD on a 94 supercharger)

Second thing as addressed already is those 30# Inj are prob too small for your mods You are prob leaning out up top thats why you feel power loss at Higher RPM

The third thing is You are overdriving the blower 13% and I dont see a double I/C listed in your MODS I dont know if your able to fit a double in a mustang
OD the blower increase air temps and If you have a stock I/C that deffinately isnt enough

Id reccomend one of the following options as far as I/C
1.Build your self a custom FMIC
2. Try a double I/C
3. At the very least put an intercooler fan on your I/C at least this would help cool the charge a lil bit


This is Just for starters Ther may be other issues that need to be addressed

fastsc92
08-21-2004, 02:27 PM
i have the same cam as you, and i'm running 13.4's. This is on a stock 92 blower though :D So when my new blower comes i should see 12's. Something dont seem right with your set-up. I was going to say something about the blower. but seems your making good boost. A lot of times, self ported blowers dont work well, but you seem to be getting good boost. If you're not running any sort of IC, thats your problem. Blower outlet temps can reach 450deg. and it kills performance. After my stock IC with a fan i'm measuring 130deg at WOT. BUild some sort of front mount for that thing. Get some sticky tires. Also what heads are you running. Its possible that its not enough for that cam. Are you using 1.73 ratio rockers? Did you get new length pushrods? I also dont see a bigger TB in there. You're injectors are def. maxed out and you need at least 36's but i'd shoot for 38's. with a custom tune and a MAF to match.

MIKE 38sc
08-21-2004, 02:29 PM
What ECU are you using? Are you using the stock Mustang ECU with a chip or are you using an SC ECU?

scotte
08-21-2004, 02:44 PM
i'm running the stock sc ic / tubes arangment with an ic fan

im using the stang puter but chip but the chip hasnt been updated for all my mods

using all stock valvetrain exept for longer pushrods and cam

heads are basicly stock but i ported the exhuast side a little

68COUGAR
08-21-2004, 02:49 PM
I have a 10% on my '89 blower. When I still had my original IC, I was hitting the knock sensor hard at 3000 rpm. Stayed on the knock sensor from 3000 to 5300 when I got out of it. Just putting a DIC w/450 cfm 8" fan on the car took 1/3 sec. off my time. Now I have a 900 cfm 10" fan, and a CO2 spray bar on the front of the DIC. Getting the heat out of the incoming air charge, makes a world of difference.

I also have a Coy Milller stage 1 cam, 36 lb injectors, 70mm MAF, raised top, Underdrives, headers & Big Dawg exhaust.

Excellent advice from the other guys too!!!!!

68COUGAR

MIKE 38sc
08-21-2004, 02:50 PM
You need to talk to a member that goes by the screen name of BKB.
He has a Mustang with an SC engine using the stock Mustang ECU and he knows how to program it for the SC motor. Theres a big difference between the 2 ECU's and that may be your problem. Look BKB up in the members listing and Email or PM him I think he may be of help to you.

cougarsc
08-21-2004, 02:59 PM
Why is your Mustang so heavy?

XxSlowpokexX
08-21-2004, 03:15 PM
Put the stock pulley back on or an 89 or 5%..See how it feels then

What fuel pump

scotte
08-21-2004, 04:08 PM
Why is your Mustang so heavy

one word "driver"

i also let a friend drive ( he's skinny and he has a 12 sec stang and he knows how to drive and i made better times than he did)

255lph fuel pump

how could i be cutting out timing (no knock sensors on a stang)

i do think its time for old pulley

i emailed my tuner with my changes and i'm going to see what he thinks

i think injecters are in order

i was running 100 octane unleaded

will high inlet temps and or running lean cause it to massivly lose power above a certain point ?

does anybody see my mufflers as a problem

XxSlowpokexX
08-21-2004, 04:50 PM
Crap yeah..Stang computer...Perhaps for your new mods the old tune is just way off..The stock exhaust although bad..Shouldnt affect it that much.

Was the cam degreed?

Definately lower the boost though

Parker Dean
08-21-2004, 05:34 PM
So lemme get this straight:

You're running a supercharger on a N/A program with no knock/spark retard-under-boost capability, and borderline too-small injectors into the bargain? How is it that you're not picking up pieces of the engine from the track?

Anyway, I'd expect that air charge temps are outrageous and the thing is pinging really bad. Power will stop right when it starts clattering, knock retard or not because pre-ignition/detonation doesn't make power. You need a smooth burn of the air/fuel mix to make power.

scotte
08-21-2004, 06:52 PM
ok i changed back to a stock 89 pulley and the removed the thermostat

boost is now 12 psi and inlet temp is 130 after two consecutive 0-100 runs

the chip is for a sc motor ive just done some things to it after the tune (cam headers, swaping to the late model sc etc...

the cam was not degree'd it does have the 4 degree advance in it (stock advance)

seemed to start slower but it felt like it pulled evenly across the board

MIKE 38sc
08-21-2004, 08:53 PM
I really think your tune may be off and causing alot of this. By changing cam and going to headers that changed the airflow through the engine enough it needs to be tuned for. The cam you have should not nose over as soon in the RPM range as you report your engine doing.....even with 4 degs advance in it. That cam should pull pretty good to about 6 grand if your springs are right. Thats what leads me to believe the tune is off.

XR7 Dave
08-22-2004, 12:27 AM
Before you go changing anything else, get a WB02 on it and see what is really happening. Sure you need bigger injectors, but you also need to make more power. 30lb injectors will keep up until 275rwhp and 4500rpm which is good enough to put your car into the mid 14's. If you are losing power that badly after 2500rpm then you have some serious tuning issues that can't be solved from the keyboard. Get it on a dyno with a WB and work from there.

With your parts combination your motor is all done at 5000rpm and it is peaking HP at about 4800rpm. I have a lot of experience with that cam.

cougarsc
08-22-2004, 12:44 AM
Are you using the 98 style cam sensor. I believe it is installed by a different method than the SC's.

scotte
08-22-2004, 01:15 AM
Are you using the 98 style cam sensor. I believe it is installed by a different method than the SC's.

im using the 98 sensor

i may be wrong but i thought the sensor was for startup only?

can i actually a/r my timing with it ?


xr7 dave are you saying do a dyno tune or just wbo2 it to check

XR7 Dave
08-22-2004, 09:49 AM
xr7 dave are you saying do a dyno tune or just wbo2 it to check Either one. If your AF is off get Fordchip to fix it for you. I would never take something as modified as that to WOT never mind a race track without verifying AF ratio. That's the quickest way I know of to blow up all your hard work.

Scott Long
08-22-2004, 05:12 PM
Are you running all of this on a stock 98 Mustang 3.8L V6 block w/ stock rods and pistons? Are you using stang or SC heads? I think you'd be running in the 14's already if you would have just bought a complete SC engine from someone in this club and installed it w/ the proper computer. Then mod from there. With headers, gears, cam, blower pulley, you should be in the high 13's with a stang.

scotte
08-22-2004, 05:57 PM
Are you running all of this on a stock 98 Mustang 3.8L V6 block w/ stock rods and pistons? Are you using stang or SC heads? I think you'd be running in the 14's already if you would have just bought a complete SC engine from someone in this club and installed it w/ the proper computer. Then mod from there. With headers, gears, cam, blower pulley, you should be in the high 13's with a stang.

i used a complete sc motor
if i was running 14/high 13's i would not have started this thread :(

btw i now have a set of 36lb injectors

should i wbo2 it as it is ?
or put the 36ers in and then wb it


thanks

Scott Long
08-22-2004, 06:29 PM
Oh, then the computer must be an issue. Ideally you should swap the SC computer and harness in so you can use the knock sensor.

scotte
08-22-2004, 09:54 PM
Oh, then the computer must be an issue. Ideally you should swap the SC computer and harness in so you can use the knock sensor.

the hardware itself is not the issue just the chip's program


and if i'm going to have the rewire my car for a eec-4 sytem and lose obd2 (i have a laptop scanner and can access a bunch of sensors ) i would not have a v6 anymore

XR7 Dave
08-22-2004, 10:37 PM
Putting in the larger injectors may aggravate the problem. Based on some real general parameters (smell, plug condition, etc) does the car seem lean or rich? If it is lean, you will get lucky and the injectors will help until the EEC dials out the the difference. If it is already rich, then it will barely run.

Putting in larger injectors is going to require a re-cal on the chip regardless. I would get the WB02 done first and then have Fordchip make all the corrections at once and put the injectors in when the chip gets back.

I agree with you, your EEC is fine and totally capable of running the SC motor effectively.

scotte
08-22-2004, 10:59 PM
the only plug i pulled was #1

and it looked fine (tanish but not white with clean porceiln)
now that i think of it i should prolly check the back two because dont they get more boost? i will check the plugs tommorow and report back and you can advise me on wheather or not to install the injectors

i should be able to wb it next weekend

Thomas A
08-22-2004, 11:39 PM
Injectors are not the problem. I think it seems pretty clear that it's a tuning issue of sorts.

Thomas

68COUGAR
08-23-2004, 01:41 AM
With headers, gears, cam, blower pulley, you should be in the high 13's with a stang.
Scott, his car is 134 lbs heavier than my car. Woldn't that put him around 14.4?

68COUGAR

Shockwave
08-23-2004, 04:19 AM
How does your stang weigh 3900 lbs with you in it? That doesn't seem right.

If I was you, I would buy a LM-1 wideband datalogger for $350. Otherwise go pay $75 and get a dyno run with wide band O2. Also find out your ACT temps, you can read that as a voltage and get a chart to look it up.


Take XR7Dave's advice, he gives excellent advice for free, so take advantage.


Jerry

David Neibert
08-23-2004, 08:51 AM
I agree...it's something with the tune. Get it on the dyno and see what A/F ratio you have. Sounds like it's starving for fuel.

David

scotte
08-23-2004, 07:20 PM
How does your stang weigh 3900 lbs with you in it? That doesn't seem right.

its right the scales at the dragway don't lie

a the convertible top etc add weight

b i dont unbolt anything to save weight

c im big 6'8" with size 17 feet (i do need a diet for the sake of racing)

d the sc motor /ic and all that other crap add weight

e the gt (8.8) rear axle adds weight



= 3910 with me,car and a helmet ( track rules for verts)

92redsc
08-23-2004, 10:06 PM
what was you baseline, like with the stock v6? my mom has a stock v6 and i think it would make the perfect SC. less wieght, no wheel hop. but i do like the big car feel. i ran a 16.8 stock with that stang at 3500 ft. with a horrible DA. i can only muster a 16.4 out of the SC so i think the stang is a factory freak or my sc is a factory slowpoke.

scotte
08-23-2004, 10:58 PM
never took it to the track before now

scotte
09-11-2004, 07:18 PM
ok i trailored the stupid thing to the a meeting place to meet my tuner

he reburnt the chip for my 36lb injectors and other mods and i went on the dyno






please dont laugh




no @@#@@ no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







ok

1st run 80.6 hp 124.4 trq
2nd run 80.5 hp 113.4 trq




and now for the kicker of it

the a/f was good
a nice flat graph exactly where it needed to be


so the tuner connected his data loger and and everything is good and doing what its supposed to be doing

he tried adding timing and nothing

he richend it up and it got a little better to a point (he kept trying diff. things
but nothing really helped



if i cant figure this out i'm burning the car



:mad: :( :mad: :( :mad: :( :mad: :( :mad: :( :mad: :( :mad: :mad: :( :mad

XR7 Dave
09-11-2004, 08:32 PM
About the only thing that would cause that is a total lack of ignition timing advance. If I had a car running that poorly I would have pulled the spout connector to see if it made any difference. If it didn't then you would know what the problem is... Was he able to datalog commanded spark? I also wonder about your damper. They've been known to slip causing even worse timing than nothing at all.

Either that or you have a cork in your exhaust. :/

Nonetheless, you need more than 80rwhp to run a 16sec 1/4 in that car so something suggests that it is getting worse...

scotte
09-11-2004, 09:54 PM
About the only thing that would cause that is a total lack of ignition timing advance. If I had a car running that poorly I would have pulled the spout connector to see if it made any difference. If it didn't then you would know what the problem is... Was he able to datalog commanded spark? I also wonder about your damper. They've been known to slip causing even worse timing than nothing at all.

Either that or you have a cork in your exhaust. :/

Nonetheless, you need more than 80rwhp to run a 16sec 1/4 in that car so something suggests that it is getting worse...

like i said total advance was good after tip in my car is obd2 so you can datalog a lot more /easier
also my car has no knock sensor so it wont retard timing because of that

can you give me any more info on the balancer sliping?
i'm trying to understand how that would affect timing :confused:

scotte
09-11-2004, 10:45 PM
heres the dyno i was curios about how bumpy the blue lines are

XR7 Dave
09-11-2004, 11:52 PM
heres the dyno i was curios about how bumpy the blue lines areLooks like severe detonation. How much timing are you running on it?

First off, I would NEVER run 13.0:1 on a blown motor with no knock sensor. Is your tuner commanding 13.0:1 or is the transfer function that far off? The file should be commanding 11.8:1 for safety sake. If it is commanding 11.8:1 but actually hitting 13.0 then your load tables will be off also causing the motor to add more timing than it should. Does the EEC commanded timing match your timing table at max load?

As far as the balancer is concerned, they have been known to turn on the hub thowing off the computer's reference to -0- TDC. The only true way to check it is to install a piston stop in cylinder #1 to locate TDC and then compare it to the mark.

Are you sure you don't have a blockage in your exhaust?

cougarsc
09-12-2004, 12:05 AM
Does your EEC support a BAP sensor?

scotte
09-12-2004, 12:18 AM
my eec doesn't support a bap


my exhuast system is as follows MAC LT HEADERS,OFF ROAD PIPE,STOCK 00 GT CATBACK


i can see my catback exhuast costing me 10-20 hp heck maybe even 25


but if my motor is only going to make 105-110 rwhp i might as well sell it to the scrap yard !


im going to check the balancer tommorow as its a ford unit and has been r&r'd several times :eek:

also the car makes more vac(7 inches) at 2500 rpm than it does at idle (ive heard people talking about it doing this before the hb goes out

p.s my tuner richen'd it up after he saw the w/b results

scotte
09-12-2004, 01:10 PM
update my hb is broke

it broke right were it goes thru the front main seal

the bolt was fine and came out nicley (thank god)

ok now how do i pull the remainder of the crank

Parker Dean
09-12-2004, 06:46 PM
ok now how do i pull the remainder of the crank


Been discussed plenty around here, some pull the timing cover, others have used drills and chisels through the seal hole in the cover (taking appropriate action to avoid metal getting in the pan). A Search should turn up threads on the subject and I know at least one has pics of the drill-type attack.

Shockwave
09-12-2004, 10:19 PM
update my hb is broke

it broke right were it goes thru the front main seal

the bolt was fine and came out nicley (thank god)

ok now how do i pull the remainder of the crank

I had the same problem last year at the SC shoot out. My car ran 17 sec 1/4 mile. It' very hard to diagnose since timing light shows everything is fine. Plus, I had no EEC codes and regular driving wasn't that bad. It got worse and caused a vibration, and that's when I noticed the crank pulley wobbling. My balancer was broke in exactly the same place. I removed the timing cover and used a two jaw puller on the timing crank gear. Came right off with no effort. I bought a new Ford unit, but a BHJ is probably a better idea in the long run.

It will be night and day difference when it's fixed.

Jerry