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bluebird
09-07-2004, 08:51 AM
I just picked up my SC last week and didnt have A/C. My R-12 had leaked out and my compressor would'nt even come on. A few days ago I did a search for a/c service and it led me to some posts about a product called Duracool. I did a little research and was able to contact the distributor for my area (metro detroit) He not only sent me info, he sent me three cans of the product for FREE!! I'm here to tell you that this stuff works!!! My black on black 90 SC gets colder than my 2000 Expedition. Its compatible with r-12 systems and the only thing I had to do was get my system vacuumed down and I needed to by a r-134 fitting for my low side valve so that I could put the Duracool in. The distributor would be happy to talk to any of us and send us product. His web address is www.ja-ran.com/duracool.html. Be sure to let him know you saw it here so that he can hook you up like he did me. :D

Jim Cook
09-07-2004, 12:39 PM
Hydrocarbon refrigerants are flammable and because of that, are illegal in 17 states (last time I looked). Those states are listed on the EPA website. While the risk of igniting hydrocarbon refrigerants is remote at best, debates over their use continue. Legally, an R-12 MVAC system has to be converted to R-134a before a product such as Duracool or Envirosafe ES-12a can be used. Beyond the adapters and oil used in the system, I don't know how anyone could determine if R-134a had been the system prior to a hydrocarbon refrigerant.

bluebird
09-07-2004, 02:22 PM
Hydrocarbon refrigerants are flammable and because of that, are illegal in 17 states (last time I looked). Those states are listed on the EPA website. While the risk of igniting hydrocarbon refrigerants is remote at best, debates over their use continue. Legally, an R-12 MVAC system has to be converted to R-134a before a product such as Duracool or Envirosafe ES-12a can be used. Beyond the adapters and oil used in the system, I don't know how anyone could determine if R-134a had been the system prior to a hydrocarbon refrigerant.

I checked the EPA site and I also did my own research. I found out that 134 is banned in most other countries because when heated/inhaled it can be fatal. There are tests proving this. Duracool actually has a higher temp. threshold than R-134. Its just that R-134 has been "approved" by our gob-ment. Its pretty interesting when you start to dig into the subject what you uncover about R-134 and our US Gob-ment.

Mike8675309
09-07-2004, 03:06 PM
Research on the "Web" no doubt.

All refrigerants are dangerous. They displace oxygen so in an enclosed environment your lungs will fill with the refrigerant rather than oxygen. Your body won't be able to tell the difference but you'll die from suffocation.

Try being a truck mechanic on a liquid nitrogen trailer that just had a brake failure and needs to be fixed while loaded?

All refrigerants are also toxic in the presence of a fire.

You research should have found that the sole reason why DuraCool is not legal is because they haven't provided the necessary data to the EPA under the SNAP program to be either approved, or un-approved. At this time the product is simply nothing in the eyes of the EPA and as thus fall under the law that no flammable gas be used. This is due to the fact that equipment is not in place in retro-fit situations to protect the operator of a vehicle or the person who might maintain a vehicle from danger.

There are several "approved" retro-fit refrigerants that can be used in automobiles. They are listed at the EPA website:
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/macssubs.html

bluebird
09-07-2004, 03:11 PM
I had that info but not on hand. Didnt want to mis-lead anyone. Duracool did do the tests and sent the info to the EPA. The EPA then ordered more tests and is still asking for more data. I have some info from some magazine articles if anyone wants them.

TbirdSCFan
09-07-2004, 05:11 PM
I was about to make the coment that Duracool is a Hydro Carbon based refrigerant and I'm not sure they're legal in all, if any, states. In short, its flammable. There is a ton of debate on the subject if you research it, because in some countries its legal to use. Probably worth looking into before you get it in your car.
The other factor which may be a problem with the NHTSA is its flammability. Unlike fuel lines which are tucked away and are not easily ruptured in the case of an accident (Note, I did not say rupture proof), your condenser carrying the gas sits right behind the front bumper.. :eek: Consider a front end collision of 25mph or more and you can probably see why the concern.

darkstar_one
09-07-2004, 06:06 PM
i know that **** wont be legal in california, which is okay though, i dont mind helping the environment. As a matter of fact im glad california has strict emissions and epa laws because i want my kids to have a nice life where they dont have to worry about shortages of petroleum or not being able to go outside cuz jackasses from the past left a big *** hole in the ozone.

SC Ward
09-08-2004, 06:03 AM
i know that shet wont be legal in california, which is okay though, i dont mind helping the environment. As a matter of fact im glad california has strict emissions and epa laws because i want my kids to have a nice life where they dont have to worry about shortages of petroleum or not being able to go outside cuz jackasses from the past left a big *** hole in the ozone.


Actually, I think your kids will have to deal with a shortage of petroleum fuels, regardless of what insignificant measures we may take to conserve it, because even what little we do, China and the rest of the developing world will not;

And, they will likely have to deal with ozone depletion, because all worldwide human activity put together is totally insignificant relative to ozone cycles;
which are caused by solar activity, geothermal and global climate conditions, which were cycling several billion years before humans were invented.

The CFC restrictions are pure political BS designed to enrich certain chemical producers and provide political capital to certain do-gooder politicians,
at an Incredibly Awsome Expense to consumers

Thank God, EnviroAlgore failed in stealing the Y2k election;
but his ilk are sure to be at it again this November.

Cheers.

darkstar_one
09-08-2004, 10:39 AM
man o man, why the hell did i know a monkey man supporter would say something stupid like that, ur one of those that wanna drill for oil in the wildlife preserve up in alaska right?

so all those tests and theories are somehow wrong? all of the scientist are wrong and ur right? I wonder what ur gonna say when all the ice really do melt and ur house is below the sea? ur somehow gonna turn into a mermaid? or a merman? dont give me that enviornmental **** to me ok, especially from u crooked *** monkey man supporters.

you must be one of those that benefit from the tax cuts ;) one of the few to be exact


but anywho let me check if its legal in california, if it isnt i have to convert to R134a, hey but has anybody heard of this synthetic booster for the R134a system that supposivles gives u 35 percent colder air? it has this polar bear on it in a gold bottle?

TbirdSCFan
09-08-2004, 10:53 AM
so all those tests and theories are somehow wrong? all of the scientist are wrong and ur right? I wonder what ur gonna say when all the ice really do melt and ur house is below the sea? ur somehow gonna turn into a mermaid? or a merman? dont give me that enviornmental **** to me ok, especially from u crooked *** money man supporters.

you must be one of those that benefit from the tax cuts ;) one of the few to be exact Darkstar. I'm a bit of a tree hugger myself, but in the case of the freon ban, there are some significat questions that were never answered. The biggest (and its a biggie) is how does freon get up into the stratosphere to begin with? Its heavier than air :confused: :confused: Somebody on one side or another is not being truthful somewhere. But thats not unusual.

It is a subject of a lot of debate in the HVAC, MVAC communities and there is a lot of disinformation floating around about it. I retro'd my A/C to r134a and its working just great, and I thought it was a better thing to do for the environment and such. Just turns out thats not necessarily true. :(

TbirdSCFan
09-08-2004, 12:27 PM
has anybody heard of this synthetic booster for the R134a system that supposivles gives u 35 percent colder air? it has this polar bear on it in a gold bottle? No. If you can find the name of it, I can look around. Lot of snake oil out there. There is one product called QwikBoost which has been tested by an MVAC supplier which actually did what it was advertised to do.

Jim Cook
09-08-2004, 12:35 PM
From the EPA website, flammable refrigerants are Illegal in the following states period:

1. Arkansas

2. Arizona

3. Connecticut

4. Florida

5. Idaho

6. Iowa

7. Indiana

8. Kansas

9. Louisiana

10. Maryland

11. North Dakota

12. Oklahoma

13. Texas

14. Utah

15. Virginia

16. Washington

17. Wisconsin

18. District of Columbia

Using Hydrocarbon refrigerants as a direct (drop-in) replacement for R-12 is Illegal everywhere.

However, EPA says that using HC refrigerants to replace R-134a MAY be legal. So, if your R-12 system was converted to R-134a and you're not in one of the above states there shouldn't be a problem. Most R-134a conversions, when properly done, yield long term satisfactory results and easier to top-off when system is low. Personally, I don't a problem with HC's. I've used ES-12a before, with great degree of success and don't believe that 13 oz of propane/isobutane constitutes a major risk. The stuff smells like Pine-sol so you'd know in a hurry if you had an evaporator leak (unless you have a pine tree air freshener hanging from your rearview, D'oh!). I'm not telling anyone what to use or not use, just trying to let everyone know that there are regulations out there. Visit the EPA site and proceed as your confidence/conscience allows. I don't think that the "Freon Police" are out there but better to err on the side of caution than to find out otherwise, the hard way.

darkstar_one
09-08-2004, 02:06 PM
here ya go...

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/ProductDisplay/s-10101/p-8601/c-10101

the link should work

if not here is a pic

here is from the website JCWHITNEY, this is the exact same one they sell at the autozone by my house

SYNTHETIC A/C BOOSTERS
A cutting-edge lubricant for automotive air conditionersólubricates all metal components, including the compressor
Reduces coefficient friction and heat caused by friction
Resists wiping, prevents oil film rupture, gives a smoother surface for less drag, suppresses foaming and creates a greater load-bearing shield
Improves air conditioner's cooling performance up to 18%! Requires less energy and cools more efficiently. Increases heat transfer by guarding against lubricant migration on the heat exchange surfaces of the evaporator and condenser coils. Prevents oxidation and sludge build up, extends life of compressor and reduces engine drag for better gas mileage. For use in any auto air condition. Polyalklylene Glycol (PAG) and Polyol Ester (POE) lubricant compatible.



but the one in the autozone here in my house is a GOLD bottle from the same brand but states 35 percent more cold air. its a booster

TbirdSCFan
09-09-2004, 03:15 PM
I asked the people on the ac board what they knew about it and they had no opinion other than they doubt its claims somewhat. With what is known about how A/C works and how difficult it is to validate the many claims, about all I can say is: Unless someone other than the manufacturer (or their cousin) who stand to make no $ from it, can test the product under repeatable and controlled conditions, we can't verify the claims. The claims, in my experience, appear to be just so much sales baloney. For example, "up to 35% colder air"... what does that mean.. you can measure that 5 ways to sunday to make it mean anything you want.

My A/C is already running at the low end of a scale for a product which is an identical twin to the subzero booster. That product is called ICE32. My A/C has no additives in it.. it is 100% r134a with industry standard PAG oil. So, in my case, the additive wouldn't do anything for me other than maybe help reduce fuel consumption provided that it really does as advertised. I couldn't find any literature on the subzero booster additive.

Use it if you want, it shouldn't hurt the A/C and its possible it might help it. I'd say its about 50/50 at this point. I personally wouldn't use it.