M112 air to air 95% complete today....

[BT Motorsports]

http://www.bluetonguemotorsports.com/m112/m112stockkit9.jpg

For those who have been following, the prototype water/air M112 kit has been in testing with some fantastic #s. Today, the air to air kit is 95% complete. Snout gets shortened to locate the pulley in the M90 location on Sunday then its ready for cleanup, powdercoat and installation. This kit uses a custom inlet plenum, modified return adapter plenum (to retain the bypass valve) and bolts up to the stock lower intake and top. It clears the stock hood and will bolt up to a stock IC, arrangement or front mount like the MP IC. If it performs anywhere close to the water/air kit, 400RWHP will be easily achievable.

Paul

[Shockwave]

Only one pic? I have never heard about this kit. I guess I'm out of the loop. Please enlighten us.

Jerry

[BT Motorsports]

Only one pic? I have never heard about this kit. I guess I'm out of the loop. Please enlighten us.

Jerry
Yes, only one pic, not much to see actually, the M112 is nearly identical to the M90, just longer body and snout. This is a very economical replacement for the M90 to go fast. Its completely bolt on and integrates with many of the existing parts people already have without needing to buy new pieces.

Paul

[Shockwave]

What would be involved in using this kit? What modifications does the buyer need to do? If you have a cost for the kit finalized you can e-mail me that info.

Jerry

[BT Motorsports]

Jerry, the kit is designed to be a complete bolt on. It requires a core inlet and return adapter plenum since the bypass is moved and reused as well as the egr flange where applicable. The buyer wouldn't need to make any modifications, just provide the inlet, return adapter and an M112 jaguar blower for modification to the snout and outlet (outlet is drilled and tapped to accept the stock top). This really wasn't fabricated with intent to offer kits, 2 friends asked me to fabricate a kit for them which is where this began, so I don't have any pricing in mind. I expect to spend a few weeks testing and reworking the inlet since I would like to see more plenum volume before I will be shipping it to its new owner. I am open to discussion via email if for those who may be interested however.

Paul

[ricardoa1]

Thats going to look so good on my car :)
Paul thanks.

[hytorksc]

Paul,

i am very interested too, but i am planning to do something with my SC next year when i can afford to. i was focussed on whipple, but if the m112 can put out similar power numbers i'd rather go that route (i'm just looking for 350-400rwhp anyway). ease of installation is the main thing, and not much tuning beyond this. Sounds real good. Thanks for giving us more options for the SC.

[fastsc92]

Looking good Paul, I'm interested to see the final kit. I'll have to start cashing in my bottles and cans ;)

So the buyer would need to provide a M112 blower, stock inlet, and return plenum? Then the rest of the mods would be done by you? Can you only use a Jag blower, or can you use a M112 from a cobra?

[jamesgangel]

The link is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33741&item=7921980296&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW


I am not sure if this is the exact one that we need here..

[ricardoa1]

Looking good Paul, I'm interested to see the final kit. I'll have to start cashing in my bottles and cans ;)

So the buyer would need to provide a M112 blower, stock inlet, and return plenum? Then the rest of the mods would be done by you? Can you only use a Jag blower, or can you use a M112 from a cobra?


You have to get the Jaguar blower. The case dimensions and inlet and outlet characteristics is what makes it posible to fit without some major fabrication.

I hope to have it bolted on my car next month after paul is done testing it and getting the right pulleysize for me. We are shooting for 400+RWHP with my set up.

Paul,
I still think we can get a little more air flow if we port the blower, remember we discussed this at Carlisle. The easier we make it for the Blower to breathe the more efficient it will be. Your argument was that there will be plenty of air from this blower, more then the 3.8l engine will ever use. Any thoughs.

[TBone95]

I still think we can get a little more air flow if we port the blower, remember we discussed this at Carlisle. The easier we make it for the Blower to breathe the more efficient it will be. Your argument was that there will be plenty of air from this blower, more then the 3.8l engine will ever use. Any thoughs.

I think with your Steg heads and cam porting it would be a good idea. Even if it has enough airflow stock it might help to be able to underdrive it a little for lower outlet temperatures.

[quick35th]

That thing looks sweet! Keep us updated.

Shane

[plev72]

James, yup, that's the one you need.

[XR7 Dave]

So Paul, how much HP did the air/water make? Or is that a secret too?

[Scott Long]

I didn't know you had an air/water prototype Paul. Is it an under blower IC like on the SVT Cobra?

[BT Motorsports]

So Paul, how much HP did the air/water make? Or is that a secret too?
I cannot quote exact numbers since I do not have (and as per our agreement I will not be given) any dyno charts but I will say it was in the 450RWHP neighborhood on a dynojet through a 5 speed trans. This was installed on a strict race motor used for street racing. It runs a 10 gallon resevoir in the trunk and enough IC under the blower to support 800 crank HP. A custom cowl hood is being used to clear the blower snout as this setup resides on top of a billet CNC fabricated tuned runner intake manifold. The manifold has additional plumbing through it which circulates ice water from a second resevoir in the trunk. Oh, the blower wasn't ported either.

Scott, this is a full race version of the kit I posted back in '03 mentioned in this thread: http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showpost.php?p=230091&postcount=35 The kit shown in the link actually is the first prototype, it hasn't made it to its owner yet due to some unforseen delays, but should be shipped soon. 425 RWHP is the target with that one on 14lbs of boost.

Paul

[plev72]

Looks good, can't wait until I get my hands on one! :-)

[BT Motorsports]

Well, I have received a flood of inquiry about this kit in the past 24 hours. At this point, I hope to have some details on pricing and options early next week and will throw up an HTML page of information with it at that time.

Paul

[XR7 Dave]

Not bad for an Eaton. Nice to see that someone has finally caught up with the GTP guys who have been doing that for a couple years now. What would be really interesting is to see what you'd get on that motor with an efficient source of boost....

[cudaz101]

[QUOTE=XR7 Dave]Not bad for an Eaton. Nice to see that someone has finally caught up with the GTP guys who have been doing that for a couple years now.QUOTE]


Would it not be a much simpler task to apply the M112 "Setup Adaptability" to a GTP platform though?? Which would explain why our group has not jumped on it in volumes.


Brad

[XR7 Dave]

Not saying anything is wrong with it, just saying its nice to see someone finally doing it. The GTP guys have enjoyed the 50hp upgrade for quite some time now. With a better blower the combination would yield another 50rwhp minimum.

[FastSC]

the GTP guys probably did it first because there's more money in that market, and any company that does a GTP blower will sell a lot more than if they did a SC blower. I think it's great that we are getting there though!

[cudaz101]

My comment was directed at the Complication betwen the two setups having something or maybe everything to do with the time lapse. It seems to me that it would be much easier to adapt one to a GTP than that of our SC...Looks like about all ya need to apply one to a GTP would be adapter plates for the intakes maybe and a Lightning, cobra whatever case/donor since they are routed the same way. RIGHT???


Brad

[XR7 Dave]

Brad, it took me 6mo to put together an air to air AR on my car working from my garage. The reason that we did not have something like this 5 years ago is because everyone who had the capability of doing something like this was stuck in the mindset that 300rwhp was the limit and besides no SC'er would ever pay big bucks for a good product. That and people seem to be married to their M90's.

The 'complications' are minor.

It was really Steigemeier's heads that opened up people's eyes to the possibilities of the SC motor and it's been building from there. If people are interested in sticking around, there is much more to come. We have only scratched the surface here.

[hytorksc]

Paul, if you please...

Can you give a ballpark rwhp estimate of the m112 kit setup on a double stock IC air to air arrangement with the usual mild bolt-ons?

If you have exhaust, MAF, TB, underdrive pulleys, and a 5% OD, and stock everything else putting out around 230 rwhp with an early m90 (like mine), how much rwhp would your m112 kit add to this (ballpark)?

Is it realistic to expect over 300 rwhp?

[BT Motorsports]

That is something I really cannot speculate on, however, I do intend to test it on a very similiar setup as well as an all out motor (even a stock one with just fuel upgrades if I can find a willing candidate) to give some views on different setups.

Paul

[hytorksc]

thanks Paul, please keep us informed. I am giving alot of thought towards buying your kit. seem like the best way to get what i want with the least amount of problems. i mean the 230 rwhp or so i have now is good, but i feel i need about 80-100 more to be satisfied.

[nicks94tbirdsc]

Its good to see someone finally made the m112 swap look possible for production. people have been speculating about it for years, others saying it was a complete waste of time. Good job Paul for trying to do something different as well. Now we will finally have some REAL options for these motors.

[David Neibert]

i mean the 230 rwhp or so i have now is good, but i feel i need about 80-100 more to be satisfied.

Spoken like a true SCer....and when you get that extra 100, your gonna want a 100 more.

David

[hytorksc]

Spoken like a true SCer....and when you get that extra 100, your gonna want a 100 more.

yeah, and after i get to that level something will break as usual.

[boostwhat]

What model Jag is the blower from? What year?

[BT Motorsports]

What model Jag is the blower from? What year?
Any supercharged jag from I believe 99+. You can tell its an M112 but the funky tab that hangs off the back of the case as shown in this pic:

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Its 98 plus :O)

97 and under had an m90

[Wanted1990SC]

Any updates to this project? :D

[BT Motorsports]

I have some flow bench time scheduled this week before the inlet gets a planned rework then possibly some dyno time a week later.

Paul

[T@Sound-Xtreme]

updates?
Tyler

[BT Motorsports]

Nothing significant to report. Flow bench results confirmed the need for a rework which is near complete. Time is not going to allow dyno testing before it is installed on a vehicle, however I do intend to do some back to back testing switching from an M90 to the M112 during the same dyno day in a few weeks.

Paul

[quick35th]

Paul, Any updates? I am very interested in purchasing your kit. Could you please pm me or email me with some more info (specs, prices etc.)?

Shane

[SCaddict]

Any updates that can be posted for the interested folks who are watching with anticipation?

[BT Motorsports]

The inlet rework is completed and the proto kit will be installed on a vehicle on Sat. Once it is running I will be scheduling some dyno time.

You may call me from 5pm-10pm weekdays or noon till midnight weekends (pacific time) at the # below to discuss any questions you have or drop me an email with your contact # since my available time to post is more limited as of late.

Paul

[metalman]

I am very interested in this too. Please keep me abreast of price and package. Thanks!

Metalman

[BT Motorsports]

Well, finally got it installed today on a test vehicle. Unfortunately, the vehicle it went on has 36lb 94-95 injectors and they maxed out very early according to the wideband. Some 42s will be on order this week so we can schedule some dyno time for comparison purposes.
Oh, forgot to mention, the swap from the M90 to the M112 takes a whopping 90 minutes to complete if you have R&R your supercharger before ;) I am awaiting some production price quotes from the machinist I have contracted to modify the snout before I announce a kit price.

Paul

[daivd z]

will the kit include a snout and other things to put it on and we just have to get the blower seperate?

[BT Motorsports]

will the kit include a snout and other things to put it on and we just have to get the blower seperate?
The blower case needs to be modified in addition to shortening the snout. You will have the option of supplying the blower or we will supply one for you.

Paul

[Greg Coleman]

I'm very interested! :D

[SCaddict]

What's the lastest on this?

[BT Motorsports]

As soon as my schedule can coordinate with that of the test vehicle, I will be scheduling dyno time to get some back to back #s. At this time, I cannot speculate when this will occur however. I hope to have some updates in the next week or so.

Paul

[quick35th]

As soon as my schedule can coordinate with that of the test vehicle, I will be scheduling dyno time to get some back to back #s. At this time, I cannot speculate when this will occur however. I hope to have some updates in the next week or so.

Paul

Do you have any pics of it installed on the test vehical? I would like to see them if you have them and drool over them.

Shane

[BT Motorsports]

Do you have any pics of it installed on the test vehical? I would like to see them if you have them and drool over them.

Shane
No, afraid not, but here is a teaser pic from the prototype water/air kit which used a modifield SC lower intake.........

[quick35th]

No, afraid not, but here is a teaser pic from the prototype water/air kit which used a modifield SC lower intake.........

Nice! Will that kit be availible to?

Shane

[BT Motorsports]

Nice! Will that kit be availible to?

Shane
Yes, it will be on a made to order basis, but it will be designed differently. It will most likely use a different intake manifold design which has more of a tuned runner and be setup to accept a cobra blower to keep costs down. Of course it requires a raised hood though.

Paul

[quick35th]

Yes, it will be on a made to order basis, but it will be designed differently. It will most likely use a different intake manifold design which has more of a tuned runner and be setup to accept a cobra blower to keep costs down. Of course it requires a raised hood though.

Paul

Nice! I bet with that kit a KennBell blower for the 03-04 Cobra on an SC would be really nice. Well just have to wait and see.

Shane

[Toms-SC]

Interesting development Paul, I think you are opening the door to more modifications then you can think of. Now techinallly if you modiify our intake manifold to work with a Cobra M112 blower, what would stop them from working with other aftermarket blowers? :confused: Get back to me, I am curious.

[BT Motorsports]

Now techinallly if you modiify our intake manifold to work with a Cobra M112 blower, what would stop them from working with other aftermarket blowers? :confused:
Nothing at all. You will need to use a raised hood unless I get ambitious enough to fit it under a stock hood though. The custom lower is actually being designed so it will accept a matching upper for a turbo setup in addition to a cobra unit.

Paul

[V6Sprout]

the Cobra 03 blower will not work without a custom fuel rail, I am working on a completely new custom intake for the 03 blower, which shoudl clear the stock hood, although it won't be intercooled at first, it can be spun slower to prodcue less drag and less heat so hopefully no IC will be fine at first, I will test it like that then add an IC as wel, but that will raise the blower and custom hood needed. I am still working on the design, working with a CAD/Solidworks guy to design it. Very slow progress but shoudl have more time starting in January to get workign on it. I already have the Cobra blower.

I love this Jag blower setup, looks much better and less complicated then a Cobra blower, way to go.

[seawalkersee]

Okay, now Im curious... I have looked at the difference in the blowers. Is there going to be anything available for the lightning blower? I dont have the m112 or the cobra blower but I DO have the lightning blower. The stupid thing feeds through the top and the back does not come off.

Chris

[cowtown]

Cool stuff, I don't know why I missed this earlier. What does a Jag M112 blower run?

[BT Motorsports]

Okay, now Im curious... I have looked at the difference in the blowers. Is there going to be anything available for the lightning blower? I dont have the m112 or the cobra blower but I DO have the lightning blower. The stupid thing feeds through the top and the back does not come off.

Chris
Once I get caught up with the current kit, I will be looking into adapting the lightning case. Nothing the CNC mill and some sheet metal can't fix. Email me for further discussion.

Paul

[MagpoweredSC]

a lightning blower that excepts the mag powers inlet plenum would be a perfect and more cost effective way than using a jag blower.

[V6Sprout]

might be hard to get the inlet ont he lightning blower to enter down at the bottom like the SC blower, but might be possible at the top, in that case just use a Saleen inlet, the Saleen blown cars actually use a Supercoupe blower flipped upside down, you can see the oil fill plug is upside down and the factory SC mounting holes are ont he blower but not used, Saleen built a custom inlet which locates the inlet at the top cause thats where it wits with teh SC blower upside down.

[Jason Wild]

Jamie
If you need someone to help with cad stuff let me know I can do some stuff

[BT Motorsports]

a lightning blower that excepts the mag powers inlet plenum would be a perfect and more cost effective way than using a jag blower.
Please elaborate on how you feel it will be more cost effective. I haven't yet mentioned cost of the jag kit for you to compare it to. Besides, using the L blower means a new or modified fuel rail or raised hood at this point in addition to the fact that the MP inlet would not put the TB in the stock location yeilding yet more changes needed to adapt it. Oh and a sheet metal inlet (or cast one for that matter) specific to the L blower would be less than an MP inlet and flow much more.
The purpose of the jag kit is to integrate with what people already have which will provide a substantial power gain as well as keep costs down. Using the L requires a new IC setup, one (water/air that is) which some people feel is to complex for their tastes. I only mentioned it and the cobra blower to offer more options to choose from.

Paul

[MagpoweredSC]

oh sorry, i was just placing an idea and didnt mean to offended you in such a way. I just thought it would be cheaper to pick up a lightning blower cuz ive seen em cheap and figured it would be hard or expensive to aquire a jaguar blower just because of the cost of the cars themselves. Maybe i should stop participating in these forums because i stated an idea that may not have been the best one.

[BT Motorsports]

There is no need to get defensive, I do want to hear what you have to say. If you have an idea that will make it cheaper then I am all for evaluating it which is why I asked you to elaborate. I agree, the L blowers are cheap (Sprout and I were just talking about them last night in fact), but they do not seem to be less work than the jag unit. Typically, the cost of the jag blower falls in between that of an L and a cobra unit on ebay. They are a bit less common to see available though. Since there seems to be a bit of interest in these kits, my direction lies in offering them as reasonably priced as possible allowing everyone the chance to afford them with the most options possible.

Paul

[DGernmann]

I just bought a 1999 Jag XJR, and have a SC...hmmm the damage I can do...lol. Hey my car is for sale. Nice kit Paul looks very kool of course the time I plan on getting rid of my car, cool ***** like this comes out.....

Good luck!!


Drew

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Hey Drew......You can get that Jag blower ported...Among other things...

When I had my xjr which happened to be a 99 I left it alone. When I sold it I bought my 94 SC. However the thought of doing an xjr......So very tempting..As soon as I overcome the burden of a NYC mortgage I'm all over that project!

Tell us You plan on modding it....They make headers for it ya know:O)

[ricardoa1]

Hey Drew......You can get that Jag blower ported...Among other things...

Hey what co is currently porting the JAg SC's Ive been searching on the net I have not come up with anything. I check out some of the jaguar performance stuff but all I can come up with is Arden Performance.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

Anyone that can port an m112 or m90 can port the jag blower..Unles sthey dont really understand teh dynamics of teh blower and were just copying someone else....Then again even that person should be able to do it..

I sent Drew a few links you may want to ask him :O)

[daivd z]

is there any new news on this? Is there going to be a kit coming out soon?

[BT Motorsports]

No #s to report at this time. I am working up pricing this week and will start accepting orders shortly after pricing is announced.

Paul

[turbospeed]

dyno # would be cool nice to have before the pricing :D

[ricardoa1]

Anyone that can port an m112 or m90 can port the jag blower..Unles sthey dont really understand teh dynamics of teh blower and were just copying someone else....Then again even that person should be able to do it..

I sent Drew a few links you may want to ask him :O)
send them to me too.
ricardoalfonseca@hotmail.com

[daivd z]

any news on pricing or dyno numbers yet?

[ricardoa1]

Anyone that can port an m112 or m90 can port the jag blower..Unles sthey dont really understand teh dynamics of teh blower and were just copying someone else....Then again even that person should be able to do it..

I sent Drew a few links you may want to ask him :O)


Damon since you made me work harder on looking for a place to port, I came up with this place.. http://www.pse.us/index.htm Is this one of the places you have checked out before.
These people seem to have perfected the Jaguar SC porting. Just like MP has perfected the M90 for our cars. And Steig. has perfected the Cobra SC.
After checking out the Jag sites they recoment these guys the most.
One of the people actually sent their Jag blower to Apten/Steig and they ruined that blower it only made 5psi.

[metalman]

It feels like money is burning a damn hole in my pocket for this project!

I can't wait to see what numbers the Water/air setup can achieve....as well as cost.

I've been holding out on any supercharger upgrades to my '90 SC for a twin screw or this M112. Hell, mine is even in need for a rebuild right now and I'm holding off of that. I figured, the money I would spend on upgrading my M90 with all the trimmings (FMIC, MP plenum, magnaported, etc), it would cost just as much to put a better SC on the car.

The only thing I've done to my Gen 1 is a raised top, replaced nose seal, IC fan, and ported/gasket matched the plenums myself. The next thing I do to my supercharger is get an upgrade here or twin screw design, but I'm really intrigued in the Water/air intercooler setup. I think that's the way I want to go.

...patiently waiting,

Metalman :cool:

[DGernmann]

ricardoa1,

Hey have you come across any pulleys that will fit the M112 off the Jag. I have the blower on my car so its hard to tell. Is the shaft the same size as the M90 or is it bigger/smaller, also do you think a Lighting or Mustang pulley would work on this supercharger. A site sells one but its like $320 and I am not that stupid to pay that for a pulley if its the same as a lighting etc.. thats only about ($85) Let me know. Thanks.


Drew

[ricardoa1]

ricardoa1,

Hey have you come across any pulleys that will fit the M112 off the Jag. I have the blower on my car so its hard to tell. Is the shaft the same size as the M90 or is it bigger/smaller, also do you think a Lighting or Mustang pulley would work on this supercharger. A site sells one but its like $320 and I am not that stupid to pay that for a pulley if its the same as a lighting etc.. thats only about ($85) Let me know. Thanks.


Drew

Paul can probably answer that question for you since he has worked on both superchargers. I am sure once he sees your post he will answer. On another note, I called that machine shop to see how much it was and they told me that they cannot tell me any info since they have an exclusive distributor called EuroToys and they cannot break their contract with them, anyways I called eurotoys and they told me the porting was $1,300 that includes the inlet plenum ported too and $1800~ if it needed overhauling and rebuild. He told me that if I simply send the case without any disassembly it will be $800. I got discouraged after those prices.
http://www.eurotoysltd.com/pages/1/index.htm

[BT Motorsports]

I am leaving work early today to get the pricing and information page finished up, I will have a link posted by the morning.

Drew, contact me via email or PM about pulleys.

Paul

[David Neibert]

I am leaving work early today to get the pricing and information page finished up, I will have a link posted by the morning.

Drew, contact me via email or PM about pulleys.

Paul

Paul,

Do you have any dyno numbers or performance expectations to release at this time ?

David

[BT Motorsports]

Paul,

Do you have any dyno numbers or performance expectations to release at this time ?

David
Nothing to release at this time. When I release #s, I will be offering first, a back to back comparison on a car with very light mods and a double IC, then a bone stock car with only fuel upgrades and lastly a fully built engine with every bell and whistle.

Paul

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I dont see why a person who ports lightning or cobra blowers cant port this....Id go that route

Anytghing jag is more $$ just for saying jag

Same concept

[ricardoa1]

I dont see why a person who ports lightning or cobra blowers cant port this....Id go that route

Anytghing jag is more $$ just for saying jag

Same concept



The blowers are different, the porting procedures might be the same, but those who have done R&D on them and have done it right is who gets the money in the end.

[Toms-SC]

any updates?

[metalman]

... ... ... ... ... ... the wait is killing me... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...


Metalman

[BT Motorsports]

... ... ... ... ... ... the wait is killing me... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...


Metalman
It's killing me also! I have many other projects waiting for completion which are held up because of this one.
Now that I finally have my site issues worked out, here is the link to the page which will contain pics, pricing and details on the kit......
www.BlueTongueMotorsports.com/M112/M90Upgrade.htm
I still need to edit and add a few pics.

Paul

[Hock]

So when are the prices going to be up?

[metalman]

The prices are up on his site. I noticed them a few weeks ago.



Is there any progress on the unit? How about the water-air intercooler option? That's what I'm interested in.

[SCaddict]

Now we need numbers!

[Greg Coleman]

We need numbers to compaire with the manaport 2 and to the AR!!! :D :D

[SCaddict]

Any numbers at all????

[BT Motorsports]

Any numbers at all????
I was actually at the dyno last Sat to get before and after #s, however, the car for the session had some mechanical issues which could not be resolved that day. The owner is still working out the bugs but expects to have it ready by this weekend. I have another session scheduled for April 2nd.

Paul

[seawalkersee]

Here here...

Chris

[redtbirdsc]

Any idea on what the turnaround time would be after ordering?
I will be ordering a sc here real soon and am still kinda of undecided between this and the MPII and need to have the car done soon so I can get the bugs worked out of my turbo coupe before carlisle

[Toms-SC]

Any idea on what the turnaround time would be after ordering?
I will be ordering a sc here real soon and am still kinda of undecided between this and the MPII and need to have the car done soon so I can get the bugs worked out of my turbo coupe before carlisle

Go with the M112 and get it Magnaported... :D

[Greg Coleman]

For that kind a money it better be a lot better than the magnaport 2 and almost as good as the AR!! :D

[fastsc92]

actually..when you add it up, its nearly the same cost for the MP set-up. However, don't doubt Paul, this thing makes some serious power and once the numbers are realised I think everyone will be happy with the results.

[Toms-SC]

And? Two weeks later

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

If all this works out I can see many benefits to this setup

#1 is replacement cost/rebuild cost
#2 Durability...Nothing beats an Eaton for that
#3 A complete package soup to nuts

The Eaton blowers are much more forgiving to being over revved

I'm unsure what kind of warrenty any of these kits have but it be a HELL of a lot cheaper rebuilding the Eaton(which probably will last 100,000 +miles anyway)

Hopefully well starty seeing some numbers for both the AR and this kit as well in the comming months. As far as the MpII kit..I'm sure both the Eaton kit here and the AR kit willmake more and efficiently more power

[BT Motorsports]

And? Two weeks later
Still haven't made it back to the dyno yet. Work and family matters have been in the way lately.

Paul

[Mike Manzo]

I would love to see this run...Been so long since anything really dynamic hit the street for the SC...

I wont buy one, though...

I already got one....

Came attached to my Cobra... ( giggle )

[seawalkersee]

I would love to see this run...Been so long since anything really dynamic hit the street for the SC...

I wont buy one, though...

I already got one....

Came attached to my Cobra... ( giggle )

On your sig it shows $1000.00. That must be per month :rolleyes:

Chris

[Mike Manzo]

Funny thing is I got the car for 31,200 in early 04 and cost me $1000 to bring it to that level of RWHP

[SilverCasket]

Almost 2 weeks later. .. Paul, it's only an hour at the dyno! Let RockET!

Anthony

[BT Motorsports]

Almost 2 weeks later. .. Paul, it's only an hour at the dyno! Let RockET!

Anthony
The nearest dyno is 2 hours from me as well as the test vehicle which means I will have to dedicate the better part of a day toward it. Since I have a regular full time job and this is something I do in my free time as a hobby, it gets prioritized accordingly (which obviously isn't very high at the moment). As I have also previously mentioned, family matters are coming first as well.

Paul

[seawalkersee]

Anything yet?

Chris

[BT Motorsports]

Ya, 6 hours at the track last night and an unlocatable vacuum leak :mad: I may try to track it down next weekend.

Paul

[seawalkersee]

Sorry to hear that...Keep us posted.

Chris

[sizemoremk]

Anymore luck???

[metalman]

God, I hope :D
I PMed him a couple days ago. I haven't heard anything back yet. But, no sweat. If I get a response...cool. If not I'm sure he'll make an anouncement when something goes down, or gets accomplished. This, especially the water-air unit, which I am interested in, seems like a huge undertaking. God bless him for it. I'm ready to slap that thing on my car though.

Metalman

[BT Motorsports]

Sorry guys, the M112 has taken a bit of a back seat lately. My fiance's 97 n/a has been requiring lots of attention lately and my fiance' has been driving me crazy with the wedding plans as well so there hasn't been much time left in the day after work. If I can get past the overheating problem her car has (which I hope will happen this weekend), I will be back on it very soon. In the mean time, below is another teaser pic for you metalman. Last report I received the car was making 25lbs of boost at 6500RPM in second with about 12% overdrive. It's pegging the 80 mm C&Hell maf with a green tube (about 1200CFM) with outlet temps from the blower around 380*. If I ever get an answer about a transfer function availability of the SCT maf, we may find out what the car can really do. The owner says 1st and 2nd gears are like driving on an ice skating rink with stock rearend gears.

Paul

[metalman]

Holy Crapola! Sounds great. Looks great. That's not an M112 on the car is it? It looks like an AR.

I have 355's in the rear, but crap...that might not be enought to keep the rearend with the engine :eek: What's the "transfer function availability of the SCT maf"?

Keep me posted. If you ever need another test mule... :D

Metalman

BTW- Congrats on the engagement! I just got engaged a couple months ago and were are rolling with the wedding plans full speed ahead. I know the time it takes.

[sizemoremk]

Ya'll need to take dem wimenz down to the courthouse, and get back to work on the SCs :cool:


Ya'll got your priorities mixed up :p

[BT Motorsports]

Holy Crapola! Sounds great. Looks great. That's not an M112 on the car is it? It looks like an AR.It certainly is an M112, the very same one shown in post # 49 (http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showpost.php?p=354405&postcount=49) of this thread.
What's the "transfer function availability of the SCT maf"?That is the problem, SCT will not provide an actual transfer function nor what the limit of the meter's capability is (which doesn't help anyone using a tuner btw) and David Dalke didn't respond to the transfer function question in another thread that I addressed him with the question. At some point, I will probably look into other options.
BTW- Congrats on the engagement!Thanks, it's actually been a few years, just now getting around to settling on a firm date and getting everything in motion, what a PITA.

Paul

[BT Motorsports]

Ya'll need to take dem wimenz down to the courthouse, and get back to work on the SCs :cool:


Ya'll got your priorities mixed up :p
Actually, the "wimenz" is the reason why I even went ahead with an M112 project for production. If it weren't for her, I would have sold the SC already and not bothered making anything new for it. Once I finish up the M112 kits, she expects the turbo kit for her 97 to be finished :rolleyes: It never ends.

Paul

[T-bird4vr]

That is the problem, SCT will not provide an actual transfer function nor what the limit of the meter's capability

Paul

That is bs, how do they expect you to use it?

[BT Motorsports]

That is bs, how do they expect you to use it?
If you are using the SCT software, they will provide a base file with a transfer function for it, however, they will not support it if you are tuning via other methods (or at least, that's what I was told when I inquired several months prior). I asked David Dalke about it in this (http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65625) thread, however, he has not replied as of yet.

Paul

[BKB]

Paul do you just want to know the MAX KG/HR the SCT MAF will flow? My friend is a SCT dealer i can ask him what it is?

[XR7 Dave]

What injectors are you using?

[XR7 Dave]

That is bs, how do they expect you to use it?They don't. That's the whole point.

[BT Motorsports]

Paul do you just want to know the MAX KG/HR the SCT MAF will flow? My friend is a SCT dealer i can ask him what it is?
Both actually, I don't see why I should have to build a transfer function from scratch if they already have a starting point for me. If I don't know its limits, I certainly will not advise my customer to purchase it when other companies are willing to support their own products.

What injectors are you using?Originally Posted by T-bird4vr
That is bs, how do they expect you to use it?

They don't. That's the whole point.Well David, I suppose since SCT AND YOU will not support the product, then there is no point discussing it further. When a new MAF is obtained from another manufacturer that can support the airflow requirements of this particular application, I will let everyone know what we settled on.
This is not the first time I have experienced SCT not supporting their product. Another of my customers purchased an SCT pro racers package and it took the second coming of christ and threats of legal action to get SCT to provide a file that didn't trigger his check engine light for EGR (which the car was not equipped with from the factory anyway). It's a shame, I actually like the SCT software and have had pretty good luck with it on the few vehicles I have tuned with it.

Paul

[T-bird4vr]

They don't. That's the whole point.

Wouldn't they sell more if they gave you that information? All that type of stuff is bs, I hate that junk.

Here is a quote from my old physics professor he just emailed me today.

Hi Julian,
nice report. I guess that the commercial world is very different from
the physics-research world...withholding information is a very serious
and very wrong thing to do ...

Yours,
John

:mad:

[XR7 Dave]

Both actually, I don't see why I should have to build a transfer function from scratch if they already have a starting point for me. If I don't know its limits, I certainly will not advise my customer to purchase it when other companies are willing to support their own products.

Well David, I suppose since SCT AND YOU will not support the product, then there is no point discussing it further. When a new MAF is obtained from another manufacturer that can support the airflow requirements of this particular application, I will let everyone know what we settled on.
This is not the first time I have experienced SCT not supporting their product. Another of my customers purchased an SCT pro racers package and it took the second coming of christ and threats of legal action to get SCT to provide a file that didn't trigger his check engine light for EGR (which the car was not equipped with from the factory anyway). It's a shame, I actually like the SCT software and have had pretty good luck with it on the few vehicles I have tuned with it.

Paul

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and perceptions. My opinions and comments are my own and should be considered as such. In light of that:

If SCT chooses not to release the MAF function for their meter to other than those who also purchase their software, why should it be something against me if I choose not to violate their position? Its not my meter after all. I sell and support C&L meters primarily for SC's since they work and they bolt in (ie. they are made for our application whereas the SCT meter is not). The fact is that the SCT meter was designed and intended to be used with the SCT software. It is not directly compatible with anything else. If you would choose to make it compatible with your application which does not include SCT software, that is up to you.

Frankly if it were up to me I'd probably give you the MAF function as I am interested in helping you out if possible. However, I have signed a lengthy agreement with SCT that requires that I NOT release or reproduce any of the information contained in the software. The data that makes up the SCT Big Air MAF function is very much a part of the SCT software. I will not be compromising my dealership license on account of anyone. Sorry if you find that offensive, its just how it is.

Julian, before I said anything about whether or not I'd forward the MAF data or why, Paul has already refused to state a simple fact as to what size injectors he's using. As you can see, I'm not the first to withold information, but at least I have a legitimate reason for doing so.

[XR7 Dave]

Wouldn't they sell more if they gave you that information? Not likely. I'm guessing here, but I think SCT prefers to sell products to the right people for the right applications. I think they sell quite a few of the meters as is.

[T-bird4vr]

Julian, before I said anything about whether or not I'd forward the MAF data or why, Paul has already refused to state a simple fact as to what size injectors he's using. As you can see, I'm not the first to withold information, but at least I have a legitimate reason for doing so.

Sparky, I was refering to sct above, not you at all.
But isn't the tf voltage vs. air flow? well, it acutally has to be. the other stuff is derived.

[seawalkersee]

Please guys...We are all adults here and I would like to see this thing finished. I do not want this to become one of those "Oh your on his side so dont talk to me" threads. I can see benefits from talking to both of you guys and picking your brains (as I have done in the past) and hope this project only moves forward. If you guys have a problem with eachother, I would be willing to bet that if you went into the same room and videotaped it, and watched two children read the scripts, you would see how easy a solution would be.

You human relations pro....PRO

Chris

[David Neibert]

Please guys...We are all adults here and I would like to see this thing finished. I do not want this to become one of those "Oh your on his side so dont talk to me" threads. I can see benefits from talking to both of you guys and picking your brains (as I have done in the past) and hope this project only moves forward. If you guys have a problem with eachother, I would be willing to bet that if you went into the same room and videotaped it, and watched two children read the scripts, you would see how easy a solution would be.

You human relations pro....PRO

Chris

Chris,

Dave already explained why he couldn't provide the SCT MAF transfer function data that Paul is asking for.

I'd buy one of those C&L tuner MAFs that uses the stock electronics.It also comes with the transfer function data he is looking for.

David

[BT Motorsports]

However, I have signed a lengthy agreement with SCT that requires that I NOT release or reproduce any of the information contained in the software. The data that makes up the SCT Big Air MAF function is very much a part of the SCT software.
Ok, here is a simple question that a yes or no answer will suffice. Is there a standard formula to convert from the #MASS/TIC to KG/HR? I suppose I could just walk upstairs and ask one of the engineers I work with, but I'd rather hear it from you David. If there is not an actual formula to directly relate the two, then providing a transfer function in KG/HR would not violate such an agreement as you have stated. "Que sera sera"
How do you tune a car for a customer that has an EEC tuner and an SCT MAF or do you tell them that you aren't allowed to do so because they will now have the transfer function for a MAF that is proprietary information? One must wonder how a client would feel in such a circumstance.
I suppose that means if I wanted to purchase an SCT maf from you, you would refuse the sale because you will not support the product?
Paul has already refused to state a simple fact as to what size injectors he's using. As you can see, I'm not the first to withold information, but at least I have a legitimate reason for doing so.I guess the fact that you decided to ignore my question in my previous post turned me off to sharing any more information on the setup than has already been posted. What has been overlooked however, is that this product is not yet for sale, unlike the MAF in question (it would be plain stupid from a business standpoint, if I was to try to sell it without representing the requirements of supporting items like injectors). I believe it is my right to defer from answering any questions prematurely while the product is still in testing. Then again, since I didn't sell or install the injectors, nor did I write the tune for the latest injector in the car, I really don't know the answer to that question anyway. What I do know is that the Jacobs accuvolt and an AFPR allowed the use of 50lbers before the boost was turned up to its present level, but the injectors have since been upgraded.

seawalkersee, I don't have any issues with David Dalke so there is no reason for concern. He is entitled to his opinion as stated even if I do not agree with it.

Anyway, this thread is getting off track. As I said before, I will advise how the MAF issue is handled, when it is handled. Until then, further posting in this thread will be limited directly to the kit(s) mentioned previously.


Paul

[joker12552]

That is totally ignorant that SCT will not give you the transfer function of thier mafs. I guess it is so that they can get more of thier tuners some business. Too bad Pro-m went out of business. I never have liked c&l and since sct is pulling this crap, it doesnt leave a whole lot of places to turn. I am convinced that a stand alone system is the way to go anyway when tuning a truly high end car. That way you take the maf companies and all these bs hand held tuner companies out of the picture.

[seawalkersee]

Dave, I am not trying to chose sides. I just want to learn and not get mixed up in a fighting match.

Back to the subject though. I hate to beat a dead horse but, what kind of MAF did Chris Wise use on his car? I thought I read that it was a 90 MM lightning MAF. Who and how did he git his car tuned in?

Chris

[XR7 Dave]

Ok, here is a simple question that a yes or no answer will suffice. Is there a standard formula to convert from the #MASS/TIC to KG/HR? I suppose I could just walk upstairs and ask one of the engineers I work with, but I'd rather hear it from you David. If there is not an actual formula to directly relate the two, then providing a transfer function in KG/HR would not violate such an agreement as you have stated. "Que sera sera"

Yes there is a formula to convert, in fact its really quite simple. #mass is just what it says "pounds mass" and a "TIC" is a representation of voltage. Standard electronics stuff.

How do you tune a car for a customer that has an EEC tuner and an SCT MAF or do you tell them that you aren't allowed to do so because they will now have the transfer function for a MAF that is proprietary information? One must wonder how a client would feel in such a circumstance.
I suppose that means if I wanted to purchase an SCT maf from you, you would refuse the sale because you will not support the product?I'm not sure how to answer that question as it seems unlikely that anyone would buy the SCT MAF for a car with an EEC Tuner when other more practical options exist. I certainly don't recommend the SCT MAF for cars that do not have an SCT chip or tuning software.

I guess the fact that you decided to ignore my question in my previous post turned me off to sharing any more information on the setup than has already been posted. I didn't realize you were that sensitive. I'm not sure I ever recall reading that question, but perhaps I did and chose not to respond based on my not being able to give you the answer you wanted. Either way it wasn't personal and I don't even remember what the reason was or wasn't.

What has been overlooked however, is that this product is not yet for sale, unlike the MAF in question (it would be plain stupid from a business standpoint, if I was to try to sell it without representing the requirements of supporting items like injectors).

How so? I thought I saw prices listed on your website, and it certainly wouldn't be the first time a product was introduced without full knowledge of what said product was capable of. Perhaps the rest of us are all "stupid" business people because we sell products that we have not tested to their breaking points.

I believe it is my right to defer from answering any questions prematurely while the product is still in testing. Then again, since I didn't sell or install the injectors, nor did I write the tune for the latest injector in the car, I really don't know the answer to that question anyway. What I do know is that the Jacobs accuvolt and an AFPR allowed the use of 50lbers before the boost was turned up to its present level, but the injectors have since been upgraded.

Certainly it is your right to say or not say whatever you choose. However, it was a simple question and it has nothing to do with your product, but rather it has everything to do with your problem that you seem to be having. I was trying to help in ways that I can as opposed to your request for help in ways that I cannot assist you.

Anyway, this thread is getting off track. So far all I've done is respond to my name being brought into the discussion. If that takes the thread off topic then it's certainly not my doing.

[MikeKanterakis]

My SC goes ZOOM ZOOM zOOM!! POP! (and then it's just quiet)


:D
:D
:D
:D

Glad to see that everything is how I left it before Carlisle.

:D
So, how exactly does the MAF work in these cars? anyone got that Ford 5.0 emissions book?

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I cant say I agree with SCT not wanting to give the transfer function out but I guess its thier choice.

Now to go even further off track they havnt sent me the database for my SCT software that I have been asking for for the past 3 months that was promised...

Imagine that.

Great software. To bad they are so worried about someone stealing it that they COMPLETELY inconvienience paying customers with thier anti pirating crap and send out incomplete software packages.

[Micahdogg]

"Great software. To bad they are so worried about someone stealing it that they COMPLETELY inconvienience paying customers with thier anti pirating crap and send out incomplete software packages."

Can you blame them though? Shiftmaster comes out with a tuner....one person buys it and the other builds the tuning board and copies the software. Unfortunately that's how things work. If you can buy something for hundreds of dollars....or build/copy it on the cheap...we all know which way the market goes (mp3's, DVD ripping, game copying).

BTW...there is a solution to all this stuff. Carbs and a mechanical distributor.

Micah

[fast Ed]

BTW...there is a solution to all this stuff. Carbs and a mechanical distributor.

Micah

HA!! Don't forget the front drum brake conversion while you're at it. ;) :p


cheers
Ed N.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I have bought software costing thousands of dollars more with none of this antipirating nonesence. A computer genious could surely crack the SCT software.

That same genious would be the one copying it to begin with if anyone. I dont see how it's really protecting them.

So for the typical hotrodder using it, the protection is nothing more then a nuisance.

Unfortunately in America even if you do patent something it can be copied in China..The land of no patent laws.

Regardless the M112 kit looks sweet. Cant wait to see how it performs

[Feld]

Any news on the M112 project?

[BT Motorsports]

Well, I finally have a bit of a brief update to report. The problems with the test vehicle have been solved. We were having a tremendous issue with varying air/fuel ratio regardless of any tuning changes. Some moments it would be stoich during cruise, then suddenly it would drop to 10:1 or richer out of no where. It also would stall when you went into boost (the wideband would go off the scale rich). It ended up being an intermittant ground loss from the wire that goes to the bolt on the back of the driver's side head below the fuel pressure regulator bracket (this is an early SC) because the bolt had loosened and backed out. Every time the pin was probed, it showed good ground and the problem could not be duplicated. It wasn't until tearing the blower and fuel rail off that the cause was discovered and tended to.

With that issue now addressed, the car makes 13lbs of boost with the M112 blower turning slower than the stock M90 (see attached thumbnail of chart modified from Mike Tuck's original spreadsheet) at 2715 feet elevation. By comparison, the same exact car with no other changes could barely squeak out 14lbs of boost with a 2.95" blower pulley and ESM jack pulley (see attached thumbnail for speed comparison, jackshaft pulley measurements used are from data posted by Stan W.) at the same elevation.

Unfortunately, I do not have any AIT data from the M90 to compare to the M112, however, I will be posting the M112 data once tuning is complete. Likely, that will take place in 2-3 weeks as the car is currently being fitted with a new intercooler. This unit is an air/water setup utilizing a stock cobra heat exchanger, Lightning IC pump, 3.2 gallon resevoir and water/air IC core rated for 700CFM/.5psi pressure loss. The IC bolts directly to the stock upper and lower IC tubes without modification. Datalogging of inlet and outlet temps will take place to determine the efficiency of this setup as it will likely become an option for this kit.

After getting the tune dialed in, the last stage will be to turn the boost up. This will be accomplished by swapping the ESM jack pulley back on the car. I expect to have a map senser installed by then so boost my be logged back to back for comparison purposes in addition to AIT data.

As usual, more info will be posted when it comes available (which is when my schedule permits the time to work on it).

Paul

[Micahdogg]

Infamous HEGO wire. I had a similar problem. Don't recall it doing anything other than causing 02's to spaz and gauge read wrong though.

What size pulley are you using on the blower. Just wondering what overall diameter you would want on a blower that big.

Micah

[BT Motorsports]

Infamous HEGO wire. I had a similar problem. Don't recall it doing anything other than causing 02's to spaz and gauge read wrong though.

What size pulley are you using on the blower. Just wondering what overall diameter you would want on a blower that big.

Micah
That wonderful HEGO wire is the "fuel control circuit ground" (or something to that effect, don't recall the exact wording) and without it, the car goes into a major limp mode. I suppose someone else here more familiar with the circuit can explain it better than I. Funny thing is, I had checked this wire previously since I had encountered a similar rich condition (wasn't intermittent though) on another car some time ago, just never checked the bolt and lug themselves.

Pulley size is listed in the attached charts. The blower pulley is 3.35".

Paul

[XR7 Dave]

It may also be a partial coincidence. I drove my car for weeks without that wire connected and all I got was O2 sensor check engine lights. Never did notice any significant problems. However, if injectors were exceptionally large then the problem could also be amplified (mine were 38's at the time).

I've also seen the sudden extreme rich condition on cars that did not have that problem (or even that circuit for that matter). I tend to think that the extreme rich condition has more to do with a crossing of the EEC's logic under certain conditions which may not be repeatable from car to car. Finally, since we can't tell exactly where the EEC is getting it's data from (which table, etc) then it can sometimes make accurate diagnosis difficult.

But hey, if it is working now then life is good.

[metalman]

Quote from BT Motorsports- This unit is an air/water setup utilizing a stock cobra heat exchanger, Lightning IC pump, 3.2 gallon resevoir and water/air IC core rated for 700CFM/.5psi pressure loss. The IC bolts directly to the stock upper and lower IC tubes without modification.

I though the Cobra IC was a sandwich style. What is going to bolt up to the IC tubes then? You mean we can't get rid of the piping? :( Maybe I'm not getting how the setup works. Any pic perhaps :)

Metalman

[BT Motorsports]

I though the Cobra IC was a sandwich style. What is going to bolt up to the IC tubes then? You mean we can't get rid of the piping? :( Maybe I'm not getting how the setup works. Any pic perhaps :)

Metalman
Metalman, the system I am referring to is just like the setup Mark runs:
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67362&highlight=intercooler
but it attaches in place of the the stock IC and mates to the stock IC tubes.

After I start filling orders for the air/air M112 kit, I will likely offer a design very much like the cobra setup (probably use a Lightning blower for a core).

Paul

[metalman]

Are you still gonna be doing a lower intake like you had previously mentioned for the Water/air?

[BT Motorsports]

Are you still gonna be doing a lower intake like you had previously mentioned for the Water/air?
Yes.


Paul

[Pablo94SC]

Well???? What's the word?

[Toms-SC]

Oh...THIS thread again :D

[Grims95SC]

In 2004 it was "95%" finished. 2 years later, its not so I'm assuming it was dropped.

[Feld]

Well he has kit prices on his website, so I hope not. I have been looking forward to getting one but would like to see the dyno numbers first.

[DamonSlowpokeBaumann]

I dont even wnat to go into what I have had 95% finished for the last two years..An dits a hell of alot more then my SC!

[BT Motorsports]

In 2004 it was "95%" finished. 2 years later, its not Says who? What exactly defines "finished" to you?

There are a few completed running kits on cars being used on the street daily. I owe one person an air/air kit and another a water/air kit so those are not "finished". Those two aside, these are pretty low on my priority list right now.
As I have said previously As usual, more info will be posted when it comes available (which is when my schedule permits the time to work on it).

Paul

[fast Ed]

Paul, any power numbers from those cars yet, that you are able to post? Or do they still need some fine-tuning before you would like to say anything?


cheers
Ed N.

[BT Motorsports]

Paul, any power numbers from those cars yet, that you are able to post? Or do they still need some fine-tuning before you would like to say anything?


cheers
Ed N.
Ed, I will not be quoting any #s from customer's cars. All I will say is that the #s have been right on with my predicitions and both the customers and myself are very pleased with the results.
At some point in time, when I get my personal vehicle and/or the test mule on the rollers, I will likely add those charts to the web page. There has just been way to much slamming and arguing in various threads over the past year or two because of dyno #s, track performance or looks. After watching the AR vs. MP thread, I have better things to do with my time than go through that kind of mud which benefitted absolutely no one in this community.

Paul

[Feld]

If you don't mind my asking, how do you get the blower to bolt down?

[BT Motorsports]

If you don't mind my asking, how do you get the blower to bolt down?The first 2 units had brackets made which bolt to the original mounting bosses. The third and future units use a snout support in the front that ties into the water pump studs in a manner quite similiar to what Dave Dalke started using later on in his Autorotor kits. The rear has a custom bracket.

Paul

[Feld]

Ah, I see..


Thanks for the info!

[sizemoremk]

So where are you on the kits?

I might be interested in the air/air version...

[coupeCorona]

so if i order a kit how long dose it take to be shipped out?

[BT Motorsports]

so if i order a kit how long dose it take to be shipped out?
At this time, due to my current schedule, I am not taking any orders which require a commitment to delivery date.

Paul

[turbospeed]

do you think you could post the results in the near future , i would like to add either an AR mp3 or m112 to my car and it will be good to start playing with the numbers, hp and prices

[Greg Coleman]

Interesting as I would like to see this myself.AR or m112??