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rzimmerl
10-11-2004, 07:17 PM
has anyone had this done to an early blower? prices, results, anything about this? also how rough are blower cases after about 100k, here is what my old one that i took off looks like, i think i can sand them out but is it worth saving? I also noticed some small nics in the rotors. I am trying to port this blower and rebuild it this winter.

XR7 Dave
10-11-2004, 07:33 PM
Sanding them out would be a bad idea. That would increase the clearance even more. The case can be coated but getting the rotors out of the gear plate for coating is not practical.

Tony8470
10-12-2004, 11:17 PM
so it would be more practical to coat the case rather than the rotors? Anyone tried coating either the rotors or case of their early style blowers?

BobGPz
10-12-2004, 11:28 PM
charles warner can rebuid them and other options at http://www.magnumpowers.com/sc_idx.html

Tony8470
10-12-2004, 11:31 PM
Well what I'm really looking for is the ways and means to get this stuff done myself. I'm going to port the SC as rzimmerl is. And while everything is out, coat the apropriate parts with teflon.

kenewagner
10-13-2004, 09:25 AM
Well what I'm really looking for is the ways and means to get this stuff done myself. I'm going to port the SC as rzimmerl is. And while everything is out, coat the apropriate parts with teflon.

I am modifying my blower extensively and one of the changes is installing a set of teflon coated rotors. I bought the rotors used from a GP club site. I had pictures sent of it to be sure the teflon was still on the rotors and not wore or flaked off. From talking to some of the big dogs out there who are running the faster SCs Installing teflon coated rotors should close up the tolerances some. Even a few thousands of an inch should be an improvement and probably less heat as well because of less friction. Thats is my opinion, maybe other will disagree

David Neibert
10-13-2004, 11:28 AM
Yes late model teflon coated rotors will help. My MPII gained 1-1/2 pounds of boost at full tilt by installing a set of 94/95 rotors. I was able to slow down the blower 3% without losing any power. I've now got bare aluminum rotors and went back to overdriving it a little more which isn't nearly as efficent.

ESM used to plastic coat the inside of the blower case and remachine it to obtain tighter clearance. I'm not sure if they are still doing it, but I'm sure Paul (BTM) can answer that.

Just be careful not to make the tolerances too tight. Leave at least .002 inch to allow for rotor and case deflection under max load.

David

Tony8470
10-13-2004, 06:28 PM
Ok, I called magnuson, they said the clearance between the rotors and the case is .004. I guessing we could coat the case up to .004 then?

David Neibert
10-14-2004, 12:44 AM
Tony,

It's not quite that easy. To get it right, the plastic coating is applied to the inside of the case thick enough that the case can be fixtured in a lathe to machine the final bore concentric with the rear bearings. It takes some special fixturing to hold the case.

BTW, .004 is the standard clearance, but for those people looking for more performance the rotor tip to case clearance can be as tight as .002.

David

Shockwave
10-14-2004, 01:21 AM
I was thinking about using some Dupli-color High heat paint on the inside of the case and the rotors. I don't see why this wouldn't work, even if you go the clearance too tight it would wear off easy. I think you can mask off the rotor plate and just paint the rotors. Then cover the rear bearings and paint the inside. The High heat paint is good to 1200 degrees and resistant to oil and automotive fluids. I am buying an extra blower to try this on, should be fun.

Jerry

Tony8470
10-14-2004, 03:31 PM
Jerry, one of my concerns as well as the concern of one of the engineers I'm talking to from Eaton is any coating being ingested into the motor. He told me it would be better to buy the coated rotors from magnuson instead. Im not looking to spend that kind of money and have found some places that can coat as little as .0007. Which is far below any effective level, but signifys their ability to deal with close tolerances.

Tony8470
10-14-2004, 03:33 PM
My e-mail from the engineer.

The rotor coating process is one that is tightly controlled due to it's
impact to performance and durability. The prep of the rotors for proper
coating adhesion is a critical part of that process. It is not
recommended that any alternative process be employed as that process has
not been validated. In addition the base aluminum rotor profile is
different between the 1990 MY uncoated rotor and the 1994 MY coated
rotors. Coating of the 1990 MY rotors won't allow the correct operating
clearances to be achieved. I did confirm that the 1990 MY assembly
could be assembled with the coated rotating assembly from the 1994 MY
design as a direct replacement. I would recommend this as your best
option. Contact Magnuson regarding purchase of a 29650 Bearing Plate
Sub-assembly. Be sure to follow their recommendations for oil and
sealant for assembly.

Shockwave
10-14-2004, 05:12 PM
Well there is no doubt that a set of Eaton coated rotors are the best way to go. I was just thinking about a way to increase the efficiency of the uncoated rotors. I have seen the late model blower rotors with the coating flaking off. You know that the stuff is going through the motor. I would think that a little automotive paint isn't going to hurt the motor either.

The more I think about it, it seems that a good powder coating of the inside of the case would really help. I would think that if the clearance got too tight the rotors would just wear into the new coating.

Jerry

Tony8470
10-14-2004, 05:36 PM
magnuson wants 380 for the teflon coated rotors and 35 labor. I need to squeeze some info out of this engineer.............

David Neibert
10-14-2004, 05:37 PM
Well there is no doubt that a set of Eaton coated rotors are the best way to go. I was just thinking about a way to increase the efficiency of the uncoated rotors. I have seen the late model blower rotors with the coating flaking off. You know that the stuff is going through the motor. I would think that a little automotive paint isn't going to hurt the motor either.

The more I think about it, it seems that a good powder coating of the inside of the case would really help. I would think that if the clearance got too tight the rotors would just wear into the new coating.

Jerry

Jerry,

I would be leary of powder coating it. I had the inside of my intake manifold and the intake runners on the heads powder coated (for heat insulation and improved air flow), and within 6 months I found that large peices had peeled/flaked off and were consumed by the engine.

Apparently the combination of heat and oil mist was more than it could take. Never had any problems with the plastic coated case or the exterior portions of the powder coated heads and intake manifold.

David

XR7 Dave
10-14-2004, 06:18 PM
My S model blower, which has a different coating than the 94-95 blowers, has over 40K miles on it and the rotors show absolutely no signs of flaking or chipping.

It is good to know that the rotor shapes are different between the bare and coated rotors. No need to go wrecking things just because you didn't know. :rolleyes:

I think the GTP option or even new rotors for $400 isn't a bad deal. Considering that you get new bearings and seals in the bearing plate makes that a decent deal all by itself. I think a properly ported early style case with new coated rotors would be an excellent low-buck option for a performance M90.

rzimmerl
10-14-2004, 06:33 PM
I agree it is a cheaper way then puchasng an MP2 blower, i think i might try this route if i can scrouge up 400 bucks and see what happens. anyone know magnuson phone or email. So accroding to what we know now, you could buy a used GTP blower and just swap the rotor pack, but years are the newer style rotors?

Tony8470
10-14-2004, 10:34 PM
Ok, the low down is. You have to buy the plate with rotors because you can't press out the rotors from the plate (bearing damage will occur). The 94 rotors actually are machined further to accomodate for the coating, which is a sort of powdercoat. The clearance between the rotors is .004 and the rotors to the case is .004 as well. The only economical way to do this is to coat the blower case (the bore) and that would only incrementally increase efficiency. I'm not sure that a GTP bearing plate would work. I will look into that, they may be the same as the 94/95. BUT the 89-93 and the 94/95 rotor and bearing plate assembly WILL swap for more efficiency. Of which they are $380. And magnuson will not sell them unless they install them.

Maguson's number is:
(805) 642-8833

Email: [email protected]
Website: www.magnusonproducts.com

XR7 Dave
10-14-2004, 10:41 PM
Thanks Tony, very nice info.

Also, yes the GTP rotors are the same or similar to the 94/95 rotors and can be swapped in, bearing plate and all, into our M90's.

David Neibert
10-15-2004, 02:09 AM
Thanks Tony, very nice info.

Also, yes the GTP rotors are the same or similar to the 94/95 rotors and can be swapped in, bearing plate and all, into our M90's.

Really....I may just have to wait until Kathy is out of town for a couple days and do a little rotor transplant surgery on her GTP. :D

If she ever found out I pirated her car for go fast parts........Nevermind I don't even want to think about what would happen.

David

BlackbirdSC
10-15-2004, 10:24 AM
....Of which they are $380. And magnuson will not sell them unless they install them.

Maguson's number is:
(805) 642-8833

Email: [email protected]
Website: www.magnusonproducts.com

So Magnuson won't see the rotor pack unless they physically put it into the case? That would suck trying to get a MPII done with new rotors if they won't sell the rotors without a case.

Ryan A Harris
10-15-2004, 01:36 PM
I wonder why they MUST insatll the rotors? Also good to see they DO NOT RECOMMEND that the rotors be pressed off the case, bearing damage, good thing I haven't tried that yet.


Super homework TONY, thanks.

And thanks for email for MAGNUSOn.

J57ltr
10-15-2004, 04:11 PM
My S model blower, which has a different coating than the 94-95 blowers, has over 40K miles on it and the rotors show absolutely no signs of flaking or chipping.

It is good to know that the rotor shapes are different between the bare and coated rotors. No need to go wrecking things just because you didn't know. :rolleyes:

I think the GTP option or even new rotors for $400 isn't a bad deal. Considering that you get new bearings and seals in the bearing plate makes that a decent deal all by itself. I think a properly ported early style case with new coated rotors would be an excellent low-buck option for a performance M90.

Are you sure the shapes are different between the rotor packs? because I am not seeing it. I also picked up a 98' M90 from a GP so I am going to test fit them this weekend.

Jeff

XR7 Dave
10-15-2004, 04:19 PM
Are you sure the shapes are different between the rotor packs? because I am not seeing it. I also picked up a 98' M90 from a GP so I am going to test fit them this weekend.

Jeff

I was just going off of this:
In addition the base aluminum rotor profile is different between the 1990 MY uncoated rotor and the 1994 MY coated
rotors. From the post above which came from
one of the engineers (Tony was) talking to from Eaton

Tony8470
10-15-2004, 05:33 PM
The difference between the 90 and 94 rotors is that the 94 is machined further down to accomodate for the powdercoating. It might help to add that the 94 rotors have the powdercoating machined off the tips, and front and back of the rotors. I don't know if it's fully machined off, but they are machined DOWN, at the very least. The general shape of the rotors remain the same though.

tripntx
10-15-2004, 09:56 PM
Product called Guncoat may have possibilities, if it'll adhere to aluminum. It's a spraygun epoxy or teflon paint product used by gunsmiths. Requires baking to dry properly. Withstands cleaning solvent, oils, and barrel heat.

Shockwave
10-16-2004, 01:52 AM
Product called Guncoat may have possibilities, if it'll adhere to aluminum. It's a spraygun epoxy or teflon paint product used by gunsmiths. Requires baking to dry properly. Withstands cleaning solvent, oils, and barrel heat.

Unfortunately we can't use anything that would bake the rotors because of the bearing seals on the rotor plate. I think most of us are not willing to remove the rotors from the gears and change out the bearings and seals. The fact that your could get brand new coated rotors for $400 makes that prohibitive I think. You can easily press out the rear bearings from the case and have the inside of the case coated and baked if neccessary. I'm willing to try and coat at least the inside of the case and fill in the scratches and tighten the tolerances a bit.

Jerry

tripntx
10-16-2004, 05:49 AM
Thanks, I didn't know bearings and gears where attached during rebuild. Never have taken one apart or really looked at all pieces. But, I better start learning because I want to disassemble mine for a mild home port and then try to close the clearance between rotor and case a little.

Wynn also mentioned coating the case, instead of rotors, which would help smooth it out.

Another firearm coating is Alumahyde II sold by Brownells. It comes in a spray can, makes a very hard, oil, and solvent resistent finish, but requires a full week to properly set before being handled.

Shockwave
10-16-2004, 06:41 AM
Thanks, I didn't know bearings and gears where attached during rebuild. Never have taken one apart or really looked at all pieces. But, I better start learning because I want to disassemble mine for a mild home port and then try to close the clearance between rotor and case a little.

Wynn also mentioned coating the case, instead of rotors, which would help smooth it out.

Another firearm coating is Alumahyde II sold by Brownells. It comes in a spray can, makes a very hard, oil, and solvent resistent finish, but requires a full week to properly set before being handled.


You can replace the two front snout bearings and the two rear needle bearings quite easily. After you remove the front of the case, you will see the two main rotor gears on the rotor plate. The gears are pressed onto the rotor shafts which have bearings and seals on them to seal the blower case from the front section. These gears are timed to the rotors and would need a fixture to hold them in precise place while pressing them back onto the rotor shafts. You can seperate the front nose section and the case from the rotor plate. So to do a normal rebuild you don't mess with the two main bearings for the rotors on the rotor plate. There are a couple of people on the board that have replaced the two main rotor bearings themselves, but I think Magnuson is the only place that is Authorized by Eaton to do this. Contact TBird88 @ www.texasthunderbirds.com (http://www.texasthunderbirds.com) for all your rebuild parts and questions.

J57ltr
10-16-2004, 02:18 PM
The difference between the 90 and 94 rotors is that the 94 is machined further down to accomodate for the powdercoating. It might help to add that the 94 rotors have the powdercoating machined off the tips, and front and back of the rotors. I don't know if it's fully machined off, but they are machined DOWN, at the very least. The general shape of the rotors remain the same though.


Tony I don't know who you are speaking with from Eaton, but I don't see it. I have spent about 2 hours measuring the rotors from the early and late rotors and the early rotors measure 1.316" at the fat part of a lobe the late model measures 1.324" this equates to a thickness of .004" thick I have one part at the tip of the late rotor where the epoxy is coming loose that thickness measures .003".

The entire rotor is coated except the steel shaft that runs through the it.

The length of the rotor is 6" on a early rotor, Since the late model rotor pack is in really good condition I'm not taking it apart. I have removed rotors on several other rotor packs and haven't had a problem putting them back together, as long as you mark everything and make damn sure that everything iss exactly where it is supposed to be or the rotors will rub.

You may damage the bearings if you aren't careful but if you are careful you shouldn't have a problem.

Anodizing the case and rotors would probably be an easier option, plus you can control how much thickness that can be added, and a Hard Anodize makes the surface harder to abraid. I cor a card in the mail about a place that does teflon coating on hard to coat materials, I haven't had a chance to check it out yet.


Ask your guy at Eaton what this is for.

Tony8470
10-16-2004, 03:11 PM
Tony I don't know who you are speaking with from Eaton, but I don't see it. I have spent about 2 hours measuring the rotors from the early and late rotors and the early rotors measure 1.316" at the fat part of a lobe the late model measures 1.324" this equates to a thickness of .004" thick I have one part at the tip of the late rotor where the epoxy is coming loose that thickness measures .003".

The TIPS of the rotors are machined down after the coating process. I don't know how much they are machined down as a whole to accomodate for the coating. The difference between the numbers you are showing me is .008" which could possibly mean they are machined as a whole down .005" and coated an additional .003" with the powdercoat.



The entire rotor is coated except the steel shaft that runs through the it.
Yes, but the tips and front and back of the rotors that "touch" the plates are machined down after coating.


I have removed rotors on several other rotor packs and haven't had a problem putting them back together.
The issue with pressing them is not having the rotors touch each other after reinstallation, but the fact that you will get dimples in the bearings, he had a specific word for it. While it MAY function fine for 10-20,000 miles. They will fail prematurely after being pressed out.

I think the general concensus is that it would be a good idea to buy the 94 or GTP rotor pack and put those in. OR coat the case for slightly better efficiency.

J57ltr
10-16-2004, 03:43 PM
The number I gave basically means that there is a coating of .004" on the surface of the rotor. Which proves that the rotor is the same exact size and that the coating is the added amount. The .003" at the tip just confirms that the thickness is the same, since it is going to be very hard to get the exact measurment. The bore on the early and late model case is exactly the same.

I just finished taking apart a 98' M90 and after I figure out how to remove the carbon on the rotors I'll have numbers for those as well. Whoever said that GM fluid doesn't smell as bad hasn't smelled this one. Yuck!

There are no machine marks on the coated rotors so I don't see your logic that htey are machined after they are coated.

It all depends How you remove the rotors whether you damage the bearing. They can be removed without damage although it is a pain in the shorts.

I know a guy that works in the supercharger division of Eaton as well so where is all this info you are getting?

Jeff

Tony8470
10-16-2004, 03:56 PM
Timothy Kish if that rings a bell? An engineer for Eaton. I'll shoot you a PM later in the day about what I've gone over with him, for the most part though, I've posted it here as it's all very good information for future reference.

tripntx
10-16-2004, 05:58 PM
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10-16-2004, 06:02 PM
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tripntx
10-16-2004, 06:04 PM
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10-16-2004, 06:05 PM
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http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=20475&title=BAKING+LACQUER+LIQUID

tripntx
10-16-2004, 06:10 PM
BAKING LACQUERS Black & Clear - Epoxy-Like Finishes For "Unbluable" Guns & Metals Plus Special Finishing Effects

Even if your shop is set up for hot salts bluing, rust bluing and nickel plating, there are still many, many guns and parts out there that can’t be finished with any of those methods. Or, special guns, like Brownings with gray receivers, or engraved guns, that you don’t want to blue. Or, low-priced guns that need a fast, economical, tough finish. The cure: These unique, spray on, Baking Lacquers! Highly resistant to scratching, chipping, oils, solvents and sweat. Two colors: Black - non-reflective, matte finish. Great on those unbluable, newer Winchester 94’s and tough-to-blue cast iron, single- and double- barrel receivers. Ideal for aluminum triggerguards, grip frames and receivers, stainless steel barrels and extended, screw-in choke tubes. Duplicates many military finishes. Clear - One way to get the “gray” finish as used by many engravers and factories on their high grade guns is to polish and/or bead blast, then spray on clear Baking Lacquer. The tough, durable finish lets the beauty of the natural metal show through.

Application procedure is simple: thin the lacquer (our Thinner Only) as needed; apply with an artist’s airbrush; let air dry 1-2 hours; then bake at 325° F. for 20 minutes.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1136&title=BAKING+LACQUERS

Tony8470
10-16-2004, 06:12 PM
OK, the M90 is a very precise piece that reaches tolerances that simply spraying something onto WILL not be acceptable. The possibility of a piece being chipped off at nearly 15,000 rpms and possibly being thrown through the SC a couple times, then finally being ingested into the motor is also unacceptable to me and I'm sure many others on this board.

tripntx
10-16-2004, 06:13 PM
Y'all know more about blowers than I do. Will any of these products work instead the case?
Considering taking mine apart for a mild port and may use one to close the gap some.

I'm sure they would work well on the outside and on homebuilt tubes, etc.
The stainless steel color should look good on these.

tripntx
10-16-2004, 06:14 PM
Hey Tony, you answered as I was typing.

J57ltr
10-18-2004, 10:26 AM
OK, the M90 is a very precise piece that reaches tolerances that simply spraying something onto WILL not be acceptable. The possibility of a piece being chipped off at nearly 15,000 rpms and possibly being thrown through the SC a couple times, then finally being ingested into the motor is also unacceptable to me and I'm sure many others on this board.

Got your PM and sent you one as well. Don't forget there is a filter after the SC, it's called the IC.LOL!.

Jeff

David Neibert
10-18-2004, 11:48 AM
Tony,

The M90 that came on our cars is little more than a glorified egg beater. It's not very precise and it's much more durable than most people think. My MPII with a late model rotor pack ate two stainless steel screws (from TB plate) while on the dyno, but still pulled 369 rwhp afterward. I drove the car for nearly a year with seriously gouged rotors and case, and actually ran my best ET with it. The fresh MPII with bare rotors that replaced it late last year, did not provide any additional power.

BTW, I've never seen teflon coated rotors that had the tips remachined after coating. I think that would defeat much of the purpose for even having the teflon coating.

David