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quick35th
10-27-2004, 10:47 AM
Heres the new thread so we dont hijack anyone elses thread anymore.

My project: I am starting out with a 1990 35th Anny that I am going to pick up in december. It has blown HG so that makes it a prime subject for this type of swap. This project is under somewhat of a budget.

My goals: I want to build a 347ci stroker motor and put it in the car. I will be gutting it completely leaving only the factory dash but gutted as well. I will be using this car mainly for autocross with maybe some open track events too. I am not building this car for any specific class in open track. I will probably just mess around with local clubs that go open tracking, but autocross is going to be its main purpose.

Hardware: I have not desided on what brands of internals to use (I was hoping you guys can help with this) or heads yet. I was thinking of using Ford GT40 aluminum heads as they are cheap and provide good increase in power teamed with a Trick Flow upper and lower intack. A E303 or F303 cam would be my choise as of now but could change. I dont know what kind of reasonable RPM range I could safely run the motor too. I know it all depends on internals, valve train, how well the head and intake breath etc. Is 6500 RPM realistic? I would like to get a Canton 7qrt oil pan so I dont get any oil starvation. A AJE tubular kmember will be employed to save weight and increase engine acsesability from underneith the car. Fuel injection is a must. I will be using a manual tranny. Wether it be a M5R2 or that of a Tremec 3550, 3650 or even a T-56. Bigger brakes and suspenssion mods will also acomidate this car.

Ok now what are the things I will need for this swap? Will the motor mounts on the V6 work with the V8? You guys feel free to post at will with everything I will need. I appreciate all the info and help! Am I on the right path, have I over looked something along the way, any suggestions? I will post my progress along the way with pics too.

Shane

ThunderCoupe94
10-27-2004, 11:43 AM
Shane is this the one off Ebay?? I am just curious. I hope the project goes well for ya man... Good luck

Jay

quick35th
10-27-2004, 12:43 PM
Shane is this the one off Ebay?? I am just curious. I hope the project goes well for ya man... Good luck

Jay

Jay it is not the one off ebay. This one is in much better shape but is all black so thats something else I have to do to it.

Shane

XR7 Dave
10-27-2004, 07:10 PM
A long runner intake is going to peak HP at about 5500rpm. Perhaps one of the new ones like the BBK will allow 6500rpm but most won't do it. The bottom end is fine for 6500rpm.Those Ford cams are not the best thing, and the heads are not even worth the money. Doing it on a budget I'd look at the complete Holley systemax system. It's relatively inexpensive and will make an easy 350rwhp. With the Ford stuff you probably won't break 300rwhp.

If you start with a donor Tbird V8 you will be able to bolt everything pretty much straight in. V6 motor mounts won't work at all. Really you should be making solid mounts for it anyway.

quick35th
10-27-2004, 07:38 PM
A long runner intake is going to peak HP at about 5500rpm. Perhaps one of the new ones like the BBK will allow 6500rpm but most won't do it. The bottom end is fine for 6500rpm.Those Ford cams are not the best thing, and the heads are not even worth the money. Doing it on a budget I'd look at the complete Holley systemax system. It's relatively inexpensive and will make an easy 350rwhp. With the Ford stuff you probably won't break 300rwhp.

If you start with a donor Tbird V8 you will be able to bolt everything pretty much straight in. V6 motor mounts won't work at all. Really you should be making solid mounts for it anyway.

What is different about the motor mounts Dave? I figured solid was the way to go, but wasn't sure how the two mounts where different. One problem I am going to run into is that I have no room for a V8 tbird parts car laying around. So I guess if you know of any that are close to me I could drive t pick the stuff up. Maybe you'll have a parts car I can pillage when the time is right.

The Trick Flow Track Heat upper and lower intake manifold is rated at 1,500 to 6,500 RPM and that is the intake I was thinking of using. What cam is going to be my best choise for this application?

This is how I want everything to come togather. I am planning on buying the car this december. Then I am going to set it aside so I can fix the things that are wrong with my current 35th. While I am fixing my 35th I will be buisy doing the stripping of the project 35th. Once everything is fixed on my current car thats when the transformation will start to take place.

Does this sound like a good plan?

Shane

Darkside
10-28-2004, 12:34 AM
Well, my eldest brother is building a 327(Ford) stroker for his 92 LX. He bought a regular ol' 302 block from Jegs and a stroker kit from D.S.S. Everything is balanced and blueprinted. He also chose the AFR 185 heads. I agree with Dave, I wouldn't buy those GT40 heads. Waste O' money. You should probably get a main support girdle since the 302's are only 2 bolt. 6,500 RPM's, no problem. I would go with the Edelbrock performer RPM intake. Nice. Some 30lb. SC injectors would work we were thinking. Anyway, with this combo you are at about 3 grand, approx.
Another option would be to get a 89-92 5.0 setup from a Mustang and turbocharge it. The 89 to 92's have forged internals so they can handle some boost. You could get a kit from HP. You could probably do that for less than 5 grand.

quick35th
10-29-2004, 01:23 PM
Does this sound like a good idea guys? I have been trying to think of what kind of foundation to start start my motor/race car project out right. Should I buy a new block for per say Jegs or any of the performace shops or should I find a motor out of a wrecked 87-95 mustang, tear it down and itstall the stroker kit in it?

Where should I buy the stroker kit at? I would like all forged internals. I have been looking a 3 kits lately. One is from ProPower. Its the Racing stroker kit and retails for $1299.00. It comes with a new forged 4340 steel nitrided crank, new forged 4340 steel H beem rods, new forged 2618 power adder pistons, high performance file-to-fit plasma moly rings, and king high performance rod and main bearing.

The other two kits both come from D.S.S. They are the Pro piston kit($939.95), and the Pro lite piston kit($1095.95). Both kits come with forged rods with ARP bolts, moly rings, metal main and rod bearings, stroker crank, and either pro pistons(forged) or pro lite pistons(forged). I would think that the crank is forged as well.

What kits sounds like the better one? I know that there are other kits out there, so if there is a better one(keep in mind this is under somewhat of a budget) out there please let me know.

I'll have more questions later.

Shane

Mike8675309
10-29-2004, 01:48 PM
When you say Autocross... what exactly do you mean? I think of Autocross as dodging cones in a parking lot at no more than 30 mph.

That engine swap will put you into a class with fully modified vehicles, that to be competitive in, you would need to do even more mods. The Tbird is a heavy car.

Or do you mean more like high speed oval or road courses?

David Neibert
10-29-2004, 02:28 PM
Shane,

Given your target power level I think you will be fine using a stock block. Most of the mustang turbo guys agree the stock block is good for about 500 HP.

If your interested I've got a good Thunderbird specific 5.0 HO motor sitting in my garage that's for sale for $200. It's from a 91 LX and has the correct, oil pan, timing cover, intake manifold and balancer for use in the MN12. It includes a stock TB, fuel rail and injectors. Also included is the stock MN12 radiator, fan and shroud.

I have removed the motor mounts, sensors, tubular exhaust manifolds and all the accesories for use on my turbo motor. This motor was in the car for about 6 months while the race engine was being built. It ran great and doesn't leak a drop of oil. It would make a good platform for building your stroker and will save you a bunch of money compared to buying all the parts to build the engine from scratch.

If you want it you have to pick it up in St. Louis, because it too much hassel to ship by motor freight.

David

PS: I will also supply the tubular exhaust manifolds after my turbo system is installed.

XR7 Dave
10-29-2004, 02:40 PM
Autocross is typically (but not always) limited to about 80mph or less depending on the venue. HP is not the biggest deal with AX, so personally I don't see any reason to ditch the V6 other than if you just don't like it. The Mansier Motorsports car keeps up with cars that have 100hp more all the time on the open road course. Down low the SC has way more torque than any small block V8 so in the AX situation it would be ideal. I dont' see the sense in putting a $5000-9000 motor in a car that you AX for fun. I mean seriously, I don't have that in my motor and it makes a reliable 345rwhp and 400ftlbs torque (without the AR). I absolutely gaurantee you that with a light chassis car there is no way hell you'll put that much power to the ground.

But hey, what do I know? :D

.

quick35th
10-29-2004, 02:47 PM
When you say Autocross... what exactly do you mean? I think of Autocross as dodging cones in a parking lot at no more than 30 mph.

That engine swap will put you into a class with fully modified vehicles, that to be competitive in, you would need to do even more mods. The Tbird is a heavy car.

Or do you mean more like high speed oval or road courses?

Autocross = dodging cones. That what I will be doing the most of. Autocross is much faster than 30MPH. I usually run up to 5000 RPM or just above that in 2nd gear.

I dont know if I mentioned it in my first post, but I am totally stripping this car to the max. A cage is going in, and I am going to remove as much metal as possible to reduce weight. Maybe lexan windows, fiberglass hood, you get the idea. There will be some track events with some local clubs that I will do with it, but it will be mostly used as an autocross car.

Shane

quick35th
10-29-2004, 05:40 PM
Shane,

Given your target power level I think you will be fine using a stock block. Most of the mustang turbo guys agree the stock block is good for about 500 HP.

If your interested I've got a good Thunderbird specific 5.0 HO motor sitting in my garage that's for sale for $200. It's from a 91 LX and has the correct, oil pan, timing cover, intake manifold and balancer for use in the MN12. It includes a stock TB, fuel rail and injectors. Also included is the stock MN12 radiator, fan and shroud.

I have removed the motor mounts, sensors, tubular exhaust manifolds and all the accesories for use on my turbo motor. This motor was in the car for about 6 months while the race engine was being built. It ran great and doesn't leak a drop of oil. It would make a good platform for building your stroker and will save you a bunch of money compared to buying all the parts to build the engine from scratch.

If you want it you have to pick it up in St. Louis, because it too much hassel to ship by motor freight.

David

PS: I will also supply the tubular exhaust manifolds after my turbo system is installed.

David,

I would like to take that motor off your hands. I am not sure when as of now I can come and get it. Maybe some time during christmas break or sometime just after. Could you hang on to it until then? It would be a great help and I would appreciative it very much.


Autocross is typically (but not always) limited to about 80mph or less depending on the venue. HP is not the biggest deal with AX, so personally I don't see any reason to ditch the V6 other than if you just don't like it. The Mansier Motorsports car keeps up with cars that have 100hp more all the time on the open road course. Down low the SC has way more torque than any small block V8 so in the AX situation it would be ideal. I dont' see the sense in putting a $5000-9000 motor in a car that you AX for fun. I mean seriously, I don't have that in my motor and it makes a reliable 345rwhp and 400ftlbs torque (without the AR). I absolutely gaurantee you that with a light chassis car there is no way hell you'll put that much power to the ground.

But hey, what do I know? :D

.

Dave,

I like the V6 dont get me wrong. I just want a nice V8 in a SC. I feel it will complete the car. Besides, I'll still be autocrossing my current 35th and its still V6 powerd. I am not going to spend $5000-9000 on the motor. I am shooting for under $4000 if i can. Its just that the V6 can be very expensive to build up compared to the V8.

Shane

David Neibert
10-29-2004, 05:54 PM
Could you hang on to it until then?

Yes...I will.

David

quick35th
10-29-2004, 06:26 PM
Yes...I will.

David

Sweet! Thanks David. I'll let you know when I can come and get it.

Shane

quick35th
10-29-2004, 08:54 PM
Some more questions.

One thing I am going to have on this car and my current 35th is a Mark VIII rear IRS. There are two things I want to know. One, what can I do about the spring fitment issue? Two, is there an advantage to using the MarK VIII rear axles? I have a set of axles out in Califoria and need to know soon before they get tossed in the trash.

What should I do about motor mounts? Would the mounts and brakets that come off the project car work or is there specific brackets and mounts that I will need?

Engine wiring/computer:

If I get a engine wiring harness form Summit made by Ford Racing for a 5.0 and a mustang computer to go with it will it work? Or should I get the wiring from a 5.0 Tbird? This may be a stupid question but I felt like asking.

More questions to come as time and with progress of this build up.

Shane

racecougar
10-29-2004, 09:05 PM
There was a GP over at tccoa a while back for custom made spring perches for the Mark 8 rear lower control arms. Someone is selling a pair right now over at tccoa: click here. (http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51620)

The spring perches that were made are high quality pieces, I have a pair myself.

-Rod

quick35th
10-29-2004, 09:57 PM
There was a GP over at tccoa a while back for custom made spring perches for the Mark 8 rear lower control arms. Someone is selling a pair right now over at tccoa: click here. (http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51620)

The spring perches that were made are high quality pieces, I have a pair myself.

-Rod

Yup saw both of those threads already. There maybe a guy that has beat me to those spring pearches already. Do you know if I can get them anywhere else or if they can be made again?

Shane

racecougar
10-30-2004, 05:39 PM
Any competent machine shop should be able to make them from the CAD drawings that Mike Tuck (IIRC) made up. I don't think there will be another GP going on for them.

-Rod

thebigslide
10-30-2004, 10:00 PM
I can confirm that the mounts from a fox or MN-12 chassis will work just fine. I'm using mounts originally from an 87 cougar in my car and they work well. You might want to consider aftermarket polyurethane mounts from energy suspension (just ask for the fox mustang ones) or rebuild your own like I did. 3M Window Weld is polyurethane in a tube. Just cut the rubber out, clean the metal with rubbing alchohol or scuff it up with a grinder to get the goop stuck on good and proper.

This is a good swap. I'd recommend some GT-40P heads. They make nice torque down low with higher compression pistons (9.0-10.0) on pump gas and still breath well enough to perform well btw 5400 and 6500RPM with a little massaging. If you really want aluminum heads, the late 90s explorer aluminum heads do well with porting, and they're relatively easy to come by. They can take a 1.94/1.6 valve combination with chevy valves for really good flow. You'll be limited to about .520" of lift unless you use offset locks and/or cut the seats down.

The trick flow intakes flow really nice and the quality is good also.

I'd use the wiring harness from a 5.0 T-Bird. Not sure if it's necessary, but they can be dressed up as nice and then there's be no worries about dash and instrumentation compatibilities. Cheaper, too :P

quick35th
10-31-2004, 02:38 AM
Well I have never heard of the fox bodied cars motor mounts working on mn12s before. Maybe there are some more people that can comferm this.

The GT40 heads are pretty much out of the picture. I think I am going to stick with the heads I originaly wanted; the Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads. I figure I'll find a nice set at a swap meet localy and possible have them ported and polished.

Out of the stroker kits that I listed above which is better guys? Is there another stroker kit that I should look into?

Shane

Darkside
10-31-2004, 10:54 AM
Well I have never heard of the fox bodied cars motor mounts working on mn12s before. Maybe there are some more people that can comferm this.

The GT40 heads are pretty much out of the picture. I think I am going to stick with the heads I originaly wanted; the Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads. I figure I'll find a nice set at a swap meet localy and possible have them ported and polished.

Out of the stroker kits that I listed above which is better guys? Is there another stroker kit that I should look into?

Shane
Well, I would recommend the D.S.S. stroker kit. It will probably just take a long time before you get it. You don't need to port the Trick Flow heads, just port the intake manifold to match the heads. That's what we ended up doing anyways. I can't help you with the engine mount issue as I've never done this swap.

quick35th
10-31-2004, 11:21 AM
Well, I would recommend the D.S.S. stroker kit. It will probably just take a long time before you get it. You don't need to port the Trick Flow heads, just port the intake manifold to match the heads. That's what we ended up doing anyways. I can't help you with the engine mount issue as I've never done this swap.

Should I go with the pro pistons, or the pro lite piston kit form D.S.S.?

Shane

quick35th
11-02-2004, 06:45 PM
Update:

I called S&W race cars today about getting a cage. They were very informative and help full. They offer an 8-point, and a 10-point cage custom fit and to SCCA spec. Which should I get? Prices are as fallows:

8-point cage is $349.90
10-point cage is $439.90

Also today, I called D.S.S. to talk to them about the two stroker kits and the differences between the pro and pro lite pistons packages. The pistons in the pro lite kit are like 60 grams lighter a peice. Then I told him about what I planned to do and if the 347 would be reliable. He said it would be but for my aplication the 331 would be a much better choice. So I am going to buy their 331 short block and go from there.

David, I still want your engine. I'll pm you about it later.

Dave, I will pm you later to inquire about having two M5R2 rebuilt.

Shane

quick35th
11-11-2004, 05:15 PM
Does anyone know if there is a difference in the bolts between the SC and Mark VIII's that hold the IRS knuckles togather?

Shane

Mike8675309
11-11-2004, 08:04 PM
PM Racecougar and see if he can comment. He was with you in a different thread about this and has done it himself.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46470&highlight=mark+viii+irs+bolt

racecougar
11-11-2004, 09:22 PM
Does anyone know if there is a difference in the bolts between the SC and Mark VIII's that hold the IRS knuckles togather?

Shane

The bolts that attach the lower control arm to the knuckle are different between the SC and Mark 8. I'm almost positive that you will have to use the Mark 8 bolts to install the Mark 8 lower control arms.

I didn't have this problem, because I swapped in a complete IRS assembly from a 94 Mark 8, then just changed the centersection.

-Rod

quick35th
11-11-2004, 10:49 PM
The bolts that attach the lower control arm to the knuckle are different between the SC and Mark 8. I'm almost positive that you will have to use the Mark 8 bolts to install the Mark 8 lower control arms.

I didn't have this problem, because I swapped in a complete IRS assembly from a 94 Mark 8, then just changed the centersection.

-Rod

racecougar, where can I buy those bolts at? I have the bolts for one side, but not the other.

Shane

racecougar
11-11-2004, 11:04 PM
Shane,

I'm not certain, but I would imagine that Ford should still have them available. I don't have any in stock at the moment, otherwise I'd sell you a set.

-Rod

quick35th
11-11-2004, 11:19 PM
Shane,

I'm not certain, but I would imagine that Ford should still have them available. I don't have any in stock at the moment, otherwise I'd sell you a set.

-Rod

Thanks Rod. Keep me in mind just incase you get some.

Shane

boostwhat
11-12-2004, 12:36 AM
Honestly I would try to find a non roller block for high rpm or poweradder combinations. I have broken 3 completley in half right down the middle in mustangs with forged internals and girdles. With only 250 worth of gas. Since then I have woken up and found a non roller block and havent had any problems in almost 3 yrs. I HIGHLY reccomend a non roller block.

quick35th
11-12-2004, 12:56 AM
Honestly I would try to find a non roller block for high rpm or poweradder combinations. I have broken 3 completley in half right down the middle in mustangs with forged internals and girdles. With only 250 worth of gas. Since then I have woken up and found a non roller block and havent had any problems in almost 3 yrs. I HIGHLY reccomend a non roller block.

Did you build the motor yourself or did you have a race shop build it? I am planning on having D.S.S build my short block. They rate it for 650HP and I am only going to be making 300-400HP with no power adder so I think I am good to go. D.S.S. does lots of machining to improve the strength of their short blocks.

Shane

90SC BIG BLOCK
11-24-2004, 01:11 AM
The one thing you'll have going for you is a v6 dos'nt have a light wieght block .The big block alum.block COMPLET is lighter then the sc v6.I plan on going open road racing too.Make shure you use V8 91-93 mounts ,lickege, radiator,use same trany and hook ups ,use brackets off of a Lincoln or a Crown Victoria for right A-C and alternator brackets for a 302 or 351 (the 351w uses the same trany and accs. brackets and motor mounts as the 302), which by the way is a 200 lbs alum. block for a 351W .Go to a good drive shaft shop like I did and replace all three shafts.Nobody warned me.With the right accs. ,keep the power stearing and ABS,you'll need them.Oh yea , rebuild the limited slip like I HAD too.

quick35th
11-24-2004, 02:16 AM
The one thing you'll have going for you is a v6 dos'nt have a light wieght block .The big block alum.block COMPLET is lighter then the sc v6.I plan on going open road racing too.Make shure you use V8 91-93 mounts ,lickege, radiator,use same trany and hook ups ,use brackets off of a Lincoln or a Crown Victoria for right A-C and alternator brackets for a 302 or 351 (the 351w uses the same trany and accs. brackets and motor mounts as the 302), which by the way is a 200 lbs alum. block for a 351W .Go to a good drive shaft shop like I did and replace all three shafts.Nobody warned me.With the right accs. ,keep the power stearing and ABS,you'll need them.Oh yea , rebuild the limited slip like I HAD too.

Well see I am not going to use a 460 and the 331ci short block I am going to use doesn't take advantage of an aluminum block. It is cast iron too like the V6. The tranny will be a M5R2 that I have spare laying in my garage. The radiator will be an aluminum one. I wont be able to use the stock one as I wont need the tranny cooler. No AC, I just want power steering, water pump (debating on going to an eletric water pump) and an alternator. I will use 99 Cobra half shafts as they bolt dirrectly in and I may get a different drive shaft. I dont think I will need it. Diff will be from a Mark VIII and an Auburn diff with 3.27s or 3.55s inside.

One thing that still needs sorted out is wiring. Summit offers kits for the motor and all sensors. I may go this route.

Also, how high of compression can I go and still run 93 octane pump gas?

Shane

quick35th
11-29-2004, 04:45 PM
Well yesterday I went to my Dad's house to talk to him about going to get the project car and about buying my step mom's truck so I can have a tow rig. The first thing he says to me is the that his 99 GMC Yukon that we were going to use to tow the car back home blow its second tranny. Thats on top of the transfer case it blow last year and the water pump so they are getting rid of it and prolly not going to fix it. Now I cant get the car. So this sucks. Oh well, I guess its better off this way because my life is changing every second. I am going to school full time and working full time. My 20th birthday is coming up on December 20th. My Mom has lost her mind and I think I maybe be in the market for a brand new house! So lots of things have been happening. I just think that it would be 10X easyer to just deal with one SC for now. That way I can focus on the things I need to and make my SC better than ever. I still am planing on doing the V8 powerd SC racer sometime in the near future prolly after college is up. It will be much more fun that way and I wont be draining myself out of money.

Dave I need to get ahold of you so that we can talk about rebuilding one of my trannys and I want to find out some info about those SCTs. I may be interested in purchasing a SCT.

Thanks guys for all the help! I have some sweet plans for the my 35th and will keep this thread alive. I wanna try to get one of those Eaton M112s that Spinningwheels SC (Victor) is building and put it on my car along with lots of suspenssion goodies.

Shane

quick35th
12-13-2004, 09:21 PM
UPDATE:

Well yesturday I started work on project Blackbird. I yanked the back seat, carpeting in the trunk, the interior quarter pannels, both rear speakers, some of the sound deadening, center consol, third brake light, carpeting by the third brake light, seat belts, and seat belt trim. I plan to do more maybe tonight and later on this week. I want to get some pics of it soon to post my progress.

Parts that I have so far but not installed:

Mark8 aluminum driveshaft- still needs cut
Mark8 aluminum arms
Mark8 aluminum diff
3.27 gears
tbird88 polly diff mount
Flaming river billet steering u-joint

Do I need to or should I get a 5.0 donor car for this project? If I need to get one does anyone know where there is one cheap and close to Ohio? I know of one in South Carolina but I think that is alittle to far.

Shane

quick35th
12-14-2004, 04:33 AM
Heres some pics of my progress:

Shane

quick35th
12-14-2004, 04:35 AM
And a few more. More pics to come soon as I progress foward.

Shane

quick35th
12-29-2004, 03:31 AM
Heres some more update pics. I have not got much time to work on it and it is freezing outside so here ya go.

Shane

David Neibert
12-29-2004, 10:35 AM
Shane,

Please remind me one more time why you are gutting your car. It's starting to look like Mike Puckett's drag car.

David

quick35th
12-29-2004, 03:36 PM
David,

The reason why I am gutting my 35th is becuase I am turning it into a racecar. I am building it with autocross and road course racing in mind. I want to be in the SCCA Valvoline Runoffs with the car someday. Thats why I am gutting it.

Shane

Chrome_Rust
12-29-2004, 09:10 PM
Looks good bro, keep it comming, and as a fellow ohioan, if you need a hand spinning a few wrenches and banging a few knuckles, feel free to call......


charlie

quick35th
12-29-2004, 09:55 PM
Charlie hey I'll let you know if I need any help. It would be cool to have another SCer helping out. Where at is Findlay in Ohio anyways? I could prolly use your help with welding since I dont have one or know how to use one. That and seems like you just got a new one so it may need breaking in on my car!

Shane

Chrome_Rust
12-30-2004, 08:59 AM
Take I-75 north, cant miss it. it's about 1 hour south of Toledo...