engine build up

[scfix92]

What are some things I can have done to build up my engine I have 92 sc I am wanting to harden everything up and get more horsepower I want to have my block bored, o ringed and the heads o ringed and ported and polished what about cam I want the car to be the fastest out there I will also go so far to put 100 shot of nitrous on it or more. I just want the engine to handle everything. also is there a way to destroke the engine so it will rev higher. I am also haveing all of my hard parts heat treated and cryoed so the forged parts will be about 40% stronger too. When cryoed the metal wont build up as much heat

[David Neibert]

What are some things I can have done to build up my engine I have 92 sc I am wanting to harden everything up and get more horsepower I want to have my block bored, o ringed and the heads o ringed and ported and polished what about cam I want the car to be the fastest out there I will also go so far to put 100 shot of nitrous on it or more. I just want the engine to handle everything. also is there a way to destroke the engine so it will rev higher. I am also haveing all of my hard parts heat treated and cryoed so the forged parts will be about 40% stronger too. When cryoed the metal wont build up as much heat



You don't need to harden anything, you don't need to oring the heads or block and destroking won't help it to rev higher.

The engine already has a forged crank, you can upgrade to stronger rods and pistons but the stockers will handle 400 rwhp. Along with a set of head studs and a freshly decked block and heads, a pair of late model 4.2 liter MLS gaskets will hold all the boost you care to give it. The valve train is what keeps the engine from revving higher...but with a supercharger you don't have to rev it past 6000 rpms to make big power.

David

[aplvlydrtybird]

What are some things I can have done to build up my engine I have 92 sc I am wanting to harden everything up and get more horsepower I want to have my block bored, o ringed and the heads o ringed and ported and polished what about cam I want the car to be the fastest out there I will also go so far to put 100 shot of nitrous on it or more. I just want the engine to handle everything. also is there a way to destroke the engine so it will rev higher. I am also haveing all of my hard parts heat treated and cryoed so the forged parts will be about 40% stronger too. When cryoed the metal wont build up as much heat


well you are going to look at forged pistons if you are running nitrous, check out the steig cam and head package or coy millers too, i got a cam of his and i like it, its a stage one but the stage two is pretty stout, but either way with a bigger cam like that (.576" lift) you will need double valve springs, bigger valves, guide plates, chrome-moly pushrods, and roller rockers etc. there will be machining involved in that process too, so you are going to spending a few dollars, especially for the pistons, they will run ya around 500- - 600 dollars. You can get a different rod to change the stroke, but whenever you add nitrous to a forced inducted car, its like putting double in there, soo a 100 shot would be like using a 200 shot. take a look at what dave neibert has, he is running nitrous, and seems to know what hes doing, or go to moranas site, they have forged pistons for sale there, i guess its been a while since i did my engine, but just try a search on the boards, adn im sure someone else will reply. good luck

[scfix92]

look I want over 500 horse power so hardening will need to be done

[David Neibert]

look I want over 500 horse power so hardening will need to be done

Will not.

David

[XR7 Dave]

look I want over 500 horse power so hardening will need to be done

What you really need is to figure out a way to keep the cylinder heads down. That is the biggest problem.

[tim]

Some advice. Listen to the guys on this boad that are running fast. David is one of them. Certain things you do to these cars work really good and other dont. 500 hp. is quite a goal even with nitrous. Do it wrong and you will blow the engine to little pieces. I know from experiance. The fastest car at the shootout was 10,85 and he may have made 500 hp. If you want to get serious with a S.C. you better have deep pockets. As far as being the fastest the bar is being raised all the time. Somebody right now is working on being the fastest. I dont know who but this is a pretty serious group of guys. I remember when 12 seconds seemed like the limit. then it was 11 now its 10 my guess is that a fastest car would cost $50,000 to build.

[David Neibert]

Tim,

If you accept that an AOD has 20% drivetrain loss and a 9.5 non locking converter adds another 5% of loss, then with 450 rwhp (100 shot nitrous) my car is making around 600 HP at the crank.

I suspect Coy's was making about 500 rwhp when he ran the 10.8 in Norwalk, which would be 666 HP using the same drivetrain losses.

David

[scfix92]

Damn thats harsh I was thinking like 20- 30,000. Maybe I will check into a 351 or a 4.6 dohc supercharged instead it seems like that would be cheaper. Look I honestly will have around 12,000 to put on my car by tax season so that is what I am starting with. I wanted to cryo everything cause I can get a good deal on it I already have a set of pistons, rods and a crank but I am willing to listen to you guys so tell me a great way to start cause stock my car kills everything except a cobra, ls1's slightly modified and rx7s with a turbo. I need to stomp these cars. I have a good friend who owns a performance shop and a good friend who can cryo stuff too. so please tell me what I should do. to my car

[XR7 Dave]

There are many ways to approach the project. If all you want is raw speed, there is no replacement for cubic inches and a bigger motor will be faster and more reliable.

If on the other hand you prefer to be different and set reasonable goals, then the V6 can be rewarding. Internet racing and throwing numbers around is easy and pointless, although very popular these days.

That being said, the key to making HP in these motors lies in moving a lot of air through the motor while not lifting the heads. Regardless of what you do to the motor, the heads are not well clamped down and have a thin and narrow deck margin. This means that regardless of what you do to it, you can't keep the heads sealed under extreme pressures. You have to accept that reality and find ways around the problem. MLS gaskets, copper, SS o-rings and bigger head studs have all been tried and all have failed to totally seal the motor under extreme conditions. Consider this when thinking about large amounts of nitrous.

I would consider that about 500rwtq reflects the maximum cylinder pressure that you can reliably make with this motor. That being said, it is simply a matter of math to calulate the rpm needed to convert that into your target HP level.

You will find that the motor will not generate that kind of torque at the rpms needed to reach your HP goals. You will run into road blocks in this order: cylinder head flow, blower capacity, intake manifold/IC capacity, and only after you have cleared those obstacles will you have possible problems with the rotating assembly.

So, instead of talking HP numbers, develop a plan to deal with those obstacles first. :)

[David Neibert]

You will find that the motor will not generate that kind of torque at the rpms needed to reach your HP goals. You will run into road blocks in this order: cylinder head flow, blower capacity, intake manifold/IC capacity, and only after you have cleared those obstacles will you have possible problems with the rotating assembly.
So, instead of talking HP numbers, develop a plan to deal with those obstacles first.

Dave,

Nearly all of those obstacles can be addressed by picking up the phone and ordering the correct parts. When properly installed, I haven't seen the MLS gaskets fail except when allowing the engine to run lean enough to melt the plugs and part of the combustion chamber. I believe that was the case with Chris Wise and Gary Kuhn.

I can see where the AR or Whipple may provide more boost than the heads can handle, or how using too much nitrous could do it. But I honestly don't think there is a problem at the 500 HP level.

Why not talk about HP or ET goals ? So long as they are reasonable, I think it's the best starting point to properly size components and plan the project.

David

[birdofprey]

Quick question where can I look at the Steig cam and heads. Website?

[David Neibert]

Quick question where can I look at the Steig cam and heads. Website?


http://www.apten-us.com/scheads/38heads.html

You can order from Apten or call Bob Stiegemeier directly at 636-949-2275.

David

[XR7 Dave]

Dave,

Nearly all of those obstacles can be addressed by picking up the phone and ordering the correct parts. When properly installed, I haven't seen the MLS gaskets fail except when allowing the engine to run lean enough to melt the plugs and part of the combustion chamber. I believe that was the case with Chris Wise and Gary Kuhn.

I can see where the AR or Whipple may provide more boost than the heads can handle, or how using too much nitrous could do it. But I honestly don't think there is a problem at the 500 HP level.

Why not talk about HP or ET goals ? So long as they are reasonable, I think it's the best starting point to properly size components and plan the project.

David

Actually David, the underlying reason why Gary sold his motor was that the gaskets continued to leak even after the motot being properly tuned, heads resurfaced, 1/2" head studs, SS O-rings, and super fine deck finish on the block. The gaskets did not blow out, but they continued to leak and pressurize the cooling system when he tried to run 24psi. This has lead me to concurr with Coy Miller's assessment that the heads are distorting and ultimately that is the limit of how much cylinder pressure the motor will safely handle. I personally believe that you are right on the ragged edge with yours. :)

Regarding cylinder head flow, I did not mean that solutions do not exist, I merely suggested that this obstacle be addressed first. Simply taking the heads to a performance shop and getting them ported is not going to resolve that issue. There is also the issue of camshaft design. Since headflow, camshaft design, and intended rpm range all go hand in hand, this is why I feel that these things must be addressed first. Once you have nailed this combination, it only remains to match the rest of the components to it.

If 500rwhp is truely the goal, then airflow in excess of what the stock supercharger/IC/intake system can handle will be required. Development in these areas is still in it's infancy and there are no tried and true formulas here. I feel that rotating components are really the last of your worries on the path to 500rwhp.

Although for rpms above 6000 I highly recommend larger main studs and a girdle.

David

[David Neibert]

Actually David, the underlying reason why Gary sold his motor was that the gaskets continued to leak even after the motot being properly tuned, heads resurfaced, 1/2" head studs, SS O-rings, and super fine deck finish on the block. The gaskets did not blow out, but they continued to leak and pressurize the cooling system when he tried to run 24psi. This has lead me to concurr with Coy Miller's assessment that the heads are distorting and ultimately that is the limit of how much cylinder pressure the motor will safely handle. I personally believe that you are right on the ragged edge with yours. :)

Regarding cylinder head flow, I did not mean that solutions do not exist, I merely suggested that this obstacle be addressed first. Simply taking the heads to a performance shop and getting them ported is not going to resolve that issue. There is also the issue of camshaft design. Since headflow, camshaft design, and intended rpm range all go hand in hand, this is why I feel that these things must be addressed first. Once you have nailed this combination, it only remains to match the rest of the components to it.

If 500rwhp is truely the goal, then airflow in excess of what the stock supercharger/IC/intake system can handle will be required. Development in these areas is still in it's infancy and there are no tried and true formulas here. I feel that rotating components are really the last of your worries on the path to 500rwhp.

Although for rpms above 6000 I highly recommend larger main studs and a girdle.

David

Dave,

Thanks for clarifying the gasket thing. Your probably right about mine being on the ragged edge when spraying nitrous. That's why I didn't race it again yesterday, which was the last day of the season.

If I had raced, I was going to add a little more boost and increase the nitrous to 125 hp and cross my fingers and toes that nothing would break. After thinking about it....I decided to leave my car in the garage and just watch Kurt K. race.

BTW, when talking about resonable HP goals, I was refering to 500 HP at the flywheel, not at the wheels.

David

[kuhnga]

Damn thats harsh I was thinking like 20- 30,000. Maybe I will check into a 351 or a 4.6 dohc supercharged instead it seems like that would be cheaper. Look I honestly will have around 12,000 to put on my car by tax season so that is what I am starting with. I wanted to cryo everything cause I can get a good deal on it I already have a set of pistons, rods and a crank but I am willing to listen to you guys so tell me a great way to start cause stock my car kills everything except a cobra, ls1's slightly modified and rx7s with a turbo. I need to stomp these cars. I have a good friend who owns a performance shop and a good friend who can cryo stuff too. so please tell me what I should do. to my car

Go with a v8. For $12k you can start with a stock 302, add a nice blower(intercooler centifugal), C4, even a little nitrous. Take a little weight out and you can easily rul low 11's. Get all the bugs out and then build a nice V8 to replace that old stock one.

[sail7seas]

>This has lead me to concurr with Coy Miller's assessment that the heads are distorting and ultimately that is the limit of how much cylinder pressure the motor will safely handle. I personally believe that you are right on the ragged edge with yours.<

I recall in the 70's the GT-40 had a similar problem, they ended up welding the head to the block. I don't recall if the SC's block is out of aluminum?

[Superloop]

So, how much hp at the flywheel would it take to make 400 rwhp on an 89 5 speed? You guys are talking about building the motor with the right parts, so tell me what do I need to build my 89 5 speed to make 400 rwhp, heck I'll setlle for 350rwhp. I don't want a f#%3N beast, just something that can perform good in the streets. I don't wanna bulid something that breaks everytime I use it. What's the highest hp and tq that I should try to make, if I want an SC that will last and still have some fun with it.
Superloop :cool:

[Cat Girl]

Oops. wrong thread. :o

[scfix92]

I appreciate everything you guys have said honestly I was a little gunho but I am just going to fix my 2 sc's up and make them really nice looking and clean put some bolt ons on it of coursre do the head work but that is it I will have a decently fast car but I think I may buy a shell one day or even a 5.0 or 4.6 and set the car up but now I know if I want a beast of a car that I need to go with a big block or at least a 5.0 cause of the multitude of parts and in the long run it may be cheaper, and less stress on such a fine car like our SC' s. Thank you again guys.

[David Neibert]

So, how much hp at the flywheel would it take to make 400 rwhp on an 89 5 speed?

Using 15% drivetrain loss 400 rwhp would be 470 HP at the flywheel.


but now I know if I want a beast of a car that I need to go with a big block or at least a 5.0 cause of the multitude of parts and in the long run it may be cheaper, and less stress on such a fine car like our SC' s.

That's what I'm doing with my 93 SC.

David

[scfix92]

Using 15% drivetrain loss 400 rwhp would be 470 HP at the flywheel.




That's what I'm doing with my 93 SC.

David
thankyou again David you just saved me alot of money to learn the same thing ya'll know