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coolhand
11-18-2004, 01:34 AM
OK, I know you guys are not all that familiar with the 4.6, but I also know you have a wealth of knowledge between you. Does anyone have any good ideas about replacing the stock intake manifold and intake for something with a bit more capability, that is ability to breath better and produce more HP? I keep hearing about PI intakes?????????????
Thanks

SeanMatteson
11-18-2004, 10:04 AM
I think you need to swap in the PI heads in order to use the upper and lower intake manifold. Andrew V. recently did this. He should have plenty of input on how to make it happen, or even whether or not you want to do this.

Cheers,

Sean

Superbird281
11-18-2004, 10:17 AM
allenrunners.jpg:
Attachment in Progress. Can be deleted here.

coolhand
11-18-2004, 10:37 AM
I think you need to swap in the PI heads in order to use the upper and lower intake manifold. Andrew V. recently did this. He should have plenty of input on how to make it happen, or even whether or not you want to do this.

Cheers,

Sean

Can I swap the intake from this to mine????

fast Ed
11-18-2004, 10:46 AM
Matt, there are adapters available now to use the P.I. intake on the non-P.I. heads, for the 96 - 98 cars.

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=457

It's more work on the 94 - 95 cars because of the difference in throttle body mounting ... Andrew V. likely can explain what's required.


cheers,
Ed N.

coolhand
11-18-2004, 10:48 AM
Matt, there are adapters available now to use the P.I. intake on the non-P.I. heads, for the 96 - 98 cars.

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=457

It's more work on the 94 - 95 cars because of the difference in throttle body mounting ... Andrew V. likely can explain what's required.


cheers,
Ed N.

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

coolhand
11-18-2004, 10:55 AM
Matt, there are adapters available now to use the P.I. intake on the non-P.I. heads, for the 96 - 98 cars.

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=457

It's more work on the 94 - 95 cars because of the difference in throttle body mounting ... Andrew V. likely can explain what's required.


cheers,
Ed N.

Think Andrew V has probs of his own, as much of it as I can understand. I am get lost with all the bloody short forms everyone uses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fat_stan
11-18-2004, 12:49 PM
it's more work and frustration to do this on a 94-95 than it is on a 96-97. on 96-97 there's a few guys on tccoa and modulardepot that are simply slapping on the pi intake onto their stock heads and still notice a +10 hp improvement. what they do is use an epoxy on the intake to port match it to the heads. they basically contour the epoxy that they placed into the intake ports (where they mate with the heads) to the intake ports in the heads. there's even a guys on modulardepot that makes gaskets that will match the coolant holes for the intake and heads.

the way i see it is if your going to spend all that time doing all this work you might as well do it properly and get a set of pi heads along with the intake.

here's a few link that will provide you with some info:
link 1 (http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?threadid=50545&highlight=95+pic+swap)
link 2 (http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?threadid=38339&highlight=95+pic+swap)
search the tccoa and modulardepot boards and you'll know what your in for, there's plenty of guys that have done it there, but it's harder on a 94-95.

lazybird4pt6
11-18-2004, 07:00 PM
^^^ What he said. Oh, and don't bother with the adaptor plates. Too much money for something that isn't really required. If you just want to do the intake then you shouldn't have too much of an issue. You'll also need fuel lines!

You can buy assembled PI heads for about $580 each new, a PI intake for less than $300, but you'll also need to worry about the wiring harness. There are a lot of "support items" like the throttle body adaptor (aka "upper plenum") and air intake tube, the correct throttle body linkage and cruise control line, and other things like the EGR, that could make this costly to do with your original block.

The "support" for the '94/95 cars is really limited due to changes made in '96. The blocks have minor differences. The intake, well, you already know about that. Even the heads for '94/95 are different. You couldn't even put PI cams on them. It's too much lift.

I'd STRONGLY recommend you look for a '96-98 engine complete..... and a new PCM (computer). Yeah, don't forget, you're not OBDII and you'll "need" it for the new mill. All this for about, what, 15HP? It's just not worth the effort unless you were to find a '99+ motor, again complete with PCM, and you would start with that.

I think you'll need to think about this one long and hard, Matt. Take the winter to figure it out. You DO have plenty of options, but the whole "needs versus wants and can have" will be the biggest factor. This basically means money.

Might I suggest N2O or a blower?

mn12bird
11-20-2004, 10:42 AM
or buy 96 heads and the allen engineering supercharger kit for 96-97 Tbirds! It adds 100 hp at the rear wheels!!!! BTW 96-97 heads are different, but still not PI... no Tbird has PI heads. I'm sure you could get a set of 96/97 heads used off a Tbird for like a few hundred bucks or so... then you can get that allen kit for like 4500 or something.... holly crap... thats like 5k... screw that! Buy a DOHC lincoln engine from a scrap yard for half that!

Jake

coolhand
11-20-2004, 06:53 PM
I was just exploring the options, and as you know, the more I can learn, the better off I will be. The guys at the TCCOA were very helpful as well. Your right, I do have the entire winter. I want to get the exhaust done, which was supposed to be done last week, the UD Pulleys,Get her lowered, put the SC seats in her, Fabricate a proper cold Air intake, Get the Brakes for her from ED. I wold love to have her ready for Carlisle this year!!!!!!!
And I want to lower my ET big time, without compromising the integrity of the motor. Perhaps a chip is a good solution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Changing the intake and the heads sounds like a daunting challenge. Gonna be hard to do with my knife and fork.
BTW, Bev was asking if we are gonna have a Christmas get together??????

BlueThunder90
11-20-2004, 09:57 PM
Matt, Tom Morana has a friend selling a Lincoln 4.6 4v motor for around $1000. I beleive it's from a 98. When I called him about my motor build up, he told me he had a friend with this motor and got back to me a few days later with a price.

Might be a nice drop in modification :)

IVIercuryIVIan
11-21-2004, 12:15 AM
Matt, Tom Morana has a friend selling a Lincoln 4.6 4v motor for around $1000. I beleive it's from a 98. When I called him about my motor build up, he told me he had a friend with this motor and got back to me a few days later with a price.

Might be a nice drop in modification :)

Is the Mark VIII 4.6 a drop and go install. (tranny and wiring issues?)

How much more HP and torque does it have than a 95 4.6?

lazybird4pt6
11-21-2004, 12:27 AM
Tranny and wiring issues? Yeah, somewhat. You'd need the correct computer for the engine and tranny. Really, a 4V in an MN-12 isn't worth it unless it's a prepped race-piece, or some reasonable facsimilie. Think about it. The 4V needs the revs at the top end. The heavy MN-12 chassis needs something with some bottom end to haul it's a$$ from a stand still. Doable, and worth it IF it's built (the drivetrain too!) the right way. Remember, with a heavy car you really need to concentrate on the mid-range torque more than the top end. Think "under the curve". ;)

As much as I hate to say it... look at Super Coupes. :eek: :rolleyes: ;) :D

coolhand
11-21-2004, 07:04 AM
I spent 3 weeks swappng a motor with my partner, doing what we thought would be a straightforward job, which turned into a logistical nightmare. Not sure i need to go that route agian.As well, I am loathe to take the 4.6 from this car. With just 140K, it seems such a waste!!!!! I would like to do as much to it as possible, within the limitations of this motor. Barring a SuperCharger, I am sure there is only so far i can go, but I am sure it will be fun trying to get there. I would like to explore some options re handling with her as well. Would be cool to take her around Mosport sometime.

mn12bird
11-21-2004, 10:52 PM
dude, a Lincoln Mark8 IS an MN12 chasis (with a different name) and weighs more than a TBird... you think its slower off the line because its 4V? An LSC can do 0-60 in 7 seconds flat... thats like 1.6 seconds faster than a 2V Tbird! Don't forget they do have a higher stall tourqe converter. I meanm they put that engine in a Crown Vic to make it haul more arse!

I just read a post from a guy on TCCoA who just did the swap and he said it's easy as pie. He even used the stock harness and computer (with a custom chip) rather than using the stock 4V computer witch would req u to use the harness too... that alone makes it much easier. Other than that, it IS a 4.6 and will bolt right up the the tranny and anything else.

I say 4V swap... It makes 290hp in Mark8 form and well over 300 from a Cobra and I'm willing to bet they make more low end than a 2V anyday. I mean I don't have any spec infront of me but I can tell you my Tbird drives like it has NO power below 3K anyway!

Just my 2 cents. Considering its an easy swap (if you know how to do it AKA goto TCCoA and get all the latest info from others who have just done it) and you can get a 98 engine for 1K off some guy in here... you can't go wrong!

Jake

lazybird4pt6
11-21-2004, 11:08 PM
Okay.

What does a stock 4.6 Bird do the 0-60 in?

No, Crown Vics don't have a 4V. Never have. And now, thanks to Ford discontinuing them, never will. The Marauder, on the other hand, does. You think it's super-fast? Better than a 2V, yes, but not "worth it" (read on to understand WHY).

EEC-IV and EEC-V are two different worlds. Yes, you can use a chip to tune around that, but then there's more cost.

I don't think that Matt wants to spend THAT kind of money and THAT kind of time wrenching on his car. He's only got "so many Red Bricks" (sorry, inside joke between Matt and myself).

Don't get me wrong! I'm NOT saying that the 4V sucks or that it's not a great engine. It IS a great offering from Ford and a very viable solution...... just not for Matt. It's one thing to put ideas in someone's head as to what they should or shouldn't do. It's another thing to understand WHO they are, what they have and what they want. Honestly, Matt would be better off buying 2V PI stuff and putting it in his car. Just my two cents.

BlueThunder90
11-21-2004, 11:48 PM
Okay.

What does a stock 4.6 Bird do the 0-60 in?

No, Crown Vics don't have a 4V. Never have. And now, thanks to Ford discontinuing them, never will. The Marauder, on the other hand, does. You think it's super-fast? Better than a 2V, yes, but not "worth it" (read on to understand WHY).

EEC-IV and EEC-V are two different worlds. Yes, you can use a chip to tune around that, but then there's more cost.

I don't think that Matt wants to spend THAT kind of money and THAT kind of time wrenching on his car. He's only got "so many Red Bricks" (sorry, inside joke between Matt and myself).

Don't get me wrong! I'm NOT saying that the 4V sucks or that it's not a great engine. It IS a great offering from Ford and a very viable solution...... just not for Matt. It's one thing to put ideas in someone's head as to what they should or shouldn't do. It's another thing to understand WHO they are, what they have and what they want. Honestly, Matt would be better off buying 2V PI stuff and putting it in his car. Just my two cents.

A PI swap isn't cheap and just might exceed the cost of this drop in motor and will be a ton of wrench time involved as well. A good set of used PI heads will run you about $450US along with everything else you need, intake, etc which will probably bring the cost up to close to $1000 and for not so super gains.

For around $1000 a complete 4v motor complete with computer. Damn good deal.

coolhand
11-22-2004, 09:14 AM
The pile of RED BRICKS hasnt been diminished much this year, but its not unlimited. If I had the cash, I would, in the long run, like to send her off to someone and have the biggest and baddest Ford Crate motor put in her. But this isn't possible at this time. Doing all the little things to enhance her capabilities, her looks and the overall sense that she is still a T_BIRD at heart makes more sense to me. A PI INTAKE sounds like a hell of a lot of work, time and BRICKS!!!!!!!!! I rely heavily on you guys and I love the interaction that takes place. I learn more from the opinion differences than from anywhere.
COOLHAND WANTS: Gears, POSI, Proper Cold Air Intake, EXHAUST, Lowering, UD Pulleys(on the way if we can meet :) ), Leather Seating(S?C OR LX), Brake upgrade, and a HUGE Mother of a STEREO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lazybird4pt6
11-22-2004, 07:40 PM
Chip. I don't see a chip anywhere in any of your posts. Everyone should see a chip in your post. I don't see it. Doesn't anyone else see it? Hmmmm. :confused:

Seriously. A chip will go a long way towards getting "there", no matter where it is (unless "there" is a carb'd crate engine). You can use it now, with a stock car. You can use it as you upgrade, with certain purchases. You can use it down the road if you go with another (EFI) engine. You can use it if you keep your engine and put a power adder of some sort on it (blower, turbo, N2O). I think you should do a little research on this before you "spend" anymore of your Red Bricks. ;) I'd be foolish not to point out Cam as a great example of this. His car doesn't have a ton of stuff on it and trust me, it pulls pretty good.... for a non-PI car.:eek: :p ;) :D

BTW - I just used enough Red Bricks to build a garage. :D Don't ask. :rolleyes:

coolhand
11-22-2004, 08:02 PM
OK........Grovels at the foot of the master.
I had just worked a 12 hr night shift and my brain was functioning on coffee and cigs. I missed the chip, but it is on the list posted here in my Computer room. And so is the Supercharger, but I didnt mention that either. Maybe I should think about getting a chip. A chip seems to be the way to go. Might make me a chip off the old block, and get the chip off my shoulder. It might just chip away at my ET.
"GOT THE POINT"

mn12bird
11-22-2004, 08:50 PM
yep, I understand your POV... I come from the same place! I don't have much money and my car is my DD so engine swaps are out of the question! If you want to keep your engine and make it faster than a chip is a definate. I say Chip, MAF, 3.73s and mabie a Mach1 / Maurauder TC. All that will make a nice seat of the pants difference and you can let her loose off the line easy! A chip is a great idea as it will make more power mainly due to better timing but it will also improve the tranny! As our 4r70ws are computer controlled the chip can make the shifts a bit faster too!!

I would hit up the chip/MAF first and then gears second. Thats what I would do if I had the money seing as I can't swap engines or do anything major either.

Also, I know a CV never had a 4V engine... I was refuring to the Marauder but since I can never spell that I just said CV seeing its the same car.

Jake

coolhand
11-22-2004, 10:31 PM
yep, I understand your POV... I come from the same place! I don't have much money and my car is my DD so engine swaps are out of the question! If you want to keep your engine and make it faster than a chip is a definate. I say Chip, MAF, 3.73s and mabie a Mach1 / Maurauder TC. All that will make a nice seat of the pants difference and you can let her loose off the line easy! A chip is a great idea as it will make more power mainly due to better timing but it will also improve the tranny! As our 4r70ws are computer controlled the chip can make the shifts a bit faster too!!

I would hit up the chip/MAF first and then gears second. Thats what I would do if I had the money seing as I can't swap engines or do anything major either.

Also, I know a CV never had a 4V engine... I was refuring to the Marauder but since I can never spell that I just said CV seeing its the same car.

Jake
I have noticed a nice difference since I had the tranny redone and the shift kit installed. Kicks *** on the shifts now. A nice set of gears will do her nicely.
The Chip is a must. I am researching them now on the TCCOA and the Auto Forum. Its a minefield of info out there.

mn12bird
11-22-2004, 11:28 PM
yeah tell me how it goes! Mabie you will give me some ideas in the right direction as far as the types and prices of chips go.

Jake

lazybird4pt6
11-22-2004, 11:51 PM
Ahem (http://www.sctflash.com/main.php)

lazybird4pt6
11-23-2004, 12:08 AM
BTW - I saw you...... medic. ;) Shhhh.

coolhand
11-23-2004, 01:20 AM
BTW - I saw you...... medic. ;) Shhhh.
Yeah.Was reading your posts...........invisibly!!!!!

coolhand
11-23-2004, 01:34 AM
BTW - I saw you...... medic. ;) Shhhh.
http://www.blueovalchips.com/

lazybird4pt6
11-23-2004, 10:36 PM
If i'm not mistaken (happens often!) I believe that's who Cam started with.

Speaking of Cam - dude! ~~~?!?! Busy workin' or something?

There, that otta ruffle his feathers. ;)

S'all good, Matt.