Total seal gapless ring users: gap clearances??

CaifanSC

SCCoA Member
Im starting re-assembly and im a bit stumped with the gap clearances. This is my first rebuild so im a bit fearful and inexperienced with this thing. First question is...do you still have to measure the gap of the rings even though they are 'gapless'? I measured the gaps on the first and second rings of cylinder/piston #4 and i got .025 for top and .0315 for the second. I looked on the hayes manual and the clearances are of aprox. .011-.012...but i guess those are for regular rings and not the gapless. Here's the basic background info on the block:

block bored .020 over
.020 over Sealed Power pistons
total seal gapless rings.

Hope you guys can help me out. Thanx!
 
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Well, this comes from my engine blueprinting book regarding supercharged engines and using iron rings.

So it probably won't apply to you. From my understanding, you want to set the gap, so that at opperating temp., the rings will just barely not touch. otherwise, if they bind up, bye bye rings. The only sure fire way would be to keep re-building the engine over and over again, constantly lessening the gap. Then, when the rings fail, or you see sign of touching, then you know that the correct ring gap was the previous size you tried. oh well, life sucks.

Speed-Pro recommends, for supercharged engines...
Top Ring End Gap (Ductile iron) = 0.006 per inch of bore diameter
Second Ring End Gap (Cast iron) = 0.005 per inch of bore diameter

Hopefully, your ring manufacturer included some guidelines.
 
Just contact the ring manufacturer. They'll give you the recommendations. I think it used to be on their website but it's been revised and I couldn't find that info anymore.
 
Thanx for the replies fellows. I thought many more people had used these rings. I guess i can try calling the manufacturer tomorrow and see what they say. I just hope this doesnt turn into one of those 'wrong rings in the box' case that will prolongue my rebuild time.
 
They sell a few different models and some are not a true gapless ring. Either way, I don't remember what the specs are. Call their tech line, I did when I got mine.
 
Did'nt they put the instructions in the box? :confused: Anyhoo here they are, :) I'd scan the candy they sent me also......but I ate it. :p :D
 

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Note the comment on the yellow sheet in Mike's post. If you are using stock SC pistons you need to follow the piston manufacturers recommendations for ring gap.

The stock pistons are not forged thus they don't expand as much as forged pistons do.
 
I did get those papers with the rings...but i couldnt make anything of them...until now at least. I browsed the forums for the stock bore size and here's the measurements i came with:
stock cylinder bore=3.811 (6.8mm)
i have 20 over so 3.811 + .020 = 3.831 and according to the little blue sheets
the gap should = 3.831 x .0045= .0172..which is still way less than what i have. But then again, thast not taking into consideration what Mike8675309 said about the stock pistons. Although im not using my original pistons, they are overzised stock replacements from Sealed Power so they are not forged and hence you are supposed to use the gap recomended by the manufacturer....and taht would be the .011-.012. AFter all this measurements...i still dont know if im SUPPOSED TO even consider the gap...or if this gap is neglected b/c they are 'gapless' rings. What did u do with urs Mike38sc? Regardless, I think im going to give total seal a call.
 
Although im not using my original pistons, they are overzised stock replacements from Sealed Power so they are not forged and hence you are supposed to use the gap recomended by the manufacturer....and taht would be the .011-.012. AFter all this measurements...i still dont know if im SUPPOSED TO even consider the gap...or if this gap is neglected b/c they are 'gapless' rings. What did u do with urs Mike38sc?

(Your right about there being so many variables to take into consideration, is'nt building engines fun? I hesitate to offer you any advice yet mainly because we still do not know exactly which ring set you have, there are several different combo's available. The rings I used are not the std TSS?91 series but are instead a combo of different ring sets that were recomended by the tech dept after telling them of my particuliar parts combo and my intended use of the engine.)

Regardless, I think im going to give total seal a call.(That would be the best advice that anyone could give you at this point. When in doubt always contact the mfg'er of the parts your using because they know what works and what does'nt.) :)
 
They call it gapless because the second ring has two rings that go end to end on one another. They have a little back cut in a ring that looks like a dyke ring and then a little ring that looks like a thinner oil ring. This creates a maximum of 2% blowby which is really good.
 
They call it gapless because the second ring has two rings True

the second ring has two rings that go end to end on one another.You lost me there. end to end?

They have a little back cut in a ring that looks like a dyke ring and then a little ring that looks like a thinner oil ring.True but that thin rail ring is actually 1 rail ring of an oil ring set.
 
I gave them a call and they told me that you do still gap them even when they are 'gapless' and that i should take THEIR gap measurements into account and not the ones from the manual. They double checked the part number of my rings and said i had the correct ones. So they told me to double check my bore size. I ordered a dial-bore gauge last friday so i should be getting it soon and with that ill double check the measuerments.
 
MIKE 38sc said:
They call it gapless because the second ring has two rings True

the second ring has two rings that go end to end on one another.You lost me there. end to end?

They have a little back cut in a ring that looks like a dyke ring and then a little ring that looks like a thinner oil ring.True but that thin rail ring is actually 1 rail ring of an oil ring set.
What i meant with the end to end is a rings gap is on one side and then you set the other rings gap 180 degrees away from that ring. I dont know about the thin ring included for the total seal is from an oil ring set. Maybe it is on a SC, but i have never seen that application on any other total seal.
 
Oh OK 180 deg apart yes. I dont think the 2nd ring rail is different on an SC, they look the same as any other Total Seal rings I've seen. They even use the same setup on there Harley Davidson rings, if you compare that rail ring with one of the oil ring rails I think you'll see by all apearances to be identical.
 
MIKE 38sc said:
Oh OK 180 deg apart yes. I dont think the 2nd ring rail is different on an SC, they look the same as any other Total Seal rings I've seen. They even use the same setup on there Harley Davidson rings, if you compare that rail ring with one of the oil ring rails I think you'll see by all apearances to be identical.
I think i confused this conversation by using the word thinness. I mean the width of the ring. Sorry about that. I feel like a jackass now.
 
***Holly thread resusitation batman!****

Well finally...problem re-visited. I went ahead and measured the cylinders with my dial bore gauge (took me a while to get it), and checked the measurements to finally verify that the block IS bored 20-over. So the problem is with the rings....and I rechecked, did some math and the numbers tell me that i got 10-over rings instead of 20.

Currently the gap on first top ring is .025 (HUGE oil streak when i pushed it through teh cyliner with a piston)

So: if i was to have a 10-over cylinder the size would be 3.812, in which case by total seal lit:

ring gap = 3.812 x .0055 = 0.0209....which is within specs.....BUT...also by total seal lit, an increase in .001 bore diameter (like on 20-OVER bore which i have :p ) "causes the ring end gap to increase by .0035"

SO

If I were to use that 10-over ring, on a 20-over bore:

endgap= 0.0209+.0035= 0.0244 OR the .025 that i was getting.....YAY.

Now the problem will be trying to see if total seal will send me a CORRECT set...since the purchase was made like dec. of last year. Its at least good to know what the problem was. NOw i can get rolling!
 
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On my box of total seal rings it says right on it for 3.830 bore. I measured my bore and its right on at 3.830 and i have .014 on the top ring. I need to file mine to .021. I know this dosent help but im sure if you would have looked on the side of the box it would have saved you alot of trouble. Hve fun trying to return something that old, im sure someone on here would buy them off you.
 
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