R12 to R13 conversion

$$$ if you want it to last.. $ if you don't. I'll get back to you on this. There are lots of trade-offs. :)
 
I did my own in my driveway for a total cost of about 40 bucks 3 years ago. Completely trouble free. I did suck out all of the R-12, but have since learned how to do it without even having to vacumn the system first. When it first became necessary to convert over 8 or 9 years ago I paid some thief about 600 smackers to do my truck. What a sucker I was.
 
Aminor_Accident said:
Looking into redoing my old system seems the compressor is shot whats invvolved changing it over to R13

If you plan on keeping the car 3-5 more years then get a new compressor, condensor, accumulator and fixed orfice tube then fill with your choice of oil and 134a. If you are like me and not sure that you want to invest that much money, you can get by fairly cheap.

If the compressor does not knock, try and reuse it. Go to a good local auto part store and buy:

If you think it's bad then buy a new compressor not a reman.
Fixed orifice repair kit and a blue orifice tube for your 89 * (this is important see below)
Buy new green o-rings in 6 8 and 10 sizes, I can’t remember off the top of my head how many you need of each size.
R134a retrofit kit
accumulator ( I would replace this especially if you buy a new compressor) This unit provides the oiling for the compressor and take the moisture out of the system.


Change all the o-rings in the system and use dielectric grease on them before assembly. Use a tubing cutter and repair your fixed orifice tube. When you cut the old orifice tube out this will give you a good inspection of the condition of the old compressor. If you see aluminum dust in there then the compressor is shot and you should replace it now. If it’s just clogged with black stuff then the compressor is on it’s way out and wont last more than a season or two. If you find a lot of contamination and decide to replace the compressor then you should flush the condenser at that time as well. The best thing about the fixed orifice repair kit is that it allows you to bleed the system down and inspect the orifice tube screen for debris if you have a problem down the road.

It's now ready for a vacuum pull down and recharge with oil and R134a.



* The 89 SC needs a blue orifice tube. Orange is too restrictive and some aftermarket replacement orifice tubes have the orange tube inside them. The orange orifice causes the compressor to cycle on the highway due to insufficient evaporator flooding.
 
As jerry said. Though the orifice tube is an integral part of the liquid line which is a $30 part. Due to the way to otube is crimped in and then the line bent, its a lot easier to buy/replace the whole line. :)

One other note.. do a forum search on black death compressor failure.. we've discussed it at length and have explained what happens, what all the parts do and why various parts need to be replaced or should be replaced. :cool:
 
markadeck said:
I did my own in my driveway for a total cost of about 40 bucks 3 years ago. Completely trouble free. I did suck out all of the R-12, but have since learned how to do it without even having to vacumn the system first. When it first became necessary to convert over 8 or 9 years ago I paid some thief about 600 smackers to do my truck. What a sucker I was.


I was wondering HOW you can change 12 to 134a without Evac. your system first without letting it into the air. Did you know that R12 is a CFC and it is a ozone depleating substance R 134a is still know to cause globle warming. All ears here. Also did you know that If you are caught letting refrigerant out the EPA can and will fine you 10,000. just thought you should know.
 
Aminor_Accident said:
Looking into redoing my old system seems the compressor is shot whats invvolved changing it over to R13

The cheapest way is change the compessor oil to ester oil change as many o-rings as you can and a vacuum on it for about half hour to make sure system is dry. Then charge with R134a. I'm EPA certified and have been doing Industial Refrigeration for many years and my father has been doing it for more than 25 years and has changing cars over for years.
 
Lessions Learned in Time

well at some point when the compressor went it released the gas something i didnt know so i took it to Midas only to have 3 1/2 pounds of r12 @$99 bucks a pound to AGAIn be leaked out they used a dye so you could see where it was leaking but only having A/C for a week and costing me 450 dollars seem like a big RIP off thats when i got FED up nobody is touching my car EVER would A/C stuff from a newer LX are SC be cheaper when doing this conversion?
 
Aminor_Accident said:
well at some point when the compressor went it released the gas something i didnt know
Neither did I until it broke.. then I learned.
so i took it to Midas only to have 3 1/2 pounds of r12 @$99 bucks a pound to AGAIn be leaked out they used a dye so you could see where it was leaking but only having A/C for a week and costing me 450 dollars
Same here, only it was city garage. Being that they do A/C work for a living, you wonder why they didn't think to check for leaks first off :confused: Could it be incompetence? sloppyness? Maybe they did check, but not very well. :confused: I didn't have them fix it again either.
thats when i got FED up nobody is touching my car EVER would A/C stuff from a newer LX are SC be cheaper when doing this conversion
Most of the components are the same, only the SC uses an 8 rib pulley whereas the Lx uses a 6. You have to buy the SC model compressor to get the proper pulley or use the clutch/pulley from your old compressor.
Oh, and always buy a new compressor or I'd shop here for a rebuild.. I haven't actually bought one from them, but they have an excellent support forum and Tim Bolinger seems like an honest and upfront guy. The site is AC Kits They even offer an FS-10 with a sump, although I don't know the price. The forum will tell you all about ins and outs of AC repair. What most shade trees do is the replacement and hookup and then take it in to a shop for charging. You can buy a set of guages and rent a vaccuum pump and DIY if you want, but the cost is a bit high for something that you should never ever need to do again if it was properly repaired. ;) Cost is about $80 for that job. If you DIY, $25 for pump rental, $50 for a cheap set of guages and hoses, $20 for refrigerant and oil. Or find someone with the tools to borrow.
 
Aminor_Accident said:
well at some point when the compressor went it released the gas something i didnt know so i took it to Midas only to have 3 1/2 pounds of r12 @$99 bucks a pound to AGAIn be leaked out they used a dye so you could see where it was leaking but only having A/C for a week and costing me 450 dollars seem like a big RIP off thats when i got FED up nobody is touching my car EVER would A/C stuff from a newer LX are SC be cheaper when doing this conversion?


I believe that any a/c parts will work as long as it is from a 96 and newer LX.
It's also illigal to charge a system that has leaked out without doing a pressure check with nitrogen and R22. I'd go after them to fix what wasn't fixed in the first place. R12 is very exspensive because it is not being produced anymore because it's a CFC and R134a is HFC witch is't as lethal to the environment. In realality R134a is a drop in refrigerant meaning if the system is in good working order you can change refrigerant by just draining the oil and charging with R134a with no problems. O by the way Midas is a muffler and tire shop go to a real a/c place where they know what they are doing.
 
Adam said:
Did you know that R12 is a CFC and it is a ozone depleating substance R 134a is still know to cause globle warming.
Or so we've been led to believe. There are serious holes in the "science" that led to the conclusions and subsequent law. ;)
Also did you know that If you are caught letting refrigerant out the EPA can and will fine you 10,000. just thought you should know.
That's purposely caught venting refrigerant into the air. If you have an accident which damages the A/C and causes a leak.. no fine. I'm not encouraging anyone to vent refrigerant, just point out that yes, at least that much (the fact that you can be fined) is a fact... whereas the fact that R12 depeletes the ozone layer is not. :rolleyes: Try not to, for legal reasons, but if it happens, don't loose any sleep over it.
 
TbirdSCFan said:
As jerry said. Though the orifice tube is an integral part of the liquid line which is a $30 part. Due to the way to otube is crimped in and then the line bent, its a lot easier to buy/replace the whole line. :)

One other note.. do a forum search on black death compressor failure.. we've discussed it at length and have explained what happens, what all the parts do and why various parts need to be replaced or should be replaced. :cool:


I know it's easier to replace the line, but I have found that most parts stores are selling the wrong orifice size (the color represents the size) inside the tube for the 89 application. It's one of those things where the line will fit other model years so they only carry one part number. I had bought the right lines in the past, but the last one I bought was wrong from O'Reily's, and I only found out after it was cut open. That's why I recommend the repair kit, that way you know what ORIFICE you have plus the line is most likely still in good shape. On my car with the orange color orifice, I was begining to think that 134a was just not going to cool like R12. It acted like a partially clogged orifice line as it cycled too much at highway speeds and was poor at idle as well. Only at about 1200-1500 rpm did it feel any good.
After getting a blue orifice tube in there the A/C is back to factory original in performance. I'm only using about 28 oz of R134a in my 89 SC as well. I have found that that works the best for me. I have a scale to weigh the 30 lb bottle.

Jerry
 
Shockwave said:
the last one I bought was wrong from O'Reily's, and I only found out after it was cut open. That's why I recommend the repair kit, that way you know what ORIFICE you have plus the line is most likely still in good shape. On my car with the orange color orifice, I was begining to think that 134a was just not going to cool like R12. It acted like a partially clogged orifice line as it cycled too much at highway speeds and was poor at idle as well. Only at about 1200-1500 rpm did it feel any good.
After getting a blue orifice tube in there the A/C is back to factory original in performance. I'm only using about 28 oz of R134a in my 89 SC as well. I have found that that works the best for me. I have a scale to weigh the 30 lb bottle.
Do you have the part number of the wrong line? I'm gonna feel pretty dumb if I've been driving around with an overly constricted Otube. The A/C is not radically different from any of the model years, I'd be surprised if Ford used a different size otube with the same type/size condensor. :confused:
 
TbirdSCFan said:
Do you have the part number of the wrong line? I'm gonna feel pretty dumb if I've been driving around with an overly constricted Otube. The A/C is not radically different from any of the model years, I'd be surprised if Ford used a different size otube with the same type/size condensor. :confused:

Okay it's 18 degrees out on a Sunday so with nothing else to do:

advanceautoparts.com


89SC
Factory Air 38621 ORFICE TUBE (BLUE)
Factory Air 55610 HOSE ASSY (Liquid line)
GDI 635545 (Condensor)

90SC
Factory Air 38639 ORFICE TUBE (ORANGE)
Factory Air 55610 HOSE ASSY (Liquid Line)
GO/DAN 635545 (Condensor)

How can they call for different orifice tube sizes but the same liguid line part number?


91 SC
Motorcraft YF2583 (liquid line)
GO/DAN 635545 (condesnor)
Motorcraft YG343 (orange orifice)


92 SC
Factory Air 55610 (liquid line)
Motorcraft YF2583 (liquid line)
Ready Aire 3519 (liquid line)
GO/DAN 635545 (condensor)
Factory Air 38639 (orange orifice tube)
Motorcraft YG343 (oragne orifice tube)
Ready Aire 6133N (Evap)

93SC

Ready Aire 6133N (Evap)
GO/DAN 635545 (condensor)
Factory Air 55610 (liquid line)
Motorcraft YG343 (orange orifice)

94 SC
Motorcraft YG343 (oragne orifice)
Factory Air 55610 (liquid Line)
GO/DAN 635542 (condensor)
Ready Aire 6151N (Evap)
Ready Aire 3519 (liquid line)


Factory Air website
45-635545 1989 - 1990 $115.28
Condenser - FORD THUNDERBIRD Years:1990-1989 OE#:E9SZ 19712 A

45-635545 1991 - 1993 $115.28
Condenser - FORD THUNDERBIRD Years:1993-1991 OE#:F1SZ 19712 B

45-635542 1994 - 1995 $148.72
Condenser - FORD THUNDERBIRD Years:1995-1994 OE#:F7SZ 19712 BA

They list three different Ford part numbers for the condensor, but list the same Facair part number for each. Why is the 94-95 a higher price?

0857-2169
Exp Device - FORD THUNDERBIRD Years:1993-1989 Engine:3.8L FACTORY AC W/SUPERCHARGER

0359-2378
Evaporator Core,Plate Fin - FORD THUNDERBIRD Years:1993-1989 Engine:INTEGRAL OE#:E95Z-19860-B


Four Seasons


They also list a Blue repair kit for the 89 SC and an orange for the 90 SC.

89 SC
38621 Expansion Valve / Orifice Tube (blue)

90 SC
38639 Expansion Valve / Orifice Tube (orange)

89-93 SC
53941 Condenser

94 SC
53936 Condenser


All I know is that with the Blue orifice tube in there the A/C works great. With the Oragne tube in there it wasn't as good. The blue orifice tube lowered my high side pressures quite a bit from what I recall and kept the low side up enough to keep from cycling on the highway. In 95 degree weather on the highway the with rpms over 2000, (70+ mph) the compressor would cycle. I even tried filling the R134a to 40 oz, but it did not help. That's when I decided that maybe I had a clogged orifice tube. So I cut the O'Reily one open and found a Oragne Orifice tube in there and the screen was completely clear so it wasn't clogged. I don't know what the part number was on the liquid line I got from O'Reily, but it was a Murray part though. That line was bare aluminum not painted black like all the ones I had gotten in the past from Autozone. So I bought the repair kit and a blue orifice tube. I have successfully converted a 90 SC and 90 Cougar LS with a liquid line from Autozone, those were painted black and looked exactly like OEM even down to the crimp were the orifice tube is. These two cars were done in 2000. The tube from O'Reily was purchased in 2003 and I struggled through that season with poor A/C. I only fixed it this season when I couldn't stand it any more.


Jerry
 
The 55610 is the same part that I have. If you pulled the orange tube out of the 55610 line, then there's an orange tube in the 55610 line.

The only reason for cycling in the CCOT design is to prevent freezeup which has a direct relation to core temp. If you had an OEM dual path tube and fin condenser for R12, then its understandable that a more restrictive tube (orange) would cause more frequent compressor cycling even though you probably weren't anywhere near freeze up.

I don't know how much more efficient the GDI condenser is than the tube-n-fin, but it is definitely different. When I picked mine up, I had them double and triple check the part since it looked different. I went ahead and used it and it was a perfect fit. But the few articles I coudl find say that the smaller, denser, multi path tube design, like the GDI replacement, is more efficient at removing heat. 30% sticks in my mind for some reason.

If the blue tube is larger, then I think what is happening is you're making up for lower condenser effeciency by running the refrigerant through faster and lowering the core temp at the same time. If the blue tube is larger, then it makes perfect sense that it would cycle less than a smaller diameter tube.

As for me, my high side pressures are a bit high and cooling is good (low 40 range on a 100 degree day), but not spectacular (I'd like 38 ;) ). Given the same condenser model, they (factory air) must have just assumed that they all take the same otube and to them, it doesn't matter that the new condenser works better because it'll be taken care of by pressure cycling.

I've seen recommendations that even GM cars should use the Ford blue otube for a retrofit. I may try it this spring because I just think theres some more cold to be found.. Of course, I can still monkey with the low side pressure and charge, but on a hot day, it doesn't really cycle much. What matters most of course is vent temps and the general rule is as cold as possible w/o evap freeze up. That works out to be about 38 at the vents. My setup was originally getting freeze up till I adjusted it, so we know that the orange tube should do the job; however, I think it makes the compressor work a bit harder. I'll have to think about using a blue tube. :cool:
 
I have the original condensor on my 89 SC, I have cleaned the outside and flushed the inside. I also run a 14" pusher fan in front of it so help with the IC . When I had trouble with the orange tube I tried even not using the pusher so at highway speeds it would force the pressures up but it didn't help.


The blue tube is larger than the orange.

Ford Orifice Tube (.067) - Blue
Ford Orifice Tube (.062) - Red
Ford Orifice Tube (.057) - Orange
Ford Orifice Tube (.047) - Brown
G.M. Orifice Tube (.072) - White
G.M. Orifice Tube (.072) - Black/White


You might want to look into these new varible orifice valves. http://www.supercool.ac/vov.htm

Jerry
 
Worms for sell

man did i open a can of worms lol anyways so i basically have a stock system i was just going to change the compressor with the clutch use a retrofit a134 sumthing i believe kit and fill with oil charge and im back to nice weather on the inside...... im i over looking anything for this? ...... should i pull the whole ac unit stuff off clean it and reinstall?
 
Aminor_Accident said:
man did i open a can of worms lol anyways so i basically have a stock system i was just going to change the compressor with the clutch use a retrofit a134 sumthing i believe kit and fill with oil charge and im back to nice weather on the inside...... im i over looking anything for this? ...... should i pull the whole ac unit stuff off clean it and reinstall?


If it was my car I would change the compessor and PUT it in a vacuum FIRST. Then charge with oil then freon R134a and be done as long as everything else is in good working order. Check your condenser(it's in front of rad.) to make sure it is free from road depree. Also make sure your Rad. fan comes on when A/c on or you will get high head pressue and cause even more problems. R134a and R12 are about the same in how the work just the propertys in them are differant (freon mixes) R12 is a cfc and R134a is a hfc.
If eveything checks out the proceed. MAKE sure you and 80% R134a the what R12 had. AND DO NOT OVER CHARGE! if you over charge the A/c will act as if it wasn't charged at all and will not cool and will have high discharge temp. Good luck.
 
Aminor_Accident said:
man did i open a can of worms lol anyways so i basically have a stock system i was just going to change the compressor with the clutch use a retrofit a134 sumthing i believe kit and fill with oil charge and im back to nice weather on the inside...... im i over looking anything for this? ...... should i pull the whole ac unit stuff off clean it and reinstall?

Our cars are so old now that every line could use a new set of o-rings. You can get a set of spring-lock removal tools at Autozone under the OEM brand for very little money. This is very easy to do and well worth your time. Then you can install your new $250+ compressor.

I would be shocked if the fixed oriifice line is not clogged with trash from the bad compressor.

Jerry
 
Shockwave said:
Our cars are so old now that every line could use a new set of o-rings. You can get a set of spring-lock removal tools at Autozone under the OEM brand for very little money. This is very easy to do and well worth your time. Then you can install your new $250+ compressor.

I would be shocked if the fixed oriifice line is not clogged with trash from the bad compressor.

Jerry

My car sat for 2 years with no freon and separated from compressor and all I did was drain the oil put new o-rings on back of compressor and vacuum.add oiland charged. So the question is what really happened to the compressor and why did it junk out? most of the time it's because there's a leak at the clutch shaft seal and if that happens blow out witch means it's a high-pressure leak. Your orfice is on the high side which if there is a leak it blows out not sucking in which no dirt or other stuff an get in. 9 times out of 10 your A/c is fairly clean so do what ever you what I don't really care I sold my piece of junk SC and now have a 03 cobra that the A/c works great and will smoke the hell out of any SC around so If you are will to sink your money into a car that is not worth a damn then spend $1000 just for the A/C. It's your money not mine. (Edit by Admin)
 
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