o-ringing and gaskets

Thomas

Registered User
for my 3.8sc block build-up for my 93 I'm going to o-ring the block. I havent read much into it yet, but I am getting there. From everything I have seen so far people use copper head gaskets with this method so the metal ring will press into the soft gasket and make a tighter seal than a fire ring does. So I need copper gaskets correct? Where can I get my hands on some and is any particular brand preferred over any other (if there are multiple companies producing them) I'd assume Fel-Pro probably makes a set but I am unaware of it if they do.
-Thomas
 
Thomas said:
for my 3.8sc block build-up for my 93 I'm going to o-ring the block. I havent read much into it yet, but I am getting there. From everything I have seen so far people use copper head gaskets with this method so the metal ring will press into the soft gasket and make a tighter seal than a fire ring does. So I need copper gaskets correct? Where can I get my hands on some and is any particular brand preferred over any other (if there are multiple companies producing them) I'd assume Fel-Pro probably makes a set but I am unaware of it if they do.
-Thomas
At the time I had copper hg made for my car, there weren't any available off the shelf. I had to send a company a gasket and they used it to make a template to cut my 2 copper hg's. But after waiting 4 years to actually assemble my engine, people started using the multi-layer gaskets with great success and that the route I went.

I suggest going with the multi-layer gaskets, but if your heart is set on the copper gaskets, I can sell you the set I have. Just shoot me a message.
 
so the multi-layer gaskets with fire rings can be used on o-ringing too? Thats really the questions Im trying to get answered.

I just dont want to change my hgs again and find that split fire-ring that let coolant into the cylinders :( I'm shooting for some high hp here, I wont go into details of the setup, but projected result is 10's.

-Thomas
 
I had my block cut for o-rings and special o-rings put in. They have held up pretty good so far. Now the best way from what I hear is to use the special gaskets. Either way o-ringing is a good Idea.
 
Thomas,

MLS gaskets don't use an oring...they also don't have a traditional fire ring. They are more like a stack of stainless steel shims with some contouring stamped in to provide a seal around the cylinders and water jackets.

They are the same gaskets that are used on late model F-150 4.2 truck engines. They also require a very smooth and flat surface to properly seal, not the usual milling serations that help grip composite gaskets.

I've been using them for about 3 years without any leaks. Here's a picture of one. Let me know if you need part numbers. BTW, you should also use ARP head studs instead of bolts.

headgasket110102.jpg


David
 
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ah okay. Yeah Ive done some reading on the 4.2 gaskets and Julian has those on his low 13 second car here locally. I didnt know that they were what you described though, so thanks for the info. I know you have to have a smooth polished surface for mating to them though, and that you have to remove some of the rivets. So I can use the 4.2 gaskets with o-ringing then? Arent they partly ceramic as well?
-Thomas
 
So I can use the 4.2 gaskets with o-ringing then? Arent they partly ceramic as well?

Yes you need to remove one of the brass rivets.

I've never seen them used with orings and don't reccomend it. But I have seen people fill thier oring grooves with JB weld and use the MLS gaskets.

Yes ceramic coated on some layers.

David
 
so would you recommend 4.2 gaskets over o-ringing and copper gaskets? And IS copper what would be used on an o-ringed block? I still havent gotten a deffinate answer for that. I'm looking into make a very strong block. I might end up using an 05 3.9L block and add 2 bolts to each main for 4 main caps. That would deffinetely make a strong motor, but I'm also making sure the head to block is strong too, and I know o-ringing is a very good way of doing that. I want the best for this block.
-Thomas
 
Thomas said:
so would you recommend 4.2 gaskets over o-ringing and copper gaskets? And IS copper what would be used on an o-ringed block? I still havent gotten a deffinate answer for that. I'm looking into make a very strong block. I might end up using an 05 3.9L block and add 2 bolts to each main for 4 main caps. That would deffinetely make a strong motor, but I'm also making sure the head to block is strong too, and I know o-ringing is a very good way of doing that. I want the best for this block.
-Thomas
I think the biggest thing you will have to worry about is the fact there are only 8 head bolts/studs that are supposed to hold the head down.
 
Yeah Ive thought about this as well. The GN's had 10 bolts and their aftermarket blocks have even more than that. I dont know that there would be anything I would be able to do about that so thats why I was looking into o-ringing and I already have ARP head studs.
 
Ive had great success with ARP head studs along with felpro head gaskets.

Ive also had good experience with felpro, ARP along with Oringing the heads on several of my cars.

The only thing that scares me about the MLS problem is that many people have had leakage problems due to a poor mating surface.

Good luck with whichever route you do take however:O)
 
Unless you are building a race only motor, I would tend to shy away from the copper head gaskets, and thus the o-ringing of the block.

Due to the difference in metals, aluminum head, steel block motors tend to get water leaks with the copper head gaskets as the engine cools off and warms up.

Since the MLS gaskets seem to be proven in some fairly stout SC motors it seems to be a pretty good option. Heck, there are some pretty stout SC motors running the standard Felpro head gaskets.
 
so would you recommend 4.2 gaskets over o-ringing and copper gaskets?

Thomas,

Yes I would. IMO, oringing and wire loc gaskets are old school and MLS gaskets are their modern day replacments. John Bennit (Bennit Racing) now uses MLS gaskets pretty much exclusively on his motors. I used them on my turbo motor too.

BTW, I'm not a race engine builder or an expert on the topic...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

David
 
Thomas, Coy Miller used to use stainless steel O-rings with the older style Fel-Pros to back up the metal fire ring. This has to be done pretty precisely or it can damage or tear the gasket and cause problems. I'm not sure what Coy is doing today, but from all I have heard and read, I would go with the newer style gaskets (with a very fine block finish) and be done with it.

Coy would also only groove the block and not cut a receiver groove in the heads, since the deck was already thin on the heads. I have this O-ring arrangement on my CMRE engine and it has held up for several years, but I believe it is old technology and the new gaskets (with the proper block finish) is now better.

Just be sure your shop can machine to the specs needed for the gaskets.
 
Thomas said:
I might end up using an 05 3.9L block and add 2 bolts to each main for 4 main caps.
-Thomas

Pro-Gram Engineering makes Billet caps for the Ford 3.8L V6. I take it they are 4 bolt caps but I'm not for sure. I've emailed the company but I haven't heard back from them yet.

www.pro-gram.com

  • Click Catalog
  • Select V6 from the drop-down box "--Specific Engine Type--"
  • They are the first three items displayed
 
The strongest head sealing is not o-ringing.

On a SC type setup ,The strongest seal would be to have a fire ring protruding above the block deck.The only way to do this ,is by boring
the cylinder out,And pressing in a sleeve.You will have a fire ring sticking
up above the block deck.Or by having a tall block,and machine the fire ring into and around the cylinder.You the cut a stepped receiver in to the head.
The sleeve and head will seal if machined proper.You then machine all
water and oil passages in the block and head.THen install rubber o-rings
to seal any fluilds.

I have never done this to a SC ford motor.But for fuel and gas powered
HDs I did not run any type head gasket.I would just machine the fire
ring .001 taller than the grove in the head.The lap both serfaces.It
works just fine from a 100 hp to 1000 hp blower bike.

Gaskets are for lazy machinest that do not complete there job.

To get the smoothest heads you lap the heads.Machining the decks
is just the beginning to a perfect deck job.

RANDY
 
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i thought about having a shop do it, and I had only intended to get it done on the block, but Ive seen people do it themselves and from what Ive read about it, it can be done pretty easily, it may cost more than having a shop do it, since they already have the tool and only charge labor, but it would be nice to have a tool like that. But if Dave thinks MLS gaskets are better than o-ringing then so be it. I'm looking at possibly putting over 20psi to this block so I want to be sure its ready to take it?
-Thomas
 
But if Dave thinks MLS gaskets are better than o-ringing then so be it. I'm looking at possibly putting over 20psi to this block so I want to be sure its ready to take it?

Thomas,

Don't do it just because I think the MLS gaskets are better. You must decide for yourself if that's the direction you want to go. I'm sure you can find plenty of guys around here who will dissagree with me on what head gasket is best.

Truth is I don't really know which is best, but I do know the MLS gaskets work great for me. And you won't find many guys who run more boost or rev their motor higher on a regular basis. It was a pretty easy decision for me because Chris Wise built my engine and he was already using them at the time. So was Chris Mendola and a few of the other fast cars in the club.

I'm running with about 18 pounds of boost and a 100 hp nitrous shot (aprox 450 rwhp) and no leaks. I think the gaskets will handle all the boost you can throw at it, but even with APR studs, at some point the heads will start lifting. I think I could probably get away with about 20 pounds of boost and a 125 wet shot...IMO, anything beyond that is very risky business.

David
 
cool, thanks for the info and the honesty. I've got a lot more reading to do before I come to a conclusion for my decision, but I think MLS will be it. Julian (T-bird4vr) uses the MLS and has had good luck with them as well, and he's going to be in the 12's pretty soon. I think thats the way I may go. Thanks for all the input. :cool:
-Thomas
 
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