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View Full Version : Experienced SC oppinions please!



FastBird91
02-22-2005, 11:57 PM
----The problems i am having on my 91' SC aod.---- The "perfect running SC" i have has just started running like crap and getting worst as time goes on. The problems is this......Now even at cold start up it idles a little funny, when it warms up it gets worst and might even start to shake bad enough to shut off. Often at restart.....it acts like the timing is waaay off, and eventually pulls enough power from the battery to crank it over and starts. My idle sticks at around 1500rpm especially when i gas it to stop it from shaking at a stop. The car smells lean. The harmonic balancer or the pulley seem to be wobbling or both. Can this all be caused by the harmonic balancer or pulley being broke or breaking??? Oppinions please.
Thanks

chadder1313
02-23-2005, 12:07 AM
Ive been having the same exact problem with mine. My problem was the MAFS. Try this... unplug the MAFS and start it up and see what happens. If it runs fine its your MAFS. It could be a lot of things. I really dont know if the ballencer would be causing it to idle rough or not but if its wobbling its not helping any. Its a long and time consuming process but dont give up. Let me know what happens.

BT Motorsports
02-23-2005, 02:13 AM
FastBird91, are you in SoCal? If so, I can meet with you to take a look at it.

Paul

discipled1
02-23-2005, 04:18 AM
The Failure Mode Effects Management (FMEM) system may be in effect due to a problem in the DIS. A hard starting engine, where it takes several trys of turning the engine over, (turning the key off, and back on, and trying again) is a sign of a DIS problem. Maybe this is what you are experiencing when trying to start the engine. This is referred to commonly as "Limp Home Mode."


If you lost the Positive Impulse Pulse? (PIP) signal from the Krank Shaft Position Sensor (KPS), the Distributorless Ignition System (DIS) will fix the timing to 10 deg. with no advance; and use the Cylinder Identification Data? (CID) from the Camshaft Position Sensor (CPS) for Tach and spark timing.

A worn timing chain, or a CPS that is not adjusted exactly, will cause the timing to be off, as 10 deg. to the EEC could just a well be 0 deg. in reality if the CPS is off that much.

FastBird91
02-23-2005, 10:22 AM
Yes Paul i live so. Cal. Ontario to be exact. Do you have scanners etc.. to help me try and figure it out?
Thanks

Discipled1, I dont think its the Dis because it causes most of the problems when the car is warm unless the D.I.S. is failing at warmer temperatures.
Thanks again

BT Motorsports
02-23-2005, 06:01 PM
Yes Paul i live so. Cal. Ontario to be exact. Do you have scanners etc.. to help me try and figure it out?
Thanks

Discipled1, I dont think its the Dis because it causes most of the problems when the car is warm unless the D.I.S. is failing at warmer temperatures.
Thanks again
Give me a call after 4:30 weekdays (leave a voicemail if I dont answer, I generally return calls within 15 minutes). Judging by your user name, your car is a 91? We can check for codes without a scanner. I also have a spare DIS we can swap out for diagnostics if need be.

Paul

FastBird91
02-23-2005, 06:19 PM
Thanks Paul, This weekend i am installing a new powersteering pump on my SC and i also have another D.I.S. i was going to swap with to see if it takes care of any of these problems i have. I will let you know by posting to this thread hopefully no later then this weekend. Again thank you and if i need to come see you i will ask you if i can do it early next week if thats ok.
Bill

FastBird91
02-23-2005, 06:37 PM
Hey Chadder1313, I went down to my SC and unplugged the mafs and started it up. The SC wassputtering a bit so while it was running i plugged it back in. After awhile it started to correct itself from sputtering and ran a little smoother. I unplugged it again while it was running and it started to sputter alittle again, I gave it some gas for a split second and it sort of stuck there at the higher rpm. I plugged the mafs back in and it immediately dropped rpm's but not to 800 or 900 like it should. The car was also warm so it should of idled at a lower rpm.
Thanks

BT Motorsports
02-23-2005, 07:19 PM
i also have another D.I.S. i was going to swap with to see if it takes care of any of these problems i have.
Be sure to get some dielectric grease for the DIS swap. DO NOT use heat sink compound.

Again thank you and if i need to come see you i will ask you if i can do it early next week if thats ok.
Sure, just let me know.

Paul

ThunderDave
02-23-2005, 07:35 PM
Paul, make sure to let Bill know that the problem usually ends up being the last thing you look for. :D

Hope you get it running good again.

David Neibert
02-24-2005, 10:10 AM
The harmonic balancer or the pulley seem to be wobbling or both. Can this all be caused by the harmonic balancer or pulley being broke or breaking??? Oppinions please.

I think this is the problem. Yes it can cause it to run crappy.

Take a look and see if the head of the bolt that holds the balancer to the crank is still there. Try moving the pulley up and down or side to side.

David

FastBird91
02-24-2005, 06:16 PM
Hi David, thanks for your oppinion. I went and popped the hood on my SC and was trying to pull the crank pulley in every direction to see if there is any play on it and was actually dissapointed because it was solid. I felt the large bolt in the center of the balancer and also the 4 bolts going from the pulley to the balancer. I am a strong guy and know if it was loose i would of been able to shake it back and forth. I started the SC and was eye balling the pulley and crank and noticed that it seems that only the pulley was wobbling a bit. The balancer didnt seem to be wobbling at all. I dont know if maybe the pulley is bent or what.
Anyways as the SC was running i disconnected the iac harness and the car started missing just like it does when i have those problems. It also seemed to be knocking while the iac harness was disconnected but i didnt pay to much attention to that because i can redline this motor and it never knocks at all. So as it is disconnected i rev the rpms to about 2500-3000 and when i let go of the throttle the rpms drop fast just like it shoul. I did this a few times and again revved up and revved down nice and smooth. When i plugged the iac harness back in the rpms when up to probably 1200 or so and took a long time to go down to about 1000 which is were it idles every since i started with these problems. I was at a wrecking yard a couple weeks ago and took the iac valve off of another SC and swapped it with mine hoping this would take care of my problem but it didnt change. I should of waited for a SC with less then 185,000 for the iac valve. But i figured it was good now im thinking it isnt good and it might be my iac valve. What do you think?
Thanks again

gldiii
02-24-2005, 06:45 PM
Paul, this statement is confusing to me:


Be sure to get some dielectric grease for the DIS swap. DO NOT use heat sink compound.

I can see using dielectric grease on the connectors at either end of the early style DIS module, but I would want heak sink compound between the DIS and the heatsink (aka AC/Jackshaft bracket).

David Neibert
02-24-2005, 11:38 PM
Hi David, thanks for your oppinion. I went and popped the hood on my SC and was trying to pull the crank pulley in every direction to see if there is any play on it and was actually dissapointed because it was solid. I felt the large bolt in the center of the balancer and also the 4 bolts going from the pulley to the balancer. I am a strong guy and know if it was loose i would of been able to shake it back and forth. I started the SC and was eye balling the pulley and crank and noticed that it seems that only the pulley was wobbling a bit. The balancer didnt seem to be wobbling at all. I dont know if maybe the pulley is bent or what.
Anyways as the SC was running i disconnected the iac harness and the car started missing just like it does when i have those problems. It also seemed to be knocking while the iac harness was disconnected but i didnt pay to much attention to that because i can redline this motor and it never knocks at all. So as it is disconnected i rev the rpms to about 2500-3000 and when i let go of the throttle the rpms drop fast just like it shoul. I did this a few times and again revved up and revved down nice and smooth. When i plugged the iac harness back in the rpms when up to probably 1200 or so and took a long time to go down to about 1000 which is were it idles every since i started with these problems. I was at a wrecking yard a couple weeks ago and took the iac valve off of another SC and swapped it with mine hoping this would take care of my problem but it didnt change. I should of waited for a SC with less then 185,000 for the iac valve. But i figured it was good now im thinking it isnt good and it might be my iac valve. What do you think?
Thanks again

I don't think the IAC is the problem....sounds more like a small vacuum leak. Spray all the IC tube connections and vac hoses with carb or brake cleaner to see if you can find a leak.

David

FastBird91
02-25-2005, 12:53 AM
This weekend i am installing a new powersteering pump. While i have the intercooler tubes off i will look at all the vacuum lines closely.
Thanks

BT Motorsports
02-25-2005, 12:57 AM
Paul, this statement is confusing to me:

Be sure to get some dielectric grease for the DIS swap. DO NOT use heat sink compound. I can see using dielectric grease on the connectors at either end of the early style DIS module, but I would want heak sink compound between the DIS and the heatsink (aka AC/Jackshaft bracket).George, beyond the fact that the factory service manual states in bold:
Apply an even coat of approximately 0.80mm (1/32 inch), Silicone Dielectric Compound WA-IO, D7AZ-19A331-A (ESE-M1C171-A) or equivalent to the mounting surface of the ICM
experience from my SCPerformance days further supported not using heat sink compound. During the famous DIS shortage, we had a rash of modules returned to us that had apparently failed after as little as 2 weeks. The conclusion was that the each unit which failed had heat sink compound used with it. As a result, we began advising all who purchased a module to explicitly use dielectric grease only. Never had a failure after that.

Paul

David Neibert
02-25-2005, 10:03 AM
This weekend i am installing a new powersteering pump. While i have the intercooler tubes off i will look at all the vacuum lines closely.
Thanks

What are you using to seal the IC tubes ? Either get a set of Wynns teflon gaskets or use Permatex Copper RTV (orange). The stock teflon tape doesn't work too good at awkward angles (like when adding a raised top).

Put zip ties on all the vacuum hoses.

David

FastBird91
02-25-2005, 11:21 AM
I have Wynns teflon gaskets. What do you mean by put zip ties on all the vacuum hoses?
Thanks again

David Neibert
02-25-2005, 01:18 PM
I have Wynns teflon gaskets. What do you mean by put zip ties on all the vacuum hoses?
Thanks again

Where ever a vacuum hose attaches to a nipple, add a zip tie to the hose and pull it as tight as you can get it, then trim the excess with wire cutters. It serves the same function as adding a small hose clamp. Most of these connections are behind the supercharger and are a real pain to reach.

David

FastBird91
02-25-2005, 09:03 PM
Hi david, thanks for ellabirating. I will definately do that tomorrow while i am putting on my new p.s. pump. My top is leaking so i will take that off and reseal it with copper rtv (im sure that will work) and while i have the top off i will check all the hoses and zip tie them tight. Quick question how tight should we torque the tops nuts (or bolts cant remember) and the intercooler tubes? Also if any hoses are cracked any reccomended type to replace them?
By the way i just got new tires today, 245/50/16 they fit awesome no rubbing anywere!
Thanks again

XR7 Dave
02-25-2005, 09:41 PM
George, beyond the fact that the factory service manual states in bold:
Apply an even coat of approximately 0.80mm (1/32 inch), Silicone Dielectric Compound WA-IO, D7AZ-19A331-A (ESE-M1C171-A) or equivalent to the mounting surface of the ICM
experience from my SCPerformance days further supported not using heat sink compound. During the famous DIS shortage, we had a rash of modules returned to us that had apparently failed after as little as 2 weeks. The conclusion was that the each unit which failed had heat sink compound used with it. As a result, we began advising all who purchased a module to explicitly use dielectric grease only. Never had a failure after that.

Paul

Not to me overly contrary, but my Ford OE shop manual states "Apply a uniform coating of heatsink grease ESF-M99G123-A or equivalent to the mounting surface of the DIS module." Considering the fact that all SC's come with heatsink grease on them from the factory, I'd have to guess that it's a pretty safe bet that such information is accurate. I can't imagine what purpose dielectric grease could provide in this case?

BT Motorsports
02-25-2005, 10:12 PM
Not to me overly contrary, but my Ford OE shop manual states "Apply a uniform coating of heatsink grease ESF-M99G123-A or equivalent to the mounting surface of the DIS module." Considering the fact that all SC's come with heatsink grease on them from the factory, I'd have to guess that it's a pretty safe bet that such information is accurate. I can't imagine what purpose dielectric grease could provide in this case?
As it has been said, a picture is worth a thousands words. Below is a screencapture from my Ford Helms disc. Let's also not assume Dave that heatsink grease purchased at places such as radioshack or hardware stores is the same as the heatsink grease you mentioned.

Paul

FastBird91
02-25-2005, 10:16 PM
Where can i get a Ford Helms disc?
Thanks

BT Motorsports
02-25-2005, 10:46 PM
Where can i get a Ford Helms disc?
Thanks
If I recall correctly, Helms didn't put the manual on disc prior to 1993 models so you will have to purchase the book format.
http://www.helminc.com/helm/Result.asp?Style=&Mfg=FMC&Make=FCT&Model=TBIR&Year=1991&Category=1&Keyword=&Module=&mscsid=56K3X9XTT4C48HHJRFJQ1LW33C869AP6

Paul

XR7 Dave
02-25-2005, 10:53 PM
As it has been said, a picture is worth a thousands words. Below is a screencapture from my Ford Helms disc. Let's also not assume Dave that heatsink grease purchased at places such as radioshack or hardware stores is the same as the heatsink grease you mentioned.

Paul

Paul,

Your original post said
Be sure to get some dielectric grease for the DIS swap. DO NOT use heat sink compound.

This is ambiguous at best and less than helpful no matter how you look at it. Dielectric grease is commonly known as a clear silcone based grease used to ensure clean and weather-tite connections on electical connectors subject to moisture and corrosion. It is not specifically intended to transfer heat effectively. You can buy dielectric grease at any parts house just as well as you can buy heatsink compound just about anywhere. Doing so will in no way assure you of adequate performance. To suggest that generic dielectric grease is superior in this application to heatsink compound is quite presumptuous IMO.

If you look up both part numbers listed in your example as well as mine (I'm not scanning in my Helms page), in both cases the product is listed as a "compound" NOT just a grease and in both cases the purpose of the compound is to transfer heat. The compound you listed is also a dual purpose grease used to lubricate brakes. The one I listed is a specific heat sink compound.

In any case, both products listed are quite adequate for the purpose listed and both are more than just a "dielectric grease" as you suggested in your original post. It is NOT there to protect any electrical connection as is the common purpose of "dielectric grease" but rather specifically to transfer heat. I would go so far as to suggest that your experience may be more attributable to coincidence than anything else but one cannot say for sure.

BT Motorsports
02-26-2005, 12:41 AM
It is not specifically intended to transfer heat effectively.
Volvo has a differing opinion as they use it with some of their ignition systems to transfer heat. OTC Permatex dielectric grease is interchangable with the compound Volvo uses, which also demonstrates it sufficiently transfers heat for the purpose stated above. I have a 90 xr7 which has used the Permatex dielectric grease for over 96xxx miles of use during the course of 4 years. I would say that is enough to back up the interchangability.

At no point in time did I state or suggest it to be used
to protect any electrical connection as is the common purpose of "dielectric grease" in this application.

After having to warranty over 45 modules and finding that each and every unit had heat sink compound used on it as the only common factor, I feel my experience is sufficient. Certainly far enough from being a coincidence.

My intent was and still is to assist FastBird91 in getting his car running well again, not to debate grease and compound. I am not going to further debate which to use, I have stated my experience. The final decision is up to the end user.

Paul

MIKE 38sc
02-26-2005, 02:12 AM
OMG my Electrical engineering degree just burst into flames and fell off the wall! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!! :p

ThunderDave
02-26-2005, 07:25 AM
Well, at least now fastbird knows that which ever one he chooses to use for this very delicate application might work or might not work. :D :eek: And he'll know what to try next if it doesn't. ;)


Mike, I told you to keep a fire extinguisher by your degree, just in case anything like this ever happened. And now look at you. :eek: Maybe we can get Manny to photoshop you a new one. ;)

XR7 Dave
02-26-2005, 10:53 AM
I wasn't trying to debate the issue nor was I trying to discredit what you said specifically but you have to recognize that when you post something which seems contrary to common use, OE practice, and product design and intent without so much as a reason for saying such, you might get questioned. I too have removed, installed, diagnosed and replaced a couple (Not 45!) DIS modules as well. I have always noted that Ford uses a heatsink compound and have always used the same when replacing said units. I've not come accross a subsequent failure nor do I expect to.

I also recall the discussions on these boards about the many DIS failures that occured around the same time as you were dealing with your problems. Several other people had similar problems when purchasing the modules at other places than SCPerfromance. It could very well be that Standard was having a quality issue and all available DIS modules were bad at that time. Since Standard is (as far as I know) the OE manufacuter and most likely the ONLY manufacturer of DIS modules it makes sense that a bad run of the product would result in the situation you described. Of course I'm sure you considered that possibility already and eliminated it to your satisfaction as a possible scenario.

In my experience I have run into situations where people were burning up DIS modules one after another as well. In both of the cases I dealt with, a wiring problem eventually turned out to be the cause of the problem. I personally have no reason to believe that the module is that sensitive in the first place but of course I may be wrong. The fact that an OE manufacturer is using the product for heat transfer, while encouraging, does not necessarily reflect superior quality or properties for the application. We all know that generally speaking the OE will go with the least expensive solution that works for an application.

As usual you have as good a reason as anybody for stating what you did. My apologies for turning this into what may appear to be an argument.

MIKE 38sc
02-26-2005, 01:35 PM
Well, at least now fastbird knows that which ever one he chooses to use for this very delicate application might work or might not work. :D :eek: And he'll know what to try next if it doesn't. ;)


Mike, I told you to keep a fire extinguisher by your degree, just in case anything like this ever happened. And now look at you. :eek: Maybe we can get Manny to photoshop you a new one. ;)


Well without trying to be a trouble maker let me just say that back when I was in school if I had gotten caught using Dielectric grease as a heatsinking compound I would have flunked the course. But that would have happened after the teacher slapped the taste right out of my mouth. LOL!!!! :p
Dielectric grease has no heat transfering capabilities because its only Silicone and will eventualy just melt and ooze away into nothing from the heat of the components.
Heatsinking compound(white compound) on the otherhand has ground up Silicon powder in it. Silicon heatsinking compound was the first heatsinking compound and is the staple of the industry. There are now a couple of slightly different compounds out there that are considered high performance compounds, these are Arctic Silver and Arctic Silver Alumini. These compounds do work very good as my testing has proved a 3-4 deg centigrade temp drop from reg silicon compounds. ;)

MIKE 38sc
02-26-2005, 01:42 PM
EDIT: Sorry but this was a double post. I hope the powers to be get the bugs worked out of the system here, this is driving me crazy. :confused:

FastBird91
02-26-2005, 02:38 PM
Well........man now im more confused then ever you guys. Dielectric or heatsink??? I would guess they are both ok. Anyways the dis module is going to wait because i am thinking the problem is going to be a vacuum leak. I am going to remove my p.s. pump right now and the top because that is also leaking. While i have these off i figure i will go through every inch of vacuums and try to find one that is leaking or close to it and replace them. Then hopefully my pump will be in as planned later this afternoon and install it. I will see you all later.
This has to be the coolest website for car people that has ever been made!
Bill

MikeKanterakis
02-26-2005, 09:28 PM
I have used Artic Silver under my DIS for the past 2 years now. With-out any detriment. I first found out about the stuff on overclocking forums. It works well on my computer (4 years now) and works well on the DIS. Has it worked any better than di-electric grease? I don't know. But I do know that one of the properties that Artic Silver prides itself on is that it is not conductive (meaning that it is very very UN-likely that a short could occur because of the use of Artic Silver.

Here's the link: LINK (http://www.arcticsilver.com/)

I'd go with Artic Silver 5. I has a heat range of "Long-Term: 50C to 130C".

Also, what gives with the shop manual, in the paragraph style directions, telling us to put a uniform application of ESF-M99G123-A or equivalent, but the picture below shows an intracate dot pattern where a "grease dot" should be applied? ~~~? :confused:

MIKE 38sc
02-26-2005, 11:09 PM
Well........man now im more confused then ever you guys. Dielectric or heatsink??? I would guess they are both ok. Anyways the dis module is going to wait because i am thinking the problem is going to be a vacuum leak. I am going to remove my p.s. pump right now and the top because that is also leaking. While i have these off i figure i will go through every inch of vacuums and try to find one that is leaking or close to it and replace them. Then hopefully my pump will be in as planned later this afternoon and install it. I will see you all later.
This has to be the coolest website for car people that has ever been made!
Bill

I would use heatsink compound because plain ole dielectric grease has no thermal transferance properties at all. ;) But what do I know? They probably only taught us about that stuff in school to pass the time. :rolleyes:

MIKE 38sc
02-26-2005, 11:16 PM
I have used Artic Silver under my DIS for the past 2 years now. With-out any detriment. I first found out about the stuff on overclocking forums. It works well on my computer (4 years now) and works well on the DIS. Has it worked any better than di-electric grease? I don't know. But I do know that one of the properties that Artic Silver prides itself on is that it is not conductive (meaning that it is very very UN-likely that a short could occur because of the use of Artic Silver.

Here's the link: LINK (http://www.arcticsilver.com/)

I'd go with Artic Silver 5. I has a heat range of "Long-Term: 50C to 130C".

Also, what gives with the shop manual, in the paragraph style directions, telling us to put a uniform application of ESF-M99G123-A or equivalent, but the picture below shows an intracate dot pattern where a "grease dot" should be applied? ~~~? :confused:

What kinda rig you run'in Mike?
I'm running a Athlon XP 1700 at 2 gig with a 10 multiplier x 200 FSB on a Soltek SL-75FRN2-L motherboard. Not too bad for a $40 CPU. :D
I use Artic Silver as well, pretty good stuff. ;)

FastBird91
02-27-2005, 02:15 AM
I am back after a long day of replacing the p.s. pump. The results are excellent. The steering is not real stiff at idle any longer after warming up. The problem i had with the SC missing real bad at idle (especially at warm temp.) is solved too! The i/c tube nuts next were very loose almost finger tight. I knew that was it as soon as i saw them. Vacuum leak it was. I used "t-bird88" gaskets and now instead of redlining at 12 p.s.i. im going to 13 p.s.i. However under a heavy load i am getting some cutting out at times. I figure this was there before and with the extra power im getting now without the vacuum leak the car is showing it more. It cuts out and the tach jumps big time when it cuts out. But atleast the big problem is fixed. Now i can park between cars without having to put the gear in neutral and revving it to get some power assist!
Thanks all for helping. And if i dont figure out the problem of cutting out under a load soon i will be asking you all for help again. By the way my air filter is dirty and im thinkig that may be it.
Thanks again

MikeKanterakis
02-27-2005, 10:55 PM
Mike 38sc, I think the chip is an Athalon 1600, maybe 1700, not sure. I got it at Fry's electronics about a year or so ago for $60, including motherboard. So, needless to say, I'm too scared to overclock it with that motherboard. (not actually sure that I could now that I think about it.) 2 gigs, that's pretty fast. What do you use to cool it? When I get rich, I'm gonna get me one of those really cool water cooling systems, and run it through a big 'ol tranny cooler on the side of my box. he he he I'll probably use some Evan's in there too. :p
I had a Soyo a few years ago, but Jim's got that now b/c he's at college and I mostly just surf the net, and download movies and crap; so the speed isn't really being missed. Besides, I hate that dang fan noise.

FastBird91, maybe wanna check your plug wires. I had a really wierd cutting out happening under heavy loads. Turns out those Taylor wires I "custom made" didn't work out so good. It was really wierd, I would be racing along, and all of a sudden, the car would just go silent. and then come back to life.

MIKE 38sc
02-27-2005, 11:17 PM
Mike I'm using a $28.00 CoolerMaster heat pipe heatsink with a slow fan(but its big and quiet). The highest my temp my CPU gets is 38 deg cel. I have run it stabley at 2.4 gig with a 240 mhz front side bus and the 10 multiplier.
My 1700 Athlon is a Thourobred core so the multipliers are unlocked. I just go into the BIOS and make a few settings and bam the CPU fly's.
I cant help myself, I just simply must hop up everything I have. LOL!!!! :D
I'm a sick man. :o

MikeKanterakis
02-27-2005, 11:28 PM
LOL, we all are, that's why we're here. wanna hack your x-box? go to www.xbox-scene.com

I put in a 200 gig hard drive, and have all kinds of games on there now. I also play downloaded movies right to my tv from the thing too. it's awsome. :D

Phillio99
02-28-2005, 12:30 AM
My old man got all burned out from the day job, came home and modded out our X-Box too. This computer stuff isn't my forte, but i know our X-box can record live tv and play it back like a TIVO. Downloads games too, pretty sweet, not bad for an old guy who grew up when a color TV was rare.