Shifting Issues (5 spd)

So within the last couple days, my 5 speed has decided it likes to shift less and less from a complete stop. It has a new clutch and slave cylinder and that cool stuff.

With the car off, i can run through all the gears no problem, but when the car is running, at a stop, it will not want to shift into any gear (except reverse). If i'm moving a little bit, i can get it into first with a little more force than should be required. Oh, but if i just sit there with the clutch in for about 5-10 seconds before trying to shift, it will go in just fine, so it sounds to me like a hydraulic issue with the clutch not disengaging all the way right away.

Within the next couple days im going to check the tranny fluid and make sure that is fine, and then try bleeding the clutch, if that doesn't help i think ill need a new clutch master cylinder... Until then ill just drive around carefully, shifting slowly as to not give the synchros too much work to do.

If anyone has a similar issue or any input, feel free to post here. Thanks.

It sounds like your synchros are on the way out. I hope they aren't for your sake but it sounds like it

umm, if the synchros were on their way out, wouldn't it grind when i tried to put it in gear? (as it is, it just wont physically move into gear, and i dont want to force it in, so i don't try to). And also, wouldn't it not make a difference how long i held the clutch down, it would be the same?

I think it sounds like a hydraulic issue with the clutch not fully disengaging right away, but doing so after about 5-10 seconds.

gspacerant said:

So within the last couple days, my 5 speed has decided it likes to shift less and less from a complete stop. It has a new clutch and slave cylinder and that cool stuff.

With the car off, i can run through all the gears no problem, but when the car is running, at a stop, it will not want to shift into any gear (except reverse). If i'm moving a little bit, i can get it into first with a little more force than should be required. Oh, but if i just sit there with the clutch in for about 5-10 seconds before trying to shift, it will go in just fine, so it sounds to me like a hydraulic issue with the clutch not disengaging all the way right away.

Within the next couple days im going to check the tranny fluid and make sure that is fine, and then try bleeding the clutch, if that doesn't help i think ill need a new clutch master cylinder... Until then ill just drive around carefully, shifting slowly as to not give the synchros too much work to do.

If anyone has a similar issue or any input, feel free to post here. Thanks.

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In the interest of prolonging the life of your syncros, avoid shifting gears under the conditions in which shifting is difficult. In other words, when stopped at lights leave the trans in gear with the clutch depressed, etc.

If the clutch were dragging due to a hydraulic issue, then sitting still would never result in easy engagement. It actually sounds more like a bad pilot bearing.

XR7 Dave said:

In the interest of prolonging the life of your syncros, avoid shifting gears under the conditions in which shifting is difficult. In other words, when stopped at lights leave the trans in gear with the clutch depressed, etc.

If the clutch were dragging due to a hydraulic issue, then sitting still would never result in easy engagement. It actually sounds more like a bad pilot bearing.

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Yea that is pretty much what i had been doing, keeping it in gear at lights, and not driving around much really. Also had been double clutching any time i downshift just to give the synchros as little work as possible.

And, i dont know if it makes sense to anyone else, but it does in my mind. But it seems to me like when i press down the clutch, it disengages almost all the way immediately, and then over the next 5ish seconds it will disengage the rest of the way, which... wouldn't that be a hydraulic thing? Either air in the system or a bad clutch master cylinder? Im nowhere near an expert on hydraulics or fluid systems, but is this feasible?

gspacerant said:

Yea that is pretty much what i had been doing, keeping it in gear at lights, and not driving around much really. Also had been double clutching any time i downshift just to give the synchros as little work as possible.

And, i dont know if it makes sense to anyone else, but it does in my mind. But it seems to me like when i press down the clutch, it disengages almost all the way immediately, and then over the next 5ish seconds it will disengage the rest of the way, which... wouldn't that be a hydraulic thing? Either air in the system or a bad clutch master cylinder? Im nowhere near an expert on hydraulics or fluid systems, but is this feasible?

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it makes sense to me because i just had my tranny completely rebuilt and its kinda doing the same thing. i didnt put a clutch or anything in it when i had it out but i wish i did....oh well. the clutch is still good im pretty sure. if bleeding the clutch doesnt fix it how exactly do you? it might be the slave cylinder too...i hope not. what exactly is the clutch master cylinder...that little jug under the hood with clutch fluid in it? any help would be appreciated guys...i dont wana mess the synchros in my new tranny up. i gota get it fixed soon...the clutch im pretty sure is in good shape...i can still get good sideways rubber in 3rd.

im pretty sure it isn't the slave cylinder, i just bought the car, but the previous owner (who i trust and is a competent person) had the clutch and slave cylinder replaced not too long ago. And im not especially familiar with all the stuff on the car, but i believe the clutch master cylinder is in that area just on the outside of the firewall near that reservoir. Im just hoping it isn't anything expensive or that i would need to drop the tranny for...

gspacerant said:

Yea that is pretty much what i had been doing, keeping it in gear at lights, and not driving around much really. Also had been double clutching any time i downshift just to give the synchros as little work as possible.

And, i dont know if it makes sense to anyone else, but it does in my mind. But it seems to me like when i press down the clutch, it disengages almost all the way immediately, and then over the next 5ish seconds it will disengage the rest of the way, which... wouldn't that be a hydraulic thing? Either air in the system or a bad clutch master cylinder? Im nowhere near an expert on hydraulics or fluid systems, but is this feasible?

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No. It's not a hydraulic problem. Air in the system will reduce TO bearing travel and cause a dragging clutch, but the clutch system is a self bled system. It does not require bleeding under normal circumstances and normal driving will keep the system bled. Unless there is a leak, air in the system is highly unlikely.

If the MC were bad it would bleed down over time meaning that eventually the car would start to drive away with the pedal down. After your foot is to the floor, it will not gradually keep adding pressure.

oh.... well damn. So uhh, can you tell me more about a bad pilot bearing by chance? Thanks

edit: pilot bearing, would that be the bearing where the input shaft goes into the gearbox? If so, damn... any idea how much it might cost to get it replaced at a tranny shop?

It's the one in the rear of the crank. If you didn't replace it the first time then that's more than likely the problem.

The pilot bearing (or bushing in some applications) keeps the foward end of the trans input shaft from wiggling around and centered in the crankshaft. If it's bad it drags slightly and turns the input shaft making it very hard to put the trans in gear.


Jeff

im going to guess it wasnt replaced when the new clutch was put in (i just bought the car recently so i didnt actually do that). Hmm, ok, i was just thinking of the mainshaft bearings, alright, i think i have a general idea of what you're talking about. Is there by chance a link that shows pictures/describes how to swap it out? Or an estimate of how much it might cost to have someone else do it for me?

Have you ever done a clutch before? If so most of them are all the same. The Pilot bearing presses into a hole in the center of the crank. The flywheel bolts to the crank with a hole in the center. The clutch plate sits against the flywheel with a splined hole for the input shaft of the tranny to go through. The pressure plate clamps the clutchplate to the flywheel and sandwiches the clutch between the two. There is an alignment tool (it's plastic with splines, looks like the end of the input shaft with a ring on the end to pull it out) that is slid in place so that the clutch plate and pilot hole line up and the trans can be slipped into place.

Cost of a new pilot bearing: about $10.

Cost of the labor to R&R the trans and install said new pilot bearing: about $500

Jeff

well, damn, was really hoping id be able to do this myself. Ive done a little bit relating to putting a new clutch in and i think i know what you're talking about, but unfortunately im not home and dont really have the facilities to do much, i've also assembled a trans, but dont really have access to facilities to do things at. Guess it looks like ill be trying to find a transmission shop that wont charge me too much to swap it out, and i guess i should have the tranny rebuilt at this time also? *sigh*

D'OH!

uhh, i checked the clutch fluid a little bit ago (dont know why i didnt do that first), it appeared to be full, but was nasty and black looking, and had a couple little pieces of something in it, not really sure, but they were definately not fluid. I guess even if it doesnt fix my problem i should flush the system out and fill it back up/bleed it eh?

If your fluid has chunks in it I'd flush it. Costs you only a bottle of fluid. Pull the rubber inspection plug off the side of the trans and look in there. See if you are getting good throwout bearing travel. I agree with the pilot bearing being a likely problem but trying the above first won't hurt anything. While you are down there take a look to get an idea of whats involved in changing the pilot bearing. You CAN do it your self. It's a bit of work but it's not rocket science. Get a good manual, factory if you can and see how things go together. A basic tool set and a weekend of your time and you should be able to fix it. The specialized tools you need are: clutch alignment tool $5-15 at most auto part stores. Ford clutch line tool, I got one for 3 buck at Napa. And a bearing puller. You can probably rent all of these at Autozone for a few bucks. Male sure you use jack stands and wheel chocks before getting under your car.
Consider replacing your rear main seal while you are in there. Check the last owner and see if he replaced the clutch slave recently, if not replace it now. That one is a bit expensive at about 100 bucks.
Search the site and you will find the procedures for replairing just about anything. And if you run into problems just post here again.

as a bit of a followup, i got my problem fixed. Clutch Master cylinder started to die so i changed that out but it still had some problems. Then i took it to a shop to get a new pilot bearing and slave put in. They were both fine (replaced em anyway), but apparently the previous owner didnt get the bolts from the pressure plate to the flywheel quite tight enough and they had backed out a bit. Also the driveshaft bolts were a bit loose. So back to happy driving for me.