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View Full Version : Anyone Interested In Water Injection



1badgtp
05-23-2005, 08:41 PM
Just gauging interest. I have a GTP and it works great on our cars just checking to see how many of you SC guys run it or want to run a progressive system.

92strokedbird
05-23-2005, 08:59 PM
I have asked many and they say that it is very useful to keep the car from detonating.Just not sure how much it is worth for our cars.

lube70
05-23-2005, 09:37 PM
I have a few guys that would be interested.


Don

1badgtp
05-23-2005, 10:10 PM
On a gtp we can drop from the stock 3.8 pulley to a 3.25 with no other mods and not get a lick of KR and full timing. Or just drop down to a 3.4 pulley and use 87 octane. Whatever pulley size you need race gas to run you can run it on alcohol injection.

biggcountry5656
05-26-2005, 08:36 PM
how does this work

XR7 Dave
05-26-2005, 08:38 PM
We are currently testing a progressive system. Look for results and test data to be posted soon.

XxSlowpokexX
05-27-2005, 01:01 AM
This is funny because everyone a year or two ago was saying it wasnt worth it to run an alchohol/water injection kit..Now all of a sudden its something thats being tested?...Hell I had great gains with it 4 years ago.....How times change around here..I should dig up some of these posts

KwikGSeX
05-27-2005, 11:36 AM
I thought that was for the propane injection?

yardbird
05-27-2005, 07:35 PM
Glad to see some interest. I'm new here, but have been looking a water injection for years. If I ever get this damn Super coupe going, it will have water/alcohol injection. I am planning on about 9 to 1 comp and will use the injection for a safety valve if cheap gas will work for daily use. I have been looking at the availability (SMC etc.) It amazes me how much confusion there is about this injection. Some people seem to think you have to turn the water hose down the intake (figuratively speaking) and that you will "wash" the oil off the cylinder walls and destroy the engine. Guess what, the oil rings get most of it off anyway, if not, they complain about having a "smoker"! Water (actually water vapor) only gets into the combustion part of the chamber, which is the small part at the top of the stroke. After combustion, water vapor and fuel vapors (fuel vapors remove more oil than water vapor/steam probably) oil is still splashed onto the cylinder walls below the oil ring only!! So whatever is in the combustion chamber has nothing to do with what is below the rings---. I realize that there are some slight variables in that process, but not of great concequence. Obviously if you flood the chamber with water, there will be a problem----the biggest problem will be---engine wont run or is way down on power.

If you have any doubts about the benefits of water/alchy injection, just ask the GN Buick guys about the benefits after one of those 600 horse GN blows our doors in. I know, they are much lighter etc. and arent comperable to our SC's.

I dont claim to be an expert on much of anything, but if I am way off on my accessment of water injection, then so are a lot of people on the GN sites :)

YB

XR7 Dave
05-27-2005, 08:16 PM
The problem with water/alcohol injection (Damon has a short memory lol), is that the current systems are all constant flow rate systems. They work well for vehicles which have a more or less flat HP curve. This is typical for a turbo. By the time the motor gets up on the boost it is well into the torque band of the motor and HP stays pretty flat until it starts to fall off. I'm oversimplifying it, but therein lies the shortcomings of any of the systems that have been around for awhile.

Now look at centrifugal blower systems. They don't make boost at low rpm and hence don't need the injection to kick in until boost (which is tied to rpm) builds significantly.

Now, what about us? Well, since we can generate full boost at 2000rpm, and the resulting HP curve from there to redline is rather dynamic, we need a system which adjusts according to the airflow into the motor as rpms increase. None of the previous systems could do this. The SMC is an adjustable system, but unless you are going to have someone sit there and turn the knob while you drive, it will never inject the right amount of water/alcohol at the right time. You are either stuck with too much at low rpms or too little on the big end.

Think about that for a moment.

Rick Mink
05-27-2005, 09:53 PM
The problem with water/alcohol injection (Damon has a short memory lol), is that the current systems are all constant flow rate systems. They work well for vehicles which have a more or less flat HP curve. This is typical for a turbo. By the time the motor gets up on the boost it is well into the torque band of the motor and HP stays pretty flat until it starts to fall off. I'm oversimplifying it, but therein lies the shortcomings of any of the systems that have been around for awhile.

Now look at centrifugal blower systems. They don't make boost at low rpm and hence don't need the injection to kick in until boost (which is tied to rpm) builds significantly.

Now, what about us? Well, since we can generate full boost at 2000rpm, and the resulting HP curve from there to redline is rather dynamic, we need a system which adjusts according to the airflow into the motor as rpms increase. None of the previous systems could do this. The SMC is an adjustable system, but unless you are going to have someone sit there and turn the knob while you drive, it will never inject the right amount of water/alcohol at the right time. You are either stuck with too much at low rpms or too little on the big end.

Think about that for a moment.

Anderson Ford Motorsports Mr Freeze metanol/h20 injection is activated by boost and is metered through jetting. isnt that what you are looking for???


Rick

XR7 Dave
05-27-2005, 11:03 PM
Anderson Ford Motorsports Mr Freeze metanol/h20 injection is activated by boost and is metered through jetting. isnt that what you are looking for???


Rick

No it's not. How much alcohol is injected at 15psi boost at 2000rpm vrs. 15psi boost at 6000rpm? The same. Therein lies the problem. It needs to continuously adjust for airflow.

seawalkersee
05-28-2005, 01:39 AM
What about nitrous? Its the same principal for the cooling right? Is it not a consistant flow as well unless you run a second stage?

Chris

XR7 Dave
05-28-2005, 10:35 AM
Not at all the same. Not even close. Nitrous adds a static amount of HP at all rpms and provides its own fuel.

seawalkersee
05-28-2005, 02:40 PM
Is there a way to do this with two injectors for the water system? One for alcohol and one for watter? Set it up like the alt:fuelpump like the GNX guys use that full fields the alt at full boost stright to the pump to hit the fuel volume all the way up.

Chris

XxSlowpokexX
05-29-2005, 04:02 AM
The Snow setup used MAF voltage

seawalkersee
05-29-2005, 01:24 PM
What are the advantages over N2O? Is it just the price?

Chris

XR7 Dave
05-29-2005, 06:25 PM
The Snow setup used MAF voltage
Actually that should read "The Snow setup now uses MAF voltage." I'll be testing one soon. :)

XxSlowpokexX
05-30-2005, 03:41 AM
Dave,

Then you know its an option...They have done several installs on turbo and supercharged cars. My personal experience with alcohol injection has been more boost with less fuel and more timing. I actualy had a home made setup installed in my 89 SC 4 years ago. It worked well enough to notice a different only after messing with the fuel pressure. On my A/R powered 5.0 I was able to run more boost with more timing and less fuel.

The problem I had getting it to really do any justice for the SC was that I had no electric means of tuning and could not mess with the timing whatsoever. I'm sure Dave will have good luck with it. There is no way you wont make more power with it..

Wait I got yelled at about this subject a few years back too...damm..haha

XR7 Dave
06-10-2005, 01:12 AM
Test results are in. Check the link. (http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?p=419751#post419751)

:)

seawalkersee
07-07-2005, 09:33 AM
Soooo, with that much tq, what kind of track numbers do you forsee?

Chris

Oh yeah...what happened to your pm status Dave?