351 engines-Windsor, Cleveland, Modified, what are the differences?

im not an expert but the windsdor is in the 302 class the clevland is from the 335 class. the clevland has way bigger heads but crappy oil situation. from waht i hear the clevland is one of the best engines ever made. i have my eye set on one. but the windsor is cheaper and has parts more readly avaible
 
351 W has larger bearing journals and smaller ports making it a better truck engine and more emissions friendly than the 351 C.

The 351C was an excellent performance engine whereas the 351W was better suited to station wagons and trucks.

The 351C was used in Australia (go figure) after it was discontinued in the US in 1973.

In 1971 there was a larger version of the 351C made. It became known as the 400M. Basically it was just a taller block with the same design heads and larger bearings. The 351M shared the same larger block as the 400M and both were pretty much boat anchors.

Now anymore both Ford and the aftermarket offer 351C style heads or straight up better flowing Windsor heads making the 351W a good performer. Serious race applications will still use a Cleveland style crank with the smaller bearings. The Windsor style bearings are not suitable for high rpm use.
 
i think the 351 w will bolt into what a 302 fit like mustangs the intake is about an inch wider than 302 and the oil pan is different
 
My 2 cents.

As indicated, the 351 is basically the same as the 302. The bore is esentially the same but stroke is longer which moves the heads up by something on the order of 1.9 inches and out making it wider. So, the 351w can use many 302 parts (heads, cam, etc) the intake mainfold is wider so that is not interchangable. It will bolt in place of a 302. Plenty of speed parts at reasonable price, very durable.

351 C heads can be made to fit a windsor but ver expensive. Ports are large and great for upper rpm horsepower but not too great for making torque. Not sure if it will bolt up to a 302 bellhousing.

Hope this is helpful.

Doug
 
The 351 C had ovel exhast ports on the heads. The 351 W had rectangular exhaust ports and larger crank bearings. In short, the heads on the C engine were easier to port for more power. Also i know the cleveland blocks came in a 4 bolt main. I'm not sure if the Windsor block did. Between the two I would go with the Cleveland engine. More power gains available from it. And if you use quality parts, you get a dependable engine. I believe they even had a conversion for the mains. To convert them from two bolt to a four bolt.

The 351M is a 351 modified 400. cleveland engine that has a 400 crank in it from the factory. A torque monger for the big 3/4 ton vans and pick ups. It has all the power at the lower rpm range.

The more dependablity you have the less power at the wheels.
So the question is, how much power do you want to get?

If it were me, I'd go for the 351C. Port out the heads, larger valves, then with the block, Bore it out 30 over, check the deck for trueness, convert it from 2 bolt mains to a 4 bolt if needed. They used to put steel cranks in the 351C that came in pick up trucks. In any case, i'd still go for a steel crank. Most of these cam companies offer a cam, lifter, valve, spring package. If you call them and tell them what your looking for, they can fix you right up.

Any of the engines has potential. You can get the 4 bolt main conversion on the 302s and the 351s. I would stay away from the 351m and it wasn't designed for high rpms.
Personally, if i were to do something like this, I'd have to go cheap and plan for expansion later. 351C...cam package for the ported heads, clevete bearings, steel crank, forged pistons. Run about 9.5:1 compression. In case i want to add nitro or forced air later.

I don't know if I helped any but good luck on your project.


What are you looking for? Big power now? $$$
Not as big on power but want the dependability??
 
Thanks for all the info guys. I'm not building this motor for me just helping someone else with one.
 
Major is Size!

Spyder pretty much hit the nail on the head for all the major points. It's a 302 with a higher deck height and a few other small differences. If I was building something to swap into a smallblock setup, it would be a 351W because of the size, parts and potential. The Modified and Cleveland are "big" blocks and will take some work to make them fit into something a smallblock came out of. But, a "built" 351M or 400 can be a real thumper and torque wizard if you pay the right attention to the pistons, cam, heads, porting, intake and carb. Good truck and work engines. The Windsor's a More-Fun type of engine...
 
The 351 M is an awesome engine if rebuilt right. I have a one wich is now a 406 stroker in my 1981 bronco and it goes like stink. It cost me 5 gs and will beat any thing from an integra to a berreta, next goal is to beat my friends wimpy lude vtech. If the truck wasnt so heavy i think it would perform quite well in a car.
 
Wasn't a quick reference between the "C" and the "W" engines to look at the fuel pump and the "C" engines was bolted top and bottom while the "W" engines were bolted left and right side????.....Just me asking I'm no expert....
 
my buddy has a 400 M boat anchor in his car it puts out over 600 rwhp !

the 400 M with 351 clevland 4 bbl heads is a monster must make your own manifold for this swap but the 4 bbl heads were to big for the 351 but just right on a 400
 
Is that all it makes Manny? :confused: It'll take more than 600hp to stop an ocean going vessel.

For everything anybody might say there is always someone who will dispute it. :rolleyes:

As far as "boat anchor" status, the stock heads on the M motors are large chamber, small valve, small port heads. The block is big and heavy, and the displacement is not remarkable. The bearings are high drag and overheat easily. Does that mean that if you are determined enough you can't make them run? No, it just means that you are starting with a dissadvantage. That's all. Kinda like SC's. ;)

I've seen 600hp Caddy engines. That doesn't mean they are great performance engines.
 
351m/400

I'll have to ease in on this one---. I have some experience w/400's and a lot of reading on Bronco sites. My brother had/has a 79 Bronc with a 400. Holly projection, Crane cam (old "Blazer" grind--too much duration for heavy vehicle), Full length headers, etc. Thing was really a "hoss", especially for about 5200 lbs. I have a 70 Mach I mustang w/351C 4bbl that I hope dosnt turn into dust in my garage before I can get back to it! The reason for all that info is that I do have some knowledge on the subject.

Hate to disagree XR7 Dave, but the 400 is not particularly big and certainly not heavy by big block standards. The 351W, 351C, 351M and 400 are considered "small blocks". Respective weights are W-525 lbs, C-550 lbs, 351M/400-575 lbs. The clevelands , M and 400 are all part of the 335 family of engines. The 385 series, 370,429,460 are all about 720 lbs. Even all the "FE" engines (332,352,360,390,428 and 427's (plus several other variants) all were over 600 lbs. But then, all this info is readily available in any of the Ford rebuild magazines.

Deck height for the 351M/400 is about 1 inch higher than the 351W. Bore spacing on 302's,351W,351C,351M/400 is all the same. 351M/400 has 460 bellhousing pattern and slightly different mounts. 351M/400 heads were open chambered as were clevelands after about 71-73. 400 heads have almost as much potential as 2bbl C's except for waterjacket in exaust valve area. 2 & 4 bbl C heads bolt right on and Edlebrock and Weiand both make a bolt on 4bbl intake. Adapters (price motorsports) are available for wide range of intakes. For that matter, Windsor heads will bolt on with minor plugging of a water jacket opening in the 335 series blocks. Intake adapters are available for that senario as well. As you probably already know, early 408 stroker cranks were made from 400 cranks, so main and rod journels are the same for the 351W and 351M/400. Cleveland had smaller Mains.

The heavy "boat anchor" image was because the 400/351M (in that order) series came along at a time when Detroit was appeasing the tree huggers. Just like the 460's of that era (I had one in a E250 van). Changing the crank gear for a "police interceptor" gear got the cam time back to either 8 or 16 degrees advanced which woke them up. Unfortunately the 400 was, except for the 71 year, severely down on compression. But then, gasoline was also extremely poor. 350 blazers and 360 mopars were not up to the task.

If it were not that these motors, even the Clevelands, are so obsoleted now, I would build one in a NY second. But just as I say that, I see that Edlebrock may be popping out aluminuim heads for them once again!! Also, flow figures for almost any of the aftermarket aluminum heads outflow the cleveland style heads. Unfortunately, for those who liked these engines, technology has caught us and the PIA factor makes these engines less than good choices.

Not trying to insult anyone, but much incorrect/uninformed info floating around about these engines. They are very capable of producing good horsepower and particularly good torque.

YB
 
fuel pump

Yes grasshopper---
Fuel pump bolts to a protrusion on the block (actually part of the block casting) which covers the timing chain on the 351C/M--400. The fuel pump bolts to a timing chain cover that is a separate piece and is aluminum, on the 351W, same as the 302.
Also, no coolant passages or thermostat housing in the C/M/400 intake manifold. Thermostat and top radiator hose plumb in to top if the front block protrusion on these motors. 351W/302 motors have t-housing and top hose plumbing on front of intake manifold. C/M/400 heads use distinctly different valve covers--kinda like 460's. Top part of the exaust port casting is distinctly "squared". Lower head bolts are longer than W's. Bolt hex is at the top and to the side (of course!) of the exaust port casting.
Having a little bit of knowledge about a 35 year old motor kinda dates me "don't" it! -----damn!
YB
 
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