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View Full Version : 351 engines-Windsor, Cleveland, Modified, what are the differences?



Jake
06-08-2005, 07:50 PM
Just need the basic differences.
Thanks.

midgetchaser
06-08-2005, 07:55 PM
im not an expert but the windsdor is in the 302 class the clevland is from the 335 class. the clevland has way bigger heads but crappy oil situation. from waht i hear the clevland is one of the best engines ever made. i have my eye set on one. but the windsor is cheaper and has parts more readly avaible

midgetchaser
06-08-2005, 08:01 PM
i woudl actually like to know more about it if anyone has any imput

Mike8675309
06-08-2005, 08:23 PM
Here is some cleveland info:
http://www.boss351registry.com/351_Cleveland.htm

The windsor is a much more popular motor as many more were built. My dad's 76 Tbird had the 351 Windsor in it. Parts for it are much more plentiful and the 351 Cleveland is known for having a bottom end that is it's achilies heal.

Here is some info on the M/Cleveland as well.
http://www.fordcobraengines.com/Modified%20History.htm

XR7 Dave
06-08-2005, 09:23 PM
351 W has larger bearing journals and smaller ports making it a better truck engine and more emissions friendly than the 351 C.

The 351C was an excellent performance engine whereas the 351W was better suited to station wagons and trucks.

The 351C was used in Australia (go figure) after it was discontinued in the US in 1973.

In 1971 there was a larger version of the 351C made. It became known as the 400M. Basically it was just a taller block with the same design heads and larger bearings. The 351M shared the same larger block as the 400M and both were pretty much boat anchors.

Now anymore both Ford and the aftermarket offer 351C style heads or straight up better flowing Windsor heads making the 351W a good performer. Serious race applications will still use a Cleveland style crank with the smaller bearings. The Windsor style bearings are not suitable for high rpm use.

rlong
06-08-2005, 11:00 PM
i think the 351 w will bolt into what a 302 fit like mustangs the intake is about an inch wider than 302 and the oil pan is different

SC Spyder
06-09-2005, 08:52 AM
As indicated, the 351 is basically the same as the 302. The bore is esentially the same but stroke is longer which moves the heads up by something on the order of 1.9 inches and out making it wider. So, the 351w can use many 302 parts (heads, cam, etc) the intake mainfold is wider so that is not interchangable. It will bolt in place of a 302. Plenty of speed parts at reasonable price, very durable.

351 C heads can be made to fit a windsor but ver expensive. Ports are large and great for upper rpm horsepower but not too great for making torque. Not sure if it will bolt up to a 302 bellhousing.

Hope this is helpful.

Doug

1HUMINBIRD
06-09-2005, 09:03 AM
Here is a link to an excellent book on interchangeability. You can order it from Amazon.com or find it at a bookstore or library.

http://www.bevenyoung.com.au/prdt1433.htm

Scott

goodguy
06-09-2005, 09:05 AM
The 351 C had ovel exhast ports on the heads. The 351 W had rectangular exhaust ports and larger crank bearings. In short, the heads on the C engine were easier to port for more power. Also i know the cleveland blocks came in a 4 bolt main. I'm not sure if the Windsor block did. Between the two I would go with the Cleveland engine. More power gains available from it. And if you use quality parts, you get a dependable engine. I believe they even had a conversion for the mains. To convert them from two bolt to a four bolt.

The 351M is a 351 modified 400. cleveland engine that has a 400 crank in it from the factory. A torque monger for the big 3/4 ton vans and pick ups. It has all the power at the lower rpm range.

The more dependablity you have the less power at the wheels.
So the question is, how much power do you want to get?

If it were me, I'd go for the 351C. Port out the heads, larger valves, then with the block, Bore it out 30 over, check the deck for trueness, convert it from 2 bolt mains to a 4 bolt if needed. They used to put steel cranks in the 351C that came in pick up trucks. In any case, i'd still go for a steel crank. Most of these cam companies offer a cam, lifter, valve, spring package. If you call them and tell them what your looking for, they can fix you right up.

Any of the engines has potential. You can get the 4 bolt main conversion on the 302s and the 351s. I would stay away from the 351m and it wasn't designed for high rpms.
Personally, if i were to do something like this, I'd have to go cheap and plan for expansion later. 351C...cam package for the ported heads, clevete bearings, steel crank, forged pistons. Run about 9.5:1 compression. In case i want to add nitro or forced air later.

I don't know if I helped any but good luck on your project.


What are you looking for? Big power now? $$$
Not as big on power but want the dependability??

Parker Dean
06-09-2005, 08:39 PM
For further research, the Cleveland Forum:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/119419

Jake
06-09-2005, 09:45 PM
Thanks for all the info guys. I'm not building this motor for me just helping someone else with one.

Booster
06-10-2005, 11:16 PM
Spyder pretty much hit the nail on the head for all the major points. It's a 302 with a higher deck height and a few other small differences. If I was building something to swap into a smallblock setup, it would be a 351W because of the size, parts and potential. The Modified and Cleveland are "big" blocks and will take some work to make them fit into something a smallblock came out of. But, a "built" 351M or 400 can be a real thumper and torque wizard if you pay the right attention to the pistons, cam, heads, porting, intake and carb. Good truck and work engines. The Windsor's a More-Fun type of engine...

slappinpavement
06-11-2005, 04:38 AM
The 351 M is an awesome engine if rebuilt right. I have a one wich is now a 406 stroker in my 1981 bronco and it goes like stink. It cost me 5 gs and will beat any thing from an integra to a berreta, next goal is to beat my friends wimpy lude vtech. If the truck wasnt so heavy i think it would perform quite well in a car.

Sweet90SC
06-11-2005, 01:59 PM
Wasn't a quick reference between the "C" and the "W" engines to look at the fuel pump and the "C" engines was bolted top and bottom while the "W" engines were bolted left and right side????.....Just me asking I'm no expert....

mannysc
06-11-2005, 02:45 PM
my buddy has a 400 M boat anchor in his car it puts out over 600 rwhp !

the 400 M with 351 clevland 4 bbl heads is a monster must make your own manifold for this swap but the 4 bbl heads were to big for the 351 but just right on a 400

XR7 Dave
06-11-2005, 10:37 PM
Is that all it makes Manny? :confused: It'll take more than 600hp to stop an ocean going vessel.

For everything anybody might say there is always someone who will dispute it. :rolleyes:

As far as "boat anchor" status, the stock heads on the M motors are large chamber, small valve, small port heads. The block is big and heavy, and the displacement is not remarkable. The bearings are high drag and overheat easily. Does that mean that if you are determined enough you can't make them run? No, it just means that you are starting with a dissadvantage. That's all. Kinda like SC's. ;)

I've seen 600hp Caddy engines. That doesn't mean they are great performance engines.

yardbird
06-12-2005, 11:38 PM
I'll have to ease in on this one---. I have some experience w/400's and a lot of reading on Bronco sites. My brother had/has a 79 Bronc with a 400. Holly projection, Crane cam (old "Blazer" grind--too much duration for heavy vehicle), Full length headers, etc. Thing was really a "hoss", especially for about 5200 lbs. I have a 70 Mach I mustang w/351C 4bbl that I hope dosnt turn into dust in my garage before I can get back to it! The reason for all that info is that I do have some knowledge on the subject.

Hate to disagree XR7 Dave, but the 400 is not particularly big and certainly not heavy by big block standards. The 351W, 351C, 351M and 400 are considered "small blocks". Respective weights are W-525 lbs, C-550 lbs, 351M/400-575 lbs. The clevelands , M and 400 are all part of the 335 family of engines. The 385 series, 370,429,460 are all about 720 lbs. Even all the "FE" engines (332,352,360,390,428 and 427's (plus several other variants) all were over 600 lbs. But then, all this info is readily available in any of the Ford rebuild magazines.

Deck height for the 351M/400 is about 1 inch higher than the 351W. Bore spacing on 302's,351W,351C,351M/400 is all the same. 351M/400 has 460 bellhousing pattern and slightly different mounts. 351M/400 heads were open chambered as were clevelands after about 71-73. 400 heads have almost as much potential as 2bbl C's except for waterjacket in exaust valve area. 2 & 4 bbl C heads bolt right on and Edlebrock and Weiand both make a bolt on 4bbl intake. Adapters (price motorsports) are available for wide range of intakes. For that matter, Windsor heads will bolt on with minor plugging of a water jacket opening in the 335 series blocks. Intake adapters are available for that senario as well. As you probably already know, early 408 stroker cranks were made from 400 cranks, so main and rod journels are the same for the 351W and 351M/400. Cleveland had smaller Mains.

The heavy "boat anchor" image was because the 400/351M (in that order) series came along at a time when Detroit was appeasing the tree huggers. Just like the 460's of that era (I had one in a E250 van). Changing the crank gear for a "police interceptor" gear got the cam time back to either 8 or 16 degrees advanced which woke them up. Unfortunately the 400 was, except for the 71 year, severely down on compression. But then, gasoline was also extremely poor. 350 blazers and 360 mopars were not up to the task.

If it were not that these motors, even the Clevelands, are so obsoleted now, I would build one in a NY second. But just as I say that, I see that Edlebrock may be popping out aluminuim heads for them once again!! Also, flow figures for almost any of the aftermarket aluminum heads outflow the cleveland style heads. Unfortunately, for those who liked these engines, technology has caught us and the PIA factor makes these engines less than good choices.

Not trying to insult anyone, but much incorrect/uninformed info floating around about these engines. They are very capable of producing good horsepower and particularly good torque.

YB

Sweet90SC
06-13-2005, 12:07 AM
uuuuuhuuuuuu!!!.....so was I right about the fuel pump bolt patterns of the two or not.. :confused:

yardbird
06-13-2005, 08:39 AM
Yes grasshopper---
Fuel pump bolts to a protrusion on the block (actually part of the block casting) which covers the timing chain on the 351C/M--400. The fuel pump bolts to a timing chain cover that is a separate piece and is aluminum, on the 351W, same as the 302.
Also, no coolant passages or thermostat housing in the C/M/400 intake manifold. Thermostat and top radiator hose plumb in to top if the front block protrusion on these motors. 351W/302 motors have t-housing and top hose plumbing on front of intake manifold. C/M/400 heads use distinctly different valve covers--kinda like 460's. Top part of the exaust port casting is distinctly "squared". Lower head bolts are longer than W's. Bolt hex is at the top and to the side (of course!) of the exaust port casting.
Having a little bit of knowledge about a 35 year old motor kinda dates me "don't" it! -----damn!
YB

XR7 Dave
06-13-2005, 09:44 AM
uuuuuhuuuuuu!!!.....so was I right about the fuel pump bolt patterns of the two or not.. :confused: No one is going to actually answer that. I bet no one knows. :p

yardbird
06-13-2005, 10:44 AM
O.K. gotta be a dare!!
Give me a minute or 2 or 3 or 4------ and I will go look.
YB

yardbird
06-13-2005, 10:57 AM
Sweet90SC--
With these two old, fogged over, blood-stained eyes I have verified that the 400 (351M/351C) engine has a vertical bolt pattern while the Windsors, as we all know, have a horizontal pattern. Through the same eyes, the 400 has 8 valve cover bolts while the Windsors have 6.
After looking at the thread again, I realize you asked a simple
question and got everything but the kitchen sink--! I appologize, I should have given an eye-ball positive answer to begin with!!

YB

90blkbrd
06-13-2005, 01:03 PM
The 351W, 351C, 351M and 400 are considered "small blocks".

When did a 351C become a small block??

sizemoremk
06-13-2005, 01:12 PM
When did a 351C become a small block??

I've never really heard Fords referred to as big block and small block around here... That's usually a chebby thing isn't it? I've just always heard W/C/M, etc...

The magazines and catalogs don't realy call them big blocks either do they?

XR7 Dave
06-13-2005, 05:03 PM
When did a 351C become a small block?? um, since, like forever? :p I've always thought of the M series motors to be big blocks, but on closer inspection of the specs, I think it would be safe to say that the M motors are mid blocks. Maybe that is what the M should really stand for. lol

BlackbirdSC
06-13-2005, 07:52 PM
Dave's on the right track. The 335 series engines were 'mid blocks' because they weren't in the 90 degree family (260, 289, 302, 351w) and they were too small to be in the 'big block' FE (360, 390, 427, 428 etc) or 385 series (429, 460) class.

There were 2 things that made the 351M and 400M such toads from the factory. Stock compression was 7.8:1 and the cam had less than 180*@.050". Just sticking in a 200-210 duration cam made the things come alive, even with the stock 2 bbl intake. Unfortunately, piston selection for the M motors is very limited, so it's not easy to get the compression up to 9:1, which would add 5-8% power across the board.

The only thing I'll correct Dave on is the heads of the M motors. Stock M heads out flow many of the aftermarket Windsor heads. They came with 2.08" intakes and 1.65" exhaust even in the worst heads. With the canted valve angle and moderate runner size, they could be exceptional heads with minor bowl cleanup and a good 3 angle valve job. The 7.8:1 compression is what gave them the bad rap. But through the 70s, that's what most truck motors had to keep from yacking on a hot day pulling a boat up a mountain.

There actually was a Clevor crossbreed that some shops built. You take a Windsor block and put M or C heads on it. Redrill a couple coolant passages and you're set.

Oh, another thing... the Ms didn't really have a bad oil system. Just about everyone that I've seen has blown the main bearings out of it. It's not really the oil systems fault. I'd asked about it when I worked in the engine shop and my boss explained that Ford rushed the M blocks into production. Typically, a block is cast then left outside to 'season' for a long period of time (sometimes years). Apparently, most M blocks were given less than 6 months, perhaps as little as 4-6 weeks. So after the block heat cycled a few times, it freaked out and all the specs went to hell. The blocks I checked (about 10 of them) all had main bore issues. Either out of line or out of round by about .002". If the customer wouldn't pay for an align hone, we'd have to run .004" main clearance to keep the mains from burning up. That's just how much the block tweaks when it takes a set.

yardbird
06-13-2005, 11:29 PM
BlackbirdSC

Sounds like you have some experience with the 351M/400 engines. I have to disagree with you on a few points however. This is certainly not intended to be a flame or challenge to you. :) As old as these engines are, they are almost not worth the effort of much different opinions. As I said previously, technology has pretty well done these engines in. If edelbrock does pop off some aluminum heads for these motors (Australian 2 bbl heads in aluminum are already available, even some 3 valve big bux heads are available) then we may have a whole new ball game for these canted valve small block engines. Twisted wedge heads may not be the only heads with canted valves. I have not looked into the angles for the various heads, but these heads may be better in design than the TW heads. Most all the aftermarket blocks are available with 9.2 deck ht. With a set of aluminum cleveland heads, then we will have a "new" cleveland! Price Motorsports makes numerous adapters for different ford heads and intakes on different ford blocks. The "Clevor" is/was made with cleveland heads on windsor blocks. The reverse can also be done, Windsor style heads on a cleveland style block and can use fuelie intakes! I just do not know if the canted valve heads are inherently better than in-lines. I think so, but you experts are gonna have to tell the rest of us if there is an advantage with canted valve heads for most street applications.
Now, some things you said that I have questions about---again :) 351C/M/400 not 90 deg engines like the 260/289/302/351 ?????? Think I gotta respectfully call you on that one!
Also, never heard the term "Mid block", Never saw it in any material on these engines either. There is some discussion as to whether the "M" stood for Midland or Modified. Most material indicates that "Modified" is correct. Modified means the 351 version, which came after the 400 means this engine is a modified 400 that has a 3.5 stroke crank instead of a 4 in stroke. The 400 does not need a letter designator, because ford only made 1 400 cu. engine---ever! In the ford tech/rebuild mags/articles --yes, 260/289/302/351W-C-M/ 400 are all small blocks! I am amazed that with as much written material about all these engines, some people have not heard of a "small block Ford"---no disrespect intended, but this simply amazes me! But then I may be simple to start with!!
I am enjoying this thread, maybe I can learn something--. I do have a 70 Mach I w/4bbl cleveland that I want to rebuild/restore, so this all interests me----
TX :) YB

XR7Kurt
06-14-2005, 07:32 PM
Just a few things I know in case you're friend is looking at different engines:

Along with 2V and 4V versions of the Cleveland heads there were high and low compression versions commonly referred to as closed chamber and open chamber respectively. I believe the change happened midway through 71', so there was about 1 1/2 years worth of the closed chamber heads. When the switch was made Ford called the low compression motors 351 Cobra Jets.(At least the 4Vs.

As mentioned earlier in this post the thermostat housing is in the block instead of the intake. This is a big flat spot right next to where the distributor sits. I guess this makes it possible for water to collect where the distributor sits because I had an old one that I needed to use a torch to cut the distributor out of. I don't know if it water leaked from the thermostat housing or what, it was an old car even back in the 80's. :D

Way back when I used to think the angle of the spark plugs and the width of the head made changing plugs a pain.(in a mustang) Of course now with the SC it doesn't seem like it was that bad!

I switched from a 302 to a 351C in a 69' Mustang and I think the motor mounts were the same but the water pump to bottom of radiator was on different sides. I can't remember about the top.

No doubt there are a ton more aftermarket parts for the Windsor, I'd love to have a 392 stroker.

As far as street performance I think it's a toss up. For stock engines I don't think any of the choices given would touch a 351C 4V with the closed chambered heads. The 70' Mach I with this engine has one of the best 1/4 mile times of the early Mustangs. The 71' Boss 351 was a higher compression with solid lifters and was in the 13's for the 1/4 mile.

My Mustang had a 351 CJ, aluminum intake(that leaked due to a stripped out carb stud), headers, a hydraulic Crane cam that I picked because it was close to the Boss 351 specs, and and electric fan. It had a C6 and a 3.89 Detroit Locker. Every time I shifted into third at full throttle there would be 2-3 seconds of stumbling, even with that and the intake/carb leak I ran 14.20's @ 97mph.

One thing to watch out for with the Clevelands and M's is to make sure if changing distributors that the cam gear is correct. Apparently there are three or four different ones. Yes I found out the hard way. The guy I bought my engine from thought it would be a neat idea to put an electronic ignition on it. He used one from a van that apparently had a later M engine. The distributor fit right into the block but the gears were not the same.

I hope there was at least one thing helpful in this rambling.

Kurt

XR7 Dave
06-14-2005, 07:54 PM
If edelbrock does pop off some aluminum heads for these motors (Australian 2 bbl heads in aluminum are already available, even some 3 valve big bux heads are available) then we may have a whole new ball game for these canted valve small block engines. Twisted wedge heads may not be the only heads with canted valves. I have not looked into the angles for the various heads, but these heads may be better in design than the TW heads. Most all the aftermarket blocks are available with 9.2 deck ht. With a set of aluminum cleveland heads, then we will have a "new" cleveland! Price Motorsports makes numerous adapters for different ford heads and intakes on different ford blocks. The "Clevor" is/was made with cleveland heads on windsor blocks. The reverse can also be done, Windsor style heads on a cleveland style block and can use fuelie intakes! I just do not know if the canted valve heads are inherently better than in-lines. I think so, but you experts are gonna have to tell the rest of us if there is an advantage with canted valve heads for most street applications.
Now, some things you said that I have questions about---again :) 351C/M/400 not 90 deg engines like the 260/289/302/351 ?????? Think I gotta respectfully call you on that one!
Also, never heard the term "Mid block", Never saw it in any material on these engines either. There is some discussion as to whether the "M" stood for Midland or Modified. Most material indicates that "Modified" is correct. Modified means the 351 version, which came after the 400 means this engine is a modified 400 that has a 3.5 stroke crank instead of a 4 in stroke. The 400 does not need a letter designator, because ford only made 1 400 cu. engine---ever! In the ford tech/rebuild mags/articles --yes, 260/289/302/351W-C-M/ 400 are all small blocks! I am amazed that with as much written material about all these engines, some people have not heard of a "small block Ford"---no disrespect intended, but this simply amazes me! But then I may be simple to start with!!
I am enjoying this thread, maybe I can learn something--. I do have a 70 Mach I w/4bbl cleveland that I want to rebuild/restore, so this all interests me----
TX :) YB

I don't think there is a book which specifies which motors are small block or big block. Those are generic terms that have been created to generally catagorize engine sizes. With that in mind I called the M motors a mid block but the M most certainly stands for Modified and it has nothing to do with the displacement. It has to do with the fact that Ford took the Cleveland motor and made the BLOCK bigger and stouter for truck duty, dropping the smaller high rpm friendly main bearings that the old 351 used. It is the same basic motor, but hardly anything is interchangeable hence the "M" designation.

The 351C is most certainly a small block when you consider that it weighs about the same as a SBC. The M series motors are indeed larger and I've had more than one person get confused looking at a 400 and calling it a 460. It's darn near as big to look at. You don't see many 351C's anymore, but if you find one you will see that while it is bigger than a 351W it is not a BIG motor.

As far as the comments about the heads, no Ford V8 heads have in-line valves. The 351C head was one of the first "canted valve" heads. The 385 series motors also have canted valves and our 3.8's slightly canted as well. The 5.0 heads are *almost* inline but they are slightly canted also though not enough to actually call them ''canted". The TFS heads took it a step further on the 5.0, but still nothing new when talking about Cleveland motors. As for aluminum heads, um, maybe you aught to look at a Ford Motorsport catalog. They have always sold aluminum "Cleveland" style heads even from way back in the SVO days. Those are the basic design heads that ran on Bill Elliott's 83 Tbird back when he was untouchable before the start of the restrictor plates in Nascar. In fact he was pretty much the reason there came to be restrictor plates in Nascar. :p

XR7Kurt
06-14-2005, 08:05 PM
Someone once told me the big block small block thing had to do with the bore campared to the stroke. What the defining numbers were I have no idea.
I've also heard the Clevelands referred to as medium blocks. Of course all this was back when I was unsure of the difference between a short block and a long block. :p

Kurt

Jake
06-14-2005, 08:24 PM
Just need the basic differences.
Thanks.
Yep, I think that just about covers the basics :rolleyes: , thanks everyone for all that info!

XR7 Dave
06-14-2005, 11:19 PM
Yep, I think that just about covers the basics :rolleyes: , thanks everyone for all that info! Ya well, if you'd get your car back together we'd have something more interesting to talk about. :p Hey, we were bored, a'right?

Parker Dean
06-15-2005, 01:03 AM
...but the M most certainly stands for Modified...

Pet peeve of mine, could you please cite a reference where FORD defines the M in 351M as "Modified", or as anything for that matter?

Sweet90SC
06-15-2005, 01:29 AM
I'm just tickled pink I got a something correct in a thread where most posted replys made my noodle ache! :p :p :p....Rats! I still got smoke commin out my ears..... :confused:

Sweet90SC
06-15-2005, 01:43 AM
Pet peeve of mine, could you please cite a reference where FORD defines the M in 351M as "Modified", or as anything for that matter?

K, I got no shame in sayin I don't know crap about crap...specially engines...to Jake and Dave this comes as absolutely no shock... :D ....buuuuuuuttttt! I was always told that the "M" stood for Modified Cleveland....and something about when Ford started using the "M" it also went with the FMX tranny instead of the C-6 ..yadda..yadda...yadda......I also know Jake gave us the shut up nod so I'm shuttin up now..... ;)

XR7 Dave
06-15-2005, 09:52 AM
Pet peeve of mine, could you please cite a reference where FORD defines the M in 351M as "Modified", or as anything for that matter?

Best I could find:


The “M”, by the way, does not stand for anything. Ford only used the “M” designation to distinguish it from the 351 W (Windsor) and the now discontinued 351C (Cleveland). The “M” designation has now become know to mean “modified” or “Michigan”, even though the 351M was produced at both the Cleveland foundry and Michigan casting center. I do know that my old Ford Performance book (not a Ford publication) written in 1973 lists it only as a 400 Cleveland. Of course the 351M did not come out until later after the 351C had been discontinued completely and then both the 400 and 351 were known as "M" motors.

Parker Dean
06-15-2005, 08:14 PM
Best I could find:

I do know that my old Ford Performance book (not a Ford publication) written in 1973 lists it only as a 400 Cleveland. Of course the 351M did not come out until later after the 351C had been discontinued completely and then both the 400 and 351 were known as "M" motors.

That was what I expected. However, you never know when new info may come to light, so I figured it was better to ask first.

Now if you really wanna get my teeth grinding, start saying 400M. grrr!:)

yardbird
06-22-2005, 08:31 PM
O.K. Guys, I know some are tired of this subject------I am also tired of constantly seeing so much misinformation about these motors.

I dont claim to be an expert on any motors, however, I do have some experience that I feel is accurate. I chime in occasionaly when I think I know something because I am in debt to those who have such great wealth of information about "Birds" and such that I try to repay with my small contribution. I try not to make B.S. claims that I cannot verify or have not experienced. Having said that, here goes!

As to the designation "M" in 351-----remember, 400, not 400M. As to pet peeves and FORD references, O.K. P.D. :) Please look at the "98" SVO Motorsports catalog, p.101 (no doubt in other catalogs as well, I just happened to drag out this one!) 1st column, 3rd sub-heading. "351M (MODIFIED) AND 400"

Also, from the same SVO catalog, p. 100, please note the heading of the section at the top of the pages. "Small Block V-8 Engines". Note the title of the entire section--again a presumed knowledgeable source-----FORD SVO. The heading reads: "289/302/351W/351C/351M/400".

Not trying to insult or flame anyone, hopefully taken in the spirit intended :) I think it is clear, not because I said so, but because "them bees the fax" per Ford sources. Absolutely, the 351M/400 appear to be "midsize" engines. However, they aint classified as such. Absolutely they appear to be big heavy boat anchors. Again, they aint. Now that you guys know the facts, hows bout giving me a hand the next time you see incorrect info about them. I would appreciate some help! Now go forth and Multiply---errr---race!

YB

XR7Kurt
06-22-2005, 08:53 PM
Okay, now that that is settled, is a 302 really 5.0 liters? :rolleyes:

yardbird
06-22-2005, 09:06 PM
Damn if I know-----got a page number? ;)

YB

BlackbirdSC
06-23-2005, 12:10 AM
BlackbirdSC

As old as these engines are, they are almost not worth the effort of much different opinions.
*** Agree with ya there *** :)

I just do not know if the canted valve heads are inherently better than in-lines. I think so, but you experts are gonna have to tell the rest of us if there is an advantage with canted valve heads for most street applications.

*** The reason a canted valve is better is the airflow/valve shrouding. When an inline valve opens, it comes very close to the cylinder wall shrouding flow around that portion of the valve. (which I kinda doubt Dave's saying a 302 is not inline as the machining spec chart we had listed them at 0 and I think the C or M heads were like 17*). Anyway, with a canted valve head, the valve is actually entering the chamber canted toward the middle of the chamber and AWAY from the cylinder wall, thus unshrouding it for more airflow.
******

Now, some things you said that I have questions about---again :) 351C/M/400 not 90 deg engines like the 260/289/302/351 ?????? Think I gotta respectfully call you on that one!

**** You misunderstood that part. The 260,289,302 and 351 (and 255 and 221 I think) comprise the '90 degree V family' of small blocks. All Ford V8s in this discussion have a 90 degree angle, but that's the name of them, 90 degree V. They also all have been called Windsors to differentiate them from the others. The 351C, 351M and 400 are the 335 series. (which Ford really calls them that in official docs since they're not in the 90 degree V/Windsor family and calling them small blocks confuses everyone into thinking they're the same as the others). The FE family were the first group called big blocks and the 385 family was the last of the big blocks. Now it's just all modular.
****




Make any sense? :p

yardbird
06-23-2005, 08:53 AM
Yea, does! Now that you mention it, I remember reading or seeing somewhere the reference to 221/----302 being classified as a 90 deg small blocks, cant remember where though. I suppose that technically, most all engines (except for Mercury v6 outboards and some others) are 90 deg engines. I see the point about the classification though. I knew about the 335 and 385 series designation and I agree about them being different, even though they may be called small blocks (not the 385!). Quite a bit of mix and match can be done between the W,C,M/400 series. Kinda doubt the need for any of that with all the windsor stuff.

Interesting combo to me is 351M/400 block adapted to alum Windsor heads with adapters for 351W fuel injection. For that matter, alum cleveland heads with adapters for Windsor fuel injection. Long rods, good ratio, decent to great compression and mass air injection, Cleveland cams. What kinda torque you could get out of an engine weighing not much over 500 lbs!

Lotsa stuff about engines is simply a matter of symantics (sp?) Having had experience with 400's I just hate to see the "Heavy, Boat anchor, Slug" titles for these engines. No doubt, I dont know everything about engines, but am willing to be wrong!
YB