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View Full Version : Snow Performance Alcohol injection kits available - Updated 07/13/06



XR7 Dave
06-11-2005, 09:34 AM
SuperCoupes Unlimited Inc. is proud to offer you the MAF referenced Snow Performance alcohol injection kits tailored specifically for the SC.

Preliminary testing has shown that the system will drop air charge temps as much as 30 deg and can offer up to a 40rwhp gain depending on how badly you need it. I have run this system on the street with my car at 19psi and I can tell you that it is absolutely seamless in its performance. To learn a little more about the kit, check out this article in MM&FF.

Snow Performance in MM&FF (http://musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0407mm_snow/)

The big difference between this kit and the one made for the SC is that ours uses an MAF controller instead of a boost controller and incorporates a flow control solenoid so that liquid cannot siphen off during vacuum operation.

As you can see from the article alcohol injection system is even more effective than race fuel and much cheaper although it can be used with race fuel as well.

So what makes this system any better than any other system out there? Certainly Alcohol injection is not a new concept.

Here is the secret! Because the M90 generates full boost as low as 2500rpm, any boost referenced system would command full flow at that rpm. This would flood the motor. Then, if you reduce flow such that it doesn't flood out the motor, then at high rpm you would not have enough flow to do the job.

By referencing MAF voltage, rpm and boost are not taken into account when determining start point or flow rate. Instead, MAF voltage (which is simply airflow) is used to start and regulate the flow of alcohol. How smart is that? This is yet another area where SC's have benefitted from the shirt tails of the Mustang world. It was not until the O3 Cobra came out that the need for this type of system was recognized.

Retail on the system is $439+ $15 = $454 total with shipping and handling (this includes the flow control solenoid). SCCOA price is $420 shipping included.

We have worked with Snow Performance to customize the kit for the SC specifically.

What you get:

A Stage II MAF kit

Minus:

-Tank (can't use it anyhow)

Plus:

-Extra line (basic kit doesn't have enough line in it)
-Bulkhead connector to use with OE washer tank.
-Flow control solenoid with fittings
-Choice of nozzles - 375ml (for stock applications up to 38lb injectors) or 625ml (for high performance applications with 300rwhp and above)

But wait, there's more... :D

If you contact me about the installation I'll provide you with complete installation instructions, tech support AND extra wire, connectors, taps, loom, fuse holder and even a relay if you need one at no extra charge.

Please feel free to post with any questions you may have.

XxSlowpokexX
06-11-2005, 07:09 PM
Is this any different then the one in my Jegs catalog for $379.99?
Details below

860-20011
Gas Boost Cooler Stage-2 with Mass-Air-Flow
Applications: All Gasoline Engines wtih 8-30 PSI of Boost
Includes:
140 PSI High Volume Pump
MAF Variable Controller
2-qt. Reservoir
Check Valve
3 Nozzles (175/375/625 ml/min.)
All electrical parts, fittings and hardware

David Neibert
06-11-2005, 08:19 PM
Dave,

Now that I'm in on this buy...I'd like to know what all is included in the kit. Do you have a link that shows everything that comes with it ?

David

XR7 Dave
06-11-2005, 11:23 PM
Yes this kit is different. The check valve on the Jegs kit will not stop siphoning under vacuum which means it won't work on our cars. This kit includes a solenoid which positively stops all flow when not spraying. Other than that it is the same.

You get:

- 2 qt reservoir with mounting tabs and screws.
- Quick disconnect fittings and about 6' of hose.
- Fitting to tap existing WW tank if desired.
- 140psi pump, mounting screws included.
- Positive stop flow solenoid.
- Nozzle holder
- 2 nozzles, 375/625 ml/min
- 1/8" NPT tap for nozzle
- MAF controller
- Wires and harness
- LED light
- instructions

As soon as I download the pics of my installation I'll post them. (Tomorrow).

{edit} Just so everyone knows I talked to Snow today and you will only be getting 2 nozzles instead of three. The info on the Jegs add is incorrect. For under 350rwhp applications you will get the two smaller nozzles and for 350+rwhp applications you will get the two larger ones. Honestly, you are only going to use the one middle one for 90% of all applications anyway (that's what I'm using).

David Neibert
06-11-2005, 11:54 PM
Thanks Dave..that anti siphon solenoid is what I really wanted to know about.

David

XxSlowpokexX
06-12-2005, 05:25 AM
They reccomend the solenoid upgrade if running nozzle after throttle body pr below the resevoir

XR7 Dave
06-12-2005, 10:33 AM
They reccomend the solenoid upgrade if running nozzle after throttle body pr below the resevoir Correct, the solenoid is a $40 part which is absolutely necessary in our application. I already tried it with the one-way valve included in the other kit and it siphoned the entire tank out in about 5 minutes of running. ;)

Randy N Connie
06-12-2005, 04:19 PM
can the system be turned on at 1.5 volts and shut off at any point.
Thanks
RANDY

pablon2
06-12-2005, 08:24 PM
1.) How long (how much use) before the reservoir runs out?

2.) In which situations would the injection be used? (such as running the 1/4 mile or all the time?) Is it an on/off thing like nitrous? I briefly read some info in the link you provided David so I think it is an off/on component.

3.) After install, does one need to have substantial tuning in order to make everything work together?

SCgraphics guy
06-13-2005, 01:19 AM
Dave, you have mail.

Peterdroy66
06-13-2005, 09:55 AM
Dave
My thinking is that instead of paying a ripoff premium fuel price (here 91 is 11 c/litre more than 87, let alone 94.5 which is 15c/litre) I could use an injection system like this to add the "ocatane" (in this case alcohol or tolulene) only when it is really required under load and use 87 regular as my fuel.
This might be a whole new way to sell such systems, not just for the extreme adding power, but to allow 87 fuel etc
This is on my TO DO list, but kind of far down.
What do you think?
Pete Roy
Toronto

Micahdogg
06-13-2005, 01:02 PM
Snow was selling kits for $379 at WFC. I asked if they could "hook me up" with a kit for testing and they said $350. I don't think it came with a solenoid though, but maybe this info would be useful to you.

Micah

Kurt K
06-13-2005, 04:00 PM
Snow was selling kits for $379 at WFC. I asked if they could "hook me up" with a kit for testing and they said $350. I don't think it came with a solenoid though, but maybe this info would be useful to you.

MicahI thought the WFC "show special" was $399, although it didn't come with the solenoid. Of course, the "testing" price would have saved you a little money.

I think the $425, shipped price is right in between the above examples and is still a good deal.

And yes, mine is on the way :) I might even order 2, so I can have a spare :D

Micahdogg
06-13-2005, 04:18 PM
YOu are right Kurt. I think the testing price was $379, not $350. I'm not trying to bag on Dave's pricing, but I thought he may want to know what they were going for at WFC. And I do know for a fact that it did not include the solenoid.

Micah

Jake
06-13-2005, 04:44 PM
1.) How long (how much use) before the reservoir runs out?

2.) In which situations would the injection be used? (such as running the 1/4 mile or all the time?) Is it an on/off thing like nitrous? I briefly read some info in the link you provided David so I think it is an off/on component.

3.) After install, does one need to have substantial tuning in order to make everything work together?
Dave, I'm also interested about the chip reburn. Since I'll be sending this one back for a reburn maybe I should buy one now and get the chip part out of the way.

XR7 Dave
06-13-2005, 05:06 PM
can the system be turned on at 1.5 volts and shut off at any point.
Thanks
RANDY

The system does not have the built in ability to be shut off at any point above it's turn on point. So it can be turned on at 1.5v but it would have to be turned off manually.

XR7 Dave
06-13-2005, 05:39 PM
Dave
My thinking is that instead of paying a ripoff premium fuel price (here 91 is 11 c/litre more than 87, let alone 94.5 which is 15c/litre) I could use an injection system like this to add the "ocatane" (in this case alcohol or tolulene) only when it is really required under load and use 87 regular as my fuel.
This might be a whole new way to sell such systems, not just for the extreme adding power, but to allow 87 fuel etc
This is on my TO DO list, but kind of far down.
What do you think?
Pete Roy
Toronto

Certainly that is one possible use for the system.

XR7 Dave
06-13-2005, 06:44 PM
1.) How long (how much use) before the reservoir runs out? Depending on how you use it, 2 qts should last 1-2 tanks of gas. It's all about how much you use boost though, as it does not activate at all under normal operation.


2.) In which situations would the injection be used? (such as running the 1/4 mile or all the time?) Is it an on/off thing like nitrous? I briefly read some info in the link you provided David so I think it is an off/on component. It activates automatically at whatever load setting you choose. The recommended would be about 5-7psi boost.


3.) After install, does one need to have substantial tuning in order to make everything work together?It doesn't require tuning to work but the full benefit will be realized with some tuning in most cases.

Jake
06-13-2005, 07:02 PM
Depending on how you use it, 2 qts should last 1-2 tanks of gas. It's all about how much you use boost though, as it does not activate at all under normal operation. It activates automatically at whatever load setting you choose. The recommended would be about 5-7psi boost.It doesn't require tuning to work but the full benefit will be realized with some tuning in most cases.
Is that 5-7 boost with an M90 and an AR?

XR7 Dave
06-13-2005, 07:43 PM
Is that 5-7 boost with an M90 and an AR? Either way. You definitely need this kit. The AR and this thing go so hand-in-hand it's ridiculous.

Jake
06-13-2005, 07:50 PM
Either way. You definitely need this kit. The AR and this thing go so hand-in-hand it's ridiculous.
well then keep an eye out for my e-mail. I can't let Kurt K steal my title away from me down here.

XR7 Dave
06-13-2005, 10:20 PM
Here are some pictures of the kit installed in my car. I have not included a pic on the nozzle because I -ah- didn't read the directions carefully and installed it not in accordance with said instructions. So to avoid showing you how NOT to do it, I have left that one out. ;)

http://members.tccoa.com/xr7dave/DSC05019a.jpg

http://members.tccoa.com/xr7dave/DSC05020a.jpg

http://members.tccoa.com/xr7dave/DSC05061a.jpg

I mounted the controller vertically so that if any water did get into it, it would have a better chance of draining out, and also I plan to put some clear tape over the control dials after I have it dialed in. The controller is fairly water resistant but it is supposed to be mounted away from sources of water.

I also used a relay to power the unit. They don't include a relay, but I with the high current draw of the pump, I didn't want to pull from another circuit. I tapped the DTRL connector for key switch power (purple/orange wire I believe) and ran that to trigger a relay which is connected directly to the solenoid for main power.

The solenoid and the LED indicator are both connected to the pump 12v input wire. Very simple stuff. Then only one wire is run into the car for the LED and you just ground that to the dash somewhere.

All hoses are quick disconnect push/plug connectors. I used a little teflon pipe dope on all the NPT connections to ensure a good seal without over tightening. I was very pleased with the ease of installation of the kit. It's all well thought out and employs quality parts IMO.

:)

Kurt K
06-13-2005, 10:31 PM
Looks good. Also, looks like I'm going to have a challenge, since I can't mount anything (except maybe the reservoir) where you've mounted it. I think the removal of my front bumper cover is in my future.

Micahdogg
06-14-2005, 10:41 AM
Is it possible to mount the controller inside the car and not under the hood. I mounted the "brain" for my electric fuel pressure gauge under the hood, it got wet, it broke. Just passing that along for what it's worth.

Micah

XR7 Dave
06-14-2005, 06:14 PM
Is it possible to mount the controller inside the car and not under the hood. I mounted the "brain" for my electric fuel pressure gauge under the hood, it got wet, it broke. Just passing that along for what it's worth.

Micah You can mount it where ever you want. I thought about mounting it inside, but I decided that it is pretty well sealed except for the dial windows and I plan to seal those myself.

David Neibert
06-16-2005, 02:44 PM
Dave,

I'm a little confused on the MAF voltage vs Boost thing. Are you saying that the MAF voltage will always corespond to a specific boost level ? Are there any high rpms situations that would cause the MAF voltage to increase enough to trigger the system without actually being into boost ?

I always thought the the amount of air flowing thru the mass air meter was more a function of engine RPMs and not neccesarily the load. I assumed that load was calculated by the computer using tables based on MAF voltage vs. TPS voltage vs Engine rpms.

David

Micahdogg
06-16-2005, 03:00 PM
Dave, the kit Snow was selling at WFC used a different box that you actually ran a vacuum line into. That box would allow you to controll two stages of misting and had two dials. One sets boost at low misting and other sets boost at high misting.

This is a different module that reads voltage from the MAF. I'm sure it does coorespond (for the most part) with a certain amount of boost because how can you have the airflow required for say 8 psi without being at 8 psi.

edited after re-reading.

Micah

pablon2
06-16-2005, 03:17 PM
Retail on the system is $439+ shipping. SCCOA price for the first 5 people who sign up is $425 shipping included. To be on this list please email me using the link at the bottom of this post.


David, you have mail.

pablon2
06-16-2005, 08:51 PM
After reading more about this, it sounds like a good idea to have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. I am glad I have one in case it is needed come tune time.

XxSlowpokexX
06-17-2005, 01:16 PM
You can actually hurt performance using this kit without having your car properly tuned. SO to bolt on this kit and go really isnt where the gains are comming from.

I think the main questions are how does the MAF voltage know what boost we are at?(It doesnt correct?) And why is using the MAF voltage better then using boost for reference.

Grand nationals have been successufully using boost to activate thier methanol systems for years and a basic methanol type system such as the snow can be built at home. Even the Maf applied switch can be easily duplicated. So what are the real advantages to this kit? It aint cheap

XR7 Dave
06-17-2005, 03:00 PM
You can actually hurt performance using this kit without having your car properly tuned. SO to bolt on this kit and go really isnt where the gains are comming from.

I think the main questions are how does the MAF voltage know what boost we are at?(It doesnt correct?) And why is using the MAF voltage better then using boost for reference.

Grand nationals have been successufully using boost to activate thier methanol systems for years and a basic methanol type system such as the snow can be built at home. Even the Maf applied switch can be easily duplicated. So what are the real advantages to this kit? It aint cheap

The advantage of this kit lies in the fact that we can achieve full boost at 2000rpm, but we can't handle full spray at that rpm. This is what Todd Jelle found with his older system. They tuned his on the dyno at Coy's and got a good HP gain from it. However, on the car and at the track it caused the car to bog badly off the line. Then if you have an adjustable system like the SMC system which is very popular with the GN guys, you can turn it down, but then you don't have enough at high rpm.

This system looks only at airflow and starts the spray of 50% at whatever MAF voltage you pick, and then ramps up to 100% spray at another MAF point which you also pick. So, bottom line is that it a) doesn't know what boost you are at, and b) doesn't care what boost you are at.

If you log MAF voltages you would realize that while MAF readings are not directly tied to boost, but rather it is a function of rpm and boost together. You will not reach a high enough MAF value to trigger the system unless you are under plenty of load to warrant the use of a/w. The system targets a certain % of total airflow so you never end up with too much. That is the key.

As for price, I think that if you sourced the SS nozzles, 160psi pump, solenoid, and parts you will find that you won't do it for a whole lot less than their base kit, but then you would still have to figure out how to ramp up pump pressure as a function of MAF voltage. Not the easiest thing in the world for the average SC owner.

As with any product, if only we had the time etc, etc., we could do darn near anything ourselves. Problem is we'd get old and die before we ever finished anything. When I consider how much time and money we have spent on other things for our cars, this is such a bargain that it is ridiculous.

I absolutely feel that this kit provides an EXCELLENT upgrade with no tuning required.

1) Most SC's are lean after some mods. This can only be helped with added fuel and higher octane.

2) Most SC's with some mods make more boost than stock which means they already have too much timing. Some processors have as much as 29 deg base timing. My first pull with my car was with 23 deg timing and I ended up with 30 deg. Not far at all above stock!

3) Most all SC's are pulling timing on the top end due to excessive ACT's (this kit will drop them about 20-40 deg!)

4) Dyno testing has shown that almost all SC's with any modifications are experiencing detonation. Did I mention 120 octane?

The fact is that I did not lean out the car when I did testing. All I did was increase timing 2 deg over stock. My car saw 11.5 AF WITH the a/w injection, 11.8-12.0 without it. I could have leaned it out a whole point to 12.5 and possibly picked up more HP. I also could have used a 50/50 mix of methanol and water instead of just WW fluid....

I think even more gains will be had than what I have shown so far. I have been very conservative with my testing (as usual btw).

:)

SCgraphics guy
06-17-2005, 08:49 PM
Dave may have explained this differently but, the Idea I have from how my system worked, it wasn't easy to tune for different Altitudes or other variables.
It might be tuned fine for a one day use but given different variables on a different day at a different corrected elevation it could kill performance.
As for the GN guys they(turbos) spool up boost therefore its easier to tune it for different variables. Some test runs on the dyno or track are needed to assure correct amounts and timing of spray, you have agreater chance of getting it right.
As for Supercharged cars when we go WOT we get 60-80% of our boost all at once then it increases with rpm, so you may get the spray right at a given rpm /boost but too much or too little everywhere else, thus killing overall performance. his is because the older systems just spray a predetermined amount of spray at a & above a given boost reference.(NO CONTROL)
Its much easier to use a basic alky setup on a turbo car, since you can almost depend on a progressive boost rate that continues to increase with rpm. If you've ever seen the GN type spray setups, most have a control for amount of spray, and one for when it starts spraying.
I for one think this maybe the best idea yet for a supercharged car. time & testing will tell.

XR7 Dave
06-18-2005, 10:47 PM
On a cool night, with the alcohol turned up a little bit, the car is insane.

:eek:

That's all I have to say about that.

victor malvar
06-22-2005, 12:34 AM
Hi Dave, O.K. This previos reply above thin one now.I'm wrting what he say's, I wonder if you have checked this out. This is the kit. as you describe it. One thing 2 nozzels not 3 I would prefer the larger nozzels. May want to go with 2 sets. Complete) I looked at some things myself but I'm Riding this train. (Group) Good talking with you.

You get:

- 2 qt reservoir with mounting tabs and screws.
- Quick disconnect fittings and about 6' of hose.
- Fitting to tap existing WW tank if desired.
- 140psi pump, mounting screws included.
- Positive stop flow solenoid.
- Nozzle holder
- 3 -1= 2 larger nozzles, 175/375/625 ml/min larger.
- 1/8" NPT tap for nozzle
- MAF controller
- Wires and harness
- LED light
- instructions

As soon as I download the pics of my installation I'll post them. (Tomorrow).

{edit} Just so everyone knows I talked to Snow today and you will only be getting 2 nozzles instead of three. The info on the Jegs add is incorrect. For under 350rwhp applications you will get the two smaller nozzles and for 350+rwhp applications you will get the two larger ones. Honestly, you are only going to use the one middle one for 90% of all applications anyway (that's what I'm using).

Thanks,
Take it easy! I'll update you on tuning for the 30th.
Victor.....

sizemoremk
06-22-2005, 01:59 AM
So am I to undersand that with this snow kit, one could safely overdrive the blower 15% so long as the resevoir isn;t run dry?

XR7 Dave
06-22-2005, 10:15 AM
I am not going to tell you that anything is safe, but I will tell you that I'd not have any reservations doing it myself. I run 20psi in my motor (stock pistons and felpro gaskets).

pablon2
06-22-2005, 10:36 AM
I am not going to tell you that anything is safe, but I will tell you that I'd not have any reservations doing it myself. I run 20psi in my motor (stock pistons and felpro gaskets).


David,

Were you thinking these units would ship today or this week anyhow?

sizemoremk
06-22-2005, 10:50 AM
I am not going to tell you that anything is safe, but I will tell you that I'd not have any reservations doing it myself. I run 20psi in my motor (stock pistons and felpro gaskets).


I knew you're running 20 in your test, but wth AR... I was just curious if running 15 around town, semi-daily driving, would be safe to OD 15% on a stockish blower using the snow kit.

I will definately have to fid some more $$$$ to sneak one in for the the build!

victor malvar
06-22-2005, 11:43 AM
Hi Dave same question as sizemoremk

So am I to understand that with this snow kit, one could safely overdrive the blower 15% so long as the resevoir isn;t run dry?
__________________
How about this 15% 20% what do you feel is a safe or reasonable overdrive?

I have to run out I'll catch you later!..............,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.. ................

SCaddict
06-22-2005, 03:33 PM
I am overdriving my blower 15% and I drive the car all the time. I am running a stock intercooler and have not had any issues. I do however have one of these kits on the way. :D

David Neibert
06-22-2005, 06:21 PM
Every car is different...Dave can't tell you guys what overdrive percentage or amount of boost is safe. I run mine at 23% overdrive and peg the gauge every time I hit the throttle, and I think it's safe.

It stands to reason that your car will tolerate more boost or more timing or both than it will without the alky injection. How much is going to vary car to car.

David

PS: Dave, thanks for explaining the MAF voltage vs Boost controller.

victor malvar
06-22-2005, 09:59 PM
I'm fine with that aswer David N. made, I'm having a lot of people asking me what I think about it. (SNOW) I'm going with it and that I feel it's a good way to go. I have no fear with what I'm building or even with the 1990 Black Sons Car Dave tuned and It tuned real well, I want try one on it. The block is stock, The upper engine is pretty moded, so i'm thinking going with two kits. Thanks for all the assurance. David, its a good timing for this! The Alkie experience. Thanks for the Info...I was thinking of dual selenoids timed what do you think....
TTYLater
Victor.....

XR7 Dave
06-23-2005, 12:09 AM
I am overdriving my blower 15% and I drive the car all the time. I am running a stock intercooler and have not had any issues. I do however have one of these kits on the way. :D

Actually, I think I recall you complaining about a lot of detonation. ;)

To those who asked, you should be receiving your kits either Friday or Monday. Thanks!

SCaddict
06-23-2005, 12:42 AM
Actually, I think I recall you complaining about a lot of detonation. ;)

To those who asked, you should be receiving your kits either Friday or Monday. Thanks!
I was having a huge problem with that until I figured out I was actually getting bad gas. I switched stations and all seems fine.

Blue89SC
06-24-2005, 10:42 AM
question-

well this may have been answered already...

With my current modifications i still have the stock fuel pump and injectors... my plans were to purchase the 55-75 hp zex kit but that obviously means i will need to do the fuel pump and injectors upgrade... If i use this kit instead of nitrous can i safely run my current modifcations w/o the fuel pump and injectors?? My boost is right around 14psi at WOT...could i add a 5% jackshaft pulley and still have a safe amount of boost with the snow kit???

i know i will have to upgrade by pump and injectors to go any further but i just wanted to hit 13s this summer..

XR7 Dave
06-27-2005, 09:21 AM
question-

well this may have been answered already...

With my current modifications i still have the stock fuel pump and injectors... my plans were to purchase the 55-75 hp zex kit but that obviously means i will need to do the fuel pump and injectors upgrade... If i use this kit instead of nitrous can i safely run my current modifcations w/o the fuel pump and injectors?? My boost is right around 14psi at WOT...could i add a 5% jackshaft pulley and still have a safe amount of boost with the snow kit???

i know i will have to upgrade by pump and injectors to go any further but i just wanted to hit 13s this summer.. Sorry, can't answer that. The Snow kit will increase your safety margin by causing the car to run slightly richer. However, if you are close to the limit on your injectors then running higher rpms is going to make that condition worse.

To really run a lot faster you need to get bigger injectors, fuel pump, and a tune. The Snow system is icing on the cake not a bandaide.

pablon2
06-27-2005, 09:32 AM
However, if you are close to the limit on your injectors then running higher rpms is going to make that condition worse. To really run a lot faster you need to get bigger injectors, fuel pump, and a tune.

Not to sidetrack this thread, but I have 42lb injectors. What is my HP limit on these? My understanding is that they are good for 400 rwhp.

XR7 Dave
06-27-2005, 12:17 PM
Not to sidetrack this thread, but I have 42lb injectors. What is my HP limit on these? My understanding is that they are good for 400 rwhp. On your AOD I'd put that more like 330-350rwhp depending on rpm. They are not good for 400rwhp on anybody's car. If you want to make 400 you should be looking at 60's.

pablon2
06-27-2005, 12:32 PM
On your AOD I'd put that more like 330-350rwhp depending on rpm. They are not good for 400rwhp on anybody's car. If you want to make 400 you should be looking at 60's.

Hmmm, so with heads, cam, and Snow Perf, I bet I'll be maxing out my 42s. Will it be real clear on the dyno during the tune if I am running outta injector?

XR7 Dave
06-27-2005, 01:56 PM
Hmmm, so with heads, cam, and Snow Perf, I bet I'll be maxing out my 42s. Will it be real clear on the dyno during the tune if I am running outta injector? Yes it will be apparent.

pablon2
06-28-2005, 09:46 AM
On your AOD I'd put that more like 330-350rwhp depending on rpm. They are not good for 400rwhp on anybody's car. If you want to make 400 you should be looking at 60's.

What size (60s) and where can I get them? Is there anything special I have to do with these injectors if the car has already been tuned for 42s? The 76mm MAF has a purple tube for 42s. Maybe we can take this offline David?

Randy N Connie
06-28-2005, 10:51 AM
What size (60s) and where can I get them? Is there anything special I have to do with these injectors if the car has already been tuned for 42s? The 76mm MAF has a purple tube for 42s. Maybe we can take this offline David?

It sounds like you have a C&L MAF,same as me.
I was told that there is no sample tube for the
#60 injectors.It was stated to me that you can
go to #50 injectors.

I have bought & built some mods.And I feel I will need
to go to #60 or larger injectors.So I will need to buy
another type MAF to use my mods.But I do not want
to buy or use a black plastic MAF housing ,on my new
motor.The reason,I am building more for show than go.
But I would like to race maybe one or two passes a year.

I have not takin the time to see what aluminum MAF are
avalible to use. That will work great with #60 and up
injectors.

Thanks RANDY

Thanks RANDY

pablon2
06-28-2005, 11:03 AM
It sounds like you have a C&L MAF,same as me.
I was told that there is no sample tube for the
#60 injectors.It was stated to me that you can
go to #50 injectors.

I have bought & built some mods.And I feel I will need
to go to #60 or larger injectors.So I will need to buy
another type MAF to use my mods.But I do not want
to buy or use a black plastic MAF housing ,on my new
motor.The reason,I am building more for show than go.
But I would like to race maybe one or two passes a year.

I have not takin the time to see what aluminum MAF are
avalible to use. That will work great with #60 and up
injectors.

Thanks RANDY

Thanks RANDY

Ummm, you are thinking about installing 60 pounders, but you are building more for 'show' than 'go'? ;)

P.S. How about the Lightning MAF with a chip burn/retune?

pablon2
07-02-2005, 12:06 PM
I just ordered Snow's fluid level LED indicator as an upgrade. It is $39.95 + $15 shipping/handling. :eek: It comes installed in another reservoir. Not sure why they couldn't just include the sensor and let me put it in the one that came with the kit??? Maybe I'll see if I can somehow fuse them together and have a gallon reservoir? Or I'll just sell the extra. Either way, I'll now have a little more confidence when on longer trips. I'll know when it is getting low and not have to play the guessing game. (i.e., hmmm, do I have enough left to punch it around this corner or will she buck?) :rolleyes:

Kurt K
07-02-2005, 02:50 PM
I just ordered Snow's fluid level LED indicator as an upgrade. It is $39.95 + $15 shipping/handling. :eek: It comes installed in another reservoir. Not sure why they couldn't just include the sensor and let me put it in the one that came with the kit??? Maybe I'll see if I can somehow fuse them together and have a gallon reservoir? Or I'll just sell the extra. Either way, I'll now have a little more confidence when on longer trips. I'll know when it is getting low and not have to play the guessing game. (i.e., hmmm, do I have enough left to punch it around this corner or will she buck?) :rolleyes:Hmmm, my level indicator upgrade came as a separate sensor :confused: As it turns out, I do have room under my hood for the tank so I've already purchased a late-model washer reservoir w/ level switch that I plan on using. Guess I should have thought of this route before spending extra on the level switch option :rolleyes:

I might try to start installing the kit this weekend if I can get brakes put on my truck first.

supercatxr7
07-02-2005, 09:17 PM
Got my kit in and set up. Easy to put in, longest part is the wiring if you want to make things look nice. I mounted the MAF controller in the center console. I should hopefully have some interesting data soon as my car at the moment is non-intercooled and only using the Snow kit.

pablon2
07-02-2005, 09:50 PM
Got my kit in and set up. Easy to put in, longest part is the wiring if you want to make things look nice. I mounted the MAF controller in the center console. I should hopefully have some interesting data soon as my car at the moment is non-intercooled and only using the Snow kit.


Did you install the MAF controller in the hatch area of the console where the cassette tape holder is? Or by the radio? Got a pic? Sounds like it is in view? Was that on purpose? I guess you can say I am curious.

supercatxr7
07-03-2005, 12:05 AM
Did you install the MAF controller in the hatch area of the console where the cassette tape holder is? Or by the radio? Got a pic? Sounds like it is in view? Was that on purpose? I guess you can say I am curious.

No, not there. I mounted it in the center console arm rest storage compartment area. It is mounted vertically to the very back of the storage area.

Kurt K
07-03-2005, 12:34 PM
No, not there. I mounted it in the center console arm rest storage compartment area. It is mounted vertically to the very back of the storage area.I'll either be mounting my MAF controller there or in the glovebox (since I should have to be constantly tweaking on it). Where'd you mount the reservoir, or did you just tap into the existing wiper reservoir? Also, did you special wire to extend the controller wiring?

supercatxr7
07-03-2005, 03:13 PM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/supercatxr7/DSC08180.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/supercatxr7/DSC08182.jpg

XxSlowpokexX
07-04-2005, 06:02 PM
Paul being the kit will be adding octaine and lowering air charge temp in reality you will not need larger injectors due to extra HP made from adding a methanol kit even if it involves a retune with more timing. With the heads and cam maybe. You can think of a methanol kit as a cheap way to add fuel and octaine when needed most..You can use a stronger mix then what Dave is using as well. However you will need to tune for that

victor malvar
07-06-2005, 12:54 AM
I have spoken to a few people and what they seem to be saying is the problems at diffrent elevations.
For Instsance... Florida is in some places elevation is 6' MSL (Mean Sea Level) Now as I travel toward Carlisle, pa. or Ocklahome the Elevation or the MSL will change at varios points along the way. So from 6' MLS to 1000' MLS the air is thinner and also not as dence milehigh in Denver a good 1/4 mile is 14 seconds +. would that not mean that the tunning would have to be adjusted for the snow, kit. I spoke with Snow and It seems that we will need to re-tune our cars pretty often... David a while back you did not think this was a good system you maynot remember but you did not like this system... What has changed your mind now. I'm very interested in this system but I'm getting a little skeptical because we have enough issues with the SC specially the more we add to it's present set up. I know everytime I change one thing I need to change two others...I thought of using it with dual selenoids but that must have been a stupid question lol, you nor anyone responded, but I was thinking Nitrous not Snow. Could you explain or shed some light for me/us on the MLS and the way the Map sensor will adjust to diffrent altitudes, Also will the eec or the DIS compansate for all this :confused: I'm no expert but I know we have to set our altimeters on our planes to make sure that the altimeter will keep us right on when landing at diffrent altitudes also if you have ever taken off in thin air verses dense air things take a totally diffrent adjusting with the rich and lean cockpit settings!also a much longer runway or a short runway depending on the air density and teperatures. :eek:
Damon kind of explains it but I do not get the same answers from the people who make the Snow here and in England. It seem to me that it would be more of a racing type application just like nitrous but safer.
Thanks for your time...
Victor.........

XR7 Dave
07-06-2005, 10:59 AM
I think I'll just continue to post results. Those who are interested can try it themselves. I'm not about to go on trial for a product that I found to be effective on my car.

I continue to enjoy 400+ rwhp and those at the Midwest Bash got to witness first hand how my car beat a 395rwhp Mark VIII by over .75 sec and 10mph on a hot day and how my car made 435rwhp and climbing on the dyno in the 90 deg heat. John Force doesn't spend his days off explaining how to run 4 sec 1/4 mile times, if you dont' get it then you just don't get it. :)

My car is a moving display of how to put together a 12 second MN12 and drive it daily. I drove it 450 miles to the Midwest Bash, bolted on the slicks, ran 5 low 12 second passes and then drove home. I feel that the Snow Performance kit was a big contributor in my being able to do that. My emphasis has been and always will be street performance. Honestly if you want a race only car then why mess with alcohol injection? Run race fuel and nitrous, its more effective. :cool:

SCgraphics guy
07-06-2005, 11:54 AM
I have to say, Victor's concerns with this setup are what are holding me back.
I have no doubt the system works, but just how can our cars compensate enough with extreme altitude changes.
I know from experience, running everwhere from 5,800ft(Denver) to St. Louis(800ft),that our cars when modified seem to have a tough time compensating for altitude changes (detonation occurs) even when you don't expect it.
I've run in Denver when corrected altitude is over 10,000 ft & my 340rwhp SC will only run 13.9-14.2 ETs, whereas it will run 12s at sea level.
As a means of comparison at all ford day (Denver) 2 weeks ago 05 GT mustangs were only turning 15.5- 15.7.
It seems as though this is just going to be one more thing that potentialy needs to be re-tuned everytime I change 1000ft in altitude, or It will possibly hurt rather than help performance.
Also as for the Shootout, if we can't tune before our dyno run how can a high elevation car possibly compete with someone who has a low elevation tune working for them?

XxSlowpokexX
07-06-2005, 01:00 PM
David a while back you did not think this was a good system you maynot remember but you did not like this system... What has changed your mind now From Victor


I think I'll just continue to post results. Those who are interested can try it themselves. I'm not about to go on trial for a product that I found to be effective on my car. From Dave

Dave,

I think you very much do have to go on trial for a product you found have found worked for your car. After all you are selling it and pushing it as a performance enhancer. If Todd has a question as to elevation and the effectiveness in a car that will be going from high to low elevation he has every right as a potential customer for an explanation. All you need to do is explain why this kit would or would not be good for him and the theory behind your answer. This same answer would apply to anyone else asking this same question.

I also remeber you saying a methanol kit was a bad idea. I say just admit you were wrong. We all make misinformed decisions. It looks much worse (at least to me anyway) when I see somone constantly changing thier opinions on something as they get better informed...Without addressing their prior misinformation. A good way to start would be...I didnt have enough information on the product, never worked with it before and therefore made a poorly informed decision in the past regarding its capabilities. Then you would redeem yourself by saying why it is a great product and in what cases it would be a good or bad idea to use. It would then be up to the consumer to believe your sincerity or to think you are just trying to make a quick buck (which isnt what I believe by the way) Noone is born knowing everything..

Back in the 60's there was a car straight outta Buick that had an all aluminum v8 and alcohol injection from the factory. Needless to say they ran great...When properly maintained. (My grandfather owned one) Unfortunately they started blowing up left and right. They didnt respond well to no alcohol...Which leads too.....

A snow kit or any other methanol injection kit is not a simple bolt on when going for performance. If you are tuning your car for use with the alcohol...You need it all the time. without it and you will blow something up under the same EEC parameters tuned with the extra fuel and octane the kit will give you. Also to answer Todds question there is no way the kit will know what elevation you are at..Even with the MAF package. I would suspect you would have the same problems if not worse when changing altitudes with the addition of an Alchy kit.

So in the end being Dave is selling this kit we have every right as potential consumers to get educated information regarding its uses. Dave can choose not to but its bad buissness. And as far as I can tell it is a buissness, no?

007_SuperCoupe
07-06-2005, 01:17 PM
From Dave

Dave,
I also remeber you saying a methanol kit was a bad idea. I say just admit you were wrong. We all make misinformed decisions. It looks much worse (at least to me anyway) when I see somone constantly changing thier opinions on something as they get better informed...Without addressing their prior misinformation. A good way to start would be...I didnt have enough information on the product, never worked with it before and therefore made a poorly informed decision in the past regarding its capabilities. Then you would redeem yourself by saying why it is a great product and in what cases it would be a good or bad idea to use. It would then be up to the consumer to believe your sincerity or to think you are just trying to make a quick buck (which isnt what I believe by the way) Noone is born knowing everything..



I've been following this for some time and want to chime in here.

No addressing the point that "Dave was wrong." I personally don't believe this to be the case. The kits he was referring to in the past delivered the alcohol as direct correlation to boost. That has been shown not to be effective in our precious SC. This kit delivers the alcohol as related to the MAF function. Apples and Oranges. I don't believe that Dave ever really meant that methanol injection was not good, but that the kits available at the time would not be effective on the SC. And I believe that he has addressed this in the threads relating to this kit.

Then as to the altitude question...Mere speculation here, but with the kit being dependent upon the MAF function...thinner air = less voltage on the MAF, right? So doesn't it stand to reason that thicker air would have a higher voltage? I'm sure that Todd doesn't build as much boost in Dever as he would somewhere in FL. Now there would be some fine tuning required to get optimal performance, but you're going to need that depending on humidity, temp, elevation, etc anyway if you're going for everything. Just some thoughts. I'm just looking at it all from a layman's point of view. I just thing some of this is getting over complicated.

SCgraphics guy
07-06-2005, 02:08 PM
I was in no way knocking Dave or said product, just giving my idea that these cars are already hard to tune with altitude variations. They actualy have limits the stock motor/electronics can deal with so when modified it only makes things worse.
So to add an alky system MAY just make the car more difficult & time consuming to tune for alt variations.
I believe in this system, I just have questions of its usefullness for me to use at an event where I'd have to re-tune (in short notice)to see its potential.

Micahdogg
07-06-2005, 02:36 PM
My consensus all along was that alcohol injection, CO2 sprayers, Nitrous oxide, are all temporary track only power adders. They aren't there all the time like a supercharger, turbocharger or stroker/head cam upgrade. Instead they rely on gases or liquids that need to be replenished. Therefore, right off the bat I threw this SNOW kit into a track only catagory.

It seems to me that the best way to use the kit would be with a flip or switchable chip. Kind of like how David Neibert uses his Nitrous. He has one file he runs on the street with, then flips his chip to the "nitrous file" and arms his system. I think the alcohol injection kit could be used in the same manner.

If you want to play around on the street, I don't know if a big alcohol reservoir would last longer than one or two big tanks of nitrous?

All I have to say is that when Kurt bolts his kit on and rips off an 11 at the track....I'll probably forget about ever trying to get close to his times again.

Micah

XR7 Dave
07-06-2005, 03:24 PM
If anyone has misinterpreted my enthusiasm for a product which I have found to work on my car and I believe will work on other people's cars as "pushing" a product, then that is entirely your own doing. I have been and continue to be 100% open and honest about this and anything else I do to my car. Nothing more, nothing less.

Regarding claims that I have bashed the Snow or other alcohol systems in the past, I challenge anyone to back that up with any kind of fact. I will NOT make any excuses for my comments and I have NOT changed my opinions!

From a post in 2003 discussing fuel octane and detonation:


I would run 93. Before I tuned my car with the EEC tuner, I was having issues with detonation due to having removed the EGR. I was running a stock blower with a 10% pulley getting about 13 psi. I found that changing to Autolite 103 plugs gapped at .045" cured that detonation.

Then I went to an EEC tuner and started to increase timing. I found I got more power running up to 30 deg total timing. 31 degrees will detonate even with the colder plugs. On the advice of Brian H and a number of other people who have experience in this I backed the timing down to 28 degrees for pump gas but the car slowed down noticably at the track.

With the car at 31 degrees I noticed that the car was detonating again, and the addition of a 25-40% mixture of 107 octane stopped it but the car really wasn't any faster. Currently I run 26 at torque peak and 30 degrees at hp peak. I am running about 15psi on a 5% OD and it seems ok ( I run stock pistons etc). However, others who are running the stock spark plugs would disagree.

I believe that one of us was running up to 33 degrees with race fuel but it resulted in a melted piston. I don't think that race fuel really allows for that much more timing that it warrants it's use.

I think that spark plug selection is crucial to avoiding detonation in a competition motor. The 103's that I run are short tip and colder heat range than stock. It made a noticable difference in my car.

I guess my point is that we don't really run enough boost to warrant race fuel with the tune that the EEC has, and to retune the EEC to benefit from the race fuel significantly is not really worth it. People who have tried alcohol injection have had similar results.

Another thing to think about is that race fuel has different burning characteristics which results in a different a/f ratio. With the adaptive nature of the EEC, if you switch back and forth between the two you could end up running really lean at one point. Not sure if anyone really knows how long it takes the EEC to learn a new mixture. Not a nice thought IMO.

In this post I merely stated that others who have tried alcohol have not had significant success. You can see in that post that I provided detailed information about my tuning experience the like of which NO ONE before or after has ever done!

From another post which discussed alcohol injection some time ago:


Boost. The M90 is designed to operate at 8psi of boost. After 18psi it becomes nothing more than a heat pump and ceases to function as a forced induction device. It is also a fact that as a positive displacement blower, the M90 does not perform well on a larger displacement motor. It just doesn't move enough air. It is commonly known that 18 psi is achievable on pump gas (with a proper turbo or blower) and 24psi is common on race gas. Alcohol injection will help achieve 21psi or so on pump gas.

Yep, I'm bashing alcohol injection alright. :mad:


And more recently in 2004:


With proper tuning an SC will not pull timing on the "top end". I think that if you have a combination all sorted out with predicatable and consistant results, it may be possible to add alchohol injection and pick up some useable performance. However, no one here can tell me for sure that they have their combination well sorted out enough to say that except for Coy Miller and - oh - guess what, he doesn't use alchohol injection any more either.

All too often people start throwing bandaides at a problem before they really solve the issue in the first place. I believe that most of the situations where you see huge gains from an alcohol injection system you have other problems that were not properly addressed that are being covered up by the alchohol. (this was in reference to the up to 100hp gains claimed for non-intercooled 5.0s).

In the past we have not been able to properly diagnose tuning issues as they came up. Now with a better understanding of how the EEC works combined with some better tuning tools we can actually tune an SC properly and the results are rather amazing.

Plus, up to now we haven't had the ability to run 20+psi meaning we simply have not had the need for a detonation suppressant. I know that my car (17psi) did not run any better on race fuel than it did on pump gas even when tuned with both fuels. Something to think about.

And finally this response from me (about 6 months ago) when someone asked if 60-100HP was possible with a Snow Performance kit.


You won't get that much out of the SC tuning with alcohol. Because we already have an IC, aluminum heads, a better combustion chamber than the 5.0, a knock sensor, and a computer that knows what to do with boost, there really isn't that much to be gained.

These quotes detail my position on alcohol injection systems over the past 2 years here at the SCCOA. In case it is not clear to anyone else, I have stated more than once in the above quotes how others have had little or no success with alcohol injection. I would appreciate if anyone can show me that someone has had verifiable success with a kit other than the MAF controlled Snow Performance kit (which is NOT the kit that was being discussed in the post referred to above) on their SC.

I have tried my best to stay away from topics of which I do not have first hand experience and in that spirit I had previously contained my comments about alcohol injection to address what I had seen reported from people who had actually tried it. I did NOT make claims or assertions rooted in biases or opinions that I held because of some kind of vendetta against alcohol injection as Damon has stated.

By all means, don't buy the system if you don't think it will work and if anyone doesn't like what I have said or feels I am terribly in error then please, buy a kit from someone else. All I did was buy the system for myself, install it, test it and offer it to this group as a performance enhancer. That's all.

I have offered the kit with enthusiasm to some people whom I felt would really stand to gain from it. This was through a genuine desire to help these people out. I find it very disheartening that even the best intentions around here are met with cyncism and resentment from our members.

To answer Todd and Victor's questions: Until I have the chance to test a car at both altitudes, I will have no idea what kind of challenges you are going to face when changing altitude. That's my official answer. I have other ideas, but obviously they will only be fodder for more attacks so I will keep them to myself.

David

XxSlowpokexX
07-06-2005, 03:33 PM
Actually you dont use much alcohol and the best way to go would be to find a properly sized reseviour that would need refilling when your gas tank does (on average)...

I agree with Micah that to be on the safe side two tunes would be a great idea. Much liek a car tuned and built to run on race gas will nto properl;y run on 83 octane the same goes for the alcohol injection....But not everyone has that capability and not everyone has an SCT tuner or some kind of a flip chip.

As far as what I said about changing opinions on specific performance upgrades the alcohol injection was only one of many and had little to do with the NOT SO NEW invention of having it controlled by MAF voltage being that technology has been around for years. Just not through Snow.

XR7 Dave
07-06-2005, 03:59 PM
I also remeber you saying a methanol kit was a bad idea. I say just admit you were wrong. We all make misinformed decisions. It looks much worse (at least to me anyway) when I see somone constantly changing thier opinions on something as they get better informed...Without addressing their prior misinformation. Damon I just want to say thank you for fabricating lies about my integrity. I would appreciate if you would not take such a cavalier attitude towards the truth regarding what I have said in the past.

Micahdogg
07-06-2005, 04:59 PM
Yeah, and your mustang sucks too Damon.

Micah

Kurt K
07-06-2005, 06:26 PM
All I have to say is that when Kurt bolts his kit on and rips off an 11 at the track....I'll probably forget about ever trying to get close to his times again.

MicahIf I get 11's by bolting on this kit, I'll eat my shorts....hell, I'll eat your shorts! But you should still forget about ever trying to get close to my times again.

David Neibert
07-06-2005, 06:47 PM
Damon,

Why are you such a tool ?

David

92tbird04
07-07-2005, 08:05 PM
Dave, Tryed using the link that you have for your email and cant seem to get it to work.
I talked to you at midwest bash about the snow kit, I would like to get one if you still have any. How much are they $425 plus shipping?

XR7 Dave
07-08-2005, 12:21 AM
Dave, Tryed using the link that you have for your email and cant seem to get it to work.
I talked to you at midwest bash about the snow kit, I would like to get one if you still have any. How much are they $425 plus shipping?

Email is mdkracing@alltel.net. They are still available.

victor malvar
07-08-2005, 02:53 AM
Then as to the altitude question...Mere speculation here, but with the kit being dependent upon the MAF function...thinner air = less voltage on the MAF, right? So doesn't it stand to reason that thicker air would have a higher voltage? I'm sure that Todd doesn't build as much boost in Dever as he would somewhere in FL. Now there would be some fine tuning required to get optimal performance, but you're going to need that depending on humidity, temp, elevation, etc anyway if you're going for everything. Just some thoughts. I'm just looking at it all from a layman's point of view. I just thing some of this is getting over complicated.

Hi Dave, everyone.....

I have been taking a closer look at this and want to say that After having looked at this more throughly, I believe this will work as you explain it being a tuning technician Here is what I can say. Any car would need some tuning for racing or even driving regularly if you went from 6'MLS to 2500' MLS. If you set this to only kick in at certain boost levels lets say 12psi it is a worthy injection and HP gaining enhancer. I did not want to jump into the these last discussions after I asked you some direct questions I have been asked direct questions and have had to answer them... I have had questions before ordering this kit or selling it to anyone who has asked me. what I thought about it... I wanted to know exactly what it would do? I have to answer questions all day long... If i were to place it on my car and not be able to drive from here to Colorado Mile high stadium or any event without a tuner of my own.... I know that if this is tuned properly, and you were to stay in the vicinity of the area you live in and not vary into high altitudes for a races lets say...It would be a great way to increase performance! I would recommend it to my customers in a second as long as they knew what to expect and what not to expect clearly. I have read more on this system and asked some pros more questions on this system they endorse it. I would concur with you and others that this is a good system as long as your clear on what to expect from it. My questions were to get some information that would make this systen something that some of us or all of us would be able to understand. The pros and the cons of a system like this. When planing to race it would need re-tuning for ultimate or best optimum performance! If your going to stay in you general area without a extreme change in altitude it is a worthy unit for local use without having to re-tune. I think it's a better than Nitrous, It burns cleaner and would be a blast to be able to get that instant power without hurting your engine. Much safer! I would recommend this to my customers, as long as I can explain it's funtionality. Also they need to undertand what to expect, and what not to expect. Any car will run diffrently as you change altitudes with or without this kit installed. I believe it's a viable alternative to Nitrous is many cases. To the serios drag or 1/4 mile enthusiast some may use Nitrous and some might be better of without it.
It's definatly much safer. I hope my comments did not lead to anyone mistrusting you and your intentions I do not believe that for a second. But yes Dave vendors and re-sellers are on trial... I am all the time. I have to basically prove my products to my customers or they will not buy them. I stand behind what I say and sell! I refund the money and pay for the freight... Been there done that I do not charge a restocking fees either.I will not exept merchandise tat has ben improperly intalled or used then returned! I look forward to a Snow kit from you or who ever. I just wanted to make my point clear. I also like updates when things are not on time. I'm sure others do also...If I can't deliver on time for any reasons, I find a way to get word out that things are behind due to A Hurricane or because the MFG delay (s). I had to do this last year during the hurricanes, Paul Protos, I called him to do me a favor and advise everyone of our situation :eek: He put the word out for me. :) When I could not deliver goods on time! due to the hurricanes.... I believe you are Honest and reputable, I beleive you have a large following and that this will continue to grow. I wanted to make myself as clear as possible. I also wanted some answers and Sunshine... I have a letter to mail to you about other subject and real good idea that may interest you or not?. I'm have a store to run and I have to be constatly be ready to be met with sketisism. I'm always on trial. I have been on trial with many of your friends for awhile now. I'm ready to meet skeptisism with answers when ever I have to or need to. It's not easy being a Vendor sometimes... But I enjoy helping the same as you do or we would not risk ourselves.... Thank you for your explanations We compete that's fact in some areas we should not your a technician you do not have the cost of invetory, monthly store expenses, and a lot's more! You are Al A Carte! With Buy In's here and Buy In's there no large risk of inventory losses $$$. I was told I could sell a chip for you You have never allowed me. It does not matter to me. What matters to me, is not hurting anyone intentionaly. That's it Dave. Good Luck to you! I hope you undertand somethings I tried to explain open heartedly without any fears of retrabution. from anyone. I try my best to please everyone. But It's not possible to do so 100%... Like Dan Holleran said to me "Victor you have to be more thick skinned and not expect everyone will buy from you or like you" I learned what he meant quick! You Know what I mean. We do our best to please everone. I'm Glad we spoke David I undertand much more about this system I would recommend it to my group, I plan to also purchase one.
I hope you think about my Ideas and what I offered. Thank you for your time.
I'll see you in August. I'll need you at the Florida Shoot out. We are having real severe wether today Saturday. Heave Winds Tornadoes, we have lost pewr twice but we are still on line. Good luck, Panhandle folks, You have a Big one coming at you! Call us if you need our help, Water, Generators, any assistance we can render to any one. God Bless you all. Stay Safe!!! We are loosing pwer any second.Winds inexcess of 65MPH. Tornadoes Sirens going off. 3rd time :eek:
352-732-5013

Best Regards,
Victor......

Kurt K
07-08-2005, 08:15 AM
Cliff Notes? :rolleyes:

pablon2
07-14-2005, 10:33 PM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/supercatxr7/DSC08180.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/supercatxr7/DSC08182.jpg

Best I can tell from your pics, you mounted the nozzle at a level above the reservoir b/c you don't have an IC correct? If true then can I assume you did not use the selenoid? For those that have used the selenoid, DAVID DALKE, I assume I mount it between the pump and nozzle, but where/how did you mount it and which number (1 or 2) on the selenoid is the IN and which the OUT? Also, what is the dial/knob on the end? A manual shut off maybe? There are also two black wires...where do they go? Ground and 12VDC key on maybe? No instructions came with mine that addresses the selenoid as you can see. Lastly, where are people tapping into key-on power? I tapped into the ignition wire under the steering column for my gauges, but it is getting a little cramped there AND I don't like to tap into the same wire too many times.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I actually get into it (beyond the study phase I am in now). I wonder what a shop would charge to install the system in case I decide to not take the time to do it. Any guesses? $200-$300???

Crapola... I looked for a place to mount the reservoir and pump, and have come to the conclusion that the only place I can put it is where the battery is. So, I'll have to move the battery to the trunk, which comes with it's own set of issues like a shut-off switch in the trunk b/c I plan to run drag and need to abide by NHRA rules. This install may have to wait for now.

supercatxr7
07-16-2005, 12:13 AM
Best I can tell from your pics, you mounted the nozzle at a level above the reservoir b/c you don't have an IC correct? If true then can I assume you did not use the selenoid? For those that have used the selenoid, DAVID DALKE, I assume I mount it between the pump and nozzle, but where/how did you mount it and which number (1 or 2) on the selenoid is the IN and which the OUT? Also, what is the dial/knob on the end? A manual shut off maybe? There are also two black wires...where do they go? Ground and 12VDC key on maybe? No instructions came with mine that addresses the selenoid as you can see. Lastly, where are people tapping into key-on power? I tapped into the ignition wire under the steering column for my gauges, but it is getting a little cramped there AND I don't like to tap into the same wire too many times.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I actually get into it (beyond the study phase I am in now). I wonder what a shop would charge to install the system in case I decide to not take the time to do it. Any guesses? $200-$300???

Crapola... I looked for a place to mount the reservoir and pump, and have come to the conclusion that the only place I can put it is where the battery is. So, I'll have to move the battery to the trunk, which comes with it's own set of issues like a shut-off switch in the trunk b/c I plan to run drag and need to abide by NHRA rules. This install may have to wait for now.

The nozzle is in the lower tube, you can't see it in the pick. It is not mounted high. I zip tied the solenoid to the radiator support, it is not visible. It doesn't matter on the solenoid either end will work for in and out. One black wire goes to positive, the other to ground, again doesn't matter which end.

XR7 Dave
07-16-2005, 09:00 AM
Best I can tell from your pics, you mounted the nozzle at a level above the reservoir b/c you don't have an IC correct? If true then can I assume you did not use the selenoid? For those that have used the selenoid, DAVID DALKE, I assume I mount it between the pump and nozzle, but where/how did you mount it and which number (1 or 2) on the selenoid is the IN and which the OUT? Also, what is the dial/knob on the end? A manual shut off maybe? There are also two black wires...where do they go? Ground and 12VDC key on maybe? No instructions came with mine that addresses the selenoid as you can see. Lastly, where are people tapping into key-on power? I tapped into the ignition wire under the steering column for my gauges, but it is getting a little cramped there AND I don't like to tap into the same wire too many times.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I actually get into it (beyond the study phase I am in now). I wonder what a shop would charge to install the system in case I decide to not take the time to do it. Any guesses? $200-$300???

Crapola... I looked for a place to mount the reservoir and pump, and have come to the conclusion that the only place I can put it is where the battery is. So, I'll have to move the battery to the trunk, which comes with it's own set of issues like a shut-off switch in the trunk b/c I plan to run drag and need to abide by NHRA rules. This install may have to wait for now.

Mark already answered most of your questions. The solenoid goes after the pump. Solenoids are non-polar.

I charge $125 to install the kit. All componenents are mounted under the hood so the only thing run into the car is the LED wire. I also include a relay because I don't like tapping existing power sources. I use the purple/orange wire in the DTRL connector to trigger the system (ignition power) and a fused lead to the battery for main power. It takes me most of a day to do but it's certainly not hard work. :)

A little imagination should be able to find you a spot to mount things. There is room in the engine bay for all items. If you need to you can mount the pump under one of the fenders or inside the bumper cover. The tank could be attached to the airbox or if you have a MP cold air divider I mounted one directly to that. In fact the pump will fit inside the cold air divider if you wanted to do that.

It can be a little intimidating I suppose, but I certainly wouldn't relocate the battery on account of it.

On a side note, a 400rwhp car (17psi) we were tuning the other day with an Isuzu NPR fmic saw a 5 deg temp rise on the dyno when ambient temps were 95 deg. The highest temp we saw was 102 deg. For those of you who have been at a dyno session with me you know that 102 deg is entirely unheard of regardless of ambient temps or IC design.

Mark, any reports on how well your setup is working w/o an IC?

Randy N Connie
07-16-2005, 09:17 AM
I set the box that the snow-injection came in on top of the battery.
Went back a week later,it was still in the box,and has not installed its
self yet. :confused:

RANDY

Kurt K
07-16-2005, 09:56 AM
... There is room in the engine bay for all items ... The tank could be attached to the airbox or if you have a MP cold air divider I mounted one directly to that. In fact the pump will fit inside the cold air divider if you wanted to do that.
This should be true for most cars, unfortunately on my car, the Pro-M MAF I'm running doesn't leave enough room to mount the tank on the fender or the MP cold air divider. I'll be using a late-model washer tank instead. I'll be pulling my bumper off later so I can find a subtable place to mount everything.

supercatxr7
07-16-2005, 01:31 PM
Mark already answered most of your questions. The solenoid goes after the pump. Solenoids are non-polar.

I charge $125 to install the kit. All componenents are mounted under the hood so the only thing run into the car is the LED wire. I also include a relay because I don't like tapping existing power sources. I use the purple/orange wire in the DTRL connector to trigger the system (ignition power) and a fused lead to the battery for main power. It takes me most of a day to do but it's certainly not hard work. :)

A little imagination should be able to find you a spot to mount things. There is room in the engine bay for all items. If you need to you can mount the pump under one of the fenders or inside the bumper cover. The tank could be attached to the airbox or if you have a MP cold air divider I mounted one directly to that. In fact the pump will fit inside the cold air divider if you wanted to do that.

It can be a little intimidating I suppose, but I certainly wouldn't relocate the battery on account of it.

On a side note, a 400rwhp car (17psi) we were tuning the other day with an Isuzu NPR fmic saw a 5 deg temp rise on the dyno when ambient temps were 95 deg. The highest temp we saw was 102 deg. For those of you who have been at a dyno session with me you know that 102 deg is entirely unheard of regardless of ambient temps or IC design.

Mark, any reports on how well your setup is working w/o an IC?

Not yet, just got insurance the other day finally. Got collectors insurance for $280 a year as a modified vehicle! Hopefully sometime next week I will be able to do a little testing.

mark

Kurt K
07-16-2005, 02:57 PM
Not yet, just got insurance the other day finally. Got collectors insurance for $280 a year as a modified vehicle! Hopefully sometime next week I will be able to do a little testing.

markWho'd you get your collector's insurance from?

pablon2
07-16-2005, 03:18 PM
I'd say the instructions are a tad off. It says to pre-drill with a 3/16" bit for the nozzle. Yeah right, there's no way you're gonna get the included tap into a hole that small! Nearly have to double it.

p.s. just to make sure I have this right. The nozzle threads into the return IC tube, not the nozzle holder? (this sits flush more or less with the return IC tube's outside edge.) This threw me a bit b/c the holder's OD is threaded and would not have to be since it goes into nothing.

pablon2
07-17-2005, 09:41 AM
A little imagination should be able to find you a spot to mount things. There is room in the engine bay for all items. If you need to you can mount the pump under one of the fenders or inside the bumper cover. The tank could be attached to the airbox or if you have a MP cold air divider I mounted one directly to that. In fact the pump will fit inside the cold air divider if you wanted to do that.


I think I'm gonna put it here. I hope it doesn't interrupt air flow, my guess is it will, but not enough to hurt. Reason being, this filter can provide more air than my engine will ever need. It bends the filter's neck a tad, but oh well, I am banking on the neck's resiliency.

Randy N Connie
07-17-2005, 10:15 AM
A little off subject,But it never dawned on me until after looking
at pablon2's pictures.The radiators over flow tank is right under
the MAf.This would be a heat source to heat the MAF & cold air
tube up and the air passing though it.I would like to find a way
to remove the tank from this area.

Anyone have an idea of a new tank and relocation spot.Just as
well take care of this problem while mounting the snow system.

Has anyone mounted a larger snow tank in the trunk?Or would this
be to far away?

Thanks Randy

victor malvar
07-17-2005, 11:09 AM
A little off subject,But it never dawned on me until after looking
at pablon2's pictures.The radiators over flow tank is right under
the MAf.This would be a heat source to heat the MAF & cold air
tube up and the air passing though it.I would like to find a way
to remove the tank from this area.

Anyone have an idea of a new tank and relocation spot.Just as
well take care of this problem while mounting the snow system.

Has anyone mounted a larger snow tank in the trunk?Or would this
be to far away?

Thanks Randy

I was thinking the same the trunk, with the possibility of using a small pump to get the fluid up to the symtem small tank sumersible pump 12 volt pump may work without any danger. I thought of this last night. It may just be the easiest alternative. Possibly using a cooler if needed.....
Thanks,
Victor......

pablon2
07-17-2005, 11:10 AM
A little off subject,But it never dawned on me until after looking
at pablon2's pictures.The radiators over flow tank is right under
the MAf.This would be a heat source to heat the MAF & cold air
tube up and the air passing though it.I would like to find a way
to remove the tank from this area.

Anyone have an idea of a new tank and relocation spot.Just as
well take care of this problem while mounting the snow system.

Has anyone mounted a larger snow tank in the trunk?Or would this
be to far away?

Thanks Randy

Personally, I would focus on worrying about cooling air that has already passed through the supercharger (e.g., XX IC, FMIC, Boost Cooler), or are you thinking that incoming air that is X degrees cooler will continue to be X degrees cooler at the intake elbow regardless of the hot SC's affect on it? To that I would not know w/o testing. Now we are getting way off track..... ;)

victor malvar
07-17-2005, 09:44 PM
Personally, I would focus on worrying about cooling air that has already passed through the supercharger (e.g., XX IC, FMIC, Boost Cooler), or are you thinking that incoming air that is X degrees cooler will continue to be X degrees cooler at the intake elbow regardless of the hot SC's affect on it? To that I would not know w/o testing. Now we are getting way off track..... ;)





Hi Paul,
We must have been posting at about the same time. I think that right next to the cone would not impede much airlow at all. I have seen some guy's open the air itake hole a little bigger for various reasons. If you feel it's going to impede any air to your intake maybe opening it up a small amount would not hurt. Just an idea. I like it where you have it. I do not think it will. It looks good, fits good, As long as it runs good. I would at least try it.
Good Luck!
I think it will work.
Victor........

Randy N Connie
07-17-2005, 11:19 PM
My fender is cut out for more air.
Have an air box I have been working
on.It replaces the inter fender.

The reason I was wanting to mount
the Snow tank in the trunk. Is because
I plan to run two larger tanks, with two
Snow systems.I am sure that I am running
more air in my motor than most with my
different intake parts.To take advantage
of two systems if set up right.

Thanks Randy

yardbird
07-18-2005, 12:58 AM
I have been reading about water/alchy injection for years. Back in the mid/late 70's I read a good article, (forget who the author was) that went into detail about the advantages of w/a injection. Back then, almost all apps were for NA engines. A KA (Kappa Alpha) at the U of Fl (1962) had an Oldsmobile "starfire" that was a small turboed engine. As someone pointed out turbos and water injection were available years age (places besides P51's and P38's)! Dont know if it had w/a inj though.
The points raised as to the benefits of w/a inj back then are still valid----even though technology is light-years ahead in autos.
I think some are kinda missing (That certainly isnt an inditement!) the benefits of injection. Certainly, for maximum benefit, a tuneup is needed to tweek---. If we try to pick the **** out of the pepper, a tweek was possibly needed after you added the K&N! But, I dont think that doomsday prophecy is called for if water/achy jug runs dry. Absolutely, positively, certainly, you do not want to run dry while under a lot of boost. I see several possible remedies for that contingency---and I have **** for experience with SC's!!
Now some of you guys who are really experts on SC's, help me out if I make a really inaccurate statement! Years ago, probably the same today, cheap gas did not necessarily mean you could not have 11/1 compression (also read a supercharger). It meant that you backed your timing down until the pinging stopped. Even at 11/1 you still did not have a diesel, you had to have spark. Simply injecting water, while it cost about 5%, allowed you to bump your timing back up, which meant you probably gained that loss back. Then you add alchy----that supposedly gained a plus 5% then you advanced your timing back up for more gain. Here are a few points that I see as a plus for daily drivers, also part of the claims of the mfg's
You can run the same gas and tune on the street that you run at the track. For that all you have to do is keep up with a little "water jug"
You spend megabux on S-porting, AED's special intercoolers, larger MAF and TB's and Injectors----in addition to the normal upkeep items for these cars, but this is too much trouble?
Wherever your timing is to allow the 9-1 and 12-15 lbs boost, water injection will allow you to advance (or tune) it back. To us streeters, we can build a 9-1 engine w/10% pulley and mild cam and not be afraid of what the gas will be. Under a no-load condition (high manifold vacumn) an engine only requires 87 octane or less, with normal timing. That changes rapidly with load.
Those of us who like these toys, are going to have to go to more and more trouble to keep them performing like we are used to. I dont know about the rest of you, but water is pretty cheap at my house-----as long as you dont try to sprinkle it on the lawn! Alcohol (the non-drinkable kind) factored in with the savings of 91-92 octane instead of racing gas is also very cheap.
Guaranteed that someone on this board will come up with a "fix" for the small issues of perfect tuning.
Bartender, count me in!! Now if I only had a running Sup Cp to put one on. :)

YB

yardbird
07-18-2005, 01:12 AM
Sorry to get so long winded on the last reply! Completely forgot that I wanted to ask XR7 Dave about running without an intercooler. I sent an email to snow perf last year about the prospect of deleting the intercooler. They pointed out how relatively inefficient the intercooler was. Although they do help, the water injection was sufficient up to a certain level of boost (really high level of boost as I recall). Given the money spent for a double, much less a spearco etc, the weight loss and space under hood that is a very attractive possibility.
I think it is Supercatxr7 that has picts of missing intercooler.
What do you guys think about deleting the intercooler for a daily driver with only moderate boost? Have you had anything that made you think you needed to put the intercooler back in? TX again! :)
YB

victor malvar
07-18-2005, 03:35 AM
Hi Yardbird,Years ago, probably the same today, cheap gas did not necessarily mean you could not have 11/1 compression (also read a supercharger). It meant that you backed your timing down until the pinging stopped. Even at 11/1 you still did not have a diesel, you had to have spark. Simply injecting water, while it cost about 5%, allowed you to bump your timing back up, which meant you probably gained that loss back. Then you add alchy----that supposedly gained a plus 5% then you advanced your timing back up for more gain. Here are a few points that I see as a plus for daily drivers, also part of the claims of the mfg's
You can run the same gas and tune on the street that you run at the track. For that all you have to do is keep up with a little "water jug"
You spend megabux on S-porting, AED's special intercoolers, larger MAF and TB's and Injectors----in addition to the normal upkeep items for these cars, but this is too much trouble?
Wherever your timing is to allow the 9-1 and 12-15 lbs boost, water injection will allow you to advance (or tune) it back. To us streeters, we can build a 9-1 engine w/10% pulley and mild cam and not be afraid of what the gas will be. Under a no-load condition (high manifold vacumn) an engine only requires 87 octane or less, with normal timing. That changes rapidly with load.
Those of us who like these toys, are going to have to go to more and more trouble to keep them performing like we are used to. I dont know about the rest of you, but water is pretty cheap at my house-----as long as you dont try to sprinkle it on the lawn! Alcohol (the non-drinkable kind) factored in with the savings of 91-92 octane instead of racing gas is also very cheap.
Guaranteed that someone on this board will come up with a "fix" for the small issues of perfect tuning.
Bartender, count me in!! :) :) Now if I only had a running Sup Cp to put one on. :rolleyes: ;) :) I hear you load and clear...Our Son's Grandfather Flew the P-38 Thundelbolt,the P51 Mustang, Corsair, and a few others. I called Grampa when I read this post. Grandpa is a WW11 Ace, he is 82 summers old... but stil walks 5 miles a day took a 50 cliber threw the calf blew it off his leg put a tournique on and still went after took the bogie and splashed him! By then he was getting light headed loss of blood. Ditched her in the Solomons Islands. Colonel Ketheth P.Ogden Ret. He and I were reading your post, I live North of you, went to School at U Of Fl, Santa Fe, 1972...Did not Grad (Anesthetist tech.) Went back Into Family Biz. Grandpa He said you were right on... that they did things back then very sililar to your post. " Quote Victor offer Him one of yours he may teach you something..." End Quote. I'm willing to let you have at it.I have a few here in Ocala. I Lived in Longwood for awhile... or acually My brother owned CCA.( Corporate Centers Of America) 10 years back. The Round House You must know the guy who built them. You can whisper in the top bedroom and hear the whispers in the living room. It's wild. Cant talk no Bulls--- in that house. You are very Interesting. All of the Guys here are top Notch SCr's We have an Ace tunner and others which can also tune but Dave XR7 Dalke Top Drawer. When can we talk?. I'm ready when you are. I have good water in a special Jug. Grandpa said you got it pretty right on the money. He said we had no choice but to figure things out and Keep em Flying thy used what ever fuel was available inprovised al So we did! I undertand the No Intercooler idea. I noticed that picture also pretty sure its on this post. I have some ideas if you want to have some back and forth? Iwould love to tslk with you or come by and visit. Or you you want come up and check Dave XR7 will be back here Late august, In the mean time I desperatly need to put some new Machinery on a SC take it to the dyno put one of these on possibly get some numbers and could surelly use your ideas and company. If your not busy. I need to do this pretty soon. I need a 10% or 15% Jack shaft. I will buy one or borrow or trade. From anyone. I will have a kit real soon. YardBird give me a call at 352-732-5013 or I can call you Need Ph. No. Or please post or Email me at Spinningwheels@earthlink.net. This real interesting !!! Love to hear from you...Anytime soon. ;) Sorry for the cliff notes, I like to write what on my mind.
Victor........
www.spinningwheels-sc.com

supercatxr7
07-18-2005, 06:02 PM
Who'd you get your collector's insurance from?

American Hobbyist insurance.

mark

Kurt K
07-19-2005, 12:05 AM
American Hobbyist insurance.

markThanks Mark, I never heard of them before. Another company to look into :)

David Neibert
07-19-2005, 11:46 AM
My fender is cut out for more air.
Have an air box I have been working
on.It replaces the inter fender.

The reason I was wanting to mount
the Snow tank in the trunk. Is because
I plan to run two larger tanks, with two
Snow systems.I am sure that I am running
more air in my motor than most with my
different intake parts.To take advantage
of two systems if set up right.

Thanks Randy

Randy,

Instead of buying two systems, why not just get the upgraded system like I did for the turbo car. It has a 220 psi pump, dual nozzels and a 7 qt tank for mounting in the trunk. You can either control it off the manifold pressure (boost) or off the MAF voltage.

David

Randy N Connie
07-19-2005, 12:09 PM
Randy,

Instead of buying two systems, why not just get the upgraded system like I did for the turbo car. It has a 220 psi pump, dual nozzels and a 7 qt tank for mounting in the trunk. You can either control it off the manifold pressure (boost) or off the MAF voltage.

David
Because I want to run two different tanks.


Randy

XR7 Dave
07-19-2005, 01:06 PM
Sorry to get so long winded on the last reply! Completely forgot that I wanted to ask XR7 Dave about running without an intercooler. I sent an email to snow perf last year about the prospect of deleting the intercooler. They pointed out how relatively inefficient the intercooler was. Although they do help, the water injection was sufficient up to a certain level of boost (really high level of boost as I recall). Given the money spent for a double, much less a spearco etc, the weight loss and space under hood that is a very attractive possibility.
I think it is Supercatxr7 that has picts of missing intercooler.
What do you guys think about deleting the intercooler for a daily driver with only moderate boost? Have you had anything that made you think you needed to put the intercooler back in? TX again! :)
YB

YB, you have said what I have been trying to say all along. Thanks for the supporting viewpoint.

I will be testing your idea soon. I think it has a lot of merit.

yardbird
07-19-2005, 02:52 PM
Think how it would open thing up on the drivers side for plugs, exaust, Mtr mts, etc if the tubes could be eliminated. Maybe someone doing raised tops could change the angle of the outlet to a more rearward direction and use a short "u" tube of sorts to the intake. That might be a workable place for the W/A injectors. I'll be watchin with great interest! Sure do hope it is possible to eliminate the I/C. May not be enough cooling for some, but a large part of us probably will never be pushing that much boost (heat)!
I be drinking a beverage of choice and cheering for your success!!!
YB

supercatxr7
07-19-2005, 03:47 PM
If I had the time and wasn't actually going to put the intercooler on, I would have had a short tube made from the sc top to the intake plenum. But I just took some pipe and silicone hose to get the ends to meet so I could drive it to a shop to have the actual tubes for the IC done up. After looking at it and the snow kit arriving, I decided I would hook it up and try it out. Should have some more info maybe by next week.

Mark

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/supercatxr7/DSC08181.jpg

supercatxr7
07-19-2005, 05:37 PM
Well it's on the road now intercoolerless. At cruise once the car is fully warmed up the ACT temp is around 150-155 degrees. Temperature outside is around 85 degrees.

Under boost ACT temp is right around 120 degrees at wot with Snow System. Around a 30 to 35 degree temperature drop. This is with a stock 89-93 pulley on the supercharger and a 10% jackshaft pulley getting around 13lbs of boost. I have some smaller blower pulleys and will probaly be putting them on and logging some more data.

Jeremy_K
07-19-2005, 07:26 PM
I think they should send me a kit for altitude trials :D ! I'll take it from 5300 ft. up to 10,678ft. in about 1/2 hour and see how it works! Or have some of the Colorado guys take it up pike's peak! :)

Jeremy_K
07-19-2005, 07:28 PM
Well it's on the road now intercoolerless. At cruise once the car is fully warmed up the ACT temp is around 150-155 degrees. Temperature outside is around 85 degrees.

Under boost ACT temp is right around 120 degrees at wot with Snow System. Around a 30 to 35 degree temperature drop. This is with a stock 89-93 pulley on the supercharger and a 10% jackshaft pulley getting around 13lbs of boost. I have some smaller blower pulleys and will probaly be putting them on and logging some more data.
Can you do a 1/4 mile dyno for us?

Kurt K
07-19-2005, 11:35 PM
Well it's on the road now intercoolerless. At cruise once the car is fully warmed up the ACT temp is around 150-155 degrees. Temperature outside is around 85 degrees.

Under boost ACT temp is right around 120 degrees at wot with Snow System. Around a 30 to 35 degree temperature drop. This is with a stock 89-93 pulley on the supercharger and a 10% jackshaft pulley getting around 13lbs of boost. I have some smaller blower pulleys and will probaly be putting them on and logging some more data.

Sounds great Mark. I hope to have my kit on in the next 2 weeks, depending how long it take me to put brakes on my truck and get it inspected.

cougarsc
07-19-2005, 11:47 PM
Looks good Mark. Where do you tap for the MAF voltage?

supercatxr7
07-19-2005, 11:48 PM
Looks good Mark. Where do you tap for the MAF voltage?

light blue/red wire on the maf harness.

Kurt K
07-22-2005, 02:31 PM
Just a little update for everyone. I found a place to mount the pump in my car. I will be modifying the passenger fog light bracket to hold the pump. It just requires a little bit of welding and the pump won't be cluttering up my engine bay. It requires welding 2 studs to the heads of the mounting bolts (which happen to be on the same centerline as the pump mounting holes) and welding 2 standoffs and studs to the back of the bracket. It was supposed to be welded this week, but the welder at work was too busy and I loaned out my welder. The bracket modifications should be completed early next week and I will post pictures.

Ken Seegers
07-22-2005, 04:49 PM
I loaned out my welder.

Kurt,
Go to St Charles and get that thing back j/k :D
Later
Ken

XxSlowpokexX
07-22-2005, 05:16 PM
Water injection alone has much merrit as stated..I always say why not spend a buck and get a lil more octane out of it;O)

Kurt K
07-22-2005, 05:45 PM
Kurt,
Go to St Charles and get that thing back j/k :D
Later
KenDon't worry Ken. If I can actually afford to build the garage I'm trying to build, the welder will never leave again. As it is now, I really don't have the room to keep and use the welder in my current garage.

supercatxr7
07-27-2005, 09:11 PM
I have changed the stock sc pulley and 10% jackshaft and switched to 10% SC pulley and 10% jackshaft pulley. Cruise ACT is still around 150 or so degrees, but it really heats up a bit more vs. stock pulley and 10% jackshaft. I am seeing about 17lbs+ of boost, up from 13lbs before. ACT temp is reaching 180-185 degrees under boost wot in third. I'd hate to see what the ACT temp is without the boost cooler!

sizemoremk
07-27-2005, 09:24 PM
I have changed the stock sc pulley and 10% jackshaft and switched to 10% SC pulley and 10% jackshaft pulley. Cruise ACT is still around 150 or so degrees, but it really heats up a bit more vs. stock pulley and 10% jackshaft. I am seeing about 17lbs+ of boost, up from 13lbs before. ACT temp is reaching 180-185 degrees under boost wot in third. I'd hate to see what the ACT temp is without the boost cooler!


You ran that thang in the quarter yet???

supercatxr7
07-27-2005, 09:39 PM
You ran that thang in the quarter yet???

Not intercoolerless yet, but maybe Sunday or next weekend. The car goes in the shop the 8th of august for the intercooler mounting and welding of tubes, so I need to go at least once this way.

Kurt K
07-27-2005, 11:27 PM
I have changed the stock sc pulley and 10% jackshaft and switched to 10% SC pulley and 10% jackshaft pulley. Cruise ACT is still around 150 or so degrees, but it really heats up a bit more vs. stock pulley and 10% jackshaft. I am seeing about 17lbs+ of boost, up from 13lbs before. ACT temp is reaching 180-185 degrees under boost wot in third. I'd hate to see what the ACT temp is without the boost cooler!

Sounds great Mark, I can't wait to see results from the track. Btw, are you using the .375 nozzle or the .625 nozzle?

As for me, I've mounted the pump, late-model washer tank and the nozzle. To do that, I had to remove my bumper cover, headlight header panel, IC and battery. I had to remove the headlight assembly to drill 1 of the 3 holes required to mount the washer tank. I'm taking pictures, but will have to finish the roll of film before I can post pictures.

Anyway, I'm on hold again as my F250 failed its inspection today and I will be installing ball joints on it this weekend....the plates expire on Sunday.

supercatxr7
07-27-2005, 11:32 PM
I am using the smaller nozzle, but Dave suggested I put in the larger nozzle now which I will do over the next couple of days. Should cool me down a little more and richen it up.

It took me a few days to mount mine and set everything up due to just taking my time. You really went gung ho installing that pump! I will most likely end up moving the pump from where I currently have it due to the intercooler going in.

Kurt K
07-27-2005, 11:38 PM
You really went gung ho installing that pump! I will most likely end up moving the pump from where I currently have it due to the intercooler going in.
I will try to post pictures of my pump install as soon as possible. As thick as the fog-light brackets are, they seem lke they were made to support the weight of the pump. Plus, since the fog-light bracket and pump mounting holde share the same bolt-centers, it was almost too easy....although I did have somebody else do the welding for me.

supercatxr7
07-29-2005, 09:59 PM
Installed larger .675 jet in the Snow System and it
cooled the car down quite a bit. The air outside was
a little cooler too. Under boost 17lbs wot in third
a/f was around 12.2 and ACT temp was around 143 and
decreasing as I came up on around 5700 rpm. I was hitting around 185 degree ACT temp with smaller nozzle. Good stuff and pretty amazing without an intercooler on the car :eek: Going to track on Sunday.

XR7 Dave
07-29-2005, 11:32 PM
I'll say that is crazy! I've seen double IC's with fans that hit 145deg ACT at 17psi. I'll have to try the bigger nozzle on the dyno and see if it makes more power that way. I'm guessing that it should. :D

Kurt K
07-30-2005, 12:50 AM
I'll say that is crazy! I've seen double IC's with fans that hit 145deg ACT at 17psi. I'll have to try the bigger nozzle on the dyno and see if it makes more power that way. I'm guessing that it should. :D
Yep, I'll be putting the bigger nozzle on mine before I start putting everything back on the car tomorrow.

supercatxr7
07-30-2005, 12:56 AM
I've just been using window washer fluid and a little HEET. You guys think if I go to straight methanol with a little water I'd see any difference? Have you tried anything else yet dave with mixtures?

XR7 Dave
07-30-2005, 08:11 AM
I've stuck with the recommended 50/50 mix. Just playing it safe. :D

1badgtp
07-30-2005, 11:25 PM
Water injection is pretty noticble on the GTP when you start adding timing and boost it makes a world of difference. Progressive is the best way to go on a system. You should shop around on controller there are other units that are microprocessor based with way more features out there.

supercatxr7
07-31-2005, 09:19 PM
Day was warm about 82 degrees or so and was somewhat dissappointing in a way. I was seeing ACT temps peaking at around 180 degrees plus while running through the traps. A/F was pretty solid at around 12. I could feel the car pull timing once it heated up. What a difference cooler air makes as show in earlier posts and just third gear pulls, not a full out quarter mile run through the gears.

Track was prepped bad so my MT ET Streets wouldn't hook and my best 60 foot was a 2.11. I ran two 13.77 quarter miles at 100.XX mph. Guess I would be the first XR7/SC to run 13's without and intercooler ;) On a good track and cooler weather I think I could run a low 13 set up this way with lower ACT's and not pulling timing. With my old air/liquid intercooler and an SMC alcohol injection kit I ran a best of around 12.6 last year.

So there is the data running without an intercooler and using Snow Injection System, it is possible to do but your better off with an intercooler in my opinion unless you have some decent cooler temps outside and not running some serious overdrive on the blower.

New Spearco Air/Liquid intercooler goes in after next week should have some interesting data from the track and road once it is in. Pics will follow.

mark

Kurt K
07-31-2005, 11:32 PM
Day was warm about 82 degrees or so and was somewhat dissappointing in a way. I was seeing ACT temps peaking at around 180 degrees plus while running through the traps. A/F was pretty solid at around 12. I could feel the car pull timing once it heated up. What a difference cooler air makes as show in earlier posts and just third gear pulls, not a full out quarter mile run through the gears.

Track was prepped bad so my MT ET Streets wouldn't hook and my best 60 foot was a 2.11. I ran two 13.77 quarter miles at 100.XX mph. Guess I would be the first XR7/SC to run 13's without and intercooler ;) On a good track and cooler weather I think I could run a low 13 set up this way with lower ACT's and not pulling timing. With my old air/liquid intercooler and an SMC alcohol injection kit I ran a best of around 12.6 last year.

So there is the data running without an intercooler and using Snow Injection System, it is possible to do but your better off with an intercooler in my opinion unless you have some decent cooler temps outside and not running some serious overdrive on the blower.

New Spearco Air/Liquid intercooler goes in after next week should have some interesting data from the track and road once it is in. Pics will follow.

markInteresting data Mark. Now get the Air/Liquid installed and get some real numbers :)

As for my install. I worked on it all day. I really wish I could just slap mods in, but unfortunately everything has to be just right. All of the mechanical connections are made, I just need to wire everything.

Kurt K
08-09-2005, 01:35 AM
OK guys, looks like I finally got everything installed...I just need to hide some wiring, but not until after I test it. Anyway, I should be able to at least make sure the little green LED comes on. Not sure how much I will feel and I'm not monitoring intake temps, so I don't know what to expect.

Anyway, after testing, I'll probably pull the fuse and wait for a tune. Well, maybe not :rolleyes:

XR7 Dave
08-09-2005, 09:57 AM
OK guys, looks like I finally got everything installed...I just need to hide some wiring, but not until after I test it. Anyway, I should be able to at least make sure the little green LED comes on. Not sure how much I will feel and I'm not monitoring intake temps, so I don't know what to expect.

Anyway, after testing, I'll probably pull the fuse and wait for a tune. Well, maybe not :rolleyes: You won't feel anything. It's completely seamless.

Kurt K
08-09-2005, 12:11 PM
You won't feel anything. It's completely seamless.
How am I supposed to know if it's doing anything? :confused:

sizemoremk
08-09-2005, 12:39 PM
Hmm, I would think you would tell a decent difference, kinda like between driving in hot and cold weather???

I mean an SC acts totally different in the cool weather, until it gets heat soaked... I thought this mod would be equivalent to driving in cool weather most of the time; and of course pave the way for more boost, timing, etc, etc?

So you're saying that one would not expect a seat of the pants gain form the water/alky alone???

Kurt K
08-09-2005, 01:27 PM
Hmm, I would think you would tell a decent difference, kinda like between driving in hot and cold weather???

I mean an SC acts totally different in the cool weather, until it gets heat soaked... I thought this mod would be equivalent to driving in cool weather most of the time; and of course pave the way for more boost, timing, etc, etc?

So you're saying that one would not expect a seat of the pants gain form the water/alky alone???

seat-of-the-pants gains are harder to come by when you are running 12's....it's just harder to feel a difference.

sizemoremk
08-09-2005, 01:51 PM
seat-of-the-pants gains are harder to come by when you are running 12's....it's just harder to feel a difference.



LOL!!! I didn't pay attention to see you were in the 12s!!!

I'll need to look more closely at your member page!

I guess it woud be huh? I guess you'd have to test it on and off, same night, at the track....

XR7 Dave
08-09-2005, 01:57 PM
Kurt you most likely won't be able to tell the difference. That is what the LED is for. :p


For everyone else, I just don't get it. People will clamour around like monkeys to buy an MPIII without even knowing what (if anything) it will do for them, yet they continue to throw doubts on something that has been proven over and over and over again to be of clear benefit. It baffles me.


Sure the Snow kit isn't the first alcohol kit on the market and it may not even be the "best". But it does work, it offers good value, it performs reliably, and its backed by someone who knows how to tune your SC for it. Can you say that for any of the other kits?

What does it do? Well. Let me cover it once again.

100-110 octane! This means detonation is eliminated. Everyone repeat after me. NO MORE DETONATION. What is the #1 cause of headgasket failure??? If you said "restricted exhaust" then you can be dismissed now. That is a lie that has been perpetrated over the years. Detonation = blown headgaskets.

Lowered intake temps! This is all relative. On the dyno we saw 120 deg ACT's on Todds car. Wanna guess what we saw on a long WOT pass up a hill on a 95 deg day? How's 238 deg strike your fancy? Do you know what your ACT's are at any given moment? Nope, didn't think so. Alcohol injection will reduce ACT's by as much as 60 deg depending on conditions which helps keep your motor safe. This means more power is available than would be otherwise. If we had put an MPFMIC on that car and made the same pass would the ACT's have been as high? Maybe maybe not but I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the engine temps would have been even higher than 238 deg.

Methanol = fuel. Yes, the methanol can offer a HP advantage by introducing a quality fuel to the mix. However it requires tuning to take advantage of this.

Will your car make more HP with just the addition of alcohol injection? Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on what your tune is at the moment. Do you know know what your tune is? I'd say most likely not. How can I predict HP gains when I don't know what your tune is????

If someone came to me and said "hey I picked up 80rwhp with the Snow kit on my SC", rather than use that as a marketing tool I'd be inclined believe there was something wrong with the car for which the Snow kit provided a bandaid.

While I believe firmly in the value and benefit of alcohol injection, I am not going to set you up to think that there is a specific HP benefit gaurantee. Instead it's piece of mind. When was the last time you "whooped" on your car and didn't worry about detonation - at 20psi?

;)

pablon2
08-09-2005, 02:04 PM
Kurt you most likely won't be able to tell the difference. That is what the LED is for. :p


For everyone else, I just don't get it. People will clamour around like monkeys to buy an MPIII without even knowing what (if anything) it will do for them, yet they continue to throw doubts on something that has been proven over and over and over again to be of clear benefit. It baffles me.


Sure the Snow kit isn't the first alcohol kit on the market and it may not even be the "best". But it does work, it offers good value, it performs reliably, and its backed by someone who knows how to tune your SC for it. Can you say that for any of the other kits?

What does it do? Well. Let me cover it once again.

100-110 octane! This means detonation is eliminated. Everyone repeat after me. NO MORE DETONATION. What is the #1 cause of headgasket failure??? If you said "restricted exhaust" then you can be dismissed now. That is a lie that has been perpetrated over the years. Detonation = blown headgaskets.

Lowered intake temps! This is all relative. On the dyno we saw 120 deg ACT's on Todds car. Wanna guess what we saw on a long WOT pass up a hill on a 95 deg day? How's 238 deg strike your fancy? Do you know what your ACT's are at any given moment? Nope, didn't think so. Alcohol injection will reduce ACT's by as much as 60 deg depending on conditions which helps keep your motor safe. This means more power is available than would be otherwise. If we had put an MPFMIC on that car and made the same pass would the ACT's have been as high? Maybe maybe not but I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the engine temps would have been even higher than 238 deg.

Methanol = fuel. Yes, the methanol can offer a HP advantage by introducing a quality fuel to the mix. However it requires tuning to take advantage of this.

Will your car make more HP with just the addition of alcohol injection? Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on what your tune is at the moment. Do you know know what your tune is? I'd say most likely not. How can I predict HP gains when I don't know what your tune is????

If someone came to me and said "hey I picked up 80rwhp with the Snow kit on my SC", rather than use that as a marketing tool I'd be inclined believe there was something wrong with the car for which the Snow kit provided a bandaid.

While I believe firmly in the value and benefit of alcohol injection, I am not going to set you up to think that there is a specific HP benefit gaurantee. Instead it's piece of mind. When was the last time you "whooped" on your car and didn't worry about detonation - at 20psi?

;)


Speaking of tuning....if you have had a previous tune (like with SCT), just make sure you can get your damn tune files once the kit is installed. Otherwise, you're gonna eat a new 'from-the-ground-up' tune!!! Which reminds me, I have a call to make.

sizemoremk
08-09-2005, 02:20 PM
Kurt you most likely won't be able to tell the difference. That is what the LED is for. :p


For everyone else, I just don't get it. People will clamour around like monkeys to buy an MPIII without even knowing what (if anything) it will do for them, yet they continue to throw doubts on something that has been proven over and over and over again to be of clear benefit. It baffles me.


Sure the Snow kit isn't the first alcohol kit on the market and it may not even be the "best". But it does work, it offers good value, it performs reliably, and its backed by someone who knows how to tune your SC for it. Can you say that for any of the other kits?

What does it do? Well. Let me cover it once again.

100-110 octane! This means detonation is eliminated. Everyone repeat after me. NO MORE DETONATION. What is the #1 cause of headgasket failure??? If you said "restricted exhaust" then you can be dismissed now. That is a lie that has been perpetrated over the years. Detonation = blown headgaskets.

Lowered intake temps! This is all relative. On the dyno we saw 120 deg ACT's on Todds car. Wanna guess what we saw on a long WOT pass up a hill on a 95 deg day? How's 238 deg strike your fancy? Do you know what your ACT's are at any given moment? Nope, didn't think so. Alcohol injection will reduce ACT's by as much as 60 deg depending on conditions which helps keep your motor safe. This means more power is available than would be otherwise. If we had put an MPFMIC on that car and made the same pass would the ACT's have been as high? Maybe maybe not but I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the engine temps would have been even higher than 238 deg.

Methanol = fuel. Yes, the methanol can offer a HP advantage by introducing a quality fuel to the mix. However it requires tuning to take advantage of this.

Will your car make more HP with just the addition of alcohol injection? Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on what your tune is at the moment. Do you know know what your tune is? I'd say most likely not. How can I predict HP gains when I don't know what your tune is????

If someone came to me and said "hey I picked up 80rwhp with the Snow kit on my SC", rather than use that as a marketing tool I'd be inclined believe there was something wrong with the car for which the Snow kit provided a bandaid.

While I believe firmly in the value and benefit of alcohol injection, I am not going to set you up to think that there is a specific HP benefit gaurantee. Instead it's piece of mind. When was the last time you "whooped" on your car and didn't worry about detonation - at 20psi?

;)

I, for one, am not doubting the kit, I plan to get one, but just outta $$$ at the moment...

I am thinking that even on a stock SC with no tune, this kit would have to provide a mild, but noticeable seat of the pants improvement. Like I said, I would imagine the car would run like it was first thing in the morning for quite a while...

I understand that just like everyhting else, its gonna require a tune to run correctly. But I will have those bases covered with my eec tuner and PLX datalogger... If I can get it figured out!

I'm going the Fastsc92 route, as he was running 12.7 ish with about the same setup I plan to run. Add some more boost, timing and alky injection, and who knows what the ETs will look like :confused:

XR7 Dave
08-09-2005, 03:09 PM
Speaking of tuning....if you have had a previous tune (like with SCT), just make sure you can get your damn tune files once the kit is installed. Otherwise, you're gonna eat a new 'from-the-ground-up' tune!!! Which reminds me, I have a call to make. Paul, when do you think you'll have your car back together? As soon as you get your file go ahead and send me your chip.

Mike, sounds like you will be having fun. With datalogging capability driving your SC will take on a totally new meaning.

Sorry if I came off condescending that wasn't my intention. I guess I got just one too many "how much HP will this give me" emails. lol

sizemoremk
08-09-2005, 03:16 PM
Paul, when do you think you'll have your car back together? As soon as you get your file go ahead and send me your chip.

Mike, sounds like you will be having fun. With datalogging capability driving your SC will take on a totally new meaning.

Sorry if I came off condescending that wasn't my intention. I guess I got just one too many "how much HP will this give me" emails. lol


Well.... how much horsepower will i be making :D

pablon2
08-09-2005, 03:30 PM
Paul, when do you think you'll have your car back together? As soon as you get your file go ahead and send me your chip.


Sent you an email.

Thanks

Kurt K
08-10-2005, 12:59 AM
I finally finished the installation tonight....took way too long, but it's finished. If my pictures come back tomorrow, I'll post them. Just for good measure, I decided to install my 5% jackshaft pulley since the alcohol should cool the added heat (at least that's my thought).

Kurt K
08-10-2005, 06:54 PM
I posted pictures of my installation in a new thread.

Click Here (http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66438)

pablon2
08-11-2005, 07:32 AM
I posted pictures of my installation in a new thread.

Click Here (http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66438)

Thanks for the info Kurt. It is interesting to see how others have installed their systems.

sizemoremk
08-16-2005, 01:10 AM
Mr. Dalke, which head gaskets are you using on the engine you tested with this setup?

Thank ya sir!

XR7 Dave
08-16-2005, 11:44 PM
Mr. Dalke, which head gaskets are you using on the engine you tested with this setup?

Thank ya sir!

I'm not sure what the relevance is here, my car did run, has run, and continues to run on the same headgaskets it has always had since I installed the heads 2-3 years ago. The risks associated with high boost are the same regardless of the gaskets you use and a composite type gasket is only going to last just so long at over 20psi.


:)

sizemoremk
08-16-2005, 11:55 PM
I'm not sure what the relevance is here, my car did run, has run, and continues to run on the same headgaskets it has always had since I installed the heads 2-3 years ago. The risks associated with high boost are the same regardless of the gaskets you use and a composite type gasket is only going to last just so long at over 20psi.


:)

I was just wanting to know if these were regular composite or MLS; I guess this was inappropriate for this thread... sorry :o

Super XR7
03-11-2006, 06:00 PM
Reviving this thread to ask a question. When mixing the methanol with water at a 50/50 mix, is the mix by weight or volume??

Mike8675309
03-11-2006, 06:38 PM
fluid volume

cdchicago
03-17-2006, 03:26 AM
Here is my .02 on the water meth systems...I have tuned several blown Vipers on our dyno with these kits. If you just bolt it in with no tuning all you are getting is low cost insurance. This is a good thing but ... if you want to really take advantage of the kit it must be tuned on a dyno with a wideband!

The Viper guys use a Roe Racing kit but they are all similar. In some cases hp goes down as the mixture will be rich ...what better way to lean it back out than with some timing? Don't try this at home. A Viper can gain 30 - 40 hp xtra with water meth if tuned properly. I've heard up to 70 more but have yet to see that much.

Summary, any forced induction car can benifit from a water meth system but it needs to be tuned to work properly.

SCaddict
03-17-2006, 05:29 PM
I am in the process of trying to figure out if I can run stuff called Blue Thunder. It comes in a 1 Gallon jug and the mixture is 20% Nitromethane, 12% oil and 68% Methanol. Is this a nuts thing to try or what? Opinions please.:)

Mike8675309
03-17-2006, 08:03 PM
I would not run any nitromethane blend without being tuned for that. You could find yourself lean pretty quick.

CMac89
03-18-2006, 12:48 AM
Very much true what Mike said. Nitromethane has a 1.7:1 AFR and alcohol/methanol is 6.7:1. This is part of the reason it is diluted with water or 50/50'ed.

sizemoremk
03-18-2006, 12:50 AM
I thought nitromethane didn't need no oxygen?

I know snow sells the stuff...

How much is that stuff in the gallon jug?

This would be any easy thing to test on the dyno!

SCaddict
03-18-2006, 02:48 AM
I think it is around $40 a gallon. I would really like to see if this would work or just blow stuff up. Would the oil in it cause any problems with clogging or anything?

pablon2
05-02-2006, 02:43 PM
This may have been answered, but I could not find enough info to answer my question. For those that used a relay (David Dalke) to power their system how/where did they hook it up to? Does it hook to the green controller wire? Schematics I have seen only show a relay in the Stage I non MAF controlled setup.