PDA

View Full Version : Port Plate Conversation With MPG



MrBlvd
07-01-2005, 06:58 PM
I thought this might be of interest to those of you who have responded to the two other threads on this subject. I saw an add in the back of the July issue of mustangs and fords from MPG Head Services out of Englewood, CO for their port plates. I've got some "new" heads comming in and figured what the hell perhaps they have the product at this time. So anyway, I called and had a farly lengthy conversation with Scott.

To make a long story short, the highlights of the conversation are:
(please keep in mind I did not read all the other posts on this matter so I may repeat something already stated by another member)

1.The basic R&D work is done but MPG has not and is not planning on moving to the next stage at this time. Scott does not feel there is enough interest in plates for the 3.8 to warrant the tooling expense and other costs. I told Scott that there were two very lenght threads on our site showing lots of interst in this item. I asked Scott how many sets he would have to sell in order to make it worth his time. His response was 40 to 50.

2. Scott claims he has perfomance data showing before and after numbers. I told him I felt that posting of this data would certainly facilitate the development of this market. He agreed somewhat. What he really felt would move the masses was an endorsement by a racing team or racing league that focused on the 3.8 followed up by coverage in trade publications.

3. One part of our conversation focused on the potential market size. Scott does not have a good sense of the SC or the enthusiam shared by those (most anyway) who own and modify their own cars. I told Scott that there were also a lot of 3.8 mustang owners who were into perfomance mods and that this might actually represent a larger target market than the SC crowd. I also stated that I did not know for sure if the plates would be directly interchangeble as there were probably several factors involved not the least of which would be any dimensional variations. Futhermore, just becouse the plates might fit, the performance/flow characteristics between the two setups might require a variation in the design to get the most out of each engine. There are many people on this site much more qualified to answer this than I am.

4. Pricing -- Scott estimated ~$200.00 for the set. The desing is an individual machined casting, one for each exhaust port. This is in contrast to the sheet metal fabrication design they also offer.

5. My estimate of start up costs - I have a lot of experience both designing and selling products with significant amounts of machined castings. We have our own shell mold foundry, pattern shop, tons of CNC, ETC... ETC... 10,000 to 20,000 for the pattern work alone then you have to add the overhead associated with configuration/control of eng. drawings, hard costs associated with machine tools, upfront costs associated with putting inventory on the shelf, several of you on this site know the drill...The thing is, he has already invested a lot of time and money in the prototype development. From my perspective (granted not as broad as others) it seems a shame for this item not to be taken to the next step.

6. In the end, I told Scott there were basically two ways I thought our group could help. First, a group buy of 40 to 50 people all of whom must be willing to put down the $ upfront ... say 50 to 75 ... this will show our seriousness and give him both the confidence and obligation to finish up. Second, one of you who sell product (I can think of three off hand) could work with Scott. In my opinion, this needs to be someone with a clear track record (consistent sales, not fly by night, understands the cars and the marketing, could possibly partner by putting up some $ for the rights of sole distribution).

7. http://www.mpgheads.com/

8. I hope this adds to the momentum. I believe there is a market for this item but it is beyond me to faciliate things beyond this "memo" to those of you interested in this item.

darriantbird
07-01-2005, 08:54 PM
I for one would be up for a group buy! :D Lets se how many we can get! come on guys!!

DARYLLD
07-02-2005, 06:14 PM
I'm interested in a set. It would be alot cheaper then sending our heads out to be welded and ported.

seawalkersee
07-02-2005, 11:55 PM
I got a better idea. Check out thier link. Then tell them we are interested in a better head altogether. He would be able to correct the middle intake runner and fix the exhaust as well as making a larger deck height and, AND, putting bigger valves in...lets say $1500-$2000 for a set. I would be in for that....

Chris

seawalkersee
07-10-2005, 06:35 AM
Is that an "I dont think so"?

Chris

XxSlowpokexX
07-10-2005, 07:00 PM
I DONT THINK SO!!!!...I think a sheetmetal plate would be cheaper....And I believe the single port stang to be the same exhaust port wise

seawalkersee
07-10-2005, 07:50 PM
It would be cheaper, but a new head...How can you even shrug that off?

Chris

DARYLLD
07-10-2005, 09:55 PM
I don't think there would be enough people to get a group buy going on a $1500- $2000 part, plus head bolts and the gasket set and labor. I know I wouldn't be in it. But a $ 200 part that adds 15-20 hp, and takes a couple hours to put in sounds good to me.

Drnaline
07-12-2005, 06:19 PM
I'd be interested in seeing the data? I ran two sets on a cleveland i had that ran very well. 12.50's at 5000 ft N/A. MPG's been around for at least 15/20 years. I'd trust them. There pretty much Ford specific. They have some nice cams to. For V6 i dunno.

darriantbird
07-12-2005, 08:59 PM
We should set up a poll to see just how many people want to do this , for the lazy who don't want to write :D :D all they will have do is click and vote. should give a good indication of just how many people are interested and it and would be some thing to show the MPG people !

DARYLLD
07-12-2005, 10:20 PM
Does anybody know if the 3.8 n/a engines have the same size ports. If so maybe we could let the mustang guys know about this and really get this group buy going.

XxSlowpokexX
07-12-2005, 10:29 PM
exhaust ports on single port stang heads should have same dimentions as stated earlier in this thread

sizemoremk
07-21-2005, 04:10 PM
just finding this thread!!!

I'd be interested in these also!!!

Count me in!!!

sail7seas
07-21-2005, 04:36 PM
Please add me to the List.

darriantbird
10-07-2005, 10:28 PM
has anyone gotton any more info on this? :confused:

cudaz101
10-10-2005, 05:34 AM
I have also shown interest in the past on this among countless others only to see it simply fizzle.

If nobody jumps in to volenteer as a vendor to orchestrate this I would suggest that as a club we just move along. All money could go to the SCCoA. Once the SCCoA has collected the agreed amount of orders then this company needs to get busy and fill said orders. I am sure George or Duffy could come up with some reasonable terms. Also once we as a club pass the NEEDED amount of orders the GP price should reflect that as well.


Brad

Birdman93
10-10-2005, 07:34 AM
Buy a $200 aftermarket part that MAY or MAY NOT add horsepower, that is not proven (as yet), and that the manufacturer has already stated that he doesn't have interest in going ahead with?

Count me put unril I see some in action with before/after dyno sheets. And those need to be 3.8L-not clevelands.

darriantbird
10-10-2005, 11:47 AM
It stands to reason that if it works on one set of heads with a simular port design it will work on another. even if the horse power #'s are not big I mean you guy's will spend 200+ on a throttle body when the return is a mere 10 or at best 15 hp! if port plates are an option to welding and reshaping the exhast por0t ,which from what I understand is a tricky and expensive prospect, then why not. :confused:

XxSlowpokexX
10-11-2005, 01:17 AM
There is almost noway that it wouldnt make power. Our exhaust port design sucks to say the least and by design port plates would help.

XR7 Dave
10-11-2005, 07:20 AM
I'm all about product and design improvements, but welded exhaust ports are way over-rated. Just get a good porting job done and get on with life. Kevin L has unwelded ports, and I don't see his car lacking power. :rolleyes:

Seriously, Kurt K and Tony S are perfect examples of 12 second cars that took different approaches to the same result. We can talk about that for quite a while.

Mark Petillo was flat out running down a Steig head car at the Shootout this year. We proved this weekend that the right choice of parts make some of that fancy stuff simply unnecessary. Mark turned 13.77 @ 104 this weekend with an early style blower and 2.73 gears. Something to think about.

seawalkersee
10-11-2005, 07:32 AM
AND...enough power to snap his input shaft offf the tranny...I assume you guys got done and sent him back?

Anyway, I will aggree with Dave on this. I think there are some other things to spend money on (now) that can make vast improvments on the way the car runs. Im thinkin that there could be flow improvments done without the port plates.

Chris

XxSlowpokexX
10-12-2005, 04:07 PM
Its all a matter of economics..Does 99% of the peopel need a Steig type head..No..But if you are looking toward maximization..You need something like a Steig head

Peopel just all to often buy parts without a goal or a knowledge of how thinsg work together..That sa problem

Now with Port Plates we can have the advantages of a welded exhaust floor without the price of one. If they work it would be great!..And with the design of our exhaust port..They most definately should show an improvement. I'd buy a set

seawalkersee
10-12-2005, 04:54 PM
In order for them to make me change my mind now, I would need to see a run with and then without. I think with a larger exhaust valve and larger blower you can overcome the problems with it.

Chris

XR7 Dave
10-12-2005, 08:43 PM
It comes down to an exhaust port size that far exceeds the flow potential of the intakes. The latest Steig version is dramatically smaller than stock yet flows within 5% of his ported intake side. The intakes are actually the bigger problem.

No one has yet found a way to make use of a welded head. Supposedly Damon has come close if he truly did make 500rwhp but with everyone else struggling in the 300's there just isn't the need for anything that exotic.

Heck the Mustang guys have made more than 500rwhp with unwelded heads also.

But like I said above, it's not that a product which bolts on and improves flow wouldn't be welcomed and I'd still like to see something like this done but since we've been waiting on this for such a long time with no developments, I just thought I'd point out that there are other options which make a whole lot of sense as well.

Randy N Connie
10-12-2005, 09:58 PM
I'm all about product and design improvements, but welded exhaust ports are way over-rated. Just get a good porting job done and get on with life. Kevin L has unwelded ports, and I don't see his car lacking power. :rolleyes:

Seriously, Kurt K and Tony S are perfect examples of 12 second cars that took different approaches to the same result. We can talk about that for quite a while.

Mark Petillo was flat out running down a Steig head car at the Shootout this year. We proved this weekend that the right choice of parts make some of that fancy stuff simply unnecessary. Mark turned 13.77 @ 104 this weekend with an early style blower and 2.73 gears. Something to think about.

My car ran a 13.9 stock heads.with 30 pounds of air in the tires at
the shootout.It would turn 13.75 with a little less air in the tires.

I cannot prove this yet but will soon.If you want big horse power.
Its going to take weld in the intake and exhaust ports..

Soon to be the most powerful & fastest light Wt unlisted SC V-6
ever, at the 2006 shootout.. :)

RANDY

seawalkersee
10-12-2005, 10:27 PM
Sooooo...we all need to step up to the SPI heads? Got a set? I remember someone having a link to the autorotor for the moostangs with those heads. I wonder what the final results would be with a factory set up and the AR.

Chris

XR7 Dave
10-16-2005, 10:34 AM
You guys are making life complicated for yourselves over nothing. Prove to me that non-welded single port heads can't beat the best Hp numbers out there currently and I'll buy you dinner. :p

darriantbird
10-16-2005, 10:43 AM
Well personally my main concern,heaven forbid, IS NOT hp #.It would be exhaust flow ,more on the lines of relieving pressure on weak design ,more speciflly help with blown head gasket problems. If it will relieve pressure on the exhaust side of our heads would not this be a benifit too all concerned ,or am I wrong to think getting more flow would help this problem? :confused:

seawalkersee
10-16-2005, 02:18 PM
I dont think the plate is going to reduce pressure. The point of the plate is for a more uniform flow. By cutting down on the open area of the exhaust port it keeps the exhaust from expanding and then.....awww hell, what do I know.

Chris

XR7 Dave
10-16-2005, 06:56 PM
You are right Chris. We give you crap but we know you have "the skills". :p

Darrian, exhaust back pressure has almost nothing to do with blown headgaskets.

darriantbird
10-16-2005, 08:09 PM
Well I just assumed it did becuase,the first thing I was told to do from reading this board was restrictive exhaust+supercharging=blown head gaskets. :confused:

XR7 Dave
10-16-2005, 10:32 PM
That is mostly propaganda. Detonation, a poor headgasket design, lousy machining on the part of Ford, and high operating temps mostly due to breakdowns in our cooling systems have contributed to most headgasket issues with these cars.

Any car with forced induction will have some headgasket issues, ours have more than most.

darriantbird
10-16-2005, 10:52 PM
I am not trying to be a wisea$$ know it all ,mostly cuz i'm not:D , but would'nt high back pressure in the cylinders ie;exhaust not finding it's way out,contribute to high operating temps? :o

seawalkersee
10-16-2005, 11:08 PM
It seems that you are attacking one question to add to another. The compression on this engine from the factory is lower to handle boost. In the event that you overdrive it by 10% (I think) you will have problems. THAT is how you run into that problem. As far as the initial problem, read XR7Daves other post. All of that is correct. The heads have a low deck height which allows for poor heat sinc AND more warpage. Or one because of the other. You CAN free up the exhaust by adding headers but that is not helping the cyliners volumetric efficiencey. You see, heat is generated by the comubstion process which gives the engine power. Now, once it hits a small outlet and then that outlet gets big, the air expands and for lack of a better word, "stalls" on top of the valve. This causes problems with flow. Dont belive me? Look at ANY aftermarket windsor style head and see how much smaller the ports are. I WOULD like to see what kind of gains could be experienced with the plates, and then the plates with bigger valves, and then the plates with porting in the pocket. After all of that though, I believe there would need to be a bit added to the intake as well.


Chris

XR7 Dave
10-17-2005, 09:58 AM
I don't think exhaust back pressure has anything to do with blown headgaskets. If that were the case turbo cars would be death to headgaskets and there would have been no recall of 1000's of non-supercharged 3.8's in the late 1990's. Think about that one. ;)

Mike8675309
10-17-2005, 11:08 AM
Back pressure in and of itself is not a determining factor in failure of headgaskets. At most, it is a condition, when excessive, that will contribute to excess heat retained in head. So while not a determining factor, it can be a contributing factor.

Regarding port plates. The theory behind them, as well as the theory involved in welding the ports is related to create a D shape exit port to increase exhaust velocity and limit reversion. This was all pretty well discussed in this thread:
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59672&highlight=exhaust+velocity+sonic
There was a good boost related article in the member's forum
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34275

And here is a interesting post from Randy Baker on this topic:
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59585&highlight=exhaust+floor+head
From this thread
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59585&highlight=exhaust+floor+head

seawalkersee
10-20-2005, 03:48 PM
Ahhhhh yes...those were good discussions.

Chris

XR7 Dave
10-20-2005, 07:38 PM
Interestingly enough, the last gen. Steig heads were not "D" shaped at all. :eek: The "D" shape works well enough but it's not that last word in exhaust port design. :)

XxSlowpokexX
10-20-2005, 09:27 PM
"D" shape works well enough but it's not that last word in exhaust port design.

I agree..And either were Steig heads to begin with..

Steigs workmanship wasnt that great in my opinion anyway..But they did work and well...Any reputable head porter/tig welder can produce equal or better flwo number in my opinion

Randy N Connie
10-21-2005, 07:39 AM
I agree..And either were Steig heads to begin with..

.....Any reputable head porter/tig welder can produce equal or better flwo number in my opinion

Damons right.

Or you can bolt some band-aid port plates in.
And dream what you should or could of had. :)

The only good use of a port plate,Would be to
use as a template, to measure, for welding or
head porting,if it has the proper shape.

D shaped ports have there place and use.But
this shape is not the best shape for all uses
of the heads, when different types of all out
performance is being sought.

my .02 Randy

seawalkersee
10-21-2005, 09:06 AM
HOLY SHNIKES.....Hell hath frozen over....Randy and Damon agree on something. :D

Chris