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View Full Version : Total seal gapless rings: new info, still problems, PLEASE assist



CaifanSC
08-16-2005, 11:18 AM
Quick recap, i have a 20 over block, pistons, and I ordered the "appropriate" T7174-20 total seal gapless rings. Im getting ring gaps of .023 top ring and .029 second (gapless ring)...whicn needless to say are huge, and this is the second set of rings from total seal i've gotten of the same size. Im wondering ~~~ is going on.

Block is right now at the machine shop, they checked the clearances and bore sizes and they're fine. The exact size of the bore is 3.8335 and some how the rings are too big. My machinist recomended to see if total seal sold a half size ring (25 over) and we coudl file it to size, but they dont.

Im wondering if any of you guys using gapless rings experienced anything like this with the ring gaps.

One thing he recomended was to use the top and oil ring from the total seal set and to buy a regular 'moly' ring for the second ring....but that totaly defeats the purpose of buying the expensive 'gapless' set! arggg....help? :(

Mike8675309
08-16-2005, 10:09 PM
It was my (mis?) understanding that the Total seal rings use a standard type top ring, a split pair of rings that are positioned in a way so the gaps are opposite each other, then due to their design they are not able to turn together.

Then a standard low tension bottom ring.

Is that not what you're finding?

I'd work directly with Total Seal on any questions.

CaifanSC
08-16-2005, 10:43 PM
Yeah, the 'gapless' system only consists of a gapless second ring (at least in this application)....the top ring and oil rings are the same. My problem seem sto be weird b/c i've read of people ordering 20 over rings and have no problems...and somehow im getting huge gaps. I hope somebody can give any suggestions or input, right now im in limbo. I shoudl be calling my machinist tomorrow to see what he says.

BlackbirdSC
08-18-2005, 12:20 AM
The top ring isn't all that far off. From the specs TS gives, .021" is recommended for the top in forced induction app and .013"-.014" on the 2nd. How you're that far off may be easily explained.

The stock bore is 3.811". 20 over would be 3.831". Every .001" in bore increase will increase ring end gap .003". So if your block is .0025" over the 'normal' value, the ring gap will be .0075" larger than it should be. Also, if your checking the gaps without a torque plate on, the distorted bore may skew the numbers more.

I wouldn't be concerned with .023" on the top ring. I would be a little concerned with the second gap though. What kind of piston-bore clearance was the block setup for? Usually, a piston is made to a size such that boring it to the 'normal' value will create the appropriate clearance. For instance, on a 4.030" bore 302 or 350 Chevy, the pistons are generally 4.0280"-4.0285" to create a minimum of .0015"-.002" clearance@4.030" bore size. Going over that size isn't generally required or recommended.

Just some ideas,
Steve

CMac89
08-18-2005, 12:54 AM
I just got done putting my whole shortblock together tonight and I got .022" gap on compression ring and .025" on the total seals.

.023" is an alright gap and only .002" away from the .021" I got from the given equation. (bore size x .0055 (blown gas)). .029" isn't too bad, it won't hurt anything from what I know in multiple experiences with rings especially total seal.

CaifanSC
08-19-2005, 02:51 PM
Ok, after talking with my machinist he also gave me similar values as to what you guys have just told me. I was going strictly by the panphlet total seal sent with the rings which say that the gap has to be somewhere between .012-022" (which are values you get even if you use the equations for blown gas applications), and being a newby at this rebuild business i got freaked out by getting values that were out of range. Specially getting .029 when the high end of what is recomeded was .022 and also after searching and finding out that other people used these rings and had absolutely no problems with the gaps. In any case, what my machinist recomended also with a supercharged application was .024 top ring and .020 on the second ring. So what im doing is getting 30 overbore piston rings from total seal and filing them down to those approximate sizes..just to make sure. My machinist also said i coudl get away with the top ring, but the second gapless ring was a bit borderline, so i rather play it safe.

I spoke to total seal and the 30 over ring is 3.840 so he said i should have no problems filing them down to the required size. So at this point im leaning towards this...what do u guys think?

sizemoremk
08-19-2005, 07:16 PM
Were you able to return the rings that didn't fit, or did ya have to buy the second set???

Did you go directly with total seal, or a vendor?

Do you mind sharing what they costed ya? My machinist has already ordered them, but I'm not sure what they costed, and I kinda want to to know how much markup the machinist is gonna put on them??

Thanks!

CaifanSC
09-23-2005, 08:13 PM
Sorry for the delay friend. IF its still any help, yes i simply exanged the rings. I bought them through summit. It took forever each time i returned them. I just got my .30 over set today. I paid $173.69.