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XR7 Dave
08-20-2005, 11:33 PM
Looking to put together a group purchase for Diamond Pistons. These pistons will be available in any configuration desired, the first 5 people to get in on this buy will establish part numbers for future SC people to be able to call us up and order pistons thereby avoiding the cost and complications for a custom piston each time a forged piston is desired.

These same people will be able to take full advantage of any and all price breaks offered by Diamond for a volume buy. Final details will be posted Monday.

So far we have 5 people interested:

Mike (Mike8675309)
Scott (Kiwikiwikiwi)
Scott (lilredstang)
Jason (Jason Wild)
Randy (Randy Baker)

I think I may have 1-2 more so it looks pretty definite.

Anyone else speak up now!

:)

Randy N Connie
08-20-2005, 11:41 PM
I am interrested. And more details.
price.
shipping date.
piston Wt.Vs stock
Rod infor to fit piston wrist pin heigth.
wrist pin style and Wt.

Thanks Randy

XxSlowpokexX
08-21-2005, 12:46 AM
The diamond pistons I bought used 351 rods. I probably have the spec sheet somewhere. As far as weight I know teh JE pistons were by far the lightest of all options I exlored

Randy N Connie
08-21-2005, 12:59 AM
Thanks Damon.I will most likely mill the backs to lighten &
balance,no matter the brand.Wrist pin Wt. is my main
consern.and if they would have a choise of different
pin styles.I can't do much in lightining hardened parts
like this.

Thanks Randy

XR7 Dave
08-21-2005, 01:21 PM
The pistons should be available in any configuration that Diamond offers. They also offer skirt and crown coatings if anyone is interested.

Pins are also available in different diameters if you want to run different rods.

I will ask about cost for different options. For example:

Skirt coatings
Crown coatings
Pin diameters (stock is .912)
Pin weights (I will weigh the stock parts)
Pin material options
pin lock materials (wire locks vrs spiral locks)
minimum compression heights
turn around time
fitment for stock connecting rods/ and others

And prices for everything.

Any other questions I need to address? I don't think I can get exact weights until the design is finalized, but I will ask. Obviously weight will vary based on some options chosen.

I am calling on Monday so I want to have all the right questions to ask them at one time.

Thanks everyone!

Jason Wild
08-21-2005, 03:48 PM
Dave,
what kind of pistons would we need if we do the stroker crank?

lilredstang
08-22-2005, 01:08 AM
So Are We Going To Be Paying Diamond Or One Of The Group Members For These?
The Name Is Scott By The Way, But If You Want To Call Me ?, Thats Cool. I'm Easy Goin. :d

XR7 Dave
08-22-2005, 01:58 AM
Payment will be made to me (SuperCoupes Unlimited), I will be buying all the pistons and in turn shipping them to you.

Jason, stroker pistons will be made based on desired stroke and rod length. This will be a custom piston in any configuration you want.

XR7 Dave
08-24-2005, 09:45 AM
Ok guys, here is the low down.

Options available:

Any compression height you'd want. 6.2" rods would require a 1.3" compression height on the 3.8. Minimum compression height is 1.0".

Compression ratio is a function of chamber size / gasket / and deck height. Most any configuration is available, chamber will be a D shape to match the heads. Valve reliefs will be cut for 1.94" intake valves.

Cost for pistons is $77/ea

Pins (.912") are available seperately in 4130, tool steel, and thinwall tool steel. Cost is 9.75/ea standard and $15.80/ea for tool steel

Ceramic top coatings and moly skirt coatings are available. $21.50 and $15 respectively.

All overbore sizes are available.

Production should take 3 weeks and I'd like to place the order within the next couple days.

Ring package is 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 or 1mm, 1mm, 3mm moly only. No other options are available from Diamond. Cost is $96.40/set and $150/set respectively.

All prices are + shipping. This price is the exact cost of the pistons and options. I am taking no markup whatsoever on this group buy. This will not be repeated so if you want them now is the time to step up.

Please email me with your exact requirements right away. Friday am is the deadline to have your money in.

XR7 Dave
08-24-2005, 09:52 AM
So for example, a set of pistons with pins would be $520+ shipping.

Mike8675309
08-24-2005, 10:44 PM
Do you maybe want to start a thread on "decisions, decisions... optimum forged pistons".

How to get you the money? Do you really want to paypal that? I wonder what the cost of a bank transfer would be?

i.e. what are the best most reasonably priced rods that could work with these pistons? How do I know what compression height I want?


Stuff like that. i'm going to see if I can get my block down to the machine shop this week to at least get dimensions off it to determine the overside on the pistons required.

XR7 Dave
08-24-2005, 11:49 PM
Compression height is a function of rod length. Gotta decide on the rods first.

Overbore I'd go with .030. That will be a safe number regardless of what condition the block is in.

For paypal you'd have to ad 3% ($15 roughly). I will accept cashier's check if you have it sent via Fed Ex or other trackable service. Bank transfers suck.

XR7 Dave
08-24-2005, 11:53 PM
I have a set of (8) 351W I-Beam rods with ARP Waveloc bolts by CAT that are brand new I'll sell you for $150 shipped. They will be plenty strong for up to 500rwhp.

seawalkersee
08-25-2005, 12:46 AM
Thats a hell of a deal for a rotating assy. Under 700 for 500+hp...I wish I was not poor. Hint hint.

Chris

lilredstang
08-25-2005, 09:20 AM
I have a set of (8) 351W I-Beam rods with ARP Waveloc bolts by CAT that are brand new I'll sell you for $150 shipped. They will be plenty strong for up to 500rwhp.

I may be interested in the 351W rods, but I gotta scrape up the $ for the pistons first :rolleyes:

Mike8675309
08-25-2005, 02:35 PM
Gotta decide on the rods first.


What would be the motiviation to go with the 6.2 rods over the stock 5.996 rod length?

I believe it may be related to piston speed at high rpm. using a chart and spreadsheet found here http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/engine-tech/rod-ratio/kin2.htm

Stock Crank stroke of 87 mm (3.40in) and stock 351 rods of 144.25mm (5.956in) you get a max velocity for the piston of 28.86 and acceleration of the piston max at 23m/s^2

Go to the 6.2" rod and you get max velocity of 28.81 and acceleration of 22.8m/s^2

Now I'm not knowlegeable enough to know if this spreadsheet applies directly to our engine. Crank design may play a role in the calculations. These are numbers at 6200rpm as well.

So should I be thinking the longer rod to help control piston speed at higher rpm? This motor will likely get the Autorotor with plans for sustained visits slightly above 6000k.

Mike8675309
08-25-2005, 02:54 PM
Note found a great explination of rod length preferences from Vernon back in 2003 ... kinda miss that guy.

http://sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23811&highlight=deck+height

I'm planing on 6.2 rods then. I'll pickup some H-beam rods later. Just a couple more questions. (I'll send money via paybal I guess)

How do the Diamond coatings compair to Swain Tech? I've only heard of Swain Tech talked about very positively.

If I'm going to go .030 over, what kind of issues are there related to skirt coatings regarding sidewall clearance?

And rings...not being a engine builder, what's the difference between the two items, and what are your thoughts on how these may compare with a set from Total Seal?

Will the pistons come with lock rings?

XR7 Dave
08-25-2005, 03:40 PM
People who are actively responding include Mike, Scott, Scott, and myself. That's 4. I need another or it won't happen. We have to have 5 people before I can take any money.

I don't know about the coatings. As with the whole "Whipple vrs. Autorotor" discussion I'm sure there are people who could present an argument for either one. I have no idea but I think the a ceramic coating would be a big plus if you plan to run nitrous or extreme boost or WOT for a sustained period of time.

I can ask about the skirt coatings and clearance concerns.

I think for my money I'm going with Total Seal rings. Just my .02. The more expensive rings from Diamond are thinner low tension rings which I would probably not use in a forced induction motor.

FYI

Stock rods are 5.915
351W rods are 5.955

Both are good rods, longer is better but the shorter the piston gets the less stability in the bore. I don't think there is a huge advantage one way or the other. I'm planning to go 6.125" but I could go with the 5.955 just as easily.

I'm sure the pistons will come with the locks, but I'll check.

David

Randy N Connie
08-25-2005, 04:08 PM
Dave do you still have a set of the cat rods.

Thanks Randy

XR7 Dave
08-25-2005, 04:19 PM
Yes I do. I'll add them to your tab -er - credit if you want them. :)

Mike8675309
08-25-2005, 05:19 PM
I'll research rods some more tonight. What alloy are the pistons made up of? Rate of expansion will impact how tight we can make the cylinder and with the skirt coatings we may be able to tweak that a bit to gain piston stability with the longer rod.

Everything I've read thus far shows pretty significant gains for longer rods. Especially when considering things like static compression ratio. I don't want to go crazy, but I don't want to be kicking myself later. I guess it's just about finding a balance.

Have you thrown this over into the v6power.net forums at all? I would think some of the 3.8 guys over there may have an interest.

Tomorrow AM still drop dead, or do you want to move it to Monday? I'll get the money to you regardless and you can just return it if the stuff falls through.

Jason Wild
08-25-2005, 05:20 PM
Dave.
I'm still intrested in this but I have somethings to ask
Do you happen to know what the tool steel is that they would be useing for pins.

seawalkersee
08-25-2005, 05:32 PM
There are other things to consider with longer rods. Sure you slow the piston down and add your compression. However the biggest gain I have ever thought of from running a longer rod would be the ability to have the piston parked longer at TDC and BDC. You could really open up a ton of new cam profiles with this sort of thing. Extra filling in the cyl and extra evac on top could give some good gains.

Chris

lilredstang
08-25-2005, 05:33 PM
So did diamond say friday was the cutoff? I can't speak for anyone else, but if it came down to waiting a few more days or no GB, then I could wait. It is saving me some $$ so I cant complain too much. Plus thats another paycheck between me and broke. :D MY $0.02

lilredstang
08-25-2005, 05:59 PM
I am having the block bored 30 over and plan on using the 5.996?? 351W rods.
Here is what I am thinking, but feel free to correct me if I am off a bit.
bore 3.840
compression height 1.560
compression ratio 8.5:1
but what size rings????

XR7 Dave
08-25-2005, 07:22 PM
Friday is not a drop dead date. What I'm looking for is to have the interested parties step up, ask their questions, and get on with it. I'll wait till Monday.

I will ask tomorrow about alloys and weights. I forgot to ask that the first time.

For rings I'd recommend the standard size (1/16, 1/16, 3/16) or 1,1,4mm if you are going with Total Seal.

Randy N Connie
08-25-2005, 07:41 PM
David D.
Ok I am back on the wagon.
Send me the following.

6 pistons, stock compressoin ratio, ..030 +.
6 of the lightest wrist pins .
6 cat rods, with bolts.
NO RINGS,Going with Totalseal rings.

When you get time send me a E-mail on my cost + shipping

My New beefed-up Lentech shipped out today.Should get it
in 4 days. So I hope to have it install by next Wednesday or
Thursday.

Thanks Randy

lilredstang
08-25-2005, 08:43 PM
Friday is not a drop dead date. What I'm looking for is to have the interested parties step up, ask their questions, and get on with it. I'll wait till Monday.

I will ask tomorrow about alloys and weights. I forgot to ask that the first time.

For rings I'd recommend the standard size (1/16, 1/16, 3/16) or 1,1,4mm if you are going with Total Seal.

TOTAL SEAL DOESN'T HAVE THE 1/16 1/16 3/16 RINGS??? ARE THE TOOL STEEL PINS REALLY NEEDED??? I DON'T WANT TO OVERKILL , BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE A CHEEPA$$ AND BE SORRY FOR IT LATER. THAT WOULD SUCK!!! I'D LIKE THE SHORT BLOCK TO BE CAPABLE OF 450-500HP. NOT THAT I WILL TAKE THE POWER THAT FAR, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW.

Mike8675309
08-25-2005, 09:11 PM
The assumption is the pistons are setup for full floating. The benefit of the Tool Steel is that they can have thinner walls and thus be lighter. Lighter is better especially when considerinig the need to raise RPM's in our motors to take the best advantage of the newer blowers coming out.

XR7 Dave
08-25-2005, 09:20 PM
Regarding wrist pins. Diamond does not recommend the lightweight pins for forced induction. That doesn't mean they can't be used, just that they don't recommend it. Tool steel pins are available in stock thickness or thin wall, same price.

Are tool steel pins needed? Someone else could better answer that one.

As for the rings, stock is 1.5,1.5,4mm which is why Total Seal uses that size. Sorry I posted the wrong size above. As for Diamond offering 1/16, 1/16, 3/16, I don't know. I'll ask.

FYI

1.5mm = 0.0590551 inch
1/16" = 0.0625 inch

3/16" = 0.1875 inch
4.0mm = 0.1574803 inch

Jason Wild
08-25-2005, 09:38 PM
tool steel can be anything thats used to make tools I can make a list here but I dont think thats need.
So un tell Dave can find out what there useing we will not know whats better.

Mike8675309
08-25-2005, 09:46 PM
Dave,

Reading this article makes me think that any change in rod length is going to call for a hard look at the optimum cam. Optimum for a 6.0 rod length and a given head may not be optimum for a stock rod length for the same head.

http://hotrod.com/techarticles/18218/

XR7 Dave
08-26-2005, 08:39 AM
Mike,

If someone has the capability of properly matching cam profile to our motors in the first place then adjusting for rod length is going to be easy. The fact that no one has done an accurate job of the first part makes it a little tough to move on to the second part.

Frankly I believe there are a couple main things that demand precedence with cam selection and by necessity the rest of the parameters just have to fall where they may (to an extent). There is only so much you can do with a cam profile being that there is only one lobe profile/valve.

Randy N Connie
08-26-2005, 08:47 AM
David D. here is my answer about the rods.I don't think
I can afford the rods right now.So If its ok,I would like
to back out of the rod deal.Maybe lilredstang can buy
them.Thats a great price for them.

THANKS RANDY

lilredstang
08-26-2005, 01:19 PM
David D. here is my answer about the rods.I don't think
I can afford the rods right now.So If its ok,I would like
to back out of the rod deal.Maybe lilredstang can buy
them.Thats a great price for them.

THANKS RANDY

WERE THOSE THE 5.9" RODS? WOULD THEY LOOK DEAD SEXY WITH THE DIAMOND PISTONS? HMMM, I THINK SO! IF YOU DONT MIND WAITING TILL MY NEXT PAYDAY. OH HEY THAT REMINDS ME. ARE WE GETTING PISTONS?

ROLLCALL...WHO IS STILL IN?

IF WE NEED ANOTHER PERSON CANT WE JUST CHECK THE FORUMS FOR WHO IS DOING A REBUILD AND CONVINCE THEM THAT THE NEED THESE :D PEERPRESURE IS A POWERFUL FORCE!!!! I KNOW..IM EVIL..I WAS BORN THAT WAY.

Mike8675309
08-26-2005, 02:09 PM
I'm in. Just need to decide on rod length so I can offer a compression height. I'll likely go with just the pistons and pickup the wrist pins when I order the rods.

Can you get me the wall thickness of their tool steel pins? I'm curious what it is for them if they don't recommend it for supercharged or NOS applications.

I understand regarding the cam. You and I will probably need to work with Comp Cams to figure something out that's optimum once I get the heads done. I'm sure I'll be going with a new blank.

XR7 Dave
08-26-2005, 03:21 PM
Keeping this alive, we have:

Mike, definite.
Scott, definite.
Scott, definite.
Randy, definite.
David, definite.
Jason, I gave him the weekend to decide.

So we have 5 people. Go ahead and send your money in. Shipping costs are not that important right now. Send $35 for shipping (remember these have to come to me and then be shipped out). If there is extra on the shipping I'll refund the difference.

Mike, the pins are .155 standard and .110 thinwall.

XR7 Dave
08-26-2005, 03:48 PM
Ok, a quick look at the website www.diamondracing.net will answer most of the questions that people have had about these.

Pin materials are:

4130 Chrome Moly
H-13 Tool Steel
9310 Alloy

For us the size is .912 x 2.75" and while they don't list all the sizes on the website, they do have the Tool Steel in .155 and .115 wall for us.

Piston material is a matter of choice. You can go with a low expansion (4032 alloy) or for nitrous or extreme boost the 2618 alloy. You must choose. Typically they recommend the 2618 for boost over 10psi but as we all know we run much more than that on factory pistons. The choice is yours.

Skirt coatings will not affect bore size tolerances.

There is a form on their website for custom order pistons. Please go to that form and fill one out for your application and email it to me. mdkracing@alltel.net. Any questions post them here and we will all try to help you out.

Mike8675309
08-26-2005, 04:12 PM
It's www.diamondracing.net.

paypal I assum to your e-mail address. The order form is a bit complex. I.E. final bore and all that. Will you be filling in the blanks for us?

XR7 Dave
08-26-2005, 04:52 PM
Final bore would be standard + .030. Once you have the pistons in hand then your machinist measures the pistons and bores to the exact clearance that you want to run. The block is always final bored after pistons are in hand.

Fill in all the info you know, then post specific questions here. Chances are you will have the same questions as others.

Mike8675309
08-26-2005, 05:28 PM
I'm going to need a lot of help. Here are the questions I need answers to. Or tell me which ones I don't need to bother with.

With .030 pistons and 6.125 rods.

Finished Bore Size? Not necessary is it, as I'll determine that with the pistons in hand? Or do I put something there?
Stroke: 3.4" right?
Rod Length: 6.125" right?
Compression Distance: How would I calculate this?
Block Deck Height: Book says 9.2"
Piston to Deck: What would this number be?
Piston Type: Are we flat top with reliefs, or Dish?
Ring Groove Info: What is our specs for top, 2nd and oil?
Valve Pocket Info: Intake Depth, exhaust depth, valve angle, valve spacing, valve diameters?
Pin Lock Type: What pin lock type do you suggest?
Chamber Volume: Book shows 61.2cm^3 is that accurate?
Head Gasket #'s Do we need these? Do you know what the MLS or felpro numbers are?
Angle Cut Degree or Amount of Cut?
Rod Info: What are the small end and thickness above the pin for common 351 rods?
skirt shape: What shape are we going to want for ours?

I guess that's about it.

money is sent.

XR7 Dave
08-26-2005, 07:10 PM
I'm going to need a lot of help. Here are the questions I need answers to. Or tell me which ones I don't need to bother with.

With .030 pistons and 6.125 rods.

Finished Bore Size? Not necessary is it, as I'll determine that with the pistons in hand? Or do I put something there?

This is necessary. They need to know the target overbore size - .020, .030, .040 etc. Stock bore is 3.81 for reference.



Stroke: 3.4" right?

Not exactly. 3.39" ;)



Rod Length: 6.125" right?

If that is what you want, then yes.



Compression Distance: How would I calculate this?
Deck height - rod length - 1/2 stroke - desired piston to deck clearance = compression height.



Block Deck Height: Book says 9.2"

Get a new book! lol Seriously you can't round off numbers like that. Deck height is 9.232 (theoretic, actual will vary). You will have to measure yours and then have the block decked to a specific value. I will go with 9.220 on mine. This leaves plenty of room to square the deck (they are never square) and put on an RA30 finish. Intake manifold will need to be trimmed an equal amount to match.



Piston to Deck: What would this number be?

Minimum piston to head clearance is .035". Most gaskets are .040" thick but they can vary. I will be running 0.000" deck clearance.



Piston Type: Are we flat top with reliefs, or Dish?

Dish. (flat tops would give 10:1 compression and more like 10.5:1 if you run 0 deck clearance.



Ring Groove Info: What is our specs for top, 2nd and oil?

OE is 1.5/1.5/4mm. Select your rings first, that will have impact on what you end up running.



Valve Pocket Info: Intake Depth, exhaust depth, valve angle, valve spacing, valve diameters?

I believe that Diamond has the basic layout of the piston orientation on file. You need to know what diameter valves you are using or at least will want to specify something larger than the largest you will be using.



Pin Lock Type: What pin lock type do you suggest?

It's up to you. There are different designs and each has benefits. Do a little checking.



Chamber Volume: Book shows 61.2cm^3 is that accurate?

Unless your heads have been milled or chambers modified....For a performance engine the chambers should be checked.



Head Gasket #'s Do we need these? Do you know what the MLS or felpro numbers are?

If you are running forged pistons I sure as all heck HOPE you are running MLS. I don't know the exact crushed thickness. I've heard .040".



Angle Cut Degree or Amount of Cut?

This is the angle of the cut. Heads can be cut at an angle to improve flow. I don't imagine this will be a factor for any of us.



Rod Info: What are the small end and thickness above the pin for common 351 rods?[quote]

Depends. 6.125 is not a stock 351W rod so you need to either check with the manufacturer or measure them.

[quote]
skirt shape: What shape are we going to want for ours?

Unless anyone has any better ideas, I will leave this up to Diamond.



I guess that's about it.

Whew!

lilredstang
08-26-2005, 08:42 PM
what pin lock type should i choose?

XR7 Dave
08-26-2005, 08:57 PM
I don't know. My engine guy says that wire locks are best. They charge $2/pin extra for them. I guess I'll go with wire locks. The OE 95 SC rods had wire locks.

lilredstang
08-26-2005, 09:10 PM
head gasket bore dia.? any one know?

lilredstang
08-26-2005, 09:15 PM
~~~!!! bore length!?!? how am I supposed to get that? my block is locked up in the machine shop till monday!! :confused:

XR7 Dave
08-26-2005, 09:41 PM
Headgasket bore is 3.90"

Block bore length is 5.375" (by my ruler)

BT Motorsports
08-26-2005, 10:04 PM
David, Diamond will drop ship if you ask them.

Paul

Mike8675309
08-26-2005, 11:02 PM
Dave,

I'd like to have you do the heads so I look to you for thoughts on the valves. I just haven't talked with you about what we'll do as I want the auto rotor on this motor. The only reason why I'm jumping on pistons now is because now is the time. I won't be ready to build this block and do heads until December. (Note my book was the spec sheets off the tech articles pages here, those factory pdf files. Alldata seems to show better numbers like you showed)

Have you considered taking the piston above the deck? Re the article with the comments by Vernon, he seemed to feel .0015 above deck was more than safe and beneficial.

I'm going with Total Seal rings. So 1.5mm/1.5mm/4mm is correct I believe. What would the radial widths be or is that not important?

Regarding the chamber volume. Do they need that information if we are specifying a standard piston top structure and can finalize chamber volume when the deck hights are adjusted and all? I just don't have a method to measure that currently.

Thanks for your help.

o.k. another thing. Alldata shows 2.4266-2.4274 crank bearing diameter. How does that work when figuring out big end size on the rod? Eagle stock 351 rods have a listing of 2.310, but their longer sizes all show 2.100. That seems a tad small to me. Big end width also worries me with the longer rods at .940 up from .8135 for the stock length. I'm wondering more and more if I'm asking for trouble with going longer...

Another item... Pin lock type. Round wire says see pin chamfer. Is that just a note on that pins must be chamfered for use with these?

Randy N Connie
08-27-2005, 12:13 PM
I have given this some long thought.

I am not able to keep a trans in my car.
Now I find out that I have been splitting the transmission cases.
The last two.

I have been tring to get my car tuned for over two years now.

So as I see it ,it is senseless to be building a higher horse powered
SC engine.

So I have no interrest in purchasing better pistons for another motor
build up.I have no way to tune.I have maybe my problems cured with
my trans issues.I am told.I don't beleive they are.Especially if I am
going to apply more HP to a AOD.

With the trans and tuning issues.There is no sence in going any farther
with this type power for this car.

If your wanting to build a 500 rwhp SC .I have every part needed
except pistons,rods,cam,I have from the blower to the bottom of
the block all new parts.The way things are going for me.An not
being able to get the car running right.I will be putting up for sale
soon.

RANDY

Mike8675309
08-27-2005, 01:24 PM
Sorry, not a pharmisist.... Keep in mind my 500rwhp motor will be attached to a 5 speed trans and will be tuned by XR7 Dave. It's also going to take a good 4 years to get there. But ya gotta start inside the motor, so you gotta get pistons.

from the perspective of someone building for under 400rwhp. I'd still be interested in this deal as this gives the opportunity for some much stronger rods and a nominal price increase above using stock replacement Sealed Power pistons.

Besides people using questionable or no tunes with their high powered bolt ons, rods are the next big weakness in our bottom end.

I'm still conteplating piston material. I'd prefer the less expansion to allow tighter tollerances.

lilredstang
08-27-2005, 03:18 PM
Known Gasket Volume?
Small End Width Of 351 Rod And Thickness Above Pin?
Support Rail?

XR7 Dave
08-27-2005, 03:35 PM
Well, if Randy doesn't want a set then we are down to 4 committed to buy which is not enough. Jason is the 5th person here and he has not said that he is definite.

Wire locks require machining which costs $2/pin more.

Mike, you will have to find a 2.311 rod or you can't use it. You cannot use a 2.100 rod. Scat has 2.311 rods as do some others.

People have used 6.2 rods and in fact you could go longer in theory but sometimes moderation is best. Due to the small bore of the motor many engine builders recommend not getting too carried away with rod length. I am using 6.125 in mine.

I don't know the small end width nor the height above the pin. However I do know that stock rods have a lot of material above the pin whereas aftermarket rods are pretty darn thin. Stock rods have a big lump of metal up there that they shave off for balancing.

Guys I'm leaving and won't be back now until Tuesday at the soonest. Try to answer your own questions by calling connecting rod manufacturers or checking websites.

Also, unless we get 4 people (in addition to myself) this won't go through. Lets get the rest of these questions answered best we can and I will call Diamond when I get back to confirm any remaining questions.

People paid:

Mike.

XR7 Dave
08-27-2005, 03:36 PM
Known Gasket Volume?
Small End Width Of 351 Rod And Thickness Above Pin?
Support Rail?

I think if you just have the thickness and diameter you'll be ok.

We need data on the rod ends. Diamond may have this depending on the rod, but in our case I doubt it's going to be a problem because we are not using super low compression heights.

I don't know about the support rail at all. ?

Mike8675309
08-27-2005, 07:49 PM
I'll be calling both Diamond and Eagle/Scat and maybe others. on Monday to review my questions and try to get a reasoning behind why one might choose this version of material or that version.

I'm sure these guys are very intelligent and I think the main issue for myself is my really wanting to have a street capable machine that has more than enough power on weekends.

We've gotta drum up a couple more folks. This is a great opportunity for the SC owners.

XxSlowpokexX
08-27-2005, 10:04 PM
The standard lenght 351 rod (5.965)with a custom piston application has been the standard for year swith building upour motors. If you go to use a 6.125 rog I believ eyou will have to offset grind your crank.

As far as material for the pistons..If you go forged your motor will have to be built looser to take into consideration the expansion of the piston.

A Hypertectic does not expand nearly as much as a forged. You get less engine noise(No piston slap at warmup) and can run tighter clearences.

However forged will hold up better to high HP applications.

That being said on a v8 of mine *supercharged" I'd bend a rods before I melted a piston.

Mike8675309
08-27-2005, 11:15 PM
Why do you feel you'd need to offset grind anything if you're getting pistons made to fit? That doesn't make sense to me. If you're willing to run the pin under the oil ring you should be able to go even longer than 6.2 long rods with no crank change.

The issue with the piston material is the question of 2618 or 4032 forgings. Diamond doesn't make cast pistons. 2618 requires even more room for expansion than the 4032 and Diamond is recommending 2618 for our application.

lilredstang
08-28-2005, 02:56 AM
Why do you feel you'd need to offset grind anything if you're getting pistons made to fit? That doesn't make sense to me. If you're willing to run the pin under the oil ring you should be able to go even longer than 6.2 long rods with no crank change.

The issue with the piston material is the question of 2618 or 4032 forgings. Diamond doesn't make cast pistons. 2618 requires even more room for expansion than the 4032 and Diamond is recommending 2618 for our application.


YEP HE IS RIGHT. THEY SAY 2618 FOR NOS OR BIG BOOST. I WILL TRUST THAT THEY KNOW WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE DOING, SINCE I WAS CLUELESS ON 25% OF THE QUESTIONS ON THEIR ORDER FORM AND THEY HAVE BEEN THE BIZ FOR A FEW YEARS.

I SAY THAT SINCE THE TEACHER(DAVE) WILL BE GONE. THAT WE DO A BIT OF "CHEATING". ;) POST A QUICK SUMMERY OF WHAT YOU WANT TO DO(5.956 RODS, SAFE TO 6000 RPM, BORE .030 OVER, CAPABLE OF 500HP) ECT. THEN LIST YOUR "ANSWERS" THAT YOU WROTE ON THE ORDER FORM. MAYBE SOMEONE WILL CATCH A BLUNDER AND SAVE SOMEBODY ELSE A SERIOUS PAIN IN THE A$$. IT MAY ALSO GIVE US AN IDEA OF WHAT QUESTIONS WE NEED TO ANSWER. JUST A THOUGHT. :D

Mike8675309
08-29-2005, 12:56 PM
Well I'm bummed that we may not have 5 people though my money is already sent. Here is my list of items based on a converstation with Mike at Diamond this morning. Still waiting on hearing back from Scat regarding the rod info.

Finished Bore Size: 3.84" (Stock 3.81 + .030 over)
Stroke: 3.39"
Rod Length: 6.2"
Compression Distance: 1.326"

How do i figure out the compression distance (this is the distance from the center of the wrist pin to the top of the piston crown)?
Take your Rod Length and add it to 1/2 the stroke of the SC motor (Stroke is 3.39, 1/2 is 1.695)
Then subtract Piston to Deck clearance you want. (Stock clearance is .0215 below the deck)
Then subtract the total from your finished block height. Stock block height is 9.232 but you need to consider the resizing that may occur due to decking.
I'm using what Dave mentioned, 9.22 as a calculation point. The deck can be brought down to that when machined. Head gasket thickness will also impact this.

For a 6.2 rod with the piston coming slightly above deck the calcuation is:
9.22 - (6.2 + 1.695 - .001) = 1.326 compression distance. (Stock is 1.602)

Block Deck Height: 9.22


Stock SC Block Deck Height is 9.232. Final deck height will be dermined by your machinst when decking the block. For purposes of pistons, assume .012 lost when squaring the deck giving a 9.22 deck height for piston ordering.
Piston to Deck Height: .001 Above the Deck


This is how far above or below the block deck you want the piston to travel.
Stock is about .0215 below the deck.
The closer to the actual deck, and in some cases over it, the better the "quench" of the gases entering the engine. This can help to deter engine knock and improve combustion efficency. Manufacturing tollerances from the factory help determine the stock height.

I'll be going slightly above the deck. .010. You could easily zero the deck... which means a deck hight of -0-.

Length of Cylinder: 5.375"
Piston Type: DISH
Ring Groove Info:
Top: 1.5mm
Second: 1.5mm
Oil: 4 mm


Standard sizes are 1.5mm, 1.5mm, 4mm which are slightly thinner than the 1/16, 1/16, 3/16.
The available Total Seal rings are the 1.5/1.5/4mm.
Being thinner they don't apply quite as much pressure on the cylinder walls.

Rings with Order: NO
Valve Pocket Information
Intake Valve Diam: 1.84"
Exhaust Valve Diam: 1.60"
Wrist Pin Info:
Diameter: .912" Length: 2.75"
Wall thickness: .155
Pin Lock Type: Double Spiral


It really depends on the engine builder. Round wire is stock and is more difficult to install. Double spiral is about as good and is easier to install.

Desired Compression Ratio: 9 to 1


With the longer rods, and slightly above deck location for the piston, quench should be increased and support a higher compression ratio than stock configuration.

Chamber Volume: Stock is 61.2cc (this will be changed by any porting done on your heads - this number helps Diamond shape your piston head for the given compression ratio.)
Comp. Gasket: .040 (standard)
Gasket bore Dia.: 3.9"
Angle Cut: NO
Rod Information
Material: Steel
Small End Width: ???? (not yet received)
Thickness above pin: ???? (not yet received)
Piston Material: 2618
Skirt shape: Profiled Side (This is basicaly a stock design. more of a preference than anything)

If anything looks wrong or you have a question why I chose this rather than that.. just ask.

Mike8675309
08-29-2005, 02:16 PM
One item I did talk to them about, and one Item I forgot that we may want to know bout.

#1 - colapsed skirts in forged pistons. It was brought to my attention that many custom pistons are designed with an out of round shape geared towards higher rpm use than what is going to be typical in our cars. This out of round shape is needed due to the expansion of the material as it heats and forces in the engine work on it. The oval shape is due to the less growth that occurs along the wrist pin line.

If the out of round shape is designed to be round again at 6000RPM and above, we could find our selves with possibly out of tollerance pistons while we cruise around at 4000-5000 rpm.

I addressed this with Diamond and he said it wasn't an issue. But I do think it's something we want to make sure they are clearly aware of.

#2 - I forgot to ask about detonation grooves being cut into the piston above the first ring. Current technology pistons have seen improvements in controlling detonation and improving engine efficiency by cutting grooves into the piston. Is this something Diamond does? I didn't see it in their extra machining operations and I don't kow if it would apply that much to my pistons which are going to go above deck slighty. But it's something to consider. (See thiese wiseco pistons here:http://extremev6racing.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=1330)

lilredstang
08-29-2005, 02:31 PM
Is everyone getting a different piston? What rods are everyone using? This is a verrrry long shot, but I wonder if we all agreed on a piston if we could still get a deal. It would be easier for diamond to cut 24 of the same piston than 6 one way 6 another 6 that way ect. If we cant find number 5 then its worth a shot. Long shot. I hate to say this , but the clock is ticking and itching to do some wrenchi'n. If nothing happens by friday then I'm starting piston shopping again. :(

I'm using 5.956" 351w rods.

Mike8675309
08-29-2005, 04:36 PM
Last report from Dave is that the deal is coming because if he can get 5 units ordered, he can become a "dealer" and give the low price to us. The price he's given us thus far is a "cost" price. I.E. it's his cost and doesn't represent any traditional mark-up that any other dealer would be adding into things.

The item in common with these pistons will be the combustion chamber design. After that, any variations are simple for them and their CNC program. I.E. Bore, Pin placement are not complex adjustments to make as long as we can agree on all the basic structure elements of the pistons.

Since all custom pistons are "machined" regardless of the qty, there is no savings in "machine" cost by having more identical items made. The only savings would be in setup costs, and the parts that are optional on our pistons incurr no additional setup costs.

So your 5.956 rods are fine.

For 5.956 rods using stock piston to deck height (.0215 below) you'd have a compression distance of 1.5475 assuming the block is decked down to around 9.22 for the final finish.

lilredstang
08-29-2005, 05:55 PM
Last report from Dave is that the deal is coming because if he can get 5 units ordered, he can become a "dealer" and give the low price to us. The price he's given us thus far is a "cost" price. I.E. it's his cost and doesn't represent any traditional mark-up that any other dealer would be adding into things.

The item in common with these pistons will be the combustion chamber design. After that, any variations are simple for them and their CNC program. I.E. Bore, Pin placement are not complex adjustments to make as long as we can agree on all the basic structure elements of the pistons.

Since all custom pistons are "machined" regardless of the qty, there is no savings in "machine" cost by having more identical items made. The only savings would be in setup costs, and the parts that are optional on our pistons incurr no additional setup costs.

So your 5.956 rods are fine.

For 5.956 rods using stock piston to deck height (.0215 below) you'd have a compression distance of 1.5475 assuming the block is decked down to around 9.22 for the final finish.


I'D LIKE TO ZERO DECK SO THAT WOULD BE 1.569 COMPRESSION DISTANCE IF I AM CORRECT. 3.840 BORE FOR MY 30 OVER BLOCK. STILL WONDERING ABOUT THE COMPRESSION RATIO. 8.5 TO 1 SOUNDS SAFE , BUT I AM RUNNING 9.5 TO 1 AND 17PSI ON MY TURBO 2.3L MUSTANG AND THATS WITH THE STOCK HYPERPATHETIC PISTIONS. YES ITS A NONTURBO BLOCK THAT EVERYONE SAID WOULD BLOW AFTER 3 WEEKS. THAT WAS 3 YEARS AND 30,000 MILES AGO. SO I GUESS IT CAM BE DONE.

Mike8675309
08-29-2005, 06:10 PM
I'D LIKE TO ZERO DECK SO THAT WOULD BE 1.569 COMPRESSION DISTANCE IF I AM CORRECT. 3.840 BORE FOR MY 30 OVER BLOCK. STILL WONDERING ABOUT THE COMPRESSION RATIO. 8.5 TO 1 SOUNDS SAFE , BUT i AM RUNNING 9.5 TO 1 AND 17PSI ON MY TURBO 2.3L MUSTANG AND THATS WITH THE STOCK HYPERPATHETIC PISTIONS. YES ITS A NONTURBO BLOCK THAT EVERYONE SAID WOULD BLOW AFTER 3 WEEKS. THAT WAS 3 YEARS AND 30,000 MILES AGO. SO i GUESSIT CAM BE DONE.

That's what my numbers show, as long as you work with your machinist to achieve a finished block height of 9.22" That's the final variable that'll be determined by the machine work necessary.

Compression ratio is a function of many things. One of the things Dave said he was going to work with them on was a good piston design to deal with ideal quenching. This would even out and improve the combustion process to cut down dramatically on opportunities for detonation. The zeroing the deck improves quench as well.

I'm going 9 to 1 with the assumption that with the cam I'll have to order I'll be able to get a reasonable street/strip tune from Dave and still run 92 octane fuel. (I'll probably go with the multi-tune chip though so I can have one tune for 110 octane race fuel) This is also with an assumed 20+ psi of boost. Note that I talked to Slysc (dan) and he's running right around 9 to 1 without an issue. (he posted in the thread I linked to on page 1 and has 6.2" rods with the higher compression ratio)

Well even if this deal doesn't occur, at least I've learned tons of stuff for when I do get some pistons made.

Jason Wild
08-29-2005, 11:35 PM
this is not the best time for me to be buying this stuff as I need a new Rad now it looks like and a tuner as well.
At the same time I'm not sure where I want to go with the motor stroker or kept it 3.8. :confused:
I hope some one steps up other then me. :)

Randy N Connie
08-30-2005, 07:51 AM
If we cant find number 5 then its worth a shot. Long shot. I hate to say this , but the clock is ticking and itching to do some wrenchi'n. If nothing happens by friday then I'm starting piston shopping again. :(

I'm using 5.956" 351w rods.

I am going to buy a set of pistons,

RANDY

lilredstang
08-30-2005, 10:00 AM
this is not the best time for me to be buying this stuff as I need a new Rad now it looks like and a tuner as well.
At the same time I'm not sure where I want to go with the motor stroker or kept it 3.8. :confused:
I hope some one steps up other then me. :)

Come on. Its time to cowboy up. Lets get this show on the road guys. If the rad. is the prob. I still have mine. Its the all metal one and I may be tempted to cut you a good deal on it if this whole piston thing speeds up. ;)

lilredstang
08-31-2005, 01:55 PM
I am going to buy a set of pistons,

RANDY


Same here but Dave aint back yet and we still need #5! I'm not sure how the rest of you feel, but I'm waiting till others pay-up before I do. These pistons aren't cheep and I hate to hold up that amount $$ for an unknown amount of time. I also have a tendancy to do stupid stuff that costs me $$$ when I have none. Add all this up and this frog WILL jump but not until the last minute.

Mike8675309
08-31-2005, 02:35 PM
Dave's got my money already... If the deal falls through the money will get re-directed towards the relief down south.

XR7 Dave
08-31-2005, 04:56 PM
Guys, I'm back finally! So far I have money in hand from only one person. I owe Randy money so that part is ok, but I need to get details from him about exactly what he wants. This does make 5 people so we can go ahead. Get me your money tomorrow with all your specs if I don't already have them. Best thing is to send me your email (I don't have yours lilred) so I can send you each a spec sheet on your pistons. You'll need to confirm it and send money before the order will be placed. This group buy will happen/not happen in the next 2 days so I don't keep you guys hanging any longer.

Thanks!

lilredstang
08-31-2005, 08:12 PM
Guys, I'm back finally! So far I have money in hand from only one person. I owe Randy money so that part is ok, but I need to get details from him about exactly what he wants. This does make 5 people so we can go ahead. Get me your money tomorrow with all your specs if I don't already have them. Best thing is to send me your email (I don't have yours lilred) so I can send you each a spec sheet on your pistons. You'll need to confirm it and send money before the order will be placed. This group buy will happen/not happen in the next 2 days so I don't keep you guys hanging any longer.

Thanks!

YO DAVE....ITS LILREDSTANG@AOL.COM. SO YOU WANT ME TO SCAN THE PISTON ORDERFORM AND EMAIL IT TO YOU?

Mike8675309
08-31-2005, 09:38 PM
Yep, that's what he wants.

I'll be e-mailing him my altered PDF document in the morning. Send that money guys. Let's get this ball rolling.

welcome back dave.

lilredstang
08-31-2005, 10:02 PM
:D
Yep, that's what he wants.

I'll be e-mailing him my altered PDF document in the morning. Send that money guys. Let's get this ball rolling.

welcome back dave.


IT HAS BEEN SENT. HEY DAVE IF YOU SEE ANYTHING THAT IS OFF OR MAY NEED TO BE CHANGED LET ME KNOW ASAP. AS SOON AS WE AGREE ON THE FINAL NUMBERS I WILL PAYPAL YOU. I ASSUME TO THE SAME EMAIL ADDRESS. I WILL CHECK HERE ONE MORE TIME BEFORE I CRASH AND IN THE MORNING. :D

XR7 Dave
08-31-2005, 10:29 PM
:D


IT HAS BEEN SENT. HEY DAVE IF YOU SEE ANYTHING THAT IS OFF OR MAY NEED TO BE CHANGED LET ME KNOW ASAP. AS SOON AS WE AGREE ON THE FINAL NUMBERS I WILL PAYPAL YOU. I ASSUME TO THE SAME EMAIL ADDRESS. I WILL CHECK HERE ONE MORE TIME BEFORE I CRASH AND IN THE MORNING. :D

I got it and it looks good. Thanks Scott.

Randy N Connie
08-31-2005, 10:41 PM
Dave
I will go with your choice on the pistons.I trust your judgement.


Thanks Randy

lilredstang
09-01-2005, 12:19 AM
Dave..you Have Been Paid.

Randy N Connie
09-01-2005, 06:58 AM
I'D LIKE TO ZERO DECK SO THAT WOULD BE 1.569 COMPRESSION DISTANCE IF I AM CORRECT. 3.840 BORE FOR MY 30 OVER BLOCK. STILL WONDERING ABOUT THE COMPRESSION RATIO. 8.5 TO 1 SOUNDS SAFE , BUT i AM RUNNING 9.5 TO 1 AND 17PSI ON MY TURBO 2.3L MUSTANG AND THATS WITH THE STOCK HYPERPATHETIC PISTIONS. YES ITS A NONTURBO BLOCK THAT EVERYONE SAID WOULD BLOW AFTER 3 WEEKS. THAT WAS 3 YEARS AND 30,000 MILES AGO. SO i GUESSIT CAM BE DONE.

I have a 1988 2.3 turbocoupe complete motor.I might sell.

lilredstang
09-01-2005, 02:30 PM
I have a 1988 2.3 turbocoupe complete motor.I might sell.


lol I am done with the 2.3s. Mine makes 180hp and 264tq at the rear wheels last dyno, but I hate waiting for the turbo to spool up before the thing will move. I think as of now that the 2.3T will be replaced by a 3.8SC :D The supercoupe motor needs a home and there are too many cocky 5.0s around here. ;)

lilredstang
09-01-2005, 10:58 PM
Hey Dave. I Got Your Voicemail. I Called You Back Around 9:30 But Got No Answer.
That Sounds Fine With Me. The Change In The Ring Package Is Fine Too. Do You Think It Will Lead To Us Getting Them Faster Too?

lilredstang
10-10-2005, 01:58 PM
Any word on the pistons yet?

XR7 Dave
10-20-2005, 11:40 AM
Pistons are shipping today. I appologize for the long delays.

lilredstang
10-23-2005, 01:31 AM
Pistons are shipping today. I appologize for the long delays.

I HAVE THE PISTONS IN HAND AND THEY ARE DEAD SEXY! :D IT WILL BE A SHAME TO HIDE THEM INSIDE THE MOTOR, BUT YOU GOTTA DO WHAT YOU GOTTA DO. :rolleyes:

seawalkersee
10-23-2005, 07:33 AM
Whad ya git? Stock compression? Stock dish? Lemme see sum pix.

Chris

lilredstang
10-23-2005, 11:59 AM
Whad ya git? Stock compression? Stock dish? Lemme see sum pix.

Chris

The dish is much shallower than the stock piston. I'm going for a CR of 9:1. I would be happy to post some pix if someone would be kind enought to give me a few pointers on how its done.

Mike8675309
10-23-2005, 03:21 PM
Take some pictures, store them on your computer. Create a reply to a post, scroll down and click the manage attachments button. upload the pictures.

I missed the Fedex guy on Sat. so I'll post some pics once I get them on Monday or Tuesday.

XR7 Dave
10-23-2005, 04:59 PM
These forged pistons are an "extreme duty" design. Much stronger than a typical Ross or Diamond. Any one of these are capable of 200hp nitrous if you were so inclined. With the advent of 20+psi blower applications and alcohol injection, we decided that stouter was better.

We are also going to offer a direct replacement forged piston. This will be perfect for those wanting to upgrade for nitrous or boost but want to stay with stock rods for budget reasons. They will be a direct drop in with no re-balancing required!

seawalkersee
10-23-2005, 06:08 PM
I knew you were on top of that Dave, I was just curious to what design he chose. Sometimes doing something different is not always better but it can "forge" the way to a better way (and in some cases worse way) to do things. I wont be in the market for any for a few years probably but when the time comes...WATCH OUT BABY...I will put your tq and hp "curves" to shame :D. Well...at least thats what I dream about.

HA...I laugh at your 400/400 stright line.

Chris

lilredstang
10-23-2005, 06:33 PM
Take some pictures, store them on your computer. Create a reply to a post, scroll down and click the manage attachments button. upload the pictures.

I missed the Fedex guy on Sat. so I'll post some pics once I get them on Monday or Tuesday.

hmm ok here it goes

seawalkersee
10-23-2005, 08:47 PM
I assume there are people that already have these in their cars running...One of the bennies to the hyperutectic (sp) is it is supposed to be quieter. I have never had a problem in any of my other engines. Can anyone tell me if it is louder? Is there slap on startup? Heck...if the LS1 does it it cant be all bad right? :eek:

Chris

XR7 Dave
10-24-2005, 07:29 AM
I assume there are people that already have these in their cars running...One of the bennies to the hyperutectic (sp) is it is supposed to be quieter. I have never had a problem in any of my other engines. Can anyone tell me if it is louder? Is there slap on startup? Heck...if the LS1 does it it cant be all bad right? :eek:

Chris

The pistons only shipped less than a week ago so no one here has any in their cars and running. This is an improvement on the Wiseco design used by SSM. Theirs is an open dish whereas this one has a quench pad making it less prone to detonation.

Wiseco recommends .004" clearance.

seawalkersee
10-24-2005, 07:39 AM
Ummm...yeah...I dont see any potential for slap there. I would like to know the deal when someone DOES get one running though.

Chris

lilredstang
10-24-2005, 01:18 PM
hey dave or anyone else ever herd anthing bad about total seal rings? MY shop guy says that every motor he has seen that had them had 2-3X the normal cylinder wall wear. Any one got $.02 to toss in on this?

XR7 Dave
10-24-2005, 02:03 PM
Not really. I don't know much about the subject though. I do know that some top turbo guys won't run them but it's not because of cylinder wear. They say that they seal too good and can trap pressure between the rings causing the rings to actually lift off the cylinder walls resulting in loss of compression and increased blowby under boost.

I think that is in extreme cases though.

FWIW I'm running the Wiseco ring package.

Mike8675309
10-24-2005, 02:05 PM
I'd recommend contacting total seal directly. Though extra wear seems unlikely unless proper tollerance wasn't met in installing them. They are simply an zero end gap solution. That shouldn't impact the tension on the cylinder walls.

I notice that they offer coatings for their rings, so maybe a discussion with them about a recommended coating for our application would prove usefull.

lilredstang
10-24-2005, 06:01 PM
I'd recommend contacting total seal directly. Though extra wear seems unlikely unless proper tollerance wasn't met in installing them. They are simply an zero end gap solution. That shouldn't impact the tension on the cylinder walls.

I notice that they offer coatings for their rings, so maybe a discussion with them about a recommended coating for our application would prove usefull.


So I called total seal and they said that it is very possible that it is true because the cylander may have been honed too smooth. This causes the wall to be deprived of oil and wear faster. He recomended a 280-320 finish. He also asked what the application was and he told me that I would nedd a custom ring set for $271.00. :eek:

seawalkersee
10-24-2005, 06:14 PM
I have heard what Dave said about the loss of pressure. What total seal is saying is also correct. If you run a different ring package then the standard, the bore may need to be smother (or possibly rougher in some cases) because of what it takes to "break in " the ring. Once it breaks in though, I dont know why there would be extra wear. Only if the ring was under too much pressure when installed OR if there was an oiling problem with the engine I.E. there is a baffle in a deep sump mixed with a short stroke and lightened counterweight package. I can see that but even then, there SHOULD be a squirter on the rod. Now. In the event there was a top ring installed wrong I can also see that but other problems would also attribute to that. In fact...you would probably be looking at total engine failure in less then 20k if it is raced and not reoiled.

Chris

Mike8675309
10-24-2005, 09:01 PM
How about start a new thread regarding rings and wear. I'd be curious to hear what "custom" parts they were talking to you about. If you can give more info it would be interesting.

I may have to call them myself as I like to hear the justification behind it from their perspective.

Keep in mind you're spending likely $2k on your motor. You don't want to skimp on things.

lilredstang
10-24-2005, 10:10 PM
How about start a new thread regarding rings and wear. I'd be curious to hear what "custom" parts they were talking to you about. If you can give more info it would be interesting.

I may have to call them myself as I like to hear the justification behind it from their perspective.

Keep in mind you're spending likely $2k on your motor. You don't want to skimp on things.


I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN A NEW THREAD ADDRESSING THIS ISSUE. THE TOTAL SEAL TEC GUY SAID THAT SINCE THE BLOCK IS NOT HONED ROUGH ENOUGH THATTHE RINGS WILL NOT SEAT RIGHT AND INSTED THEY WILL POLISH THE WALLS AND START ALMOST ACTING LIKE A WINDSHIELD WIPER. THEY WIPE ALMOST ALL THE OIL OFF THE WALL AND NO OIL CAUSES MORE WEAR. MAKES SENCE. WOULD THERE BE A DOWN SIDE TO USING A REPLACEMENT SET OF MOLLY RINGS FORM SAY SEALED POWER?

Randy N Connie
10-25-2005, 08:34 AM
I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN A NEW THREAD ADDRESSING THIS ISSUE. THE TOTAL SEAL TEC GUY SAID THAT SINCE THE BLOCK IS NOT HONED ROUGH ENOUGH THATTHE RINGS WILL NOT SEAT RIGHT AND INSTED THEY WILL POLISH THE WALLS AND START ALMOST ACTING LIKE A WINDSHIELD WIPER. THEY WIPE ALMOST ALL THE OIL OFF THE WALL AND NO OIL CAUSES MORE WEAR. MAKES SENCE. WOULD THERE BE A DOWN SIDE TO USING A REPLACEMENT SET OF MOLLY RINGS FORM SAY SEALED POWER?

Your blaming bad choises in machine work on the rings.
Its not the rings problem. Problem is not honing the
cylinders with the proper grit hone.For the intended
use of the engine.

Thanks RANDY

lilredstang
10-25-2005, 10:17 AM
Your blaming bad choises in machine work on the rings.
Its not the rings problem. Problem is not honing the
cylinders with the proper grit hone.For the intended
use of the engine.

Thanks RANDY

WRONG. I am not blaming anyone or anybody. Just passing along what I was told when I called the Total Seal tec line.

Mike8675309
10-25-2005, 07:53 PM
No time today but I'll call yet this week to get the scoop from those guys at Total Seal. Keep in mind there is what they recommend and what you can get by with. As soon as you talk to anyone about your custom forged pistons they are going to be suggesting quality things to go along with that.

Here is one picture of my piston with links to further pics. These are obviously quality parts. I orderd mine with zero compression distance and support for the longer rods, thus the pin placement shown.

Weight came in at 501 grams each.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/tcw_fort/carparts/pistoncompare.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/tcw_fort/carparts/otherside.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/tcw_fort/carparts/pistonside.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/tcw_fort/carparts/pistontop.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/tcw_fort/carparts/underside.jpg

seawalkersee
10-26-2005, 12:49 AM
It appears that your weight is even before the balance, correct? I did not see any markings (but that could be the lightest too). If it CAME to you that way, thats damm good. Oh, any draw backs to that ring that CLOSE to the oil ring? There is still some metal there so I would assume that consumption would not be a problem...but then again...what do I know.

Chris

XR7 Dave
10-26-2005, 10:10 AM
It appears that your weight is even before the balance, correct? I did not see any markings (but that could be the lightest too). If it CAME to you that way, thats damm good. Oh, any draw backs to that ring that CLOSE to the oil ring? There is still some metal there so I would assume that consumption would not be a problem...but then again...what do I know.

Chris

The pistons came with a 1.0gm variance according to the spec sheet but when we weighed them we came up with less than .2g variance on the whole set. I am very pleased with the quality. These are a little heavier than a Ross piston but they should have no trouble with 20psi and a solid dose of nitrous on top of that.

My understanding of oil consumption on pin/ring land interference was not because of the opening caused by the pin bore but rather due to some sort of oiling path resulting from the way the oil feed and drainback holes used to be on most pistons. Apparently a change in the oiling design of the piston itself aleviates that problem. But I dont' know from personal experience. My engine builder says they run way up into the ring lands all the time now days with no problems.

Mike8675309
10-26-2005, 11:32 AM
It appears that your weight is even before the balance, correct? I did not see any markings (but that could be the lightest too). If it CAME to you that way, thats damm good. Oh, any draw backs to that ring that CLOSE to the oil ring? There is still some metal there so I would assume that consumption would not be a problem...but then again...what do I know.

Chris

The weight is shown on the custom sheet I got with the pistons at 501 grams for all 6 pistons, right on the nuts.

I'll be using Total Seal gapless rings, likely with a coating. There shouldn't be any issue. Note the groove between the first and second ring used for pressure equalization, that will help ring seal.. And the anti-detonation ridges above the top ring.

I'll be using 1.5 x 1.5 x 4mm rings. And these pistons come with chrome molly pins an Spirolox. Suggested skirt clearance is .0040. I'll be coating the pistons with a moly skirt coating and ceramic piston top coating.

XxSlowpokexX
10-30-2005, 09:51 PM
I had my diamond pistons coated by Swaintech. They have a goldcoat ceramic for tops and a poly moly for the skirts. I di dthat along with a full treatment on my heads

seawalkersee
10-30-2005, 10:08 PM
Damon, can I have some money so I can do that too?

Chris

Randy N Connie
10-31-2005, 05:37 PM
David,

I take it that I was left off the buy list.
Since I have not received any pistons.

Thanks Randy

Super XR7
10-31-2005, 07:21 PM
I had my diamond pistons coated by Swaintech. They have a goldcoat ceramic for tops and a poly moly for the skirts. I di dthat along with a full treatment on my heads
Swain coatings; are they for nitrous applications.

XR7 Dave
11-08-2005, 11:14 AM
Swain coatings; are they for nitrous applications.

The coatings can be used in any application. The ceramic top coat serves two purposes. 1) it keeps the heat in the chamber where it can make more power, and 2) it keeps the heat out of the piston thus helping to prevent skirt deformation and also a first line protection against flame damage to the crown.

The skirt coatings are a moly coating that is intended to protect the skirts from scuffing if they make contact with the walls.

Nitrous applications have a thicker crown and the rings are placed a little lower on the piston to keep them further from the flame.

Mike8675309
12-29-2005, 05:04 PM
Ack... called total seal today to order rings. Should have called them before specing the piston. They would have recommended a 1.2mm top ring land to fit a stainless steel top ring.

With the 1.5mm the best they can do is the Ductile Iron with Moly facing. Not bad, but not the best they have to offer.

just a fyi for folks when specing pistons, call your ring vendor and discuss your application before making the piston.

Super95
01-01-2006, 06:18 PM
Dave Iam istalling the scorpion rockers on my sons car and the set only has 11 pedestals can you send me 1 more overnight. Larry Jessen 901-751-7310 juicelj@aol.com

Mike8675309
01-18-2006, 09:41 PM
Pistons are back from Swain Tech.

Went with the Gold Coat tops and PC-9 Skirt coating.

pretty.

XxSlowpokexX
01-19-2006, 09:56 PM
Mike I hope ya installing those ASAP as they do not liek to be out of their lil Nitrogen filled baggies for long. I did the same to mine. Did you get the combustion chambers, valves intake and exhaust ports coated as well?

SupachargedSC
01-25-2006, 03:14 PM
very nice, how much did that run!

Mike8675309
01-25-2006, 08:28 PM
They didn't send them in any baggies, just wrapped in newspaper, then wrapped in bubble wrap, and then in the original box from the piston maker. I remember seeing pictures of them in baggies and confirmed with them that they have changed the composition slightly and the oxygen fear is no longer there. Pistons will be in the motor in a couple weeks but the heads won't be on for a good month if not longer.

I believe the cost for the coating was $374 including shipping. It's the PC-9 skirts and gold top coats so it's a tad more expensive than the standard moly coating and ceramic top.

Note the coating cost nearly as much as the pistons themselves. Thus Dave got us a good deal on these pistons.

XxSlowpokexX
01-27-2006, 02:48 PM
Dang naggit..Good ot hear the nitrogen is no longer needed as that is just oen less pain to worry about. Hows it comming along..The motor?

Mike8675309
01-27-2006, 08:20 PM
Block, pistons, rods, crank, balancer, flywheel are all at the machine shop. Talked them into good prices on basic parts so they ordered my ARP bolts and oil pump.

We're waiting on some unfinished bushings from Scat to arrive so the shop can press in the bushings and get the .927 rod end to fit my .912 pin. :rolleyes:

Just picked up the heads today after being pressure tested as good and they'll be going out to Dave D here in a couple days for him to do some magic on them. He doesn't know it yet, but I plan to have him supply the pushrods, valves, springs, rockers and porting work as well as help me choose a cam. Oh and a SCT chip to make it all work good enough to get to nebraska for a dyno tune by him.

seawalkersee
02-19-2006, 05:05 PM
For those who are looking for a longer rod, I picked up a set of football rods (supposed to be good past 400HP) from corral.net for $80.00 to my door. They are still in the plastic baggies...

Chris

L/F 93 man
02-21-2006, 01:32 PM
I am in the market for new forged pistons now that the machine shop told me i need to bore the block 20 over. so i was wondering how much is a set of 20 over pistons and the proper rings are going cost me.

Mike8675309
02-26-2006, 02:01 AM
E-mail (not pm) dave to get answers for that if you want forged pistons. (Sealed power makes oversized pistons that'll fit the stock rods if you're not anxious for forged pistons)

RGR
03-09-2006, 04:23 PM
Got a part # or link for the sealed power pistons/site?

Mike8675309
03-09-2006, 09:00 PM
Sealed Power #H675CP.

www.rockauto.com lists them and you can find the listing on the federal mogul website catalogs.