View Full Version : Wanted: Your feedback on revised Fastest SC List
05-04-2002, 01:40 PM
I am looking for feedback and suggestions on the revised Fastest SC List:
<a href = "http://www.sccoa.com/faq/fastest.php">http://www.sccoa.com/faq/fastest.php</a>
Thanks in advance,
05-04-2002, 01:55 PM
For 10 and 11 second SC's.
The SC Kid
05-04-2002, 01:56 PM
That the car is street driven or driveable or before you know it we'll have an 8 second car on the list. Race weight would be interesting to know also.
The SC Kid
05-04-2002, 03:42 PM
I think the time slips should be available as links, but not part of the actual list since they take forever to download for those of us with dialup and also take up too much space on the page.
I think that there should be catagories for obvious things that would be helpful in making sense of some of the times.
For example, columns for displacement, type of supercharger, trans type, tire type, other power adders, etc. This does not need to spawn additional "fastest catagories", it would just give the viewer some sort of idea what it took to run that time.
Plus, links to member cars that are so completely outdated that the description doesn't even describe the car the person is currently driving isn't real helpful and need not be included.
fred 4 pt 3
05-04-2002, 03:56 PM
I like the slip as a link, to save time. Also, consider track elevation as a field. That way folks could more appreciate, for example, a mid 13 sec SC in Denver.
pro street rich
05-04-2002, 07:18 PM
Break down the mods so that people can get an idea what will work for them. Since some of us no longer have 3.8's maybe the size of the engine would also be helpful. Right now if you just say a S.C. body,then my 35th with the big block would count. That is not fair to the people who have gone with the Coy engines of the others that are out there like Dr. Freds or maybe even that guy on the upper west coast,if he ever gets it done. These are some of the things that would help. As for real street cars,maybe a look at the rules for the 5.0 street class would be a place to look. These can be found in many places as well as the book for the Ford world challange races. These are just a few ideas,maybe they will help, maybe not. .....Rich
05-04-2002, 08:24 PM
I think the rear-end shouldn't be listed. I mean, if they don't have the IRS then it's more of a racer than a street car. Isn't that the point of the quickest SC? I agree, the timeslips should be a link. I also think the mods should be listed... even if it's like "custom tranny". It'll help give new modifiers a direction to go.
I also think some of the rules need to be revised somewhat. These are my opinions so take it with a grain of salt.
1. If a drag racing style suspension is used, this MUST be specified.
I think IRS should be retained IMHO. I also think the car must be street legal and be able to pass emisions. You can always take the cats off later. :)
2. Your engine must LOOK like a Ford 3.8L SC engine. Boring/stroking acceptable.
This needs to be addressed. Is this block only? Does this mean Manny's inverted setup or George's Whipple will not be vaild? What about cars with front mount IC's, or custom raised tops (XR7 Dave's comes to mind)? These change the appearance but the rules say all power adders are OK. I'm just wanting a clarification.
3. Any other engine than a Ford 3.8L SC based engine is NOT valid.
What if someone had an aluminum block made or uses cast iron heads? I know it's a long shot, but you never know what someone might do. :)
4. Someone must attest to your run. Another SCCoA member is preferred but not necessary.
Good point, but it's hard for people like me to have someone watch. I'm pretty much the only SC'er in Memphis. Can a pic of the car with the number on the window (at the track) be used to verify my timeslip?
Don't want to start a war... thanks.
05-04-2002, 11:16 PM
Hey, in response to "This needs to be addressed. Is this block only? Does this mean Manny's inverted setup or George's Whipple will not be vaild? What about cars with front mount IC's, or custom raised tops (XR7 Dave's comes to mind)? These change the appearance but the rules say all power adders are OK. I'm just wanting a clarification. "
read this rule:
6. Any and all power adders are acceptable, but let us know if anything other than one supercharger is used.
So a whipple charger/inverted charger don't even need to be adressed. Coy Miller uses a larger blower, i understand, and lots of people use different IC's.
05-05-2002, 12:47 AM
Boring/Stroking shouldn't be allowed. It isn't even a 3.8L then(Sorry Fred) I also like the idea of having to have IRS. No tubbed out SC should make the list.
05-05-2002, 09:33 AM
What about posting ET's corrected for elevation posted next to the timeslip time. Elevation is readily available for each and every track. Correction information could be compiled and submitted by anyone so inclined to do the research. Wouldn't have to be Ron or the person submitting the slip either. Heck every ET printed by Car and Driver is corrected for altititude.
05-05-2002, 01:54 PM
That rule about having to have irs is stupid imo, that means we will forever be limited to onefastest sc, and will never get any faster then 11 seconds
05-05-2002, 05:26 PM
In my opinion, the only qualification should be that the VIN plate attached to the car decodes as a 1989 -1995 Thunderbird SC, or a 1989 - 1990 Cougar XR7. Setting limits on displacement, block, trans, rear, or anything is ridiculous.
If you look a quickest lists on any other car club website there usually are not such limitations. engine swaps and pro rear ends abound in the lower numbers.
But I would like to know what IS in any such cars. Therefore I think the rule should be; anything goes, as long as you start with a SC/XR7. But you should not have any secrets. Put everything on the table.
05-05-2002, 05:28 PM
And andy's choice is the best so far imo
05-05-2002, 05:54 PM
Well, I just wanted to clarify my statement. All power adders is fine, but it doesn't look like an SC engine then. See the descrepancy?
Maybe we should have two categories, one for current rules and one for anything goes? Just an idea.
05-05-2002, 10:13 PM
If it was just by then VIN number, then you could drop a twin turbo 7.3L and be making 800 hp and running 9's. What's the point?
05-05-2002, 10:43 PM
i dont think that engine swaps should be able to qualify for the list (such as big blocks ect).
as long as the engine is derived from the blown 3.8, it should count. i dont think that bored and stroked motors should be left out, or motors with upgraded sc's ect.
05-06-2002, 09:15 AM
Yes, the slip as a link would definitely help, since I'm stuck on 28.8k dial-up. Transmission, gears and tires would be nice to know. I think that anything that starts as a 3.8L sc should be allowed (4.3's, whipple's, etc.).
05-06-2002, 10:34 AM
If it was just by then VIN number, then you could drop a twin turbo 7.3L and be making 800 hp and running 9's.
What's the point?
The point is it is still a Thunderbird SC or Cougar XR7 and I for one would still be interested in seeing it.
Do you think that any of the Mustang guys who drop a 351 (or anything really) in a fox body are not included in their lists?
05-06-2002, 11:16 AM
I agree with Andy that all restrictions should be lifted. However an updated mod list should submitted with any timeslip in the top 25.
This would give everyone an idea of what was required to run the time posted.
Since mods are listed in the Member Cars section, it would also be necessary to allow non-members space in that area, similar to how the Fastest SC list is handled.
05-06-2002, 11:18 AM
The old rules were perfect and I understood them very easily because they were simple. The new rules are fine also.
05-06-2002, 12:19 PM
Well - I don't foresee myself ever being very high on the list but I do have an opinion on the comments that have been raised.
I think the car needs to stay reasonably stock as far as components, for example, a 3.8 block (stroked, bored, whatever as long as it is an SC 3.8 block). I think the Ford/Eaton Supercharger should be used but can be altered to a number of extremes as long as it is an OEM blower. IRS??? I would like to say that it can go because I realize there is great potential in changing to a solid axle, however, this is part of what makes an SC an SC, so I feel it should stay. The comment about never seeing anything quicker than 11sec. with IRS is , I think, a little close minded. Just look at how the times have changed in the past 3 years IRS is limiting but I don't think we are limited to 11 by it, we are just challenged more.
If there are those who want to see an anything goes list maybe another list can be started for those who want the extreme as another category. We know how fast an MN-12 will go, in fact there are clubs specifically for the MN-12 so for those who want a different block, rearend, blower etc... maybe they should post their speeds on that site and we could have a link to it. You say the other groups don't have limitations or restrictions on what goes??? They also don't have an SC! Mustangs are a dime a dozen and with a variety of engines available stock from a 4 to 8 cylinder they have to give up limitations. We have a rarity of vehicles in the SC and if we lift too many restrictions than we are only racing another MN-12 with ground effects. This club was started for the SC enthusiast and is about the SC, that is where our infatuation is. I always thought the purpose of the fastest SC list was to set a goal and constantly push the barrier to see how fast we could go with the SC as the car we love.
In closing, there have been numerous contributors who have brought the SC where it is today by way of aftermarket parts. If we want to see that list of parts continue to grow than we need to stick with the SC! Suggestions about the timeslip links etc... are great and I also like the idea of a listing of mods that have been done, however keeping in mind that not everyone is willing to share their modifications with the masses.
05-06-2002, 02:53 PM
Is two lists with double listing allowed an option? I think tires and transmission setup are a must. Stock AOD and Lentech with stall converter is a big difference in 1/4 time.
The SC Kid
05-06-2002, 03:17 PM
Perhaps it's time to break the list into 2 or 3 classes? Not that we are trying to be a euphorian and make sure everyone wins. Instead it would just allow people to better compare their performance to others in a similar category.
So we could have the Unlimited Category, Modified Category, and Stock Category. And with each timeslip sent in, a list of mods would be required as well. For those that don't like to give up their secrets, they could just simply say "Custom Intake Modification" and leave it up to someone to pester you for the details. For those that are more forthcoming, give the details.
Stock might entail all bolt on mods
Modified might entail major mods, yet still 3.8 block, stock transmission, stock rear end, stock suspension design.
Unlimited would be unlimited, as long as the VIN comes up as a Tbird or Merc SC or XR7, it's in.
Thus we could have
Fastest SC- Unlimited
Fastest SC- Modified
Fastest SC- Stock
Why break it up? I don't know. It just seems like most SC and XR7 owners are really into their cars. But everyone is at a slightly different level. Some can't wait to bolt on the IC cooler, cold air intake, maybe do some injectors. Then there are others that can't wait to rip open the block, bore out the cylinders, and figure out how to make 351 rods fit in a 3.8. As far as braging rights, they should go to the Fastest SC across all categories.
05-06-2002, 03:53 PM
I think the rules are fine the way they have been.
I don't see a reason why we need to change them.
Keeping the IRS as a requirement is a good thing cause it will inspire some innovation to improve the IRSs performance instead of just dropping in a solid axel.
We'll see 11's soon with the IRS, I'm sure of it.
05-06-2002, 03:58 PM
Very well put, but is IRS allowed in the 11's ?
Hot Rod Joe
05-06-2002, 04:14 PM
I like the new format mostly because I'm back on the same page as the big boys :-)
Make it one list to keep things simple.
Keep the list to street driven 3.8l (or 3.8l but bored and stroked) Ford SC engines. Stree driven and street legal are two different things. I doubt anyone in the 13's is street legal to the letter of the law!
Allow any SC, turbo, nitrous, rear... Just have a note if there was a swap and list major power adders.
This is how I see most other car club's fastest pages and it really looks good.
I think we are all grown up to trust each other with runs as long as a time slip is supplied.
Keep up the good work Ron.
Jim Demmitt Jr
05-06-2002, 11:42 PM
It should only be as it is now the rules
If you change it will bring in Pro Street type cars
It should alway's be listed if NOS is used next to the time slip
It's great just the way it is let's keep it
05-07-2002, 09:27 AM
I doubt anyone in the 13's is street legal to the letter of the law!I can say the my car is 100% street legal in St. Louis, Missouri which includes passing emissions and ran 13.42s @ 101mph. Anyway, I've already stated my opinions on the fastest list.
As for the IRS, I know that the NHRA has limits set for IRS, but I'm not sure exactly what that is (maybe 11.5s). You could always run faster than the limit ONCE at any given track, but then you'd have to go to another track to try again :)
Hot Rod Joe
05-07-2002, 10:20 AM
If we were to go by the letter of the law, almost all performace mods would be considered 'for off road use only'. There are very few parts available for the SC that have actually been approved by the necessary process to certify emissions. As far as I know, these mods are kosher: K&N; air silencer removal; cat-back; IC fan; UD pulleys; drag radials. Will these mods get you into the 13's?
I agree that your car could easily pass emissions. Mine does with flying colors. Even the most radical SCs will pass a tailpipe sniff test. Here in MD, they perform the state emissions on a treadmil under load and my SC runs very clean. Does that mean it's legal? I'll never tell...
What I like about SCs is that you can keep them looking and sounding stock and still make 350-400 hp. True sleepers.
The list should have only cars that are streetable. I don't care if they are considered 'legal'. It wouldn't be right to include funny cars or trailer queens on the list if the rest of us drive our cars on the road.
pro street rich
05-07-2002, 05:59 PM
I see nothing wrong with a tubbed car if thats what the owner wants. Sure put him or her in a class for that type of car, but don't ban the car altogether.. Of course what else would I say, but true, if someone goes thru the work then don't tell him that he can't play anymore...Maybe someone is afraid of a pro car????
05-07-2002, 07:25 PM
But being that as far as I know, and I certainly am out of the loop, but arguing over tubs and big blocks, etc makes no sense as there are no cars that fit that description, right? Why not take it up as the situation occurs.
Frankly, if someone tubs a SC, I'm pretty sure it won't be because they wanted to get it on the top 25 list. Hell, _I'm_ still #29 and that time is what, 3 years old?? Not exactly a hard list to get onto :)
05-07-2002, 08:38 PM
Well, thats just the point. Rich's 35th Anniv. car is tubbed, big blocked, and then some! :)
05-08-2002, 03:12 PM
Why wasn't I informed sooner??? ;)
I just assumed he had a "real" (non-SC) pro-street car...
In that case, I say what the hell. Let him in and put an asterisk next to it and make everyone happy.
pro street rich
05-08-2002, 07:55 PM
Guys the best part is I didn't start this someone else did. I don't think that a car with a big block [read my sig] is to be put on the list. That list is for 3.8 s.c.'s and thats how I feel. Yes it is fun to go fast and let people think that its a V6 but when they hear the noise,they know that something is up. Let the list be for the V6's and let the mind go wild on how to get it to go fast. There are a lot of things that can be done,so let it be. As far as the rest of the car goes,let the plate be clean and let it go wild... There is nothing better than to let the minds of all the people go in whatever path that they want. Maybe break out the classes like the pro 5.0 guys do and see what comes of it. Thats all I have to say,let the fun keep going....Rich
05-09-2002, 12:24 AM
I have to admit, I like the idea that we are currently *required* to retain things like the IRS, and the 3.8L block. However, do you also have to retain the ARC to stay on the list? I am sure that many of the folks on the list have long since disabled it. The ARC is something unique to the Supercoupe, so should they be banned? I don't think so.
What I think that makes to most sense is to use Andy's idea. As long as the VIN decodes as a 1989-1995 Supercoupe or 1989-1990 XR7, you've got the prerequisites to enter.
Now, I also agree with the other guy who suggested that we have 3 classes.
1. A "street" class, would require that the cars be mostly stock. Just like the Rules in the SCCA Solo II class, or something similar. You could adopt the same rules from the Mustang Classes. Basically everything is stock, but changes could be made to tires, mufflers, air filters, minor electrical work(like stereos). Something to that effect, things like the ARC, IRS, 3.8L eaton powered engine should all remain intact.
2. A "Modified" class, would require that the cars compete as Supercoupes/XR7s. The big difference is that this class would require that Folks could keep the 3.8L based block, Boring/stroking acceptable, Stock supercharger (though modified is allowed), IRS retained, but modification to IRS is acceptable. Basically everything in the modified class is allowed as long as it is based on the previous modification, just better. So things like Tubbed suspensions and roll cages would be unacceptable in this class.
3. An "Outlaw" class, Anything basically goes here, Custom shocks, additional/different power adders (yeah, like a twin turbo, Whipple charged nitrous injected type power adder), Tubbing and custom sheet metal, drag chutes, Power steering delete, A/C delete, etc. You get the idea.
I'm sure that this would be the best solution, it would allow folks that decided to ditch some of the inherant "go slow" items like the Crankshaft and it's offset throws for a Billet Steel knife-egded crank with custom throws to compete in the "outlaw" class. Those that are purists at heart will have great fun the "street" class. And for everyone that is happy with the parts that Ford gave us, just wants to slap better versions of those parts on our car will feel right at home in the "Modified" class.
Any "special" or unique exceptions to the rules (example: Runs so fast in the 1/4mile that a roll cage is required), could be allowed to compete in the Modified class based on the judgement call of the SCCOA officers...
Lastly, I also believe that one of the reasons why we got our Supercoupes vs. a Mustang is because Supercoupes are great Road cars. So I think that we should also have posted times for folks that also Road Race their cars. I know that no one track is the same, so the specific track that they raced at should be listed along with their fastest Lap time. The Same 3 classes would apply for the Road racing results too. So lets say that there are times for everyone who has taken their SC's to watkins glen, or something like that. That way Folks could see how well these cars are doing on Road Racing, based on the class that they call under at that Specific track.
05-09-2002, 07:06 PM
i have a suggestion
keep SCandelous95 at the top... :p
05-15-2002, 03:31 AM
I've been throwing this out forever!
How about a compensation or handicap if you will for those of us running at altitude. Some of you may ask, What???
Yes altitude severly handicaps even the best NHRA guys if your shooting at times! When I ran my 94 SC 2 years ago at Vegas it ran a 15.1 when its previous best at home in Colorado at 3500ft was a 15.75, & that was good air!..Poor air in Vegas!
Our 92 ran consistant 14.6s at home last year until we took it to Topeka KS for ET finals where it ran a 13.9 in very bad humid air!
Now with a new CMRE stage 2 with Alcohol injection the best ET to date at home is 13.9... with an awesome 1.84 ..60'
I'm thinking very low 13s or even a high 12 at lower elevations.,but the problem is ???I have to travel at least 1500 miles to prove it?
I challenge anyone to come to Colorado and show me a 12 sec Time slip?
It ain't gonna happen unless Coy, or Dr Fred (who lives here)does it!
I've got friends in Texas running 10 sec cars that can barely run a 12 up here!
05-15-2002, 09:28 AM
What about posting ET's corrected for elevation posted next to the timeslip time. Elevation is readily available for each and every track. Correction information could be compiled and submitted by anyone so inclined to do the research. Wouldn't have to be Ron or the person submitting the slip either. Heck every ET printed by Car and Driver is corrected for altititude
I think this is a real big issue with the current list. It is not right to think that someone at high altitude should travel down to sea level and try for a "best time". Not many of us can afford to have our car's airlifted home! LOL
05-15-2002, 12:33 PM
I don't think that ARC should be required to stay on. Because that limits us only to tokico shocks.... which in my honest opinion aren't the greatest shocks out there.
IRS HAS TO STAY though.... and i love the ideas of having the three classes (Street, Modified, Outlaw)
Also what about the early model guys who upgrade the the S-Model blower? would that instantly bump them up to modified even though it came stock on the late model SC's?
fred 4 pt 3
05-15-2002, 03:39 PM
Okay, I still only see one list, but with fields added for the classes, and an altitude correction field. I was told at Bandimere that the correction for my SC (that day) was almost 1.3 seconds, WOW.
So many different opinions,.. poor Ron! He's the one who's got to sort through all of this!
Here's my 2 cents worth. Keep it simple... the 3 requirements for the list should be:
- MN-12 R-code chassis
- 3.8L SC block
Then, build the list as a simple spreadsheet with the following:
Column 1 - NAME (clickable link to access the owners E-mail address)
Column 2 - CAR (clickable link to access the webpage for pics and/or mods of the car)
Column 3 - TIME/SPEED, altitude corrected (clickable link for the timeslip)
Column 4 - TRACK (clickable link to the track website, if any)
Column 5 - DATE RAN
Well, that's about it... too simple huh?
93 Thunderbird SC auto
05-17-2002, 12:45 AM
YES!!!! That is exactly what I had in mind. Very well put Paul!
fred 4 pt 3
05-17-2002, 08:08 PM
I believe Steve Griffith was running N2O on that run . . .
05-17-2002, 10:55 PM
Can anyone verify that Steve was running Nitrous on his run?
05-17-2002, 11:27 PM
I agree that an altitude correction should be added - to level the playing field for everyone.
fred 4 pt 3
05-18-2002, 12:08 AM
Ron check with Mike Puckett, I think he witnessed the run.
Jim Demmitt Jr
05-18-2002, 04:44 AM
I think it should be what ever you turn no matter if the elevation is high or not what your time slip is that it should be
Drag racing rules they don't adjust altitude correction why should we leave it alone like it is
05-18-2002, 09:52 AM
Not correcting would give an unfair advantage to those who run at sea level vs those in Denver, for example. Nobody wouldn't want that, would they?
Altitude isn't corrected in drag racing because everyone in the same race runs at the same altitude.
Correcting is a big step in making a real evaluation of the relative performance of the cars. Otherwise, everyone posting times should run at the same altitude. That would provide a true performance comparison.
Jim Demmitt Jr
05-18-2002, 03:01 PM
John that's a good point if they do at the track and signed by the track official
It would be fair for Fred and the rest in Mile High as along as its done right
fred 4 pt 3
05-19-2002, 01:15 PM
Actually, I don't think corrected time (always a bone of contention) needs to be posted, but I would like to see the elevation of the track next to the actual achieved result, to put things in perspective. If you are doing low 13.5 at Bandimere, 5550 ft, you are competitive with Coy's run at sealevel. Real fast tracks, like Englishtown and Sac (and others) are usually 300 ft or less.
But yes, you can get a time correction at Bandimere, if you have a race weight, but keep in mind it's just an math algorithm that is an average. SC's have an unusual power curve that doesn't quite fit the models out there.
05-20-2002, 09:26 AM
well i got to put my 2 cents in i think if you can aford to mod a sc you can aford to get to a low level track and i even know were one runs a little down hill and if some one like jim and coy or fred want bragging rights let them meat and shoot it out. and as far as the rest of the rules i think they should stay
fred 4 pt 3
05-20-2002, 12:16 PM
informational purposes only, mercury, as you can see I'm NOT advocating corrected times
05-20-2002, 06:39 PM
Ok here is my opinion:
1) I feel that you have to retain the 3.8L engine, whatever you do to it is fine, but again it will need to be documented to some degree.
2) This engine has to be in an MN12 car. That car can have fiberglass everything as far as I am concerned, the bottom line is that we need to baseline somewhere.
3) I am open on retaining IRS or not, perhaps we need to take a vote. Again, database wise, I have created a field, if someone wants to go for it, I think they are going to do it regardless of what our list rules are...
1) I can drop the images for the top 25 and just have a link, the images are 100x100 and should load quickly for dial up users but apparently it isn't working that well.
2) I will create a member page for all entries so we can see their modifications, there will also be a time stamp on the page, so you can see how old/new it is.
3) Adding altitude is not difficult, I just need people to let me know the elevation at each track or I need volunteers to read the timeslip.
4) I don't see why we need different classes, this places a large burden on me. I will then need to know which car fits in which class, what if someone leaves something out, etc? This forces me to make arbitrary decisions unless we are going to debate every single entry. One list makes this simple, and people know that you aren't going to be running in the 12s without some serious mods.
Thanks for everyone's feedback and as always I am open to suggestions on how we are to make a decision here.
05-21-2002, 07:59 PM
fred i think it would be cool to see corected times but not to count them as the time in witch order the would be in such as if i ran 12 sec here and you ran a 12.5 there, but your corected tim is lower then mine then i dont think you shoud be above me on the list, and my car is no were near 12 sec any how so not that i have a big stake in it. i hope to have my car in the mid to high 12 by this augest.
05-23-2002, 01:18 PM
I implemented some of the changes I mentioned above, looking for suggestions, comments, etc.
05-27-2002, 01:49 PM
The idea of correcting timeslips for altitude is a good one. However, it would have to be a devised formula that is posted for everyone to utilize. That way everyone is using the same interpolation to derive a sea level E.T. I know in aircraft that our true airspeed increases 2% for every thousand feet of altitude gained over sealevel. (That is because the air is thinner.) The same reason cars don't run as fast at altitude. Everything would have to be returned to all exacts. It would include temperature, humidity, barometric pressure at the time of the run. That is because these are all variables that affect an ET. Where are we going to get this information and know it was a reliable source. Airports all broadcast temp, baro, etc but those are specific for their alititude. For example Gateway I think is 413ft and Lambert airport is 600ft. That could incure a .3% change. Not siginificat, but someone would argue it.
Finally, I think it just gets too complicated to do so considering ALL of the variables.
We should have Best DYNO numbers section with a scan of the dyno. For most HP and Torque. These are all usually corrected to SEA Level. Comments? Suggestions?
05-30-2002, 09:19 PM
I like the idea of a rwhp dyno list. Also I like the way your new list looks.
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