Radiator

[hytorksc]

i must be posting too much around here because i'm being ignored. i realize i'm not a member, and i don't have vast knowledge of these cars like some big boys here- oh well- i'm just trying to come up with some effective solutions for the sc.

I have an idea that may just work for significantly reducing engine temps on these cars. I drove into work this morning about 50 miles one way on the interstate, across two mountain ranges, 6% grade for 3 miles up the mountain and usually my engine temps go up past the "N", settling between the "O" and "R" of normal while climbing the mountain at 80 mph. I think this usually means that the temps are approaching 200+*, and i have a 180* therm with the fan on all the time- the cooling system is still being overtaken. But this morning I turned on the heater full blast, and the temps this time stayed below the "N" going up the mountain. This tells me that a smaller than stock auxilary engine radiator with a fan may give the stock system the cooling capacity to overcome the heat during hot weather with the fan running all the time. The heater core is a very small radiator, and with the fan blower on high it acts as an auxilary radiator anyway- that's why the temps go down when you turn on the heater.
You would also have the advantage of maybe 50% additional coolant in the system. placing it would be the issue- how to do this without bleeding heat into the other heat exchangers. optimally it would be a front mount though- that would even solve the overheating when the AC is on issue.

what do y'all think?

[Ira R.]

Well, with what little I know about all this, the theory sounds very good on paper. How do you impliment it, and at what cost, is the real question.

Ira

[hytorksc]

Well, with what little I know about all this, the theory sounds very good on paper. How do you impliment it, and at what cost, is the real question.

Ira
well i thought it would be just a matter of setting up a front mount auxiliary radiator (sealed- no cap) with a fan, and it would be half the height of the stock radiator so as to not totally bleed heat into the entire ac condenser. Maybe even some type of air deflector behind the aux radiator to point the air downward away from the condensor. This may be just a matter of finding a heat exchanger made for something else, and routing the coolant plumbing like you would an fmic. the aux radiator would be mounted in front of the ac condenser, but would be a long rectangular shape side to side with maybe an 8 inch height. the cores would be thick, at least 1 inch, and the inlet and outlets (or end tanks) would be on the sides of the rad like a front mount intercooler.

cost? i figure if i could find an exchanger with these dimensions already made for something else, it would not be all that much. And if possible, made out of aluminum- convert the stock radiator to aluminum too. i don't know exactly how all this would fit yet, i'd have to study the front of the sc first.

[4cefed]

Why not just splurging and getting a nice aluminum radiator that already has more capacity? Then, if the time comes, you can still run a FMIC.

[seawalkersee]

Off subject forcefed but where in KC you at?

Chris

[hytorksc]

Why not just splurging and getting a nice aluminum radiator that already has more capacity? Then, if the time comes, you can still run a FMIC.
i don't think you are understanding what i'm trying to fix. If you put a big griffin radiator in there, it's still going to overheat if you run the AC and have an FMIC bleeding heat into the griffin radiator. my point is that the radiator should be positioned to get the cool air first which will stop all these temperature variations that go on with the SC. The only reason you would do that is because there is not enough space for a really adequate sized radiator in the stock position to solve the heat issues with the SC. In my toyota camry, the radiator is the biggest thing in there. look at other cars that dont have overheating issues and you will see what i'm saying. You're starting off with a 3.8 head that doesn't have enough cooling passages to begin with which probably makes the engine hotter than it has to be, then the stock radiator is seriously undersized, and on top of all that, the bigger AC condenser bleeds heat and overpowers the puny radiator. Then if you have an FMIC, it's even worse. If you don't believe what i'm saying, just drive your SC when it's 90+ degrees outside, and run the AC while pulling a big hill. The stock radiator nor a griffin will keep up- it will still get hotter than it should. actually i cant say what a griffin would do, but from what i read on these forums, the griffin may control the temps a little better, but not by much. it probably works great when you are not running a FMIC and the AC. but if you are running AC and in boost frequently- watch out.

i know this is long winded, but i'm trying to get this car to be more reliable (yeah i know :rolleyes: ) and not have to look at the gages so much when i want to get on it hard in hot weather. as it stands now, i can't even cruise at higher rpms without the temp gage scaring me. There are other sports cars i can drive hard for long periods in hot weather and not have a second thought about engine temps.

[Ira R.]

I think you just addressed the number one problem here though when yousaid, "there is not enough space". That pretty much sums up the basic problem with the car. Once you add a FMIC, unless you move the condensor there is really not alot of room for anything in there.

I'm not trying to disuade you here, I just don't have an answer.
Ira

[hytorksc]

i just got off the phone with the head of a custom radiator builder (27 years experience), and explained the complete situation about the SC's overheating issues. He explained it like this;

There are (3) elements that must work for a radiator to function effectively-

1. circulation- via water pump, etc..
2. airflow- across the fins
3. heat transfer-

he mentioned that if you really want to know what the radiators doing, tap into the bottom return with a real temp gage, and if it's reading almost the same temp as the motor, then the rad ain't working.

we all know these are the base fundamentals. but to look at it from an SC perspective-

1. circulation- our water pumps are not that good design wise, if you looked at that small impeller in the stock pump.
2. airflow- not good, especially on an old rad, with crushed AC condenser fins blocking the air, and bugs/road debris in there.
3. heat transfer- the stock radiator inner tubes are just too small, and there is not enough contact with the fins for efficient transfer.

so what can be done?

i gave him my idea, and he trashed it. he's says basically that the heat coming from a front mount auxilary radiator, and the partial blockage of air flow will void the intended cooling effect.
this guy claims he can build a brass radiator that cools better than aluminum- how? by elongating the inner tubes making the fins wider, which increases heat transfer.

does the griffin have this already? i don't know.

guys, we got to come up with something that will solve this once and for all. i think our biggest problem maybe #2 (airflow), and #3 (transfer). i'm going to see if he can build a low cost bigger and thicker brass radiator for our cars. then perhaps moving the radiator in front of the AC condenser might do the trick. but i don't know how much will be lost on AC cooling.

[hytorksc]

well, no help from the custom rad guy- he won't do it. i guess i will just do a prototype from another rad already built and see what happens.

[Toms-SC]

-moving the rad in front of the a/c condensor will kill the a/c operation
(just feel the heat being pulled out of the rad by the puller fan)

-w/o using a properly calibrated gauge,you have no way of knowing what temp you are currently running at.A lot of people piss their pants when the gauge is at the "m" ,which is not overheating (assuming that it indicates a true 220 deg)

-brass rads typically have 0.5in tube size,griffins have 1.0-1.5in tube sizes in the aluminum core

-nobody washes all of the accumulated crud out of the condensor/rad fins
-a lot of people use underdrive pulleys w/o considering what slowing down the water pump will do to the cooling

[tim]

It really is not that hard so solve. I had my two core radiator recored to a three core for $225. No more overheating. Simple and cheap.

[ricardoa1]

I see a point here. I remember my cobra heat exanger being small enough to fit in front of the car, that has my brain working now. those cobra heat exanger are dirt cheap since cobra owners toss them for bigger ones. if we can tap into the heater lines and run them to the front of the car it might actually work, the heat exhanger will also not block the whole surface of the front allowing some fresh air still cooling the ac and rad.
I think you are on to something here. I cant excercise this right now but maybe later I will.
http://i2.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/f0/a0/b5_1_b.JPG

[hytorksc]

I see a point here. I remember my cobra heat exanger being small enough to fit in front of the car, that has my brain working now. those cobra heat exanger are dirt cheap since cobra owners toss them for bigger ones. if we can tap into the heater lines and run them to the front of the car it might actually work, the heat exhanger will also not block the whole surface of the front allowing some fresh air still cooling the ac and rad.
I think you are on to something here. I cant excercise this right now but maybe later I will.
http://i2.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/f0/a0/b5_1_b.JPG

i tried to see if the extra cooling done by turning the heater on at full blast in hotter weather would be significant- and the temp gage only moved from the "R" back to the "O". that didn't seem like much to me. but if the heat exchanger was big enough, i think it might do pretty good.

after reading several older posts here, i'm finding (including this post) simpler ways to increase cooling capacity. i think i have to take assessment of the real condition of my rad. it is still the original, which makes it bad to begin with. it won't hurt the situation to take an "overkill" view of cooling, the cheaper way. i can try the following;

1. install a new brass 3 core radiator (do what Tim did) with the widest fins possible, and biggest inlet/outlets (no pinch down areas).

2. cut out small sections of fins in a concentrated area on the AC condenser, making more air flow direct to the rad (i know this will cut AC cooling a little, but i rather have a cool engine than a blown head gasket).

3. install a robert shaw 180* therm, if i can still find one.

4. Maybe do what ricardoa1 is suggesting- setup a front mount auxilary rad- i can see some benefit from this if it's positioned not to bleed too much hot air into the main rad. Maybe some sort of air deflector mounted behind it so as to direct the hot air downward, but this would also mean taking off the air dam i think. you would have to install 2 small fans on this too.

I would like to see the SC have more than enough cooling capacity for once- not "just enough to get by". i want to have the ability to run up a mountain on the interstate highway with the AC on in 3rd, revving high rpms going above 100mph without the engine on the brink of grenading itself because of overheating- other cars do this just fine, why not ours? there's simply no excuse for this. my 2004 toyota camry can do this with the temp gage reading a steady cool, and it's a wimpy 4 banger (well it won't go above 100 up a mountain though). I don't normally drive this fast, i just want the capability.

[ricardoa1]

2. cut out small sections of fins in a concentrated area on the AC condenser, making more air flow direct to the rad (i know this will cut AC cooling a little, but i rather have a cool engine than a blown head gasket).


That was my idea also :D

[T@Sound-Xtreme]

Im pretty sure Mikes Alum rads are damn good from everything i heard ;)
Might wanna do a search into that, he knows about that kinda stuff.
If not get with mannysc, hes crazy and will think of something :D


Tyler

[hytorksc]

Im pretty sure Mikes Alum rads are damn good from everything i heard ;)
Might wanna do a search into that, he knows about that kinda stuff.
If not get with mannysc, hes crazy and will think of something :D


Tyler

i don't think he's making them anymore because i PM'd him weeks ago no response.

[David Neibert]

Over the years I've learned that the cooling system is barely large enough to keep a stock SC from overheating. There are many things you can do ranging from keeping the fans turned on to going with an aluminum radiator.

I did everything from t-stats, to air dams, to additional fans and even the re-cored radiator that Tim mentioned. While everyting helped a little, I didn't cure the problem until going to a Griffin aluminum. By cure, I mean able to drive the car in any weather at any speed for any length of time without getting over 200 degrees.

As you mentioned earlier many people still have a problem when using the AC with a FMIC. I'm one of them, and unless you cut some vents in the hood that will promote better airflow thru the radiator and reduce under hood temps, I don't think the problem will be solved. The vents must be after the radiator and before getting near the high pressure area area in front of the windsheild. You want high air pressure in front of the radiator and low air presure after it (under the hood).

The real problem with adding an auxiliary cooler is getting the coolant to flow thru it. Simply tapping into the inlet and outlet hoses of the radiator and plumbing the auxilary cooler in paralell, won't necessarly make it flow because the coolant will travel the path of least resistance. Obviously pluming it in series would make it flow, but the auxilary cooler would then have to be very large to run the entire volume of coolant thru it, and where to put it becomes an issue.

I think the best solution is the large aluminum radiator with dual fans and a shortened AC condensor to allow more fresh air to the radiator. It would also be helpful to have a chip that will prevent the EEC from turning the fans off at highway speeds.

David

[ricardoa1]

The real problem with adding an auxiliary cooler is getting the coolant to flow thru it. Simply tapping into the inlet and outlet hoses of the radiator and plumbing the auxilary cooler in paralell, won't necessarly make it flow because the coolant will travel the path of least resistance. Obviously pluming it in series would make it flow, but the auxilary cooler would then have to be very large to run the entire volume of coolant thru it, and where to put it becomes an issue.

David
Tapping into the inlet and outlets of the radiator might not be a good idea like you said. But the line that goes into the oil cooler will work not in parallel but in linear you just have to figure wich one is the the return line from the oil cooler so that the oil has cooled and then it will travel to the extra cooler. So if you run it as such it will work
"line in to oil cooler>>>>oil cooler>>>oil cooler out>>>line to extra cooler in>>>line from extra cooler out>>>then back to the line out of the oil cooler. That will work. and the lines will be close since the oil cooler is low and close to the front of the car.

I have lots of ideas but I cannot make them a reality. I have bigger problems with my car. Plus winter is comming around the bend I dont need A/c till next year.

[hytorksc]

Running an aux rad in series with the main rad was one of the 1st ideas i thought of too. I thought the aux rad did not have to be as big as the main one, it could be fed from the main rad bottom return outlet into the aux rad inlet, then from that outlet back to the water pump. if you use a rad the size and shape of that long rectangular cobra heat exchanger that ricardoa1 posted here, but with full size inlets and outlets, with a couple of small fans, i think it could work. you would position it as low as possible behind the front bumper near the plastic openings area in front of the air dam, then put an air deflector behind it to minimize hot air bleeding into the ac condenser/rad intake area. i just dont know if the effects from this are worth the effort. it's probably easier just to get a griffin, replace the ac condenser with a shorter one (or cut out some fins on the stock one), and have the fan run all the time. seems like somewhere on the forum i read about using a stock ford taurus fan which blows 1000 cfm (?) more than ours.
i also think a big part of our problem is coolant flow, have you ever noticed how small the impeller blades are inside the water pump?

[ricardoa1]

You dont really need the coolant hoses to be that big. plus the heat exanger inlets are not big either. If you notice running the vent fan to the heater core helps. I would bet this would work. Its not that much work once you get the exhanger positioned.
It will be cheaper then to cut fin lines out of the condensor, $80 to recharge. $75 for welding from a respectable welder. And if it leaks that another $80 to recharge.

[seawalkersee]

David, do you happen to know which part number you used for the Griffen rad? I was under the impression that they only made "stock" replacements. I was going to call summit with the dimentions and see if they had one that was close to the width and taller. I could have it cut down if necessary.

Chris

[David Neibert]

David, do you happen to know which part number you used for the Griffen rad? I was under the impression that they only made "stock" replacements. I was going to call summit with the dimentions and see if they had one that was close to the width and taller. I could have it cut down if necessary.

Chris

Chris,

I bought mine used from George, so I don't have any part numbers. Width and height are same as stock, but it's considerably thicker.

David

[seawalkersee]

K-thanks.

Chris