New source for head gaskets

Birdman93

Registered User
I just spoke with Bill at SCE Gaskets in Lancaster, CA-getting information about their Pro Copper head gaskets. He explained that these would not be a good alternative for our cars, and stated that the ICS Titan would be a much better gasket than the Fel-pro offerings or the 4.2 MLS gaskets that have become common in rebuilding SC V6s.

As he explained it-the problem is that with a layered gasket, combustion pressures over a period of time will separate the layers and cause a leak, usually between combustion chamber and coolant passage. The ICS Titan is an all metal construction with a wire o-ring combustion seal:

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I think that these gaskets are the cure we are looking for in preventing HG failures.

SCE will tool up a gasket for our cars-we would need to sell 50 pairs, plus have someone in the Lancaster, CA area provide a head and block for tooling purposes-we are looking at a 2 month wait as of now for tooling/production.

Is this something that we are interested in? I for one think that it would be nice to have a gasket without the issues of the current layered gaskets we use.
 
I'll believe it when I see it

If you want to continue running the risk of a HG failure-that's your choice.

If I can't get 50 guys & gals together for a purchase, I'll pay the costs of tooling myself. These are the same guys that build gaskets for the drag racing teams-they know their stuff.
 
Birdman93 said:
I think that these gaskets are the cure we are looking for in preventing HG failures.

But do they GUARANTEE? That's the big question. Will they provide any sort of warrantee? The idea sounds good enough, but "sounding" like a good thing and "BEING" a good thing are not always the same. If they can give us some good reason to believe what they claim, I would definately be in for a set. That is, assuming they are not astronomically priced. Will this type of gasket require the block and head to be machined as smooth as the MLS gaskets require?

Like I said, I would be in for a set.... but after the important questions are answered. If they will offer us nothing more than what we currently have, then it seems fruitless to me. However, thanx goes to you for taking the initiative to do the leg work and get the ball rolling. :cool:

Tracy
 
I might be in for buying a set, but I also would need info on pricing and head finishing before I can commit.
 
This is an excellent gasket alternative! The question regarding necessary block preperation is a valid one. However there is no reason to doubt the quality of the gasket or it's ability to seal long term. With the introduction of superchargers capable of exceeding 20psi on our motors, the future will require an ultra high performance part such as this.

Since the Cometic thing fell through, I would look forward to seeing this happen. It would be a big help to the SC community to have this product available.
 
Birdman93,
It is good to see we have another alternative, but the reason the head gasket blowing is detonation not design per say. The combustion chambers on our heads need to be polished to stop hot spots from forming. I have blew heads in my 92 at 92k. I have had two motors rebuilt with FelPro replacements and not had a problem and I am running over 15psi on boost. I might be interested, but do you have a price range for these ICS Titans? FYI....I can get a set of MLS for under $60 from Ford.

Thanks
Ken
 
I will be rebuilding after the holidays and will be interested. Obviously, I am concerned about the specified preperations for mating surfaces and cost.

Doug
 
Yeah, lets get a price range and some discussion on mating surfaces...

I will be ready to install in a couple-few months... So I'd buy a set if the details look good!
 
There are no surface preparations required. These are copper gaskets, and will seal against imperfections in the block and head left from machining.

The MLS gaskets from Ford WILL fail-they are still a elastomeric/steel sandwich design, and over time the elastomer will fail. As Bill explained it, the ring that seals the compression chamber has a specific memory, allowing it to heat and shrink with the cycles of the motor. Once you hit a point of mileage where the memory is gone (70k-110k), continued cycling forces the metal out and away from the cylinder wall, breaking it and forming a leak.

SCE ICS Titans use copper gaskets with integral sealing at oil and coolant holes-the copper is engineered to become MORE resistant to pressure as it goes through the heating and cooling process-you can compare this to an annealing process, which makes metals more resistant to stress.

The gaskets will be available in 5 thicknesses.

I for one will be getting away from the layered gasket and using an SCE Titan gasket for my Thunderbird-and paying the costs of tooling-since it seems like no one else wants to do this.

As far as guarantee-do Felpro or Ford warranty their gaskets? Both sites state no warranties are implied or given.
 
Birdman93 said:
since it seems like no one else wants to do this.

For goodness sakes man, your post has been here for a whopping 3 hours and you've already closed the door on folks. (BTW there is a forum for discussions like this) ;)

I'd be interested after some more discussion. I'm concerned about the cold water leakage that's been reported by others using copper gaskets in the past. How does their design adress this? Can they discuss any special specific machining that while not required, would be ideal?
 
I for one will be getting away from the layered gasket and using an SCE Titan gasket for my Thunderbird-and paying the costs of tooling-since it seems like no one else wants to do this.

Take it easy...the post has only been up for a couple hours.

More questions...Will these Titian gaskets require retorquing like the other SCE copper gaskets ? If so how often will that need to be done ?

David
 
Birdman93 said:
As far as guarantee-do Felpro or Ford warranty their gaskets? Both sites state no warranties are implied or given.


Does SCE gaskets warranty the ICS Titans???? (I did not see anything on their website) I know Ford warranties their parts for 90 days to 1 year. Ford Motorsports has no warranties except their engines now.

You will have alot of questions to answer because you are trying to introduce a new product. Use this as a tool to guage interest.

Good Luck
Ken
 
When mine blow I would be looking for something durable like this. SC guys are the most nit-picky group as far as products go. You can offer a free item and they will still ask you what kind of shape its in and if you will ship if for free and warranty it. :) Maybe that comes from years of working on these things all the time? All in all, answering these questions will end up in a better product.

My question is, If they were aware of the gasket issues this car has, why arent they tooling these up themselves, seems like money in the bank if they have a good product.
 
Agreed. I think they will sell plenty of gaskets if the price is reasonable. I don't have money coming out of every orifice ... but I will still pay extra for a better part. I don't like buying anything twice, much less doing twice the labor on an SC (frustration factor).
 
7birdslater said:
My question is, If they were aware of the gasket issues this car has, why arent they tooling these up themselves, seems like money in the bank if they have a good product.

That question is easy to answer. Most people are too cheap to spend the money required to get a superior part. Therefore, most people needing to replace headgaskets will most likely not spend a premium on better gaskets, just to "get their car back on the road".

As for me, if these gaskets are proven superior to the current available options, I will be buying when needed.
 
There have been several comments made on this thread which would be discouraging to anyone working on this deal. The head gasket deal has nothing to do with me but I feel compelled to say a few things about it.

1) Warranty. Give me a break! No gasket comes with a warranty that I know of. There are too many variables involved and in any case proper installation is always key to the life of any gasket. Guarantee? You're kidding right? Look at the company's track record for an idea of how good the product is or isn't.

2) Ford OE and Felpro. The original OE gasket (made by Felpro) was defective. Ford subsequently changed the design (still Felpro) and recalled 1000's of cars (most of which were NOT supercharged). It has subsequently been more or less determined that not only was the gasket inadequate but the engine has serious design and machining flaws which make long term sealing diffucult This is one reason why Ford went to an MLS gasket in 97/98.

3) A composite gasket will fail eventually, and if what Anthony says is accurate, so will an MLS gasket.

4) I asked about surface prep. I DID go to the website and read everything that was there. Nothing was said there about ideal surface RA so I sent them an email asking that specific question. Perhaps I just don't know enough about copper gaskets, perhaps it is normal that block machining isn't required? Or maby they just assume you'd at least do a standard deck job on your motor.

5) The website didnt' say anything that I recall about re-torquing the heads. This could certainly be an issue with an SC due to the amount of dissasembly required to do this, but it's not a deal breaker.

6) In my experience I have observed that the vast majority of SC owners are MORE than willing to spend money to not have to do something twice. Ask BHJ how many balancers they have sold to get if this is so.

7) Perhaps some people can get OE Ford MLS gaskets for $60/pr but I sure can't. I pay $60 each side. The fact that these new gaskets are re-useable would have saved me money right there!

8) Why don't companies make more parts for us? Several reasons. First of all they don't recognise the SC as a performance vehicle. This doesn't mean they won't recognise one that performs, it just means that even though we think SC's are where it's at, most other people in this world don't even know what one is. This includes parts manufacturers. I have found that many companies are very interested in making parts for us. The problem is that we
represent a very small community (600 members) and when an initiative is made people banter back and forth, argue, dissagree, and ultimately don't put forward a unified voice from which to get things done. The fact that SC owners who hang out here won't ante up the $15 to become a member of a club that recognizes them is baffling to anyone in business. People are so worried about "what's in it for me" that they miss the big picture. It starts here. If your car isn't worth $15 to you then how can we expect a company to invest several thousand dollars in tooling/production costs to make stuff for us.

I realize I am preaching to the choir here because most of you are members and I know that many of you do buy a good product made for the SC even if you don't necessarily need them (Kurt comes to mind here) so this isn't meant as a slam to anyone. However, when you go to a manufacturer and they ask you how many club members you have and you say "600", you just don't get much notice. That's how it is.

:)
 
XR7 Dave said:
...I know that many of you do buy a good product made for the SC even if you don't necessarily need them (Kurt comes to mind here)
Thanks for noticing :rolleyes: :D

I WILL use the parts eventually. :)
 
I'd be in for a few sets.A price estimate would be great.

Basically its a copper gasket that you dont need to oring a block for...AND less chance of coolant leakage.

Sounds great to me!..

And about warrenties....Sure we will warrenty your 100$ part...But not the 1,500 to replace it!
 
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