PDA

View Full Version : How Long Do You Have to Crank Your SC B4 It Starts???



SuperCoupe007
11-25-2005, 04:50 AM
Hey guys I was wondering how long your SC has to crank before it starts ?? I have a N/A and my SC. My LX doesn't even have to crank one second and it starts right away, while my SC on the other hand takes two or three seconds and then it starts away. I am not sure what I would need to do to make my SC start just like my N/A. any help or ideas would be great...
Thanks....
:)

J.D.
11-25-2005, 09:05 AM
I noticed the same difference between my N/A and SC. I think a delay is preferable because it allows the engine to get lubricated before it starts.

TbirdSCFan
11-25-2005, 11:07 AM
The EEC counts 5 revolutions of the engine before the coils fire. Probably means the SC won't bump-start very well either. ;)

Blown 91 Bird
11-25-2005, 12:45 PM
mine takes a couple revolutions before it starts up

Jim Cook
11-25-2005, 12:58 PM
Keep in mind that you are cranking the blower too. Bypass valve is closed until the engine develops enough vacuum to open the bypass and unload the blower.

David Neibert
11-25-2005, 01:55 PM
The EEC counts 5 revolutions of the engine before the coils fire. Probably means the SC won't bump-start very well either. ;)

Really...mine usually fires off imediantly.

David

nickleman60
11-25-2005, 02:48 PM
mine starts right away

TbirdSCFan
11-25-2005, 05:03 PM
Really...mine usually fires off imediantly.

DavidThe Ford service manager told me this years ago when I took him for a ride to demonstrate my failing cam sensor. I drove the car around a bit, stopped it, tried to crank it and it was a hard start. He mentioned the cam sensor and the 5 count logic, we took it back to the shop, they replaced the cam sensor and viola.. no more problem.

My usual start takes about 2 seconds, always has. Sometimes, if I let off the key before its catches and then retry, it will bog and grind (as if the battery were drained) as the ECC advances timing way off. A firmware bug. But key-off and retry and everything works just fine. I've had this too-advanced-timing hard start problem from year 1. It seems to happen more often when the car is hot. However, since I know what the conditions are, I never encounter the problem anymore. Its not that the problem doesn't still exist, I just avoid it. :cool:

Note, this is the 90 year model EEC. Some bugs were no doubt fixed in latter years. ;)

TbirdSCFan
11-25-2005, 09:59 PM
OK.. so I counted this time.. with a warm engine, it was about 1 second from key forward to when it caught. I heard 4 starter phase noises.. something like this: "1 2 3 4.. run". :)

SuperCoupe007
11-25-2005, 10:03 PM
Well the funny thing is that sometimes when the engine is cold it takes a few seconds for it to start. If I were to crank the motor for a second and turn the ignition off before it starts I could crank it over and it would start in a beat, It would start like lighting a match... Oh yeah, it has a OEM FORD cam sensor and crank sensor... I think my timming might be off. :confused:

J.D.
11-26-2005, 12:24 AM
Hot or cold, mine takes a few seconds to start. If I release the ignition key too soon, and immediately try again, it starts without the usual delay.

darkstar_one
11-26-2005, 04:33 AM
mines starts about 4 or 5 crank turns... but first i turn the key on so i can let the fuel pump pressurize.... starts better... but i think i need to replace my cam sensor also

Flip
11-26-2005, 09:25 AM
My 93 fires right up, the 89 takes a couple of seconds to fire up, changed out starter, cam sensor, new battery and cables, checked all grounds? Still takes a couple of seconds to fire up and seems to crank over a little slower then the 93. Runs great….

Jeremy_K
11-26-2005, 01:16 PM
Since Darkside and I relocated our batteries to the trunk we noticed that it takes an extra second or 2 to start. When I sanded down the paint to bare metal where the grounds connect from the engine it cranked right over like it used to with the battery in the engine bay. A bad ground will have you confused all day if you don't check for that first. I've found this out the hard and expensive way:o .

JimmyDean
11-27-2005, 05:59 PM
My '90 with 175k miles starts up instantly. Turn the key, crankboom.

SuperCoupe007
11-28-2005, 12:21 AM
JimmyDean::::::::

I wish mine started up just like yours. I hate it when i crank the car over for 3 or 4 seconds and it still doesn't start. The people in my car look at me and usually say "whats wrong with your car?" :confused: and since I don't know whats wrong with it, I tell them that "I don't know" :( :( I am gonna check all grounds and all wiring under the hood to see if anything is loose or if anything looks dirty. :o

TbirdSCFan
11-28-2005, 01:09 PM
Pull codes.. maybe there's a hint somewhere. :cool:

j rick kirby
11-30-2005, 10:30 AM
I've had mine 17 years and have always wondered what that hard start/timming advance deal was.I've wondered from time to time if somehow the chain jumped but the decide not when it runs fine.

Young-SC-Owner
03-07-2009, 01:14 AM
I know this is OLD, but is there really a firmware fault, with the release too early ignition sequence, and the next crank, cranks like it was timing way off?
Mine has done it a few times, and more recently ill crank it up and run...Then turn it off and go to start it again than its like crank crank crankrankkkkkkkkand Barely starts...Dont know why, runs fine when it is!!
Ill never understand these cars....:(

KMT
03-07-2009, 01:52 AM
I know this is OLD, but is there really a firmware fault, with the release too early ignition sequence, and the next crank, cranks like it was timing way off?
Mine has done it a few times, and more recently ill crank it up and run...Then turn it off and go to start it again than its like crank crank crankrankkkkkkkkand Barely starts...Dont know why, runs fine when it is!!
Ill never understand these cars....:(

When the DIS misses out on the cylinder ID from the camshaft sensor (as one example), during an engine start, it guesses...if it guesses wrong, the engine will act like the battery has gone south and/or the starter is dragging - because...the timing is essentially off. Key off repeat and it guesses again. Odds are 1-in-3 (since the coil fires two plugs at once) that it will guess right and the engine will fire and run on the substitute ID value. The exact term involved I think you may mean is 'Failure Mode Effects Management (FMEM)'. This is when the DIS and EEC work together to allow the car to run so it can at least be taken in for repairs.

Can imagine that many owners think the battery/starter etc. is to blame (when in fact they are ok) and just put up with it. Of course there is always the opportunity for those to be at fault, just to spice things up :)

XR7 Dave
03-07-2009, 11:37 AM
1)The EEC does not wait any certain # of revolutions before firing the coil. Some people have been fooled when watching a timing light by the fact that an engine with a coil pack only fires each wire once per rotation as opposed to a distributor car firing the coil wire 3 times per rotation. However, the cam sensor has to synchronize with the crank sensor before a firing can occur. This means that there will always be a slight delay (typically in the order of 2 compression events which is less than 1 revolution) before firing.

2) The hard cranking phenomenon that often occurs when a normal start is unsuccessful (generally on the second complete revolution of the motor which is about 2 seconds of steady cranking) is caused by the wasted spark system and not indicative of any particular fault. If the fuel mixture does not light off for some reason during compression, it will often light off during the exhaust stroke which will try to force the piston back down. This bogs the starter down and makes it seem like the motor is out of time. It's not out of time, it's just that the wrong spark is firing the mixture. This is normal and my XR7 has also done this periodically since it was new.

3) Hard starting in general usually can be traced to one of several real problems.


Do not overlook a dry starter. If the starter spins the motor over faster it will start better. If you have an original starter it will be pretty much dry inside, and if you have a reman, well they don't prelube them worth a darn so taking your starter apart and lubing it with a high quality synthetic lube (I use Synergyn Synthetic Assembly Lube, for example) the rpm of the starter will probably increase 50-100% which will dramatically improve starting. As was mentioned above, clean battery connections will also help.
Weak fuel pump or FPR. If your car bleeds down pressure quickly or doesn't build full fuel pressure during the 4 second pump priming sequence, then you will experience hard starting.
Dirty MAF. Contrary to popular belief, the MAF is used during crank to determine fuel requirements. If the MAF is dirty the engine will receive reduced fuel during crank which will lead to hard starting.
Tune. For the above reason, if your tune is off or not set up for your injector sizes, then you may experience poor starting performance.
Generally poor starting is caused by insufficient fuel so a vacuum leak will also result in hard starting.


Hope that helps some.

Young-SC-Owner
03-07-2009, 12:07 PM
1)The EEC does not wait any certain # of revolutions before firing the coil. Some people have been fooled when watching a timing light by the fact that an engine with a coil pack only fires each wire once per rotation as opposed to a distributor car firing the coil wire 3 times per rotation. However, the cam sensor has to synchronize with the crank sensor before a firing can occur. This means that there will always be a slight delay (typically in the order of 2 compression events which is less than 1 revolution) before firing.

2) The hard cranking phenomenon that often occurs when a normal start is unsuccessful (generally on the second complete revolution of the motor which is about 2 seconds of steady cranking) is caused by the wasted spark system and not indicative of any particular fault. If the fuel mixture does not light off for some reason during compression, it will often light off during the exhaust stroke which will try to force the piston back down. This bogs the starter down and makes it seem like the motor is out of time. It's not out of time, it's just that the wrong spark is firing the mixture. This is normal and my XR7 has also done this periodically since it was new.

3) Hard starting in general usually can be traced to one of several real problems.


Do not overlook a dry starter. If the starter spins the motor over faster it will start better. If you have an original starter it will be pretty much dry inside, and if you have a reman, well they don't prelube them worth a darn so taking your starter apart and lubing it with a high quality synthetic lube (I use Synergyn Synthetic Assembly Lube, for example) the rpm of the starter will probably increase 50-100% which will dramatically improve starting. As was mentioned above, clean battery connections will also help.
Weak fuel pump or FPR. If your car bleeds down pressure quickly or doesn't build full fuel pressure during the 4 second pump priming sequence, then you will experience hard starting.
Dirty MAF. Contrary to popular belief, the MAF is used during crank to determine fuel requirements. If the MAF is dirty the engine will receive reduced fuel during crank which will lead to hard starting.
Tune. For the above reason, if your tune is off or not set up for your injector sizes, then you may experience poor starting performance.
Generally poor starting is caused by insufficient fuel so a vacuum leak will also result in hard starting.


Hope that helps some.

Great Info!,
I mean, its got a new starter. New clean MAF, but these were just things i did as preventative maint. I was just curious as to why it did that phenomenon. Sounds like everything is normal!!. Except for some reason I cant break that 22MPG barrier!..At what speed does the MPG usually start to fall off?

NickM
03-07-2009, 03:48 PM
Great Info!,
I mean, its got a new starter. New clean MAF, but these were just things i did as preventative maint. I was just curious as to why it did that phenomenon. Sounds like everything is normal!!. Except for some reason I cant break that 22MPG barrier!..At what speed does the MPG usually start to fall off?

I don't know exactly, but it is way in excess of the legal limit on any intersate (for most SC's).
Mine knocks down about 26 at 65, but about 28 at 75-80.
Still running on year old gas-need to burn it up and get some fresh in there.
BTW, XR7Dave, thanks for the explanation on the starter bog-I figured it was way advanced timing, now I know exactly what it is.

Nick

Young-SC-Owner
03-07-2009, 03:57 PM
Well then, i need to figure out why i cant break 22~

KMT
03-08-2009, 04:36 PM
Well then, i need to figure out why i cant break 22~

According to Dave, it's normal...you don't have any issues.