PDA

View Full Version : Scat H-Beam Connecting Rods - Possible



Mike8675309
12-08-2005, 05:19 PM
Just checking to see if there is any interest in a group by on Scat connecting rods. I need to pick some up for my motor.

A set of 8 is $429. If I can get 3 other people we would be buying 3 sets of 8 for a total 4 sets of 6. The 3 set of 8 price is $399.

This works out to $299.25 per set of 6.

This would be Scat #2-351-6200-2311-927 rods which are Ford 351W H-beam rods made of forged 4340 Chrome steel 6.2" long, with a 2.311 journal and bushed .927 rod end and with 3/8" ARP 8740 Cap Screws. (ARP 2000 fasteners extra) (**** Standard Ford piston pin size for SC pistons is .912 *** Scat doesn't make a 6.2" rod with a .912 end, go with 6.125 if you want longer rods and stock pin size)

YOU MUST HAVE CUSTOM PISTONS MADE TO FIT THESE RODS IN YOUR SC MOTOR

If someone knows of a better deal around, let me know.

People Interested?
Me [PAID]
Birdman93 [dropped out]
Blown38 [PAID]
V8Supercoupe [PAID]
Randy N Connie [PAID]

Final price is $278.74 for a set. See the first post of page 2 for info.

Randy N Connie
12-09-2005, 10:32 AM
Mike would you know the wieght of the Scat rods compaired to the stock rod?

Thanks Randy

seawalkersee
12-09-2005, 11:13 AM
What has to be done to the rods to be able to adapt them to our cranks? As far a the pistons go, I think the Diamond guys would be able to hook us up.

Chris

Mike8675309
12-09-2005, 02:35 PM
Nothing needs to be done to the crank to fit the rods. Our journal size matches the 351w at 2.311.

Talked with Brian at SCAT. Weight on these rods is 630grams My stock rods are still pressed onto the pistons but I can see if I can get a weight. I expect the H beam rods to be heavier than stock. Though with the smaller compression height of the piston used to fit the longer rod, total assembly weight will likely be down.

Note I'm using Weisco pistons that were from the Group Buy that XR7 Dave sponsered. I believe that's going to allow him to now get that group buy price regularly. You may want to contact him if planning on ordering pistons to see what's available.

seawalkersee
12-09-2005, 03:34 PM
What are the factory 5.8 rods good to? HP wise? I mean, if they are lighter and are good to like 500 ponies, you could just pic up a set from the bone yard, have them bushed and be out like 200 instead of 4.

Chris

Mike8675309
12-09-2005, 07:53 PM
New pistons are in hand.

I wouldn't trust unworked stock rods much over 350rwhp for long term reliability. I would trust stock pistons over 400rwhp for long term reliability.

I was planing to build for around 380rwhp in 2004. Since that time I have found the Auto-Rotor, and more recently the MPIII showing greater potential for our cars. Thus my target has jumped well over 400rwhp.

With that jump, the decision became to go with Forged Pistons. With that decision I then gained the ability to get stronger rods, so I'm going for it. Going with the longer rod gains some benefits that I didn't want to pass up the chance to take.

There are a handful of SC owners that are already running 6.2 long H beam rods in their motors and I haven't heard of anyone that wishes they hadn't.

With the longer rod I will also be bumping up my compression ratio, one of the benefits of the longer rod. I brought to the top an old article where this was discussed in the tech forum.

seawalkersee
12-09-2005, 11:31 PM
Well...Slysc runs 12.5s on his. He has the long rod combo...Hopefully he will chime in here.

Chris

Mike8675309
12-10-2005, 12:41 AM
No need, those that want such connecting rods, know who they are. If those folks want to work a deal together, just let me know. i'll probably be ordering, group or not come January.

I'm gonna see if any v6power boys want in.

Birdman93
12-10-2005, 01:21 AM
Mike-

I'll jump in on a group buy-I already have a custom forged crank from SCAT-H-beams and a set of pistons would complete my rotating assembly.

Mike8675309
12-10-2005, 01:53 PM
this is for rods. not pistons. If you want pistons hit up XR7 Dave and see if he can source some for you.

This is going to be specifically SCAT H Beam rods with a 6.2" length. (Stock sc rods are 5.915" long, stock 351W rods are 5.955)

Woops, re-read.. I think you need rods and pistons? Is that right?

Mike8675309
12-10-2005, 03:25 PM
Went and talked to shop that will be doing my machine work. Nice guys. He pressed the pin out and weighed my stock stuff for me.

Stock piston w/pin - 669 grams
Stock connecting rod - 662 grams

So these SCAT H-beam rods are 32 grams lighter yet still .204" longer and quite a bit stronger. All pluses from what I understand. What do you think Randy?

XxSlowpokexX
12-10-2005, 07:17 PM
Mike the longer rod in and of itself isnt going to increase your compression ratio. Its all dependant on how the aftermarket piston was designed. I dont recall actual weights but I think I remeber the forged pstons (I have Diamonds) being lighter however the H beam rods I have were heavier then stock 94/95 rods. Are those numbers correct for the stock and aftermarket rods?.

Mike8675309
12-10-2005, 09:33 PM
Stock rods are correct, just had one weighed after pressing the pin out today. These are from a 1993 motor.

The new rod weights I received were from a person I talked to (Brian) at SCAT on Friday.

I'm sorry if what I stated implied the longer rod "GAVE" me a different compression ratio. What the longer rod provides is the ability to use a slightly higher compression ratio due to the increased dwell at TDC due to the longer rod.

My pistons from Weisco via XR7 Dave are 501g. Haven't weighed the pins yet. Figure 90grams.

So Stock:
Piston w/pin : 669g
ConRod: 662g
Total: 1331 g X 6 = 7986

My New Parts:
Piston w/Pin(est pin 90g) : 591
ConRod: 630g
Total: 1221 X 6 = 7326

A decrease of 660 grams total with the Wiseco Pistons + Scat rods.

Note that my pistons are a little lighter than a stock forged unit due to the 1.326 compression height to accept the longer rod.

seawalkersee
12-10-2005, 10:13 PM
Thats a pretty good gain on the inside of the engine. Are you running an auto or a stick? If you have not run a lightened (this little bit wont matter) assy. on your clutch and such, you will find it is a tad tougher to drive. You have to build up the RPMs a bit more because you lose the bottom end torque. Like I said...1320g is not going to make that much difference (that would be the same amount taken out of your weights) but it will be a happier engine. Espically with the extra dwell.

Now, on a different subject, what kind of rings are they suggesting here? Since you have a longer dwell, would you want to step up to a medium or light tension ring? Maybe I am off base here but I think there should be some sort of corolation here.

Chris

Mike8675309
12-10-2005, 10:57 PM
Have a spec stage 2 clutch with their light weight flywheel in a box in my garage.

I'll be using Total Seal Gapless rings. Hadn't considered anything else. I'm building the motor myself (with lots of input from folks re the under 400 rwhp thread in the member forum) and XR7 Dave is very helpful. I haven't had any suggestions re specific ring tensions.

The extra dwell, while not a lot will call for some consideration when building the heads/cam package as well as consideration in tuning. As it should be able to handle a little more timing than an otherwise stock configuration.

This rod, by no means is some magic bullet. It just happens to be the rod I've chosen to go with, for various reasons, and I'm looking to see if others are interested so we can save some money. Seems a waste to just have two extra rods laying around that I had to pay for.

no164ford
12-11-2005, 03:43 PM
I have a new set (6) of Eagle 4340 351w H-beam rods 5.956 long for sale if anyone wants them. PM me an offer if you do.

yardbird
12-11-2005, 09:50 PM
Mike8675309---
I am going the same route w/6.2 rods (Cat H-beams 2.31/9.12)
As soon as I can get an accurate figure on DH of the block, I will also be ordering from DD. 1.326 sounds about what I am looking at, but need to comfirm the dish volumn for the wiscos.
Are you going for quench rather than 0 deck? I am not sure, depending on dish volumn, but may look at around -.005 (above deck). I dont plan much, if any, over 9 to one and am not sure of that w/mpIII or S/MPII

YB :)

Mike8675309
12-12-2005, 12:20 AM
Check out page 2 of Daves Piston group by thread. It's got the specs I used for mine. There are pictures as well on page 3. I went with a 9:1 compression ratio. There are pictures in that thread as well of the pistons we received. I believe Dave wants to work with them for a less standard more specialized quench area into the piston. So you might benefit from version 2 of those pistons.

Final deck height will depend on final machining. I used 9.22 (deck height) in my calculations but for final finish will shoot for a piston placement that is ever so slightly above deck. Thats what the 1.326 compression height with 6.2 rods gave me. (.001 above deck)

Jason Wild
12-12-2005, 02:01 AM
anyreason we dont want to use eagle rods you can get stock size for about 220 for 6

XR7 Dave
12-12-2005, 08:26 AM
anyreason we dont want to use eagle rods you can get stock size for about 220 for 6

No you can't, where?

Mike8675309
12-12-2005, 02:33 PM
Eagle doesn't supply the 6.2 length that I'm looking for, but they do have the other lengths in an H-beam and would work fine. Since I had to get custom pistons made anyway, I figured I'd go with the longer rod since to use a 351 rod anyway you need a custom piston.

Eagle and Scat both get their H-beam rods off the same press in China. They are effectively the same animals.

Jason Wild
12-12-2005, 03:20 PM
Dave that price was for I beam Eagle rods but I did find someone that will sell eagle H beam for 300 for a set of 6 if we get 4 people. there was one other place selling scat or eagle since they all come from the same place for 225 for a set of 6 as well the group buy thing.

I had though that eagle rods were made in the USA not over in china since a lot of stuff is still sub par to what you think your getting.

XR7 Dave
12-12-2005, 04:38 PM
Its all made in China. CAT is even cheaper yet (about $50/rod I think) and copies the SCAT stuff.

I-beams are cheaper for sure.

Mike8675309
12-12-2005, 05:00 PM
I'd love to get the 6.2" length cheaper, but I'm staying away from CAT. Going H-beam for the additional strength.

The forging of the parts is done overseas, the steel used is from overseas, the final work for Eagle and Scat is done in the USA. (CAT and Manly also use the same foundry.) It's the only way the could get prices this low.

Note that SCAT claims to keep their rod sets within + or - 1gram of weight. Thus if I had 4 people looking for rods I'd work with the vendor to make sure the final set (made up from the extra's from 3) are also within 1gram of weight.

If you do order from someone making sets of 6 for you, I'd make sure the weight tollerance is maintained.

www.cnc-motorsports.com is where I've been using to look at the different options. For the deal I'm working with MAS Performance in St. Paul, MN.

Birdman93
12-13-2005, 11:08 AM
Being within + or - one gram will not make much difference to me. Once the rotating assembly is together, along with a new flexplate, I'm having the whole unit rebalanced-hopefully to a internal balance. Not sure it can be done, but giving it my best try, thanks to an Indianapolis speed shop.:D

Mike8675309
12-13-2005, 03:01 PM
Rods and pistons are static balanced. Then with those weights, they rig up bob weights that are attached to the crankshaft and other items like the flywheel/flexplate, and balancer. Then that assembly is spun up and balanced.

I can't imagine a speed shop in Indianapolis that can't get 'er done.

seawalkersee
12-13-2005, 06:36 PM
Uhhh...I though the SC was internally balanced. Either way, all you would need was a 0 balance balancer and flexplate. 0 is 0 no matter if its inside or out.

Chris

Mike8675309
12-13-2005, 11:30 PM
The SC is internally balanced. But if you pull it all apart and put new parts into it, you need to re-balance everything back to zero. When doing that, it's best to include all rotating parts including the balancer and the flywheel.

Both balancer and flywheel will be zero balanced but when bolted to the crankshaft, the crankshaft deflects slightly, which can change it's balance. Thus including those gets a much more accurate internal balance for the motor. Not to mention adding a bunch of zero balanced items (which really are only .0004 zero balanced) together can add some error into the zero that can be accounted for now.

Sorry that this thread is turning into a tech lesson.

I'll get in touch with Birdman93 after I talk with my parts supplier and see what kind of deal he can do for me. I'm going to be ordering a bunch of ARP bolts, bearings, and gaskets through him so hopefully I can get a good deal on the rods even with only two orders being placed.

If we can get 2 more folks, for sure we'll get the best deal.

seawalkersee
12-14-2005, 02:23 PM
The .0004 is actually pretty good for a fudge factor. When my lower was balanced on my 357, it was 80%. He explained it to me as having a tollerance of .4g which is supposed to be the weight of oil on the parts. That being said... .0004 is good.

Chris

Randy N Connie
12-15-2005, 08:53 AM
Mike have you notice in the ad work of these rod manufactures
if they offer titainium rods?

Has any one looked into rods made by Corrello (sp)



Thanks Randy

David Neibert
12-15-2005, 01:49 PM
Mike,

When using a 6.2" rod, does the wrist pin hole on the piston intersect with any of the ring lands ?

David

Mike8675309
12-15-2005, 09:50 PM
Randy, I'm looking to do what I can, and while I know that Corello would be a better rod, I'm not up to the cost that custom built rods would be. Chevy 350 rods are much more common wiith manufacturers like Corello.

It would only be someone actually manufacturing the rods in North America that's going to be making titanium rods. I don't believe SCAT can.

These rods that I'm buying and looking for others on are probably near the top of the bottom of the barrel rods. They are as good as you can get for the dollars.

Dave, below is a picture of the piston ordered for 6.2" rods next to my old piston. The pin comes just below the oil ring.

That is a 1.326 compression height and with the 6.2 rod will give me a 9.221" assembled height. I'll be shooting for a 9.22 deck height.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23/tcw_fort/carparts/pistoncompare.jpg

XxSlowpokexX
12-20-2005, 12:39 PM
I guess there also should be discussion of the advantages and disadvantages of going with a longer rod and how to come with the optimum rod lenght. Should actually open up a tech post on this to answer questions

Here is somethimg to read as there is good information on the subject (as well as bad of course) http://forums.corner-carvers.com/archive/index.php/t-1745.html

Mike8675309
12-20-2005, 10:49 PM
It's been discussed before and my heads/cam will not be stock, the blower will be stock 2006, but not in 2007. Take any discussion of pro/cons for longer rods into that thread if possible.:
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23811&highlight=longer+rods

i'll be going to the parts place tomorrow (if matt is back from being sick) and see if I can work out any kind of deal.

I'll be ordering rods next week. Let me know if anyone else is interested.
Just checking to see if there is any interest in a group by on Scat connecting rods. I need to pick some up for my motor.

For those that don't want to go to the top of the thread, here is the deal thus far.. note only me and one other person are showing interest, thus the want to cut a deal, plus get the price with the ARP 2000 fasteners:

A set of 8 is $429. If I can get 3 other people we would be buying 3 sets of 8 for a total 4 sets of 6. The 3 set of 8 price is $399.

This works out to $299.25 per set of 6.

This would be Scat #2-351-6200-2311-927 rods which are Ford 351W H-beam rods made of forged 4340 Chrome steel 6.2" long, with a 2.311 journal and bushed .927 rod end and with 3/8" ARP 8740 Cap Screws. (ARP 2000 fasteners extra)

seawalkersee
12-21-2005, 08:19 PM
Hey Mike, my monitor sucks. Are the pins in the oil groove or not?

Chris

Mike8675309
12-21-2005, 09:25 PM
The top of the pin hole is about 1/16" of an inch below the bottom edge for the oil ring.

seawalkersee
12-21-2005, 11:24 PM
Wish I could get in on the rods for ya here...I think that is going to make a NICE combo for ya.

Chris

BLOWN38
12-26-2005, 10:57 PM
Mike, I'd like to get in on this GP if you still need someone . Not in any big hurry so if you still need to round up more people just let me know when and how you would like payment. You can just PM me.

Thanks, Chris

Mike8675309
12-26-2005, 11:09 PM
I'll add you to the list.

I'm waiting for my parts guy to get back to me. I gave him all the stuff I needed last Wed, and I think he's having trouble tracking down the bearings I'm looking for.

Once I get final info from him I'll contact those that expressed interest to see if it's still a go.

Thanks.

Mike8675309
12-29-2005, 05:09 PM
Looks like I can get the price with standard ARP 8740 bolts (plenty for us and our RPM range) at $377 a pack of 8. That's $282.75 for a set of 6.

We've got 3 buyers so far, need one more to close the deal. Otherwise I'll just make up the difference to get it done.

Only extra cost would be shipping to you from my door in MN.

Mike8675309
01-05-2006, 06:53 PM
Group buy is on. Costs went down a bit for the initial shipping so final price per person (set) is $278.74.

The Following People have expressed interest:
V8Supercoupe (Skip) [PAID]
Blown38 (Chris) [PAID]
Birdman93 (Anthony)
Me (Mike) [PAID]

They have been PM'ed with the details for the purchase.

If you want to get in on some rods we would need 4 more sets to be ordered so we can order even sets of rods. We can't order rods seperately.

Randy N Connie
01-06-2006, 12:34 PM
Mike I will buy one set if you have any extra,or someone do's not come up with the cash.

Thanks Randy

Mike8675309
01-10-2006, 09:57 PM
Randy,
Right now there is one left and it's allocated to Birdman93. He needs until the end of the month to have the funds and i'm giving him that time. If in the end he chooses to wait for any reason I'll try to get in touch with you.

I've got enough funds now to place the order, I'll cover the 4th set for now. I'll transfer the paypal funds into my account and as soon as paypal gets that done I'll place the order. Hopefully tomorrow.

I'll let everone know when the order is placed and then when the ETA for delivery is.

Thanks.

Mike

Randy N Connie
01-10-2006, 10:30 PM
MIKE thanks , give me a e-mail when ever.

Randy

seawalkersee
01-11-2006, 04:14 AM
Im going to try to get a set of the 351 football rods. I guess they are pretty strong. I hope they are not TOO heavy...with my new aluminum flywheel.:D

Chris

seawalkersee
01-11-2006, 04:15 AM
Im going to try to get a set of the 351 football rods. I guess they are pretty strong. I hope they are not TOO heavy...with my new aluminum flywheel.:D

Chris

Mike8675309
01-13-2006, 11:35 AM
The rods have been ordered and I've been told I should see them middle of next week.

If I can have them by Wed I should have them out to those that purchased them by Friday.

Mike

fastsc92
01-13-2006, 01:43 PM
whats the center to center distance on the stock rods??

Mike8675309
01-13-2006, 02:00 PM
whats the center to center distance on the stock rods??

Stock SC rods are 5.912"

Stock 351W rods are 5.955"

Mike8675309
01-18-2006, 10:56 AM
Didn't get a tracking number as they had to have the rods drop shipped from SCAT. They left Scat on Monday so I should see them end of this week, or first thing Monday.

Mike8675309
01-20-2006, 12:29 PM
Rods came in today. I'll be shipping them out to those that paid on Monday.

Mike

Mike8675309
01-24-2006, 11:40 AM
Two sets were shipped yesterday. you've got PM's with the tracking numbers.

Mike8675309
01-24-2006, 05:02 PM
**Heads up**

The 6.2" length rods from Scat are only available in .927 bushed pin size. Stock Ford pin size is .912. Just figured this out today.

If you're getting custom pistons made (which you'll need to do for 6.2" rods) you'll need to make sure you specify the .927 pin size. Note if you drop down to a 9.125" rod, you can get the .912 pin size.

I goofed, my custom pistons were made with the .912 size so I'm having to have new bushings pressed into my 6.2" rods and honed down to the .912" size.